Proposed Law To Open Code ... In Cars

SEWilco writes: "A Minneapolis Star Tribune story points out that small repair shops say they lose money because they don't have access to car computer codes. These 'codes' are the diagnostic messages used by onboard computers to report problems and perform tests. Older designs only required a jumper wire to make a test light flash code patterns, certain dashboard actions to display codes, or a cheap display terminal from a parts store. Now the interfaces and code meanings are more complex and undocumented, so only auto dealer repair shops can easily find causes of some problems. U.S. Senate S.2617 and House H. R. 2735 would force auto manufacturers to share the codes. Sen. Wellstone says that manufacturers are acting like a cartel, blocking independent shops and car owners. But GM is being helpful."

Comments

This is a good thing

[i_want_you_to_throw_]

Finally an open source analogy your grandmother can understand

Re:This is a good thing

[sc00p18]

Finally an open source analogy your grandmother can understand

Actually, I prefer to think of this as an analogy my redneck friends can understand. When talking to my grandmother I relate to cooking: secret recipes vs. sharing and modifying recipes with others. Giving people something to relate to is half the battle!

Re:This is a good thing

[Dwonis]

It's not really an open source issue, it's an issue of open protocols, which is far more important than open source.

Closed source allows some companies to make money directly from the software they produce. If closed-source software producers can do this and still remain competitive, then good for them! BUT, it's only acceptable when they compete fairly in the market and if consumer choice is really there. In order for this to happen, we need open protocols.

Re:This is a good thing

[afidel]

Actually these companies get the power of patents to protect their IP, in return we should be getting the information to use their inventions.

Re:This is a good thing

[doorbot.com]

It's not really an open source issue, it's an issue of open protocols, which is far more important than open source.

So you're saying this is more akin to the SMB/CIFS issue... in which case I'd have to agree with you. Actually it seems very similar, especially if what some of the previous posters' comments are accurate; Honda only sells the manuals to their dealers/mechanics... but I'll bet you don't have to sign an NDA (yet) or some other restrictive contract limiting your ability to disseminate their proprietary information.

Re:This is a good thing

[God! Awful]

Finally an open source analogy your grandmother can understand

Yeah, despite the fact that it's a ridiculous analogy. Analogies don't prove anything. They just make you more convinced of your beliefs, whether they're right or wrong.

Don't you think the huge difference in proportion is relevant? When you buy a car, you do so with a 100% guarantee that the car will require service, and that service is a significant portion of the total cost of ownership of the car. The average consumer who buys an off-the-shelf software product (e.g. a game) will probably never need support. In the case of a more major purchase (e.g. an OS/Office suite), you get free updates off the web. The average consumer doesn't pay to have someone customize their OS for them. If they're technically challenged, they might pay someone to install it for them.

-a

Re:This is a good thing

[ColaMan]

It's not that cars are *unserviceable* , it's the fact that cars these days are very reliable. Gone are the days when you had to change the oil and filter and check the points every 1000 miles.

What with EFI and EGO sensors, cars are pretty much self tuning and will put up with all sorts of crap. They can now run for ludicrous distances without major repairs - you can get 150,000 km from a car and only have to remember to change the oil and put on a set of tyres occasionally. The buick-derived motor in my Australian-built car has seen over 350,000 kilometers, and still contains all it's major components and doesn't blow smoke. The bits that have worn out (water pump, battery, alternator) do not require a diagnostic computer to diagnose.

Speaking as an auto electrician, yes, your company is pretty much screwed if you come across a late model volvo that's fried its crank angle sensor, and you don't have the reader to figure it out. Speaking as the person who drives their car however, it's still a damn sight better then when you had to set the mixture on your carby for winter and pull a little knob marked "choke" to get your car to start.

I saw a quote the other day (from fortune, no less), it went :
"When all else fails, pour a pint of guinness into the gas tank, shout 'God Save The Queen!', and pull the starter briskly.
- MG A series workshop manual"

It think it still sums it up nicely.

Re:This is a good thing

[ichimunki]

I wonder when Senator Paul Wellstone will stop playing at being a common-people's liberal. I don't buy a word of it. This particular issue is an obvious case of a senator using his current seat in office to generate press releases that amount to little more than free campaign advertising (he's up against Republican Norm Coleman, a GWB anointee, this November). Since recent Census information indicates that Minnesota is one of the most car-happy states (i.e. higher car ownership per capita), this sort of press plays right into the theme of small business and "the people". The StarTribune is extremely pro-Wellstone, DFL/Democrat partisan-- so of course they're willing to print such a slanted article.

That said, if you want full information about your car, buy your car from a manufacturer who will give it to you (or your mechanic at least). There is no reason for government laws to mandate the release of this information into the public domain. If you really care about it, vote with your pocketbook. Most Americans don't seem to think like this though. Oddly, a sense of personal responsibility is usually only applied to others in American discourse. Whenever someone asks us what we're doing, we spout nonsense like "I shouldn't have to ... it should already be like that .... why should I clean up someone else's mess ... blah blah blah".

To recap: this is a campaign stunt. Consumers hold the power here, but they have to take some responsibility for how they use it (personally, I'd wish they'd not buy cars at all and take the bus or bike). There is no legitimate reason for government to make a law forcing this information into the public domain. You don't have a right to a car, nor to information about cars. If you don't like it, shop somewhere else... or don't shop at all.

Karma Whoring:

[bentini]

CNN article on similar subject is here. It's pretty good and interesting.

Basically, they're leveraging their IP. I say good for them, but most people here will probably want to skewer them.

People rarely think about this kind of thing before purchasing a car. Maybe they should.

Re:Karma Whoring:

[jethro200]

People rarely think about this kind of thing before purchasing a car. Maybe they should.

Think about what? What are they supposed to do - buy a car without and onboard computer? or maybe buy a car from all those car companies who willingly make their codes available for anybody? or they could just not get those parts of their car fixed. this is pretty much out of the consumers hands, other than writing their congressperson to get the bill passed.

Re:Karma Whoring:

[nathanm]

or maybe buy a car from all those car companies who willingly make their codes available for anybody?

Yeah, buy American! The article mentions that GM is the best, when it comes to sharing the codes. A previous poster said he works as a mechanic and codes from the big 3 (GM, Ford, & Chrysler) were readily available.

If the 3 of the largest auto makers in the world release the codes, why can't the others? It obviously isn't helping their business grow.

Re:Karma Whoring:

[zangdesign]

I really don't think the car market is based on whether or not the code for the fuel-injection chips is open or not.

People buy cars for the look, the comfort, the convenience, the capacity, or the performance. When was the last time you heard anyone ask if the diagnostic computer code was available?

The car market shrinks and grows based on the economy. As the economy thrives, then the big ticket cars become popular. When it shrinks, buyers get frugal and buy lower-priced cars.

Re:Karma Whoring:

[bigdavex]

I really don't think the car market is based on whether or not the code for the fuel-injection chips is open or not.

People buy cars for the look, the comfort, the convenience, the capacity, or the performance. When was the last time you heard anyone ask if the diagnostic computer code was available?

Not specifically, no. But people are aware that maintenance and parts for some cars are more expensive, in a general sort of way.

Re:Karma Whoring:

[markmoss]

maybe buy a car from all those car companies who willingly make their codes available for anybody?

Exactly.

Find a good independent repair shop. Get to know the guy in charge and ask him about repairability before buying any car. It's not just the codes (and the real situation for most makes is not nearly as bad as that article suggests), but also things like spark plugs positioned so they have to pull the engine or cut a hole in the fender to change them... Things like this can make thousands of dollars difference over the life of a car.

And if you change your mind about buying a car because of unpublished codes or any other maintainability issue, please write a letter to the dealer and the president of the auto company expressing your displeasure. Auto companies choose to save $5.00 per car by some shortcut that will eventually cost every owner $500 in repair shop costs because they think we won't find out about it. Let them know they're wrong.

And if the pressure to keep the diagnostic codes secret comes from the dealers, so their repair shop doesn't have to compete - they don't make nearly as much on repairs as on selling cars, so let them think they're losing sales, and they'll reverse the pressure real fast.

Re:Karma Whoring:

[fishbowl]

> When was the last time you heard anyone ask if
> the diagnostic computer code was available?

That one example might sound silly, but when you're negotiating with a car dealer, it's questions like this that give you power! They
can't answer these questions, they either don't know the answer (and don't even know how to make one up!) or they are expressly forbidden from answering. That gives you all kinds of power over them! They are prepared for you to ask specific types of questions for which they have rehearsed answers. They operate under a principle that influences your reaction to what they say and do. If you can throw them off their program, you have the opportunity to negotiate in ways that you do not have when they are in control. So, think creatively; think of things they haven't been asked 30 times today. Then make sure they understand that the answers are influencing you to walk away without signing a loan paper...

Re:Karma Whoring:

[zangdesign]

Let me know if it works. I'm not going to go out of my way to make a car salesman feel foolish.

Preventing antitrust?

[3seas]

Or being able to prevent an accident?
Hmmmmmm...

I'm an optimistic

[boa13]

Step 1: Wait for this law to be voted and put into effect.
Step 2: Start pushing for a law that mandates opening code... everywhere. Say that it prevents small independant consultants from repairing Microsoft ware.

I own an Acura RSX..

[windex]

It has alot of tweakable settings, none of which I can preform myself but if I give the kid who works for the big bad car dealer $10 he'll do whatever I want.

Next car I buy, I will demand open specifications for, I'm getting tired of paying the kid to do what should have come with the car that I own.

I'm sure as fuck not signing a EULA when I buy my car not to violate its software.

This has always driven me nuts...

[tgd]

Its funny, because its sort of related to the Ask Slashdot question about car performance tuning software a week ago. All these computerized systems have left cars incredibly complex to tune, repair, or modify.

Thankfully for some vehicle types, the enthusiast market has reverse engineered a lot of these protocols and codes. I've driven two different Audi's for the last three years, and spent an ungodly large amount of time and money tweaking and otherwise customizing them. Our enthusiast community has software like VAG-COM which can provide a suprisingly large amount of capability for Volkswagen, Audi's and other VAG-group cars. But now Audi (and presumably Volkswagen) is changing their protocols yet again, keeping things proprietary and secret. Thankfully, I'm sure they'll be reverse engineered yet again.

Even with the capabilities the software has, we're still faced with having very good documentation for what most "sensor" blocks are, but essentially none for what the "settings" blocks are. I can read anything I want, but without insider VAG knowledge, I can't recode a damn thing.

Amazingly through trial and error, people have even figured out how to reprogram basic functionality on their cars, like how the automatic transmissions shift.

I would love to see this law passed, but it doesn't help things much if its just emissions codes that have to be released.

Re:This has always driven me nuts...

[British]

Dude, I have a Robert Bently manual for my Triumph Spitfire. Mind you, it's a primitive car that's easy to fix, but...

The Bentley manual for it is about 99% "remove and refit" for parts on the car. There's some diagnostic stuff, but the Haynes manual(lists just about everything to do for it, rebuild engine, etc) compliments it.

I wouldn't call it 100% useful unless you are a gearhead.

Re:This has always driven me nuts...

[M-G]

Usually what Bentley publishes are the factory manuals, which assume a certain level of diagnostic and mechanical competence, so they just give you the important details specific to that car. (At least this is the case with the British-Leyland era manuals.)

The Haynes books are written for the home mechanic, so go into much more detail. Unfortunately, Haynes sometimes gets things wrong, so it's always good to have the factory book handy as well.

Re:This has always driven me nuts...

[jafac]

. . . and to think I can tune my 30-year old smog-exempt Aircooled VW with a screwdriver.

Some stock setups, without catalytic converters, tuned properly, can still pass California's smog inspection.
Some stock setups can still get 30 miles per gallon of regular unleaded gasoline.
Some *modified* setups can crank out upwards of 250 hp from a 2 litre four cylinder aircooled engine, drive a beetle, or karmann ghia upwards of 120 mph, and 0-60 in under 7 seconds.

My 72 karmann ghia has a 1.6 liter Porsche 912 engine that gets 25 miles per gallon, 0-60 in 8.5 seconds, tops out at 110+ (I don't dare take that body any faster without an air-dam, because the body produces too much lift). Doesn't need coolant, doesn't need no chips, I set the points and valve clearance and change the oil every 3000 miles, and it just plain runs.

The Stock VW engine can be overhauled; rebuilt, for under $500. A single person can remove the engine with a simple floor jack.

These cars DO have their limitations, but a lot of us Air Cooled enthusiasts often wonder whether there's been any real progress in the auto industry since 1973.

Re:This has always driven me nuts...

[adolf]

...and to think my car tunes itself, as I drive down the highway.

Some stock setups, with catalytic converters, in a state of complete negligence, can still pass Canifornia's smog inspection.
Some stock setups can still get 30 miles per gallon of regular unleaded gasoline.
Some *modified* setups can crank out upwards of 300 hp from a 2.4 litre four cylinder watercooled engine, drive a car that seats 5 upwards of 150 mph, and 0-60 in under 7 seconds.

My '95 Beretta has a 2.2 liter Chevrolet engine that gets >25 miles per gallon, 0-60 in about 8.5 seconds, and hits its in-built governer hard at 113MPH (I'd take it faster if it'd let me). It doesn't drink coolant, doesn't need chips, I pour oil into it when I feel like it, and it just plain runs. I did replace the (factory) plugs at around 100k miles (the horror!), after it began stumbling on cold, wet mornings. Now it starts within a couple of rotations, even when below 0.

The Stock Chevy engine can be overhauled; rebuilt, for under $500, as with most other single-cam 4-bangers. It does take a team of seven midgets and a step stool to remove it, however.

These cars DO have their limitations, but a lot of us driving modern, bone-stock, base-model economy grocery getters often wonder whether the old codgers who harp on about the beauty of an air-cooled engines left what remained of their brain in 1972 on the head of a pin, stuck to a big hairy resin ball, on the coffee table right next to Bertha (the plumbing store bong), a pile of dusty-looking sandwich bags, and two empty three-peice pull-tab cans of PBR.

Hack Your Car

[Kargan]

This article here, even though it seems to be written for the person wanting to do their own maintenance, seems like it would have some handy information for small repair shops, as well.
It basically points out a few new programs and an physical interface that is designed for use with a laptop that can interpret many diagnostic codes. Just install the software, plug in your car and off you go.

It ougghta be a law!

[Nogami_Saeko]

It would make car repairs so much easier... Which is exactly WHY the dealerships and manufacturers don't want any part of it. When your car starts breaking down a lot you either bring it to the dealership who has the only tool out to read the diagnostic info (dealership wins), or you buy a new car (SOME manufacturer wins).

I mean, if the manufacturers wanted to, it would be easy enough to put a text readout in the dashboard that would say "engine airflow sensor failure" or something similar. Even an error code that you could look up in the manual would be decent.

When I buy a new car, part of my shopping checklist will be to see if I can get a (most likely) 3rd party diagnostic plugin tool.

If more buyers demand onboard diagnostics to be usable by owners without expensive dealership computers, it might start forcing manufacturers to make the information easily accessible.

Reminds me of Harry Harrison's "Deathworld" trilogy (part 2). Give the buyers of the vehicles (in that case, steam wagons), the bare minimum of information to make servicing/repairing them impossible. At least the manufacturers aren't sealing the hoods and putting mustard gas inside to prevent repairs (yet).

Re:It ougghta be a law!

[lrichardson]

"I mean, if the manufacturers wanted to, it would be easy enough to put a text readout in the dashboard that would say "engine airflow sensor failure" or something similar. Even an error code that you could look up in the manual would be decent."

Actually, some cars have this. Got a Malibu ... turn the key slightly differently on start up, and watch the dashboard lights, then cross reference that with the manual (Chilton's, IIRC, not the manufacturers). Yeah, I'd love to have it display "Ignition coil #3 is f$cked", rather than what amounts to a binary display, but, then again, it keeps casual tinkerers out from under the hood ... and, IMHO, there's a whole lot more stuff now (compared to a decade back) that is not user servicable.

The other sad thing is that computer diagnostics are replacing brains. Take the alternator ... 99% of the time, it's the diode pack. But garages love to go the long route ... which involves more parts, more time, and thus more money. One car I've looked at was quite clear on the error message (Dead battery and/or bad ground). Well, at least it had the right system (electrical), but it took a pair of 25 cent brushes (in the alternator) to fix it.

Keeping the error codes secret also hides another problem ... a good percentage of the time, the error message is just plain wrong!

Re:It ougghta be a law!

[karnal]

I'm not wanting to start a fight, but what exactly on newer cars isn't user serviceable? Other than the computer (buy a new one, don't even bother to repair 75% of the time) etc...?

Granted, for larger work, I have the work done on my 95 chevy by the dealer. But I assure you, with the right amount of time, I can do anything the certified dealer technicians can.

Re:It ougghta be a law!

[dasunt]

With older cars (not sure about newer), a paperclip shorting out two pins in the diagnostic connector and the engine trouble light can be used to pull trouble codes from the vehicle.

Please note

[MisterBlister]

They are talking about what amounts to ERROR CODES here. Not SOURCE CODE. Mechanics want to know what certain error messages mean, they don't want the fucking source code. How many mechanics are going to fix bugs in a RTOS car? And if they had access would you even want to drive your car knowing that "Big Joe" from down at Jiffy Lube reworked some of the brake logic?

Everyone saying this is some sort of victory for Open Source is an illiterate moron, or didn't read the article.

Re:Please note

[Tri0de]

Not an illiterate moron; just hoping that for once the confusion can work *FOR* us. keeping information proprietary is evil, even deception lies and confusion are good and just weapons against any who would withold information from anyone else.

Re:Please note

[TheFrood]

They are talking about what amounts to ERROR CODES here. Not SOURCE CODE. Mechanics want to know what certain error messages mean, they don't want the fucking source code. How many mechanics are going to fix bugs in a RTOS car? And if they had access would you even want to drive your car knowing that "Big Joe" from down at Jiffy Lube reworked some of the brake logic?

Everyone saying this is some sort of victory for Open Source is an illiterate moron, or didn't read the article.

It's not a victory for Open Source per se, but it's a similar issue. It's the idea of openness versus closedness. Does the consumer benefit more if the protocols for talking to car computers are kept closed so that only the manufacturer can perform repairs? Or is the consumer better off if his car's computer has open protocols that allow any competent mechanic to diagnose and repair the car?

There's a very direct parallel to the open-source-vs-proprietary-software debate. If this issue gets a lot of publicity, it'll make more people think about then open-versus-closed issue. That will make it easier to explain the benefits of open source to non-technical people.

Wasn't it Bob Young who asked "Would you buy a car with the hood welded shut?"

TheFrood

Re:Please note

[tswinzig]

And if they had access would you even want to drive your car knowing that "Big Joe" from down at Jiffy Lube reworked some of the brake logic?

That's insulting to smart automotive technicians everywhere, and there are plenty.

It's like saying all programmers are dumb, just because there are some dumb programmers in the world.

Re:Please note

[Paul Komarek]

Not to excuse the other guy, but I expect the real issue is whether you want to drive a car run by source code that hasn't been *thoroughly* tested. I can't be sure that the auto manufacturers *thoroughly* test their code, either. However, the manufacturer has more time between writing the code and releasing it than the mechanic did.

On the other hand if auto manufacturers were run the same way software manufacturers seem to be, I'd be less confident that any serious testing had been done at all. =-)

-Paul komarek

Re:Please note

[afidel]

Not to excuse the other guy, but I expect the real issue is whether you want to drive a car run by source code that hasn't been *thoroughly* tested. I can't be sure that the auto manufacturers *thoroughly* test their code, either. However, the manufacturer has more time between writing the code and releasing it than the mechanic did.

Every serious car enthusiest that I know already does so, in the guise of performance enhancing EPROM's. They get chips that mod their fuel injection ratios, throttle points, and even automatic transmission settings. While this is not really code, more data tables to feed the code, incorrect values can still have the same effect as broken code.

Re:Please note

[Paul Komarek]

To prevent confusion, by "*thoroughly* test" I would like to mean drive 1,000,000 miles in mixed city/highway conditions and a variety of weather, coupled with synthetic testing for extremes and corner-cases. That said, I probably have to live with something like testing 100 cars for 10,000 miles, at least one or two of which had special testing done. Even then I might be pressing my luck.

Not to disparage the enthusiast, but it seems very likely they have fewer than 100 cars with the same computer. =-)

-Paul Komarek

Re:Please note

[Paul Komarek]

A second response: but you have a good point -- if they're using the same mod chips that other enthusiasts are using, then you might have more than 100 cars driving 10,000 miles. That said, you might (or might not =-) lack the systematic synthetic tests like crash tests.

-Paul Komarek

Re:Please note

[afidel]

Well for edge cases I can almost guarentee that the enthusiests test them a lot more than the manufacturers. The enthusiest market tends to wring 110% performance out of their cars and if it doesn't break in their use then it is unlikely to break for "normal" people.

Re:Please note

[liquidsin]

Would you even want to drive your car knowing that "CowboyNeal" over at VA/Linux had been tinkering with your airbags? He wasn't making the point that "Big Joe" was unintelligent, only that he most likely wasn't qualified to be rewriting code for your car's braking system.

ODB-II

[thesupraman]

Most manufacturers (well, certainly most japanese ones, and I'm 99% certain all US..) have used ODB-II from 1996 onwards to allow a standardised interface to their diagnostic (and often tuning..) information. This is a standardised interface, and does exactly what is being requested here.

You can buy standard ODB-II scanners, or PC interface boards. You can read and write data values in real time, it is a great system.

Of course, it is only manditory in some US locations, and manufacturers are free to make non-ODB models for other markets. More pressure for them to all support this would be a good thing.

The biggest problem is that 90+% of 'normal' mechanics out there seem incapable of interpreting the complexities of modern fuel injection systems (I've helped design some, and even I find them hard to understand at times), more information does not always fix that problem! The number of times 'they' (your normal mechanic) fall back to a mode of just replacing bits at random to 'fix' a problem is high.

Re:ODB-II

[gmhowell]

I think you mean OBD-II. It is an emissions requirement for all 1996 and newer autos and light trucks sold in the US. It largely has to do with ensuring that the emissions controls of the car (O2 sensor, cat, etc) are working properly. Problem is, it is possible for a non-OEM to make a part that, while it doesn't bugger up the emissions, it does bugger up OBD-II stuff, making the car think there is a problem (when it comes to emissions, running better than it should is just as bad as running not as well).

Re:ODB-II

[jred]

The biggest problem is that 90+% of 'normal' mechanics out there seem incapable of interpreting the complexities of modern fuel injection systems (I've helped design some, and even I find them hard to understand at times), more information does not always fix that problem! The number of times 'they' (your normal mechanic) fall back to a mode of just replacing bits at random to 'fix' a problem is high.

Hey I can do that... No, what they do is decide that since they don't know what the error codes mean, it must be a problem with the computer. "Oh, your brakes are pulsing? Hmm, must be the computer, you know that controls the antilock brakes, don't you?" Or, "your headlights don't work? Must be the computer..."

Ok, I'm exaggerating (how the f* DO you spell that??). But you know what? It doesn't bother me any more. I've got my pimp-ass '79 Caddy Coupe Deville, w/ 7.0L V8. Sure I get ~10mpg, but it'll get up and go. Talk about your sleeper :) Plus, it's pimp, did I mention that???

Memphis, Making Easy Money Pimpin Hoes In Style :)

Re:ODB-II

[cdrudge]

The VIN is fake but can anyone tell me where the vehicle was made and by who?
. . .
22:27:12.907: Vin: 6H8VTK69FYL581365

It was made by Holden's Motor Company in Australia around 2000 in Elizabeth...maybe. I'm not too sure about the city.

This would be great!

[MsWillow]

Back when I worked for Sun Electric (before they got bought by Snap-On Tools), one of the hardest parts of making diagnostic disks for the newer cars was getting access to the codes. Information about what the codes mean, and how to get them, are "trade secrets" jealously guarded by the big automotive manufacturers, so they can provide *their* repair facilities with the stuff they need to do the work, thus effectively gauranteeing them a captive market.

We'd eventually get copies of the specs, by having some employee schmooze the people at the auto makers, and they'd conveniently leave the codes on their desks, and step out for a loooooong lunch ... while these "confidential" documents were copied. We ran a few years behind - not that it mattered much to Sun, because nobody takes a new, still-under-warranty car to Joe's Auto Repair & Bait Shop. Our customers got the cars after they went out of warranty, and by then we always had the codes, and hardware to allow them to be read.

It'd be a whole lot less sleazy, though, if the car makers had to release the codes, and how to get them. I do see, however, that this could cause problems, as many of the datastreams are bi-directional, allowing you to change things while the engine is running, potentially causing a malfunction. I wonder if the lawmakers have considered that?

Re:This would be great!

[hey!]

This is interesting, because it points out a difference between engineering and management culture. If the management level knew how much informal cooperation goes on between their engineers and those working for other companies, they'd probably have a fit and issue a stack of policies to limit this.

Worst $80 I ever spent on my car...

[tgd]

I've never found a damn thing of use in the S4 Bentley manual. It has minimal documentation of ECM codings, and no way to search by DTC. The one or two things I've had to look up how to do in there have been wrong, as well. Maybe VW ones are better...

I bet it costs less...

[cr0sh]

I bet that part costs $10 to manufacture.

Actually, it probably only cost $5.00 max - the MAP sensor tends to be one of the most complicated sensors in a vehicle today, but even so it is typically only a stress gauge mounted in a custom body that is part of the air intake so that as air passes by, it exerts a force - typically a custom chip inside interprets this force and relays it back to the computer (in some manner).

But back to your assertion - my brother-in-law's truck was having problems, and one of the codes in the ODB-I system said that he needed a new throttle position sensor - we found it was a dealer part - the dealer wanted $50.00! Since he needed it, he bought it. But guess what this "sensor" was...

Yup, a 100K potentiometer with spring return to zero, in a custom molded body.

F'in car manufacturers...

Re:I bet it costs less...

[drinkypoo]

Er, I hate to reply to myself but I should comment that MAF (mass air flow) sensors are usually the most expensive to buy... a generic O2 sensor costs about $60. Most MAF sensors (not MAP) are $150 or more.

Something Similar...

[dmadole]

I recently ran into something somewhat similar. I have an older Acura Legend that has had a couple of nagging problems I've been trying to track down. First is a ticking sound from somewhere within the mass of emissions-control components. The other was an occasional failure of the air conditioning to cool.

Anyway, I was doing some searching on Google and Google Groups, trying to see if someone had been down either of these paths before. I ended up, through an Acura enthusiasts site, at Alldata, a mechanics' and do-it-yourself'ers online technical reference subscription site.

Alldata had a list of Technical Service Belletins (TSBs) for my car -- these are notices sent from the manufacturer to dealers notifying them of, let's say "anomalies", in their product to be aware of. Sure enough, one was titled "BUZZING FROM EMISSIONS CONTROL BOX" and another was titled "A/C INTERMITTENTLY BLOWS WARM AIR". Jackpot!

All I had to do now was subscribe to Alldata for a (relatively) measly $25 a year to read the full text of the TSB. But wait! It turns out that of the world's car companies, Honda (who makes Acuras) and BMW (you know what they make) do not allow their TSBs to be distributed to the owners of their products.

I called Acura's toll-free number and complained, and sure enough, they said they only provide and authorize distribution of TSBs to dealers. Seems Honda likes to keep secret what they know is wrong with their cars, giving their dealers an advantage and making owners and independent mechanics suffer along rediscovering what's wrong with Honda's shoddy products.

Anyway, fortunately, I discovered an excellent service, Taylor Automotive Tech-Line which is a kind of a pay-per-incident tech support for mechanics and others. A simple web form and $20 later, and they emailed me TIFFs of the "secret" TSBs. Both of which were exactly what was wrong with my car!

Turns out the air conditioning problem was caused by a circuit board chock full of cold solder joints that had cracked. Ten minutes with a soldering iron and fresh solder corrected that manufacturing defect. The clicking sound was diagnosed in less than five minutes with the help of the TSB and fixed by replacing a $59 chunk of plastic (a "Constant Vacuum Control Valve").

Taylor Auto Tech's motto, by the way, is "We Fill In The Cracks On The Information Highway". Thankfully, someone is.

Re:Something Similar...

[Marasmus]

Another place that's good to look is automotiveforums.com - the honda/acura crew (at least 50 regulars) are extremely active and very helpful :)

Codes

[mrycar]

This is interesting. As a co-owner of a small independant garage that primarily works on GM, Ford, and Chrysler, I never had difficuly in obtaining error codes and how to pull them. Not only do the manufacturers provided manuals, but so do the aftermarket companies. Even getting a quicky codelist from the dealerships have never been difficult.

Now in the beginning of ECM's, all the sensors had different names, but the SAE has been working hard at even removing these obstacles. Also the auto industry is naturally working at producing standard error codes. Todays mechanics owe no loyatly to a dealership or brand (not a bad thing) Its much easier and cheaper if when another dealership or garage picks up a skilled mechanic they don't need to retrain them on that brands codes.

The automotive manufacturers know this and are migrating to common codes on their own. No need for the government to come in and add an additional expense to a process that is already happening.

What is happening is the liability of working on a car is becoming too expensive for small independant garages. This will be the death of mom and pop shops before nonstandard ecm codes are.

Re:Codes

[nathanm]

This is interesting. As a co-owner of a small independant garage that primarily works on GM, Ford, and Chrysler, I never had difficuly in obtaining error codes and how to pull them. Not only do the manufacturers provided manuals, but so do the aftermarket companies.

The article mentions that European manufacturers aren't as open with their proprietary codes, with the specific example of an air-bag light on a BMW. The owner brought it in to a local garage to get it fixed, but was refered to a dealer as the codes aren't available. He had to drive 70 miles to the nearest BMW dealership.

My friend had a similar problem: the idiot light (service engine) was on, so he went to a mechanic to have a look at it, who found nothing wrong. He then talked to a dealer that said it automatically comes on at 60,000 miles, and for $60 they would give it a tune-up & the light would go out. Instead, my friend just put black electrical tape over the light & ignored it.

Re:Codes

[SerpentMage]

I would not say that this is appalling. This is called regular service on your vehicle. If you do not realize it, but if your car is not regularly serviced then the warrenty is null and void. Check the fine print. Regular servicing is a good thing to do on your car. Keeps it running well.

Re:Codes

[cdrudge]

This is not about getting regular service though. I'm a shade tree mechanic. I can replace 6 spark plugs, an air cleaner and a PCV valve (a typical "tune-up" these days) for a lot less then $60. Even if I do the "tune-up" religiously I will always get the little service light. The manufacturer assumes that I will never work on the car so they just set up the light to come on every 60,000 miles whether it is needed or not.

Re:Codes

[M-G]

Service interval counters have been around for years. Nothing new there. They are usually for items that have a limited life and impact emissions, such as O2 sensors.

On more recent cars, the EPA requires an emission warranty that exceeds the life of some emission control components. On our Ford Ranger, for example, the PCV valve is to be replaced at 60K, which is done for free by the dealer. (No check engine light triggered by mileage though.) So it's very possible the 60K light that this car had was for such a component that should have been replaced for free, but the dealer wanted to get some more money out of them...

Re:Codes

[nathanm]

This is called regular service on your vehicle. If you do not realize it, but if your car is not regularly serviced then the warrenty is null and void.

This was a few years ago. At the time, nobody offered a 60,000 mi warranty (only a few offer them now). Besides, I'm not against regular maintenance, just being forced to use a single maintainer.

Regular servicing is a good thing to do on your car. Keeps it running well.

I just want a choice where I take it for maintenance. If I own a car, I should be able to take it anywhere, even if it voids the warranty.

Re:Codes

[cdrudge]

No arguments here. The idea that you are REQUIRED to pay a dealership to reset the light is silly and not necessary. I don't know about newer cars, but the pre-OBD-II GM vehicles would trigger the light and remain on until the negative terminal of the battery was pulled for 30 seconds or so. This I think was ideal since it would still remind our 80 year old aunt Ethels to have the car serviced, but us shade tree mechanics could still reset it.

Re:Codes

[SerpentMage]

I just want a choice where I take it for maintenance. If I own a car, I should be able to take it anywhere, even if it voids the warranty.

Point taken and accepted. True...

Open code?

[anthony_dipierro]

Wouldn't the equivalent of forcing them to open the code be to force them to hand over the patents and specifications on their assembly equipment?

Re:Open code?

[rusty0101]

Um, by definition of Patent, if their assembly equipment is patented, then it is open. (of course the fact that it is patented means that they get to charge other people using that same assembly equipment royalties...)

-Rusty

Re:Won't Work

[fizban]

M$ has veto power? Oh, right, the repubs are in charge now.

You think ODB-II is bad? Check out ODB-III!

[cr0sh]

Here is an article about it.

And you think it is bad now...

I have very little doubt that as the technology matures, they will be able to build a car that ONLY runs on "dealer gas", which has certain molecular marker "tags" in the gasoline to identify it, custom sensors (similar to that used for DNA analysis, only MUCH faster) in the fuel lines, etc hooked up to the computer. When I mean "dealer gas", though, it will probably be a "cooperative" agreement between a gas company and the manufacturer - or maybe it will be something where all gas will work, but a "certain" gas will work "best" - literally.

Re:You think ODB-II is bad? Check out ODB-III!

[BrookHarty]

And since the car sells for 1/2 the price of other cars, people will flock to it.

Embrace, Extend, Litigate.
-
www.

Everybody does it

[Goonie]

Virtually everybody that makes big, complex machinery that needs periodic repair tries to obfuscate things so that a) you have to use their spare parts, and b) you have to use their technicians to do it.

Photocopier makers used to be notorious for this sort of thing (they still are, it's just that all new photocopiers are now laser printers :) ).

this just in

[Em Emalb]

Apparently all mechanics that work on cars are named Joe.

In a controversial move today, Slashdot.org opened a new can of worms with their posting of open source the error codes message. Joe's everywhere are in shock at finding out that they indeed missed their calling.

From Joe C in Paduka, Ky.: "When I found out I was supposed to be working in automotive repairs, I completely was flabergasted. I have always felt like I was missing something in my life, this can explain why. Thanks /.!"

From Joe E. Muntzenburger in Lake Okeechobee, FL.: "Man, when they told me I was supposed to be "Big Joe" down at my local auto-shop, I was stunned. I mean, being CEO of a large paper mill is great, but it can't compare to sweating underneath the hood of a car I don't understand!"

Mods: If you don't get it, then you haven't been reading the comments.

Re:this just in

[Em Emalb]

I don't know which is worse, the fact that you felt the need to debunk my (attempted humor) theory so intently, or the fact that your sense of humor is slightly above that of a frozen horse turd.

Jeeze man, let it go.

Re:this just in

[Em Emalb]

Fair enough, I consider it a 1-1 draw. No penalty kicks though.

peace

Re:this just in

[Tenebrious1]

Check the story at CNN, they also mention "joe's garage"

Yeah, GM is real helpful...

[CrazyDuke]

...I had a brake problem for years, every couple of days to weeks, the computer would bitch about something wrong with the brakes (brake warning light). All the places I took the truck to basically kept saying, "We can't do anything because we can't read the computer codes." So, I kept having to take the truck to the GM dealer and pay their premium prices to "fix" the truck.

1 set of pads and disks replaced and cleaned, 2 master cylinders, a brake computer, and a dump valve later, after bitching relentlessly with the dealer about the problem, the light stopped coming on, yet the problems with the brakes continued. The truck liked to drift to the left or right when braking, sometimes hard. I suspected they cut the line to the warning light somewhere.

After taking the truck in for inspection at another place that is reputed as trustworthy, they replaced my brake lines (the only thing the dealer hadn't) saying that they where old and that the drifting was a sure sign they where wearing out. Problem fixed. Over a thousand dollers to fix a $50 problem thanks to GM.

Re:Yeah, GM is real helpful...

[unitron]

So why haven't you been back to that GM dealership for a refund?

VAG-COM

[Monkelectric]

VAG-COM, My girl friend got that once. Some Cephlexin cleared it right up.

I have some experience here....

[tang]

I work as a mechanic full time right now... and I worked as a technician for the past 4 years while I went to school (CS major working as a mechanic, go figure). Anyway, I've never had a problem with this mysterious hidden code problem. It's pretty simple, I use a handheld diagnostic scanner (Genisys scanner, it runs a Lynx realtime linux, has usb ports, pcmcia ports, ethernet, large color screen, pretty sweet)
it plugs into ALL cars made after 1996 (when the standard for OBDII came out) and most domestic cars with computers made before then. It tells me what code (or codes) have been set, and the data from the time it was set (RPM , engine temp, TPC value etc).
I then take the code, and usually it will say something along the lines of "PO0047 OXY Sensor Bank 2" (I made that code up, but it is very close to something which would actually occur)
Now, that tells me its an oxygen sensor in bank 2, no problem.
It seems to me all these "independent shops" just dont have the proper equipment(sidenote: I work at an independent shop). I have NEVER had a car give me a code that was "secret" and that I didnt have access to. Ofcourse, We have the proper equipment (the scanner was $6,000) and we also have several DVDS which , for each code in the computer give you a flow chart of what to check that could set that code.

It seems that the backwoods shops that people go to because they are cheap, dont have that equipment. Which is why noone understands that when we scan your computer for codes, we charge $55 just to check what the codes are for, not even to fix them.
So remember, when you get your car fixed and it costs a lot for something you think must be simple, remember that the mechanic is probably still paying for thousands of dollars in tools he needs for his job.
That was a long rant,but some of it was ontopic I guess.

Re:I have some experience here....

[unitron]

Six grand for a machine that basically justs accepts and displays a short serial transfer of data? What a racket.

Re:I have some experience here....

[cdrudge]

Why should I buy AutoCAD when I can just draw pictures in MS Paint? Because AutoCAD was specificly designed for detailed engineering/architectural/etc drawings and Paint wasn't. Why should I pay for a Linux maintance contract from RedHat when I could maybe find an answer somewhere on the internet? Because I don't want answeres that might work. I'm paying for a solution and they will work with me to find it.

If this scanner was just a serial interface, then yes $6000 would be a racket. But it is not. It's more then just a serial interface. It's support. It's updates to the codes. Its the man-hours that went into designing the interface, the ruggedized housing, the database of codes. Its the programming to graph everything in a coherent manner instead of just displaying the values in a table and making you figure out what they all mean. A mechanic doesn't want to sit down looking at 5 different data sets to try and diagnose a problem. He wants something that he can plug in, turn on, and it just work. That is what costs $6000.

Simplifing it down to "justs accepts and displays a short serial tranfer of data" is like saying the linux kernel is "just 0's and 1's in a combination." Yes they are both true, but it's a little bit more complex then that.

error codes

[Butane Bob]

Every time I plugged in my 96 Audi A4 Quattro, three or four undocumented codes would come up. One of these was due to a co-worker starting the car while it was in gear ( I was in the back seat, completely intoxicated after a lunchtime margarita fest.) I was lucky enough to know a mechanic who had _some_ of these codes in a database on a nice diagnostic computer. However, many codes were not listed at all, mostly non-critical or not a real error condition, and would not show up again when cleared. (these are the mystery codes) When I was a mechanic a few years ago working on Navistar Diesel truck engines controlled by the MC68HC11 microcontrollers (motorolla 68ks) all codes were documented and the engines could perform real-time checks of all the electronics. The ECU had to be plugged into a hand-held computer that would display all the engine's feedback in realtime on a 5X5 screen. I want one in my car, but that looks like its a few years down the road.

Um, OBD-II is NOT the same thing...

[tgd]

1) Most manufacturers in fact do NOT provide any information about their ECM codings or diagnostic trouble codes. The ONLY published codes are typically the OBD codes, which everyone knows anyway. While we're all proud of you for having three systems to do that at home, clearly you've never used them for actually diagnosing real non-emissions related problems with your car, or you own an older-model (early OBD2) American car.

2) Also blatently incorrect. Companies absolutely hold this information close. In the example I used, Audi's tech manuals cost well over an order of magnitude more than the "consumer" level manuals cost. They are virtually impossible to purchase, anyway, if you're not certified by them. Not coincidentally, virtually all certified mechanics work for dealerships. The manuals that we end users have access to have the very bare minimum of information to perform very basic maintennance on the car. For example, say I want to flush my brake fluid. The procedure that the consumer manuals lists is very different from what the tech manuals list -- they don't even mention that you need to cycle the ABS controller using a VAG tool.

a) Yeah, thats a pretty common excuse stated by people who want to spout off and make people think they know what they're talking about
b) In most cases, this is also blatently wrong. The basic principles of how cars work have not changed much. No one needs to know how the internal code that runs the engine works, but knowing what all the errors it can tell you mean is pretty damn important. Knowing that changing your brake fluid the "old" way isn't doing the job completely is important to know too. This isn't stuff that "backyard" mechanics don't understand, this is stuff they are being deliberately not told. There's a big difference.

You know, you're right, there's a big problem with people who believe what they read. On here, though, there's a bigger problem with people who know a lot less than they think they know. Not that I'm pointing any fingers directly at you.

Re:Um, OBD-II is NOT the same thing...

[ANTI]

Wrong. At least for the german/european manufacturers I talked to.
Ford was very helpfull.
BMW and Mercedes had to "ask the boss".
And Audi (VAG) even send me the codes via email.

ODBII isn't even worth mentioning.
The hadware costs less the 5Euro plus around 15Euro per manufacturer if you want a nice plug.
And the codes are well known and documented.

That consumer manuals don't mention to cycle the ABS after flushing the brake fluid is understandable - my TV manual doesn't say anything about changing R26 from 220K to 470K if I change the Sony driver IC for a Philips one - and if you don't know what you are doing you shouldn't do it yourself anyway, a car is a dangerous weapon.

Car development got a lot faster in the last years,
at least the software side.
(I broke up with my last girlfriend, because she spent more time debugging car "OS" code than ....)

Re:Um, OBD-II is NOT the same thing...

[scumdamn]

Actually, we have a Dodge truck with the exact same problem. OBD doesn't give the information that you need and you can't find out what's wrong except for going to the dealership.
Also, some parts are patented. (Oil pressure sending switch.

Re:Um, OBD-II is NOT the same thing...

[mpe]

That consumer manuals don't mention to cycle the ABS after flushing the brake fluid is understandable - my TV manual doesn't say anything about changing R26 from 220K to 470K if I change the Sony driver IC for a Philips one

Hopefully the service manual does...
Isn't what this is about anyway, the ability of independents to get hold of service manuals?

Re:Um, OBD-II is NOT the same thing...

[zero_offset]

No one needs to know how the internal code that runs the engine works, but knowing what all the errors it can tell you mean is pretty damn important. Knowing that changing your brake fluid the "old" way isn't doing the job completely is important to know too. This isn't stuff that "backyard" mechanics don't understand, this is stuff they are being deliberately not told. There's a big difference.

No one? In fact, there is huge interest in how the code works. A very large number of the aftermarket chips and often things like A/F ratio controllers are directly dependent on how this code works. As an example, I race Vipers, and it was very important to know exactly what both ECUs were up to for optimizing the fuel map (I say both because the Viper V10 is really a V6+V4, right down to having a pair of ECUs). Just watching how the cells change (even using a dealership's $3000 monitoring tool) won't help much unless you can see the code. It's like watching Windows Media Player GPF. You sort of know what it did, but you have no idea why...

Also, I've never saved the URLs but I've seen quite a few discussion forums on the 'net dedicated to reverse-engineering the code in stock engine computers. The discussions commonly include chunks of assembly code. They're very serious, and they're very interested in the code itself.

On here, though, there's a bigger problem with people who know a lot less than they think they know.

Indeed... :P :)

Finally, this whole issue might be barking up the wrong tree. It may not even be the automobile manufacturers who keep this stuff "secret". I saw VW mentioned a bunch of times. A guy I know (who races Vipers) is an engineer who designs the chips for stock VW ECUs, and his company also writes the code -- and he doesn't work for VW. In other words, VW and other auto manufacturers do not necessarily own the code that runs their cars, it's often contracted out.

Re:Um, OBD-II is NOT the same thing...

[cdrudge]

Isn't what this is about anyway, the ability of independents to get hold of service manuals?

Usually you can get a service manual for under a 100 bucks from the dealer/manufacturer. Check in the back of your owners manual. Usually there is a page to send in to order one.

I think this law is to release the diagnostic code values and descriptions for the computer. These codes wouldn't need to be in the manuals since they are programmed into the dealer's diagnostic machine.

Re:ODB-II (ps)

[gmhowell]

It could be ODB-II. I haven't looked that much into car stuff in a while.

Wrong approach: no need for new laws

[MobyDisk]

This is what makes too many laws. There is already a solution in place, the citizens and representatives just need to use them:

1. Most of the posts I see say that these codes are easy to obtain. If the codes for some manufacturer are hard to obtain, shops should not work on those cars. Or charge more. So customers will not buy them. That is how capitalism is supposed to work. Consumers and service shops just need to stand up for the good manufacturers.
2. "Sen. Wellstone says that manufacturers are acting like a cartel, blocking independent shops and car owners." We already have laws against cartels. Use them.

Re:Wrong approach: no need for new laws

[rusty0101]

Point 2, requires providing reasonable evidence that the manufacturers are acting as a cartel, not simply the accusation.

I might point out that it requires some very strong evidence, not just the observation that they are behaving publicly as a cartel.

If public behaviour were sufficent, you could sue the major oil companies. Ever notice how all their unrelated gas stations are adjusting their prices on the same day, always to within a couple of pennies of each other? That is cartel like behaviour. However because the managers of the various gas stations do not talk with each other, and come to an agreement ahead of time, providing each station with a schedule of when to adjust prices, and by how much, they are not defined as a cartel.

There are other reasons for the price changes happening as they do. Reasons like the amount each station is paying for gasoline delivered. The fact that the manager of one station observes that the manager of another station has dropped that station's prices and drivers are going to that station now.

Likewise for delership mechanics having "proprietary" information. That "fact" is not sufficient to take a collection of car companies to court for acting as a cartel. However it is very much cartel like behaviour.

-Rusty

Let's count the FUD

[FearUncertaintyDoubt]

The dealers are waging a FUD war in order to cast the independent mechanics much in the same light as Microsoft would open-source:

Fud #1:
"From a business standpoint, it's diluting our franchise" to make the codes public, he said. "A franchise becomes meaningless."

I'm not even sure what that means, but it sounds scary. We can't have meaningless franchises! The whole system will break down, and then who'll fix your car, huh?

Fud #2:
William Abraham, executive vice president of the Greater Metropolitan Automobile Dealers Association of Minnesota, said that manufacturers "want it to be repaired right the first time. . . . All things being equal, they'd rather have you repair them at a dealership because they know they can get the job done right."

Translation: independent mechanics are scam artists who will leave your car in worse shape than they found it. We can't have them using our codes, that would be like endorsing them to ruin your car and rip you off. And you don't want that, do you? Never mind, of course, that dealer mechanics work on a pay system where the less time they spend fixing your car, the more money they make, and the least profitable jobs go to the worst mechanics. Now that's a system you can endorse!

Fud #3:
Lambert, of the car dealers association, said there is no evidence that independent repair shops are being driven out of business, and he said that consumers enjoy "a wealth of options." He said that no products are more regulated than automobiles, adding that manufacturers must be concerned with safety equipment, recalls and warranties.

There's two in here. 1) These codes are hurting independents? Prove it! Sure pal, right after I prove global warming when Antartica becomes a beach resort. Stall long enough, and there won't be any independent mechanics around to raise a fuss. 2) We're regulated, so you can be sure the government is making sure the system is fair. Oh, please. See US vs. Microsoft.

Fud #3:
They have a right, I think, to restrict who has access to all of that technology," he said. "Otherwise, they're left with people they don't have any relationship with working on vehicles that they're still responsible for."

Of course the manufacturers don't have a relationship with the independent mechanics -- the manufacturers deliberately refused to establish one to keep you away from them! If they started sharing the codes, then they would have a relationship, now wouldn't they? And you know what? I have a better relationship with my mechanic than with the dealer! But apparently that relationship isn't important (or maybe it is, that's why the dealers are trying to break it).

Fud #3:
"The old garage mechanic is gone," he said. "In fact, the term 'mechanic' is gone. They're called technicians now. These people have to be very intelligent people. They're working on computers, and it's a high-tech industry.

Of course, the guy from the dealer association said that customers have lots of "options", and that there's no evidence the mechanics are in trouble. Now, having assuaged our concern for the little guy, this other dude says that they don't even exist anymore anyhow. Pay no attention to that shop that says "Main St. Auto Repair" down the block. He's just a gorilla in overalls that couldn't possibly understand how to read a number from a screen, and look it up in a book that says, "water pump is failing." That's way too sophistamacated for a dumb schmoe like that. Forget that he has twenty years of experience and the dealer guy is some kid fresh out of a technical school (see Unix admins vs. MSCEs).

How many times have you heard someone ask, "when your Linux server breaks, who are you gonna call?"

FUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFU DFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDF UDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUD FUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFUDFU

What?

[The Cat]

What? What? Huge companies attempting to limit competition so they can collect assured profits perpetually?

Say it isn't so!

One way to protest

[ortholattice]

So now we have another RIAA/MPAA-like cartel. The dealers are the ones who want the codes kept secret (from everyone else but them). So the next time you buy a car, ask for the codes as part of the deal. If the dealer refuses, let him/her know that they lost a sale - there are plenty of brands to pick from. If possible wait until all the paperwork is prepared, then just before signing on the dotted line, act shocked to discover that essential repair information is being withheld from you (which means you will not really "own" the car, so you are being cheated). That will help drive home the point. Probably more so than returning a copy-protected CD. If enough people do this...

If you don't see the problem with secret repair codes, would you buy a computer with diagnostic codes that were kept secret in order to force you to return it to the factory for repair at exorbitant rates?

Re:That's all fine and dandy...

[bergeron76]

This one does. It's even open source.

Disclaimer: I am the owner of said vehicle

Amazingly enough...

[YrWrstNtmr]

a little sniffing around yields this ODBScan Protocol Interface

They also sell the interface hardware and software for
There are also numerous places to download free OBD demos.

Re:ODB-II (ps)

[nlh]

It's OBD -- On Board Diagnostics

gee, why does this remind me of "share the APIs"?

[e40]

It's the classic little vs big guy.

The auto makers should share the codes for the same reason Microsoft should share the (internal) APIs: openness fosters fairness and competition, which is good for the consumer.

Hopefully, someone will point this out to the congress-critters, and the analogy might finally turn on the light in their heads about software.

Cartels are good

[phriedom]

"The old garage mechanic is gone," he said. "In fact, the term 'mechanic' is gone. They're called technicians now. These people have to be very intelligent people. They're working on computers, and it's a high-tech industry. . . . How does the guy that's in a little town of a population of 500 people get educated about the electronics of a $30,000 new automobile?

Could he be any more condescending?

Re:Cartels are good

[fishbowl]

I wish this clown could receive a scathing letter from a person who grew up in such a little town, and became a successful automotive engineer.

It would be even better if that person was an ethnic minority, and if he or she had gone on to be an executive in the automotive industry.

It would be even BETTER if that person were in a position to execute the walking papers of the moron who said that crap in the parent post.

Re:gee, why does this remind me of "share the APIs

[e40]

I don't remember the API, but MS didn't give Netscape an API until it was released, but gave it to others before the release. This was part of the DOJ case against MS. There were also allegations during the same trial that MS withheld important APIs from competitors that their applications developers had access to. In other words, information passed between the OS and applications groups at MS that should have been public for other application developers to see.

It is interesting

[Edmund Blackadder]

It is interesting how senators are willing to help the little auto mechanic, from being locked out by the large manufacturer, but not the little pc software developer from being locked out by the large software developers.

What is it? Is it because auto mechanics is an easier bussiness to understand? Are they better organized? Or is it because the small automechanic is an old institution.

Re:It is interesting

[Planesdragon]

Well, gee, that's simple.

It's because there are *more* small town auto mechanics than small-town "software developers." More people use their services, and more people even tinker at home with their cars.

I'd be willing to guess that the percentages of the relative populations (of computer users and car drivers) that do personal or semiprofessional maintenance is at least a few % in the car's favor.

Why spend $6000 for a computer with a cable?

[wadetemp]

I personally think I shouldn't have to pay $55 for this... because I think you shouldn't have to pay $6000 for that dumb scanner in the first place (times however many of them you have.) The problem is that mechanics are getting ripped off because this equipment they use is so rare.

How hard would it be to connect one of these $6000 machines to a PC with some kind of cable connect? You could have the PC generate every possible code sequence, over the line, then watch the results on the scanner and renter the results into the PC. Viola, the database is yours. Now reverse that connector so the PC can detect the codes, and for the price of whatever cable and port you need to hook up, the (hopefully free) cost of a 486, and a little programming for your UI, you've got yourself an equivalent scanner. And then you can start charging me what that service is actually worth (next to nothing) and make bank because people will actually start having the money to fix thier car everytime the mystery "check engine" light comes on.

Re:Why spend $6000 for a computer with a cable?

[zangdesign]

shouldn't have to pay $6000 for that dumb scanner

We're not talking about a very high demand item here. The high price is probably due more to the lack of demand for a very durable good.

hard would it be to connect one of these $6000 machines to a PC

Not very. But how much time do you lose working up that database? Somebody needs to be minding the garage.

you can start charging me what that service is actually worth

Well, how much the service is worth to you depends on how badly you need your car. While it may not cost the mechanic much after your "simple" process, YOU'RE still the one with the broken car. Sure, his job is easier, but you're failing to take into account the rest of the job, like labor, wear, insurance, tools, etc.

None of that stuff is cheap.

Re:Why spend $6000 for a computer with a cable?

[wadetemp]

The original point of the article was that smaller shops can't cough up $6000 for that scanner. All they need is the data for the codes, which could be easily obtained by one resourceful person and shared around the community. The fact that the data's bottled up in a $6000 contraption which makes graphs is not really the point.

Hell, if rather than having a check engine light, the car itself just had a readout that showed a log of valve cloggings and electronic malfunctions, I could probably figure it out for myself, buy the part at the parts store, and put it in. But then again that would end this little circle of "pay me and I'll tell you what part is broken" wouldn't it?

I suppose I've just been to too many automotive shops (the $60/hr ones) where they charge me a full hour to hook my car up to a cable for 10 minutes... and then still can't fix the car properly, $500 and several parts later. Codes or not, the best mechanics I've been to never had scanners, and just knew the cars and the problems that they have as they progress though their lifetimes. Think of how much better they'd be if they could have the car tell them what it "thinks" the problem is.

Re:Why spend $6000 for a computer with a cable?

[bluGill]

My Mechanic gets $60/hour. I get about half that. now granted the mechanic himself makes less than I do, overhead in the shop makes up the rest. I own my own tools, I work on my own cars. I have rebuilt engines before, and I would do it again (except modern engines normally run longer than the car lasts). I won't mention that I often get parts cheaper than the mechanic charges)

The point is I work on my own cars whenever I can. It might take me twice as long, but I break even at that, and it is a nice change from my day job. I can't justify having a mechanic do most of the work on my car when I can do it.

I cannot justify a $6000 tool though. It doesn't pay when I will only use it every three years. Flash out the code on the dash, and give me a book/database (put it online please!) to look it up in and I will fix the problem. The comptuer already knows, and it already has lights that it can flash. Sure it is less convient than the $6000 computer which displays P01005, where I have to count flashes, but I can count flashes just fine. Just tell me what the code means.

Re:Why spend $6000 for a computer with a cable?

[Marasmus]

http://www.obd-2.com/ is your answer. About $150 and you can interface with any of the 3 main OBD-II interfacing protocols. Downloadable updates. Error code sets for your manufacturer. Tons of information. And the author has a very impressive resume when it comes to automotive and computer diagnostic design!

Mix this with a little bit of community-brainstorming on an automotive message board, and most car problems can be solved.Not having the tools to fix something is a whole other issue :) Software has a hard time transforming into a torque wrench!

Re:Why spend $6000 for a computer with a cable?

[wadetemp]

Very cool. Funny how that doesn't cost $6000, isn't it? I also find it funny that shops who make use of this sanely-priced tool probably *still* charge you $55 to have your engine's codes downloaded. :)

Not the same at all...

[Mustang Matt]

You're comparing apples to oranges...

Giving out the source would be like giving out the engine design specs. Ford and GM go through a lot of R&D and don't want to have to give out every piece of info about the cas they build and they shouldn't have to, Microsoft goes through a lot of R&D and also shouldn't have to give out their "engine source."

Giving out the API would be good though...

Re:Won't Work

[DNS-and-BIND]

People actually think there is a difference between the republicrats and demoblicans? Rather like the difference between Oceania and Eastasia.

Dirty Little Secret

[brad3378]

Automakers make money by keeping this stuff secret. Why?

Dealerships do two types of repairs:
Customer Pay, and Warranty pay. As a way to protect consumers from questionable hourly billing, shops use a refrence book that tells them about how many hours a job will take. This book is how your estimate is determined (plus or minus whatever the service writer thinks they can get out of you)

What you're not told is that customer pay jobs
are often quoted TWICE the time alocated for warranty jobs. Very few mechanics like warranty jobs unless it's something that they have a really good shortcut around (i.e. A faster way to replace an engine than the shop manual shows)

Since automakers tell the dealerships how much they will pay for warranty jobs, Dealerships tend to make up for it by overcharging for customer pay jobs (via padding the quoted labor times)

So who gets screwed?
Not the automakers...
They sell more replacement parts when they can eliminate independant shops and
aftermarket parts. Independant shops tend to buy more aftermarket parts than OEM parts.

Not the Dealerships...
The dealership mechanics don't like to give up their "gravy" jobs like brakes & transmission services to Independant shops because those gravy jobs are what help them compensate for warranty work. Dearership owners feel the same way. For a given week, if mechanic 1 can replace 10 customer pay transmissions, and mechanic 2 can replace the same number of warranty transmissions, Mechanic 1 just earned the dealership twice as much and without all the BS warranty paperwork.

Independant shops get screwed.
Common sense. They can't compete because automakers are trying everything they can to get customers to come to them for all their needs. Independant shops must then rely on oil changes & mufflers to make their money, and there's too much competition there because it doesn't involve as much training. There isn't nearly as much money to be made changing oil as there can be for drivability & electrical stuff. The little shops must do a lot more little tests that the Non-OBD2 codes provide. How can a little shop compete?

Customers get screwed.
Mainly because competition is eliminated.
Don't expect to see any improvement either.
CNN headline news has been reporting that there will be a shortage of about 200,000 mechanics by the year 2010. Expect to see dealerships take advantage of that and watch labor rates and times skyrocket.

Re:Dirty Little Secret

[bluGill]

Which brings up an interesting point, which is that aftermarket parts tend to be poorly manufactured and need to be replaced sooner than the factory equivalent.

This is a generalization, and like all of them, it is false. OEM parts do tend to be high quality, but that doesn't mean the aftermarket parts are not. Some aftermarket parts are better, some worse.

Many OEM parts are not made by the OEM, they are made by some other company, who slaps the OEM name on the first 1000 parts off the assembly line, and then their name on the rest they make that day. Often one assembly line will make the same part (which may or may not be the same quality) for several different manufactures. Manufatures outsource a lot of this because a company that focuses on just one part can often make that part cheaper and better. Sometimes the buyer will order parts with lower quality, othertimes it is exactly the same. As and example, 80percent of all spark plugs are made by Champion for example, they put whatever name the buyer wants on it.

I have used both OEM and non-OEM parts. When there isn't a cost difference OEM is a good way to be sure. When there is you need to check out quality, if there is a choice on quality or price stores will warn you and give you a choice.

Re:Dirty Little Secret

[rot26]

Here's a little dealership secret for you: technicians have an hourly wage. As many hours as they can book in a day, they get paid for, either warranty or customer pay work. The only reason they like warranty work better is because the repairs are always authorized, as opposed to wasting time waiting for the service advisor to get approval over the phone from a customer.


This may have been true at your BMW dealership. It's definitely NOT true everywhere. My parent's friend and neighbor owns an Olds/Cadillac dealership, and his service writers AND mechanics are paid commission as well as hourly rate. It sounds unethical to me too, but according to him, the advantage is the same as for any business paying employees commission vs. straight wages: they work a hell of a lot harder. He says (and I have absolutely no reason not be believe him) that he has several mechanics who make $50k-60k per year. (Actually, I never heard of a service writer who wasn't paid a commission.)

Re:Dirty Little Secret

[Bangback]

As a datapoint I just replaced an oxygen sensor in a Jeep Grand Cherokee. The OEM part is $180. The aftermarket part is $60. The ONLY DIFFERENCE is the plastic interface plug on the end (the sensors are identical and are both manufactured by Bosch). $120 compensated me nicely for five minutes with a crimp kit.
Jeep is notorious for jacking up the price of old parts.

Re:Dirty Little Secret

[brad3378]

&gt Is there a good way to find out about the best mechanics in the area?

Unfortunately, it is not easy.
A dealership will typically have a guy specialize in one area, so a shop might have a really good Transmission guy, but maybe not a very good engine guy.

The best way to find a good mechanic is probably to ask the local part stores.
They usually don't fix stuff there, so they don't have a conflict of interest, and they usually know the shops quite well. Try to find an employee you think has worked there longest; they probably know more horror stories, and will likely have a better idea where to send you.

Overall, dealerships have better repair records, because they have more repition than shops that work on everything. The comprimise is that they typically cost more. If it is something that you can't risk - try a a dealer. If you want to save some bucks, try a privately owned shop.

Two last bits of advice,
Privately owned shops are typically more willing to buy used parts from salvage yards. You may need to special request it, but you can save a lot of money.

Example:
My Ford Escort needed a new camshaft and misc. parts
Dearercost for new cam - about $300.00
new roller lifters - eight @ $16.00 each
lifter guides - 4 sets @ about $6.00 each

Junkyard sold me the entire aluminum cylinder head with a warranty for $75 - parts sold separtely would easily cost over $1000.00
after removing the parts I needed, I bet I could still get my $75 back if I sold the rest of the parts on E-Bay.

Salvage yard parts work best for stuff like windshields, hard to find body panels, and non-moving parts. For obvious reasons, try to avoid using used brake parts, shocks, or other common wear items.

Lastly,
Don't be afraid to check out performance parts.
Another dirty secret in the industry is that the plain jane parts cost more money than hard-core racing parts.

Example:
My dodge Shadow had a snapped camshaft.
OEM replacement cost was about $300.00
but a Mopar (Chryslers racing brand) cam sold for about $130.00 at the same dearlership! In the end, I got a better than stock camshaft for less than half the cost!

Re:Dirty Little Secret

[brad3378]

&gt Note: I used to be a service advisor (aka service writer) at a BMW dealership in New York.

Note: I used to be a Ford Dealership tech/mechanic in Michigan. (Master ASE certification - I know what I'm talking about)

&gt Book rate is supposedly the average number of hours it takes to do a job, as benchmarked at the factory. If a service writer at a franchised dealership tried to charge more, the franchise could be revoked. Oh, and its horribly unethical.

I disagree.
I don't believe it's unethical to quote different labor rates for different vehicles. For instance, Owners of conversion vans are often charged more for tune-ups because it is often much more difficult to remove the "dog-house" cover from the interior with all the added non-standeard trimwork.

4x4 trucks with aftermarket skid plates - one more thing to remove (not in labor time book)

Custom wheel covers - more crap that needs to be taken off - often without the aid of the original wheel wrench tool. (not in labor time book)

Crap inside the car - I remember changing an entire vehicle wiring harness in an escort. I needed three stalls, One for the car, One for the parts removed, and the 3rd stall for all the stuff inside the car.

&gt No, customers are not quoted anything other than book rate. And occasionally, a generous technician will agree to do small work for free, essentially agreeing to NOT get paid for work performed.

The second sentence contradicts the first.

&gt Techs LOVE warranty work because it is automatically authorized by the factory, as opposed to a customer who doesn't want to agree to new valve gaskets because the car will still run for a few thousand more miles before its critical.

In this particular case, it would not be unethical for the shop to charge for the work performed. In this case a diagnosis fee for determining the problem was a "valve gasket" (as you call it) Usually they're called "valve cover gaskets".

&gt Here's a little dealership secret for you: technicians have an hourly wage. As many hours as they can book in a day, they get paid for, either warranty or customer pay work. The only reason they like warranty work better is because the repairs are always authorized, as opposed to wasting time waiting for the service advisor to get approval over the phone from a customer.

Technicians are usually paid via the "flat-rate" system - this means they are paid by book time - not clock time. Oil changers could be either flat-rate or hourly paid. Higher-end technicians can be paid via a salary system. They are usally the first people to be kept busy because they are getting paid whether or not a car comes through the oor. This option only works for high volume shops. I don't doubt that BMW techs would be paid on an hourly basis. Quality suffers (how much is arguable) under the "rush it out the door" flat-rate (book time) system. BMW dealerships would be willing to make this sacrifice because they'll be more likey to keep selling their $50,000 cars. Yes, you will likely be treated differently if you are a lifetime BMW customer.

&gt ...wasting time waiting for the service advisor to get approval over the phone from a customer.

often repairs are authorized to a certain amount before a repair is made. If authorization is needed, mechanics switch to another vehicle while the customer is contacted. No time is wasted as long as the mechanic has more than one car to work on.

&gt aftermarket parts. Independant shops tend to buy more aftermarket parts than OEM parts.
Which brings up an interesting point, which is that aftermarket parts tend to be poorly manufactured and need to be replaced sooner than the factory equivalent.

This is a common automotive flamewar. Neither side is right every time. Often OEM parts are better, but other times, SOME aftermarket parts are better. And in some cases, the parts are "vendor made" which means those lift gate struts you buy from the dealership are made by the same factory as the OEM parts. No Automakers use their own parts exclusively anymore.

Buyer Beware. Some vendor parts are better, some are worse. Don't believe somebody that says "ALL" OEM parts are better.
And don't believe people that say "ALL" aftermarket parts are "ALWAYS" equal to OEM - They're sometimes not.

If OEM parts cost $500 and aftermarket parts cost $250 for 90% of the quality, Sorry, but I'm gonna buy the aftermarket parts for my own car.

I think I agree with the rest of your comments.

EULA

[ziegast]

Perhaps one day our cars won't start until we break the shrink wrap that says we must agree to the End User License Agreement before using the car.

It brings new meaning to the term "24-month lease".

-ez

Many ECUs One in the Same

[stuffman64]

The problem here may not be just getting car manufacturers to divulge engine codes, but rather the maker of the ECU itself. For instance, Bosch produces ECUs or other engine components for virtually every car maker. Last year, Bosch had over $23x10^9 in sales in the automotive sector alone. Since nearly all European manufacturers rely on the Motronic ECU for higher-end engine applications, I'm sure that many Engine Control and Error Codes are similar amongst many different models and manufacturers.

I'm not entirely sure about whether or not the problem is the manufacturers' reluctance to supply codes. Perhaps they have a contract or something with the supplier of the ECUs to keep things hush-hush. Not only do the manufacturers make out by requiring service at their garage with their advanced tools, but the ECU supplier stays safe from the competition by not having all the details of their system easily divulged.

ol' dirty bastard?

[beckett]

ODB? yeah.

"because Biggie done do some of that shit too"

OBD scanning

[detritus.]

From OBDII.com regarding the purchase of an OBD scanner:

Not all scantools are equal. In fact, some aren't even close. As part of the OBDII standard, the US Environmental Protection Agency mandated that a basic set of emissions related readings be supported on all OBDII vehicles. The SAE specification J1979 defines these legislated parameters. Many low-end tools only support these emissions related readings, giving you access to only a dozen or so truly useful parameters. While these give you some basic vehicle information, they are just a small set of the vehicle information available through the OBDII port. When shopping for a scantool, be sure to find out if it supports just the legislated parameters or if it also includes the enhanced (sometimes called proprietary) diagnostics.

It goes to show that auto manufacturers will only cooperate because of laws and regulations. They have no intentions of developing standards with their competitors (or in some cases, even within the divisions of their own company!). Just as some automotive companies made their own "enhanced" OBD-based diagnostics only for their own interest, they do the same with car parts. It's all finding a way for them (or their business partners) to make money. Sadly, these car companies fail to see that when they work together to develop a standard, they all benefit.

I was at AutoZone the other day...

[Cinematique]

and I noticed a banner in the window that caught my eye.

This pretty much sums it all up. They offer FREE code retrieval.

Back when I had a Jeep Wrangler, I bought a Haynes service manual that showed me what its codes were. I could easily obtain the error messages through a morse-code system.

To see what the diagnostic computer felt was wrong, you turned the ignition key so that it went off/on/of/on/of/on. After the third and final "on," the check engine light would flash a certain number of times, which corresponded to a specific problem code.

flash - flash - flash
*pause*
flaah - flash - flash

... that would mean 33. 33 stood for Air Conditioning, IIRC. That code would always come back since my Jeep didn't have an A/C unit plugged into the diagnostic box.

Anyways... the Jeep was a '91. I miss it so much.

*tear*

Your analogy is flawed..

[Myself]

The hard drive is but a small chunk of a computer. I don't mind if the drive is sealed and the firmware proprietary, as long as it conforms to a well-documented standard interface, and doesn't require any proprietary tweaks to perform well.

Likewise, I don't care what shape my pistons are ground in, or how the valvetrain actually works. Overhead or pushrod, seal it up so I never see it, I don't care.

However, my computer as a whole had better not be welded shut! I want to be able to inspect its operation, make sure I'm the user and it's the tool, not the other way around. I want to be able to control its operation, write my own programs, and tweak the misfeatures of others' programs. I'll never need to manually adjust the flying gap on my hard drive, but I definitely do want to customize my boot sequence, and scrutinize data leaving over my net connection.

Likewise, my car should be open enough that I can change the parts I want to. I'm happy with the engine, but why can't I turn off my headlights when I pull into my friend's driveway, so as not to wake his neighbors? I want wiring diagrams, so I can make the lighter socket behave more sensibly. I don't care if certain parts are sealed for practical reasons, but the rest of it should be open for me, the owner, to customize.

I think your analoy is flawed because you compare the hard drive to a car. The drive can be a black-box with no ill effect. It's the computer system as a whole that must be open to the user. The car can contain several black-box components, but I should be free to inspect and reconfigure the connections between them.

If you think this tendency in cars is scary, go read this article on Microsoft's Palladium plan. Talk about welded shut! At least your car doesn't refuse to carry passengers and cargo that haven't been approved by the manufacturer.

The biggest U.S. wealth redistribution

[Catbeller]

There is a Federal debt, about 4 trillion dollars worth. Most of it was run up during the Eighties when major tax cuts were instituted. And the Fed engine is once again running in the red due to the new tax cuts, especially the ones phasing in over the next eight years. It's going to be huge, the debt.

Now here's the income redistribution part. 17% or so of every tax dollar taken in by the IRS is spent to pay the interest on those trillions of dollars of tax-cut spawned debt. Year after year since the middle '80's, 17 percent of our country's gross revenue is peeled off and sent to...

Bond holders. When the Guv, in our name, can't raise enough money to pay for bread and tanks and roads, it has to borrowed. Usually this is done through bonds, paper bought by investors, both in the U.S. and abroad, which will earn interest year by year.

We pipe tens of billions of dollars of our income every year to very wealthy individuals and institutions. A great deal of the wealth in this nation is generated by that distribution. It's better than a gold mine, better than real estate.

Multiply this yearly welfare payment by about 21 years. We have, in the name of tax cuts, pumped hundreds and hundreds of billions of dollars into the pockets of people who could afford to buy all those bonds and float all those loans. A goodly number of them are offshore... just about anyone can buy our money-making debt. To be really awestruck, adjust those dollars for inflation and recalculate what wealth we have transferred for a few bucks off our taxes.

Is it no wonder that wealthy people love tax breaks and don't mind a massive debt? Hell, I knew of an economics professor who straight-out declared that reducing or eliminating the national debt would spread destabilization around the world -- and he was right. Investors around the world love the money pump! It's like a rain of gold that will never end.

Now, for an exercise, compare the amount spent on debt service, which goes to wealthy/well off debt owners, to the amounts spent on aid for dependent children or Head Start. It's pitiful. The spending on our debt to the enrichment of the very well to do dwarfs anything we spend on the poor or schools.

The debt and deficit spending due to tax cuts are the biggest wealth redistribution scam in the history of mankind.

Yes, it does

[Catbeller]

CNN requires registration for video viewing.

Re:Yes, it does

[rmohr02]

But not to read an article. Also, I have a dialup connection and I never bother with videos.

Getting Chrysler computer codes:

[Kymermosst]

As always when this subject comes up, major props to Chrysler for making the codes easy to get. At least, in the past. Looks like it's not so easy on newer models. (Must be the Daimler folks that are influencing it.) Too bad.

ECM (ALDL) There is Trouble Codes and Serial Data

[BlackListedCard]

After reading the many messages regarding this topic. Here is a breakdown of information. There are many trouble codes which can be transmitted by the ALDL unit. Also, which most people did not discuss here is the serial data. This data is streaming information which contains information on fuel mixture, speed, and A/C information. The serial data can be read from the ALDL to your computer. Please visit this site for a simple hardware interface and some information on ALDL timings. http://www.techedge.com.au/vehicle/aldl8192/8192hw . tm There is tons of software out there. http://www.andywhittaker.com/ecu/ecu_software.htm Here is the best site on the ALDL(ECM) protocol. Check this site out........ http://www.ws6transam.org/ALDL.html I have a working interface board for my car computer. GPS, MP3, DVD and realtime (yeah right) automobile information from the ALDL unit. Enjoy..!!!!!!!

Not about cars: it's about software

[juliao]

We seem to be missing the point here:

This is NOT about cars, this is about software and about interchange formats!

I hope this law makes it: this will be the grounds for asking for a law that forces Microsoft et al. to open their document format.

Today, independent programmers cannot perform services for their customers because large software makers hide the specifications for document formats. This means that an independent programmer cannot properly access and service the customer's database/spreadsheet/file without specialized tools that he would be required to buy from the software maker. This, in fact, amounts to some degree of cartelization, in so far as only programmers "licensed" by the software maker have access to these tools, in what amounts to a cartel. By effectively preventing independent programmers from obtaining revenue from services, this situation limits choice for consumers and harms many independent programmers, who are sometimes the sole financial support for their family.

This about it. This may be the way to go.

OS software not likely for a while

[maddogsparky]

The software that my company puts in its products for the OEM is given to them for "free". I've approached my managers about opening up the source code, but they are fearful that it could give our competitors an advantage over them and open them up for lawsuits if a bug was found.

Any ideas on how to answer these concerns?

Two stories...

[wowbagger]

I have three related stories about the absence of good diagnostic information, both showing WHY the auto manufacturers should open the protocols.

First story. I was on vacation at the Grand Canyon's South rim, and the plan was to head to the North Rim. While that is only a few miles as the neutrino flies, it's about 150 miles by road. Furthurmore, the South Rim is pretty damn far from anything else. So, I get into my car (a 1997 Grand Marquis that had just had its 100kMile service) and lo and behold, the "Overdrive OFF" indicator starts flashing - a fault has been detected in the automatic transmission. Between having the "Check Engine" light come on or this, I'll pick the "Check Engine" light any day - you can troubleshoot an engine in the field, and generally most engine failures are "limp home" failures. A tranny failure tends to be a "walk home" moment.

After poking, prodding, and checking, the light goes out. No explaination. So, we head off for the North Rim. 80 miles from anywhere the tranny goes "thump", the light flashes, and I curse. I managed to get to civilization, rent a UHaul truck and car trailer, and tow my car home. The dealership tells me the ATF had started to break down - they flushed it and changed the filter.

Now, BECAUSE the South Rim is so far from anywhere, and because so many vehicles go there, there is a service shop there. Had the car been able to tell me "Clutch #2 slippage detected - possible fluid breakdown" I could have gone to the shop at the South Rim, had the fluid changed, and gone on without having my plans screwed up. Instead, I paid US$900 to tow my car home, and US$200 for the service.

Second story: A couple of months later, I was going to work. I turned the key, and the "Check Engine" light stayed on. I checked the oil, listens for strange noises, and said "Emissions problem, not serious, call the dealer." Sure enough, the dealership read the codes, and said "Transient failure to pull a vacuum on the fuel tank vapor recovery - It's not showing now. Keep an eye on it. And damn guy, but according to this you've hit the rev limiter on this thing! How fast were you GOING?" Cost: $150. Had I been able to read the codes, I could have cleared it and kept an eye on it.

Third story: A few weeks later, I was heading home, pulled out from a stop, and the tranny said "bang" and the "Overdrive OFF" indicator began to blink. It turns out the fluid had gone bad BECAUSE the #2 clutch had failed. US$1300 later, I have a rebuild in place. I took the car to a tranny shop nearby, rather than the dealership. As I was demonstrating the failure to the mechanic (at that point, it was still intermittant) I commented "Yeah, I know how hard it is to troubleshoot intermittant failures - I am a software engineer". His immediate response: "Maybe you could write some software for us that would work on all of these cars!"

Conclusion: There is a clear harm to the consumer by the practices of the auto manufacturers, who together are acting in an anti-competitive and monopolistic fashion. I hope we CAN make them play nice (imagine a nice GTK front-end for diagnostics....)

Re:OBD-II

[cloudmaster]

Different manufacturers use different pins on the standard OBD-II conenctor, though most pinouts are documented. You can find generic software that can read the raw code, but it's hard to find anything (and nearly impossible to find something affordable) that will translate those numbers into something human readable. It's also hard to find something that will write back to the computer. All manufactuerers extend the standard few codes with their own propreitary stuff, and the things that get written back are different from manufacturer to manufacturer (and model to model). *Those* are the things we need opened, not the already open standard.

People see that there's a standard and assume that it's all OK. Kerberos is a standard and LDAP is a standard, I wonder why it's hard to make programs that work with MS's kerberos implementation and Active Directory? Is it because of undocumented vendor-specific extensions? I'll bet it is... :) The OBD-II thing is the same idea.

I agree

[macdaddy]

They should be made public. My father owned a garage up until the early 90s. He got out just as computerized cars were really becoming popular and widespread. The few years he had in them were hecktic. Every damned car had a different monitoring device and connector. Do you have any idea how much those bitches cost?! I think there should be a standard. Make it like SNMP where the basic, common things are given a common/standardized OID and then let the vendors put their proprietary stuff under their company OID. More things need standards.

Re:Mitchell Books.

[nolife]

I've used Mitchell books for various electrical problems and projects over the years, They are far more in depth then a Chiltons or a Haynes manual. I do not know what they contain as far as computer codes and diagnostics are concerned though. The manuals are very expensive but you can usually find them at a larger community library. Worth a look if the regular manuals are not detaled enough for your project.

...and then..

[multipartmixed]

..if your car runs like shit, start it in the parking lot, let it idle until the fan comes on, and shut it off. Do this twice. Now take it for a drive, like you usually would drive the vehicle.

That should reset the ECM FI map (it's sort of a neural net with some node weights pre-programmed) that you probably wiped out by disconnecting the battery.

Also, your stereo might get angry, too.

Re:The other hand

[interstellar_donkey]

Then they remove their mod, and come into the dealership complaining about "doesn't run right" - hoping to be taken for an innocent fool.

With all that technology you put into those things, don't you think you can find something that logs the changes? I don't see how that would be so hard.

"yeah, this part is burned out. According to your system logs, a mod chip was placed into the car on 7/14, and was replaced with the orgininal yesterday. I can't cover this"

Re:Karma Whoring:(not)

[fishbowl]

I won't set foot in a new car dealer!
Also, you don't want them to feel foolish, just hungry!

The original argument was offtopic

[Catbeller]

The original argument/question was offtopic. The poster had rhetorically asked about any U.S. wealth redistribution programs currently in effect, and I provided the one, big, All-Father blessed money transfer of all time. And one that is simply not discussed anywhere that I have noticed. It's like ignoring a T. Rex eating your family in the living room whilst you are watching Buffy. Weird.
With the money spent on that debt service, we could rebuild all our public schools, finance the space program, give true tax cuts, on and on. But we have a permanent wealth drain leaching 17% of our tax contributions into a chuckling black hole of investors.

Re:Won't Work

[rmohr02]

You mean Eastasia and Eurasia, right? We don't really know anything about Eastasia or Eurasia except that we were at war with Eastasia and then we were at war with Eurasia and we had never been at war with Eastasia--or maybe there never actually was a war.

Correction:

[Catbeller]

The U.S. debt is 5.95 trillion, not 3. And the Bushers want the debt ceiling raised by 450 billion, or we default on the debt by next week.

That will be nearly 6.5 thousand billion dollars. And we pay interest on that, every day. It's strangling us. And making some people filthy rich.

BBC online: Monday, 24 June, 2002, 12:07 GMT 13:07 UK
US could default on debt

Reverse engineering is hard for non-PCs

[maddogsparky]

1. We don't have a memory chip; we use a microcontroller with no external bus. And even if you do manage to bypass security, all you'll end up with is assembly code. Have you every tried to decypher 50K+ of assembly?

2. I would wager that most bugs found in Microsoft code are found by studying APIs or by running debuggers on the code to find buffer overflows and the like. Automotive computers don't run outside programs.

3. If we did GPL the code, it would be hard to prove that another company was using it. As it is, automotive companies heavily use patent laws and trade secrets to protect their IP from their competitors. Granted, an individual may come up with something better, but how do you convice a manager that this is more likely than losing IP to your competitor?