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Proposed Law To Open Code ... In Cars
SEWilco writes: "A Minneapolis Star Tribune story points out that small repair shops say they lose money because they don't have access to car computer codes. These 'codes' are the diagnostic messages used by onboard computers to report problems and perform tests. Older designs only required a jumper wire to make a test light flash code patterns, certain dashboard actions to display codes, or a cheap display terminal from a parts store. Now the interfaces and code meanings are more complex and undocumented, so only auto dealer repair shops can easily find causes of some problems. U.S. Senate S.2617 and House H. R. 2735
would force auto manufacturers to share the codes. Sen. Wellstone says that manufacturers are acting like a cartel, blocking independent shops and car owners. But GM is being helpful."
Its funny, because its sort of related to the Ask Slashdot question about car performance tuning software a week ago. All these computerized systems have left cars incredibly complex to tune, repair, or modify.
Thankfully for some vehicle types, the enthusiast market has reverse engineered a lot of these protocols and codes. I've driven two different Audi's for the last three years, and spent an ungodly large amount of time and money tweaking and otherwise customizing them. Our enthusiast community has software like VAG-COM which can provide a suprisingly large amount of capability for Volkswagen, Audi's and other VAG-group cars. But now Audi (and presumably Volkswagen) is changing their protocols yet again, keeping things proprietary and secret. Thankfully, I'm sure they'll be reverse engineered yet again.
Even with the capabilities the software has, we're still faced with having very good documentation for what most "sensor" blocks are, but essentially none for what the "settings" blocks are. I can read anything I want, but without insider VAG knowledge, I can't recode a damn thing.
Amazingly through trial and error, people have even figured out how to reprogram basic functionality on their cars, like how the automatic transmissions shift.
I would love to see this law passed, but it doesn't help things much if its just emissions codes that have to be released.
This article here, even though it seems to be written for the person wanting to do their own maintenance, seems like it would have some handy information for small repair shops, as well.
It basically points out a few new programs and an physical interface that is designed for use with a laptop that can interpret many diagnostic codes. Just install the software, plug in your car and off you go.
Palaces, barricades, threats, meet promises
It would make car repairs so much easier... Which is exactly WHY the dealerships and manufacturers don't want any part of it. When your car starts breaking down a lot you either bring it to the dealership who has the only tool out to read the diagnostic info (dealership wins), or you buy a new car (SOME manufacturer wins).
I mean, if the manufacturers wanted to, it would be easy enough to put a text readout in the dashboard that would say "engine airflow sensor failure" or something similar. Even an error code that you could look up in the manual would be decent.
When I buy a new car, part of my shopping checklist will be to see if I can get a (most likely) 3rd party diagnostic plugin tool.
If more buyers demand onboard diagnostics to be usable by owners without expensive dealership computers, it might start forcing manufacturers to make the information easily accessible.
Reminds me of Harry Harrison's "Deathworld" trilogy (part 2). Give the buyers of the vehicles (in that case, steam wagons), the bare minimum of information to make servicing/repairing them impossible. At least the manufacturers aren't sealing the hoods and putting mustard gas inside to prevent repairs (yet).
"Nothing strengthens authority so much as silence." - Charles de Gaulle
Everyone saying this is some sort of victory for Open Source is an illiterate moron, or didn't read the article.
Most manufacturers (well, certainly most japanese ones, and I'm 99% certain all US..) have used ODB-II from 1996 onwards to allow a standardised interface to their diagnostic (and often tuning..) information. This is a standardised interface, and does exactly what is being requested here.
You can buy standard ODB-II scanners, or PC interface boards. You can read and write data values in real time, it is a great system.
Of course, it is only manditory in some US locations, and manufacturers are free to make non-ODB models for other markets. More pressure for them to all support this would be a good thing.
The biggest problem is that 90+% of 'normal' mechanics out there seem incapable of interpreting the complexities of modern fuel injection systems (I've helped design some, and even I find them hard to understand at times), more information does not always fix that problem! The number of times 'they' (your normal mechanic) fall back to a mode of just replacing bits at random to 'fix' a problem is high.
Back when I worked for Sun Electric (before they got bought by Snap-On Tools), one of the hardest parts of making diagnostic disks for the newer cars was getting access to the codes. Information about what the codes mean, and how to get them, are "trade secrets" jealously guarded by the big automotive manufacturers, so they can provide *their* repair facilities with the stuff they need to do the work, thus effectively gauranteeing them a captive market.
... while these "confidential" documents were copied. We ran a few years behind - not that it mattered much to Sun, because nobody takes a new, still-under-warranty car to Joe's Auto Repair & Bait Shop. Our customers got the cars after they went out of warranty, and by then we always had the codes, and hardware to allow them to be read.
We'd eventually get copies of the specs, by having some employee schmooze the people at the auto makers, and they'd conveniently leave the codes on their desks, and step out for a loooooong lunch
It'd be a whole lot less sleazy, though, if the car makers had to release the codes, and how to get them. I do see, however, that this could cause problems, as many of the datastreams are bi-directional, allowing you to change things while the engine is running, potentially causing a malfunction. I wonder if the lawmakers have considered that?
Lemon curry?
Closed source allows some companies to make money directly from the software they produce. If closed-source software producers can do this and still remain competitive, then good for them! BUT, it's only acceptable when they compete fairly in the market and if consumer choice is really there. In order for this to happen, we need open protocols.
I bet that part costs $10 to manufacture.
Actually, it probably only cost $5.00 max - the MAP sensor tends to be one of the most complicated sensors in a vehicle today, but even so it is typically only a stress gauge mounted in a custom body that is part of the air intake so that as air passes by, it exerts a force - typically a custom chip inside interprets this force and relays it back to the computer (in some manner).
But back to your assertion - my brother-in-law's truck was having problems, and one of the codes in the ODB-I system said that he needed a new throttle position sensor - we found it was a dealer part - the dealer wanted $50.00! Since he needed it, he bought it. But guess what this "sensor" was...
Yup, a 100K potentiometer with spring return to zero, in a custom molded body.
F'in car manufacturers...
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
I recently ran into something somewhat similar. I have an older Acura Legend that has had a couple of nagging problems I've been trying to track down. First is a ticking sound from somewhere within the mass of emissions-control components. The other was an occasional failure of the air conditioning to cool.
Anyway, I was doing some searching on Google and Google Groups, trying to see if someone had been down either of these paths before. I ended up, through an Acura enthusiasts site, at Alldata, a mechanics' and do-it-yourself'ers online technical reference subscription site.
Alldata had a list of Technical Service Belletins (TSBs) for my car -- these are notices sent from the manufacturer to dealers notifying them of, let's say "anomalies", in their product to be aware of. Sure enough, one was titled "BUZZING FROM EMISSIONS CONTROL BOX" and another was titled "A/C INTERMITTENTLY BLOWS WARM AIR". Jackpot!
All I had to do now was subscribe to Alldata for a (relatively) measly $25 a year to read the full text of the TSB. But wait! It turns out that of the world's car companies, Honda (who makes Acuras) and BMW (you know what they make) do not allow their TSBs to be distributed to the owners of their products.
I called Acura's toll-free number and complained, and sure enough, they said they only provide and authorize distribution of TSBs to dealers. Seems Honda likes to keep secret what they know is wrong with their cars, giving their dealers an advantage and making owners and independent mechanics suffer along rediscovering what's wrong with Honda's shoddy products.
Anyway, fortunately, I discovered an excellent service, Taylor Automotive Tech-Line which is a kind of a pay-per-incident tech support for mechanics and others. A simple web form and $20 later, and they emailed me TIFFs of the "secret" TSBs. Both of which were exactly what was wrong with my car!
Turns out the air conditioning problem was caused by a circuit board chock full of cold solder joints that had cracked. Ten minutes with a soldering iron and fresh solder corrected that manufacturing defect. The clicking sound was diagnosed in less than five minutes with the help of the TSB and fixed by replacing a $59 chunk of plastic (a "Constant Vacuum Control Valve").
Taylor Auto Tech's motto, by the way, is "We Fill In The Cracks On The Information Highway". Thankfully, someone is.
This is interesting. As a co-owner of a small independant garage that primarily works on GM, Ford, and Chrysler, I never had difficuly in obtaining error codes and how to pull them. Not only do the manufacturers provided manuals, but so do the aftermarket companies. Even getting a quicky codelist from the dealerships have never been difficult.
Now in the beginning of ECM's, all the sensors had different names, but the SAE has been working hard at even removing these obstacles. Also the auto industry is naturally working at producing standard error codes. Todays mechanics owe no loyatly to a dealership or brand (not a bad thing) Its much easier and cheaper if when another dealership or garage picks up a skilled mechanic they don't need to retrain them on that brands codes.
The automotive manufacturers know this and are migrating to common codes on their own. No need for the government to come in and add an additional expense to a process that is already happening.
What is happening is the liability of working on a car is becoming too expensive for small independant garages. This will be the death of mom and pop shops before nonstandard ecm codes are.
Gator/Claria is Spyware.
Here is an article about it.
And you think it is bad now...
I have very little doubt that as the technology matures, they will be able to build a car that ONLY runs on "dealer gas", which has certain molecular marker "tags" in the gasoline to identify it, custom sensors (similar to that used for DNA analysis, only MUCH faster) in the fuel lines, etc hooked up to the computer. When I mean "dealer gas", though, it will probably be a "cooperative" agreement between a gas company and the manufacturer - or maybe it will be something where all gas will work, but a "certain" gas will work "best" - literally.
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
Photocopier makers used to be notorious for this sort of thing (they still are, it's just that all new photocopiers are now laser printers :) ).
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
--Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
Apparently all mechanics that work on cars are named Joe.
/.!"
In a controversial move today, Slashdot.org opened a new can of worms with their posting of open source the error codes message. Joe's everywhere are in shock at finding out that they indeed missed their calling.
From Joe C in Paduka, Ky.: "When I found out I was supposed to be working in automotive repairs, I completely was flabergasted. I have always felt like I was missing something in my life, this can explain why. Thanks
From Joe E. Muntzenburger in Lake Okeechobee, FL.: "Man, when they told me I was supposed to be "Big Joe" down at my local auto-shop, I was stunned. I mean, being CEO of a large paper mill is great, but it can't compare to sweating underneath the hood of a car I don't understand!"
Mods: If you don't get it, then you haven't been reading the comments.
Sent from your iPad.
I work as a mechanic full time right now... and I worked as a technician for the past 4 years while I went to school (CS major working as a mechanic, go figure). Anyway, I've never had a problem with this mysterious hidden code problem. It's pretty simple, I use a handheld diagnostic scanner (Genisys scanner, it runs a Lynx realtime linux, has usb ports, pcmcia ports, ethernet, large color screen, pretty sweet)
it plugs into ALL cars made after 1996 (when the standard for OBDII came out) and most domestic cars with computers made before then. It tells me what code (or codes) have been set, and the data from the time it was set (RPM , engine temp, TPC value etc).
I then take the code, and usually it will say something along the lines of "PO0047 OXY Sensor Bank 2" (I made that code up, but it is very close to something which would actually occur)
Now, that tells me its an oxygen sensor in bank 2, no problem.
It seems to me all these "independent shops" just dont have the proper equipment(sidenote: I work at an independent shop). I have NEVER had a car give me a code that was "secret" and that I didnt have access to. Ofcourse, We have the proper equipment (the scanner was $6,000) and we also have several DVDS which , for each code in the computer give you a flow chart of what to check that could set that code.
It seems that the backwoods shops that people go to because they are cheap, dont have that equipment. Which is why noone understands that when we scan your computer for codes, we charge $55 just to check what the codes are for, not even to fix them.
So remember, when you get your car fixed and it costs a lot for something you think must be simple, remember that the mechanic is probably still paying for thousands of dollars in tools he needs for his job.
That was a long rant,but some of it was ontopic I guess.
1) Most manufacturers in fact do NOT provide any information about their ECM codings or diagnostic trouble codes. The ONLY published codes are typically the OBD codes, which everyone knows anyway. While we're all proud of you for having three systems to do that at home, clearly you've never used them for actually diagnosing real non-emissions related problems with your car, or you own an older-model (early OBD2) American car.
2) Also blatently incorrect. Companies absolutely hold this information close. In the example I used, Audi's tech manuals cost well over an order of magnitude more than the "consumer" level manuals cost. They are virtually impossible to purchase, anyway, if you're not certified by them. Not coincidentally, virtually all certified mechanics work for dealerships. The manuals that we end users have access to have the very bare minimum of information to perform very basic maintennance on the car. For example, say I want to flush my brake fluid. The procedure that the consumer manuals lists is very different from what the tech manuals list -- they don't even mention that you need to cycle the ABS controller using a VAG tool.
a) Yeah, thats a pretty common excuse stated by people who want to spout off and make people think they know what they're talking about
b) In most cases, this is also blatently wrong. The basic principles of how cars work have not changed much. No one needs to know how the internal code that runs the engine works, but knowing what all the errors it can tell you mean is pretty damn important. Knowing that changing your brake fluid the "old" way isn't doing the job completely is important to know too. This isn't stuff that "backyard" mechanics don't understand, this is stuff they are being deliberately not told. There's a big difference.
You know, you're right, there's a big problem with people who believe what they read. On here, though, there's a bigger problem with people who know a lot less than they think they know. Not that I'm pointing any fingers directly at you.
This is what makes too many laws. There is already a solution in place, the citizens and representatives just need to use them:
Fud #1:
"From a business standpoint, it's diluting our franchise" to make the codes public, he said. "A franchise becomes meaningless."
I'm not even sure what that means, but it sounds scary. We can't have meaningless franchises! The whole system will break down, and then who'll fix your car, huh?
Fud #2:
William Abraham, executive vice president of the Greater Metropolitan Automobile Dealers Association of Minnesota, said that manufacturers "want it to be repaired right the first time. . . . All things being equal, they'd rather have you repair them at a dealership because they know they can get the job done right."
Translation: independent mechanics are scam artists who will leave your car in worse shape than they found it. We can't have them using our codes, that would be like endorsing them to ruin your car and rip you off. And you don't want that, do you? Never mind, of course, that dealer mechanics work on a pay system where the less time they spend fixing your car, the more money they make, and the least profitable jobs go to the worst mechanics. Now that's a system you can endorse!
Fud #3:
Lambert, of the car dealers association, said there is no evidence that independent repair shops are being driven out of business, and he said that consumers enjoy "a wealth of options." He said that no products are more regulated than automobiles, adding that manufacturers must be concerned with safety equipment, recalls and warranties.
There's two in here. 1) These codes are hurting independents? Prove it! Sure pal, right after I prove global warming when Antartica becomes a beach resort. Stall long enough, and there won't be any independent mechanics around to raise a fuss. 2) We're regulated, so you can be sure the government is making sure the system is fair. Oh, please. See US vs. Microsoft.
Fud #3:
They have a right, I think, to restrict who has access to all of that technology," he said. "Otherwise, they're left with people they don't have any relationship with working on vehicles that they're still responsible for."
Of course the manufacturers don't have a relationship with the independent mechanics -- the manufacturers deliberately refused to establish one to keep you away from them! If they started sharing the codes, then they would have a relationship, now wouldn't they? And you know what? I have a better relationship with my mechanic than with the dealer! But apparently that relationship isn't important (or maybe it is, that's why the dealers are trying to break it).
Fud #3:
"The old garage mechanic is gone," he said. "In fact, the term 'mechanic' is gone. They're called technicians now. These people have to be very intelligent people. They're working on computers, and it's a high-tech industry.
Of course, the guy from the dealer association said that customers have lots of "options", and that there's no evidence the mechanics are in trouble. Now, having assuaged our concern for the little guy, this other dude says that they don't even exist anymore anyhow. Pay no attention to that shop that says "Main St. Auto Repair" down the block. He's just a gorilla in overalls that couldn't possibly understand how to read a number from a screen, and look it up in a book that says, "water pump is failing." That's way too sophistamacated for a dumb schmoe like that. Forget that he has twenty years of experience and the dealer guy is some kid fresh out of a technical school (see Unix admins vs. MSCEs).
How many times have you heard someone ask, "when your Linux server breaks, who are you gonna call?"
FUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFU DFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDF UDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUD FUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFU
"The old garage mechanic is gone," he said. "In fact, the term 'mechanic' is gone. They're called technicians now. These people have to be very intelligent people. They're working on computers, and it's a high-tech industry. . . . How does the guy that's in a little town of a population of 500 people get educated about the electronics of a $30,000 new automobile?
Could he be any more condescending?
Don't moderate flamebait as Troll. Know the difference or you will be Meta-moderated.
It is interesting how senators are willing to help the little auto mechanic, from being locked out by the large manufacturer, but not the little pc software developer from being locked out by the large software developers.
What is it? Is it because auto mechanics is an easier bussiness to understand? Are they better organized? Or is it because the small automechanic is an old institution.
Automakers make money by keeping this stuff secret. Why?
Dealerships do two types of repairs:
Customer Pay, and Warranty pay. As a way to protect consumers from questionable hourly billing, shops use a refrence book that tells them about how many hours a job will take. This book is how your estimate is determined (plus or minus whatever the service writer thinks they can get out of you)
What you're not told is that customer pay jobs
are often quoted TWICE the time alocated for warranty jobs. Very few mechanics like warranty jobs unless it's something that they have a really good shortcut around (i.e. A faster way to replace an engine than the shop manual shows)
Since automakers tell the dealerships how much they will pay for warranty jobs, Dealerships tend to make up for it by overcharging for customer pay jobs (via padding the quoted labor times)
So who gets screwed?
Not the automakers...
They sell more replacement parts when they can eliminate independant shops and
aftermarket parts. Independant shops tend to buy more aftermarket parts than OEM parts.
Not the Dealerships...
The dealership mechanics don't like to give up their "gravy" jobs like brakes & transmission services to Independant shops because those gravy jobs are what help them compensate for warranty work. Dearership owners feel the same way. For a given week, if mechanic 1 can replace 10 customer pay transmissions, and mechanic 2 can replace the same number of warranty transmissions, Mechanic 1 just earned the dealership twice as much and without all the BS warranty paperwork.
Independant shops get screwed.
Common sense. They can't compete because automakers are trying everything they can to get customers to come to them for all their needs. Independant shops must then rely on oil changes & mufflers to make their money, and there's too much competition there because it doesn't involve as much training. There isn't nearly as much money to be made changing oil as there can be for drivability & electrical stuff. The little shops must do a lot more little tests that the Non-OBD2 codes provide. How can a little shop compete?
Customers get screwed.
Mainly because competition is eliminated.
Don't expect to see any improvement either.
CNN headline news has been reporting that there will be a shortage of about 200,000 mechanics by the year 2010. Expect to see dealerships take advantage of that and watch labor rates and times skyrocket.
The problem here may not be just getting car manufacturers to divulge engine codes, but rather the maker of the ECU itself. For instance, Bosch produces ECUs or other engine components for virtually every car maker. Last year, Bosch had over $23x10^9 in sales in the automotive sector alone. Since nearly all European manufacturers rely on the Motronic ECU for higher-end engine applications, I'm sure that many Engine Control and Error Codes are similar amongst many different models and manufacturers.
I'm not entirely sure about whether or not the problem is the manufacturers' reluctance to supply codes. Perhaps they have a contract or something with the supplier of the ECUs to keep things hush-hush. Not only do the manufacturers make out by requiring service at their garage with their advanced tools, but the ECU supplier stays safe from the competition by not having all the details of their system easily divulged.
--- At my sig, unleash hell.
This is NOT about cars, this is about software and about interchange formats!
I hope this law makes it: this will be the grounds for asking for a law that forces Microsoft et al. to open their document format.
Today, independent programmers cannot perform services for their customers because large software makers hide the specifications for document formats. This means that an independent programmer cannot properly access and service the customer's database/spreadsheet/file without specialized tools that he would be required to buy from the software maker. This, in fact, amounts to some degree of cartelization, in so far as only programmers "licensed" by the software maker have access to these tools, in what amounts to a cartel. By effectively preventing independent programmers from obtaining revenue from services, this situation limits choice for consumers and harms many independent programmers, who are sometimes the sole financial support for their family.
This about it. This may be the way to go.
free the mallocs!
I have three related stories about the absence of good diagnostic information, both showing WHY the auto manufacturers should open the protocols.
First story. I was on vacation at the Grand Canyon's South rim, and the plan was to head to the North Rim. While that is only a few miles as the neutrino flies, it's about 150 miles by road. Furthurmore, the South Rim is pretty damn far from anything else. So, I get into my car (a 1997 Grand Marquis that had just had its 100kMile service) and lo and behold, the "Overdrive OFF" indicator starts flashing - a fault has been detected in the automatic transmission. Between having the "Check Engine" light come on or this, I'll pick the "Check Engine" light any day - you can troubleshoot an engine in the field, and generally most engine failures are "limp home" failures. A tranny failure tends to be a "walk home" moment.
After poking, prodding, and checking, the light goes out. No explaination. So, we head off for the North Rim. 80 miles from anywhere the tranny goes "thump", the light flashes, and I curse. I managed to get to civilization, rent a UHaul truck and car trailer, and tow my car home. The dealership tells me the ATF had started to break down - they flushed it and changed the filter.
Now, BECAUSE the South Rim is so far from anywhere, and because so many vehicles go there, there is a service shop there. Had the car been able to tell me "Clutch #2 slippage detected - possible fluid breakdown" I could have gone to the shop at the South Rim, had the fluid changed, and gone on without having my plans screwed up. Instead, I paid US$900 to tow my car home, and US$200 for the service.
Second story: A couple of months later, I was going to work. I turned the key, and the "Check Engine" light stayed on. I checked the oil, listens for strange noises, and said "Emissions problem, not serious, call the dealer." Sure enough, the dealership read the codes, and said "Transient failure to pull a vacuum on the fuel tank vapor recovery - It's not showing now. Keep an eye on it. And damn guy, but according to this you've hit the rev limiter on this thing! How fast were you GOING?" Cost: $150. Had I been able to read the codes, I could have cleared it and kept an eye on it.
Third story: A few weeks later, I was heading home, pulled out from a stop, and the tranny said "bang" and the "Overdrive OFF" indicator began to blink. It turns out the fluid had gone bad BECAUSE the #2 clutch had failed. US$1300 later, I have a rebuild in place. I took the car to a tranny shop nearby, rather than the dealership. As I was demonstrating the failure to the mechanic (at that point, it was still intermittant) I commented "Yeah, I know how hard it is to troubleshoot intermittant failures - I am a software engineer". His immediate response: "Maybe you could write some software for us that would work on all of these cars!"
Conclusion: There is a clear harm to the consumer by the practices of the auto manufacturers, who together are acting in an anti-competitive and monopolistic fashion. I hope we CAN make them play nice (imagine a nice GTK front-end for diagnostics....)
www.eFax.com are spammers
http://www.obd-2.com/ is your answer. About $150 and you can interface with any of the 3 main OBD-II interfacing protocols. Downloadable updates. Error code sets for your manufacturer. Tons of information. And the author has a very impressive resume when it comes to automotive and computer diagnostic design!
:) Software has a hard time transforming into a torque wrench!
Mix this with a little bit of community-brainstorming on an automotive message board, and most car problems can be solved.Not having the tools to fix something is a whole other issue
.... um, i lost you after "0110100001101001".