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Is There Such a Thing as "Too User Friendly"?

rtphokie asks: "The story about the TiVo get-together along with some recent trials and tribulations rolling out a knowledge base along with the time I've spent recently helping my 80 year old grandfather with this VCR and TV has gotten me thinking about user interfaces and the elusive "user-friendly" label. When someone who thinks of themselves as 'non computer savvy' works with a gadget like TiVo and compains that it's 'too complicated', how should we react? Why are users immediately forgiven for not even taking the least amount of effort to look for a solution to their confusion in the manual. The tendency has always been to blame the interface and ultimately the engineers who designed it but isn't there a point where users have got to share some of the blame? Why do today's software and consumer electronics users expect to be able to fire up their new toy and magically have a complete understanding of how to use it?"

47 of 627 comments (clear)

  1. How user friendly is a car? by gelfling · · Score: 3, Funny

    I mean people still crash for no obvious reason, right? How user friendly is a refrigerator or a power drill? How user friendly is your girlfriend?

    1. Re:How user friendly is a car? by Jack+Porter · · Score: 4, Funny

      You mean I clicked the "1 reply beneath your current threshold" link, and I didn't even get a funny comment about the poster's girlfriend?!

  2. "Is There Such a Thing as "Too User Friendly"?" by WIAKywbfatw · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Never. The simpler something is to use, the better.

    Don't confuse simple to use with basic - just because something is easy to operate it doesn't mean that it's incapable of doing some complicated things.

    Many examples spring to mind but the telephone is top of my list. With my phone I can call half way around the world in just a few seconds - heck, even my two year-old nephew can.

    --

    "Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg
    1. Re:"Is There Such a Thing as "Too User Friendly"?" by Darth_Burrito · · Score: 5, Funny

      Ba, phones are too complicated.

      First you have to sign up for a local carier, then you have to sign up for a long distance carrier. Then you get called four times a day as various phone companies try to get you to switch or sign up for extra features.

      Then you have to remember all these strange and bizarrely complicated numbers. 10-10-811-Charlie-Tango-Niner, 1-800-Collect, dialing 1 for long distance, dialing 8 to get an outside line, etc. When I think of my good friend Ben, the first thing to pop to mind isn't an arbitrary ten digit number. Using numbers for phones is no better than listing your website by ip address sans domain.

      And all that's without getting into the kinds of things people are starting to use phones for... instant messaging, checking email, listening to mp3s, things the device's interface is piss poor at dealing with.

  3. The Windows way... by doorbot.com · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ...is to just "Wizard" every action the user may need to take. By trying to anticipate what the user wants, a wizard can be provided to allow the user to quickly, and easily, complete their task. Of course, then you end up with a wizard so large and complex that it becomes an OS in itself, and one needs to read the help files associated with each option to successfully progress thorough the wizard's heirarchical structure (refer to Windows XP's default settings for the control panel). You have to know what each option does before you can click it. So eventually, when wizards rule the lands, there will be a manual for the wizards! And, as a "computer guy" I can still say "RTFM!"

  4. RTFM by jawtheshark · · Score: 3, Insightful
    I'm sorry I have to say this but often reading the manual helps. Unfortunately the quality of the manuals has gone down in the years because the "interface is so userfriendly". I recall my first cellphone: a full 200page manual. I read it, I understood it and now I practically know how GSM works ;-) Okay, this is not for everyone....I recon, but consider this. Two years ago, my 5 year old cellphone was due for replacement (unable to get new batteries), and I bought a new one...with a manual of barely 20 pages. I felt as if nothing was explained.

    Honestly, if I don't figure it out by meddeling with the interface I just love to get the full-featured manual and read it and follow instructions. For me it has worked with numerous VCR's and other appliances. Unfortunately, *reading* is something even 80 year old grandfathers don't do anymore because technology is supposed to be intuitive. :-(
    Call me oldschool...I'm sorry...

    --
    Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
  5. Intuitive interfaces by evenprime · · Score: 5, Funny

    The only "intuitive" interface is the nipple. After that, it's all learned.
    Bruce Ediger, in comp.os.linux.misc, on X interfaces

    --

    "Weapons should be hardy rather than decorative" - Miyamoto Musashi
    I think that goes for OS's too
    1. Re:Intuitive interfaces by mrdlinux · · Score: 4, Informative

      You didn't get it.

      First:

      • The Cookie Monster: Intuitition is not about knowing how to do something in the complete absence of any learned knowledge, it is knowing how to do something new because your brain has pattern-matched the problem with similiar situations you've dealt with in the past
      • Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary: Intuitive ... Knowing, or perceiving, by intuition; capable of knowing without deduction or reasoning.

      If intuition means knowledge without reasoning, then that knowledge must vary from person to person. Without clear logical steps there is no way to duplicate the intuition of one person in another person. All one can hope for is that the results might be the same, due to environment. How much shared environment is there between all peoples? Ediger thought it was breast-feeding, but even that's not so (admittedly it was in a humorous vein). Therefore, how useful is such a term as "intuitive" in describing interfaces? Absolutely useless. It is a buzzword, at best.

      Example: You are presented with a box and a plastic tube sticking out of it. What do you do?

      Next, try recursively following your examples and you will see why Ediger said what he said (and another poster pointed out that even the nipple wasn't intuitive!):

      First, you must abandon all your preconceptions. Make like Descartes.

      • A tablet - How long did it take you to learn how to write? Was it "intuitive"? Were you born knowing how to write, and use a tablet/writing surface? (presuming that this is what you mean, even)
      • A machine with one button that does only one thing - Button... hrm. What do I do with a button? Oh! They can be pushed! Great, I learned how to deal with buttons! Now I suppose I can generalize about all buttons, right? How do I put this shirt on ... hrm..

      In fact, the only conclusion I've been able to draw about the meaning of the adjective "intuitive" is that it applies to just about nothing but instinctive (ie. born with/genetic) reactions. Everything else you learned at some point. (Note, the noun "intuition" still has meaning: "knowledge without known reasoning", but you can't say a piece of knowledge is "intuitive" because there exists some person who doesn't think so--guarenteed) When most people speak of "intuitive" interfaces, they really mean "reminiscent" interfaces. Interfaces that remind them of ones that they've already learned. The question of designing a good interface is of designing one that can rely on prior experience, can introduce new concepts in a tolerable fashion, that communicates with the user well, and is efficient to use.

      Possibilities for box and plastic tube:

      • Suck on it
      • Blow into it
      • Bend it
      • Pull it
      • Push it
      • Cut it
      • Chew it
      • Step on it
      • Kick it
      • Pour something into it
      • etc...
      So which one is "intuitive"?

      Not that Unix/Linux people couldn't go a long way to designing better interfaces. But demanding "intuitive" is probably one of the reasons why it's taking so long. No one can code "intuitive" interfaces, if they can't even figure out what "intuitive" means! (Unfortunately, it looks like "intuitive" is coming to mean the ugly Windows interface more and more. It's now the most "reminiscent" for most people. So sad really, considering the advances that happened many years ago and were mostly forgotten.)

      --
      Those who do not know the past are doomed to reimplement it, poorly.
  6. users by Patrick13 · · Score: 5, Informative

    with all respect to your G'father, he has probably not operated enough electronic items to learn the "language" of electronic gadgets. The more he operates, the more likely he would intuitively understand how to use something.

    This idea is discussed in Donald Norman's Design of Everyday Things, which is a great book for UI people.

    Also, I have never seen the Tivo's UI, so it could be poorly designed... ;)

    --
    ::.. check out some Cell Phone Reviews
  7. Good UI quote... by Ian+Peon · · Score: 3, Funny

    Credited to one of my coworkers (who designs UIs), after pressing the wrong button on a shoddy UI:

    "ARRGH, do what I'm THINKING, not what I'm telling you!!!"

  8. UI is not that hard by Safety+Cap · · Score: 4, Interesting
    First you must understand that under no conditions will users read the manual. Ever. Save yourself the cost and don't even bother printing one.

    Now go build your system so that someone can use it without knowing anything. Also, make it so that an advanced user can get to the functions she wants without going through some idiotic "wizard."

    UI tests with actual users? What a interesting thought!!! Maybe someone should try that, too!

    --
    Yeah, right.
    1. Re:UI is not that hard by Watts+Martin · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I hear the "users don't read manuals" line frequently. It's an oft-repeated user interface design maxim, whose only fault seems to be that it's wrong.

      I used to use a word processor called Nota Bene, that's still being made (yes, it's possible to compete with Microsoft Word). I bought it in the DOS days. NB 4.5 came with a "quick start" booklet, a 900-page reference manual (!), and supplemental manuals for the bibliography manager and Orbis (basically a database query system that uses NB and text files as its databases). And a reference card, of course.

      Starting with NB 5, it became a Windows program, and the manual became a Windows help file. Take a wild guess what the main complaint about the new system was. Yep--no printed manuals.

      Nota Bene is an unusual program, but you hear this a lot if you actually listen to users of any program that has any level of complexity. A good UI means that a user can get going on basic tasks immediately, but it won't lead people to the more advanced features that require a certain level of education to use. How many Microsoft Word users know about its ability to place anchored text frames, or its inline equation commands (TeX-like, rather than using the graphic equation editor)? How many Microsoft Excel users know what a Pivot Table is? Or to put it another way, most of the non-programming computer books published these days are there to be the manuals the programs should have to start with. (One popular series is even called "The Missing Manual.")

      When you write "make it so that an advanced user can get to the functions she wants without going throgh some idiotic 'wizard,'" I certainly agree. But the advanced user has to have some kind of reference work available to become an advanced user. A good UI keeps out of the user's way--but that's not a replacement for user knowledge.

  9. Think VCRs... Think Ozzy... by FyRE666 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I know quite a few people who can't program their VCRs, and seem proud of their ignorance. These are not (all) stupid people, but it seems that anything even slightly technical is beyond the interest of most of the population. (I'm laughing here thinking of the episode of the Osbornes where Ozzy is trying to use his state-of-the-art entertainment centre: "Why is it you need f*ckin' compuer skills to turn on the f*ckin' telly!?")

    When something as simple as setting a start and end time plus a channel is beyond a large proportion of the population, it's going to be impossible to design an interface for TIVO that *anyone* can use. At some point you have to give up...

  10. The customer is always right. by ryanvm · · Score: 5, Insightful

    From a marketing point of view you're dead wrong. If you want to survive in a competitive marketplace you can't be telling your customers to RTFM. It just doesn't work that way. Bash Microsoft and AOL all you want, but part of their success is definately due to ease of use.

    There is no such thing as "too user-friendly". If someone buys a surround sound stereo system it's because they want good sound while they watch movies. They really shouldn't be asked to learn the intracacies of stereo system design.

    In the end, it should just work. If you don't make a product that's easy to use, somebody else will.

  11. It's called... by wo1verin3 · · Score: 3, Funny

    Microsoft Bob

  12. Biggest two problems: by UserChrisCanter4 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    1) Lack of basic knowledge or incentive to acquire it. I sell computers in your basic retailer setting, and consumers really are the dumbest, laziest people out there (in general, there are always exceptions). Nine times out of ten, a customer would rather complain that something is too difficult than take the extra five minutes to simply read a short section from a manual. I have people call and ask me how to connect, say, the line level plug to their speakers on the computer they just bought. Anyone who has opened a retail computer in the last two years knows that there is a big, glossy fold out "poster-size" page with a color illustreation of the three steps necessary to plug in basic cables. Square peg in square hole, blue trapezoid in blue trapezoid-al hole. Things 4-year-olds have already mastered. It also never ceases to entertain me when customers will readily spend an extra $200 to get a machine with four features they don't need just so they can have more RAM. "But," I'll say, "You can walk right over there and get an additional X MB and pop it in. Do you really want to spend another $200?".

    Problem 2: Easy-to-use is obviously subjective. I prefer a heavily hierarchical organization in everything. On windows machines, I'll typically have only 4 categories under "programs", each with sub-categories and sometimes sub-sub-categories, ie. Entertainment->Games->FPS->Q3. It makes sense to me and allows me to launch programs more quickly. It frustrates the hell out of my girlfriend, who prefers the "Giant alphabetical order list" of programs. Of course, her method is far more suitable on my iBook.

    So, to summarize: Ease of use still requires a little bit of education/effort in learning. What's easy to use for you or the interface designer may not be easy to use for Grandpa or my girlfriend or me. Allow a good degree of customization and configuring, but make those options obvious and easy to locate.

  13. Different Interfaces for Different Skill Levels by scotpurl · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Everyone writes one interface for every skill level. There ought to be different interfaces according to your choice, or according to what level of interface the system thinks you can handle.

    That last part's a bit broad, so I'll clear things up. With a normal PC, you've got CPU cycles to spare, and the computer has time to tell if you move deliberately for a menu choice, or if you're hunting for it, or if you keep choosing something, and cancelling out of the choice.

    For a VCR, the default interface should be as simple as the buttons on the front. If you read the manual a bit, it will tell you how to turn on the intermediate features. If you read a lot, you can turn on the advanced features. If you read waaay too much, you get to turn on the command-line interface that uses reverse-Polish notation, in Aramaic, but displayed approximately by using Turkish for vowels, and Cantonese for consonants.

    Everyone's not as comfortable with it as folks like us are, and because computers can do sooo bloody much, we should stop boring them, and give the computers more to do, such as providing different interfaces for different skill levels. We use short command interfaces with our kids and our pets ("Sit! Quiet!"), and much longer command interfaces with our peers ("Dude, nice frag!"). It's a very natural thing to do, and we ought to start allowing computers to do the same.

  14. User Friendly is a myth by oGMo · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Funny, we were just talking about this as it related to another post I just made. The thing is, there is no such thing as user friendly, at least the conventional meaning of the phrase. It all boils down to two factors:

    • Ease of use
    • Ease of learning

    The phrase "user friendly" comes about by confusing the two: somehow assuming that by being easy to sit down and learn with no work, something is easier to use. Then it's "user friendly."

    Unfortunately, this isn't how it works in the real world, at least usually. A tool can be built that is easy to use---powerful, flexible, suited toward the job; or it can be easy to learn---no training required. Usually the tradeoff for the latter is that functionality is limited, so the user isn't overwhelmed. A balance of sorts must be achieved. Most of the best tools lean toward easy to use, and rightly so: you're only a newbie for a very short time. You may be using the tool for the rest of your life.

    However, these aren't necessarily mutually exclusive, either. It is possible, in theory, to build an interface that is both easy to use and easy to learn, as long as one does not equate the two, or think that one somehow implies the other. Doing this is rather tricky though. A good example of such interfaces are those for simple tools which can be applied to a wide variety of uses (a hammer, /bin/ls, etc.). Another example is that some games tend to use: the dynamic interface, which starts with a few key options, and gradually adds more.

    Thus, "user friendly" doesn't really exist in the conventional sense, which equates this sense of immediate ease of learning with continued ease of use. Rather, ease-of-learning and ease-of-use must be balanced, and attaining something truly user friendly requires a lot more than having icons and a mouse, or fewer menu entries.

    --

    Don't think of it as a flame---it's more like an argument that does 3d6 fire damage

  15. User friendlyness isn't always good. by ThePurpleBuffalo · · Score: 3, Insightful
    First let me start out by saying that I'm an elitist in a lot of ways.

    Cars are probably the most user friendly device on the market. Just think about the potential reduction in deaths due to drunk drivers if cars were LESS user friendly.

    Now, let's go to the computer side of things. Grade school children are able to find images online and print them out because of the current state of user friendlyness. I've heard of "computer class" where this is taught and encouraged, while at the same time, children who use paper, scisors and glue instead are somewhat shunned. (I think Clifford Stoll makes reference to this in "High-Tech Heretic".)

    To a very high degree, user friendlyness removes control from the user and uses "logic" to try to make assumptions about what the user really wants. Just look at MS-Word and "auto-correct" which changes "Teh" to "The". (I had a classmate in university with the last name "Teh"... in the end I used vi.)

    Am I big on user friendlyness? No. I use console Slackware. I use vi. I drive a stick. Perhaps I like to know that I control the output, and nothing will happen except what I tell it to do.

    Is there anyone else out there that feels the same way?

    Beware TPB

    1. Re:User friendlyness isn't always good. by simetra · · Score: 3, Funny

      Yes, there are those of us who feel the same way. Last night, I met a Jackass who works for Microsoft. When I mentioned that I like open-source software, he said "Well, that's a nice hobby." Bastard. So we talked about this for a while, and one of his points was that with Windows, you don't have to fuss with scripts and config files. I said, that's exactly why I like using Linux, because I have total control over it - among other things.
      I personally drive a stick. I hate cruise control. People who can only drive automatics should be shipped off to Greenland.

      --

      "Would it kill you to put down the toilet seat?" -- Maya Angelou
    2. Re:User friendlyness isn't always good. by Planesdragon · · Score: 3, Insightful

      To a very high degree, user friendlyness removes control from the user and uses "logic" to try to make assumptions about what the user really wants. Just look at MS-Word and "auto-correct" which changes "Teh" to "The". (I had a classmate in university with the last name "Teh"... in the end I used vi.)

      The last version of Word I heard of that wouldn't let you add an exception for "Teh" (capitalized, even) was 6.

      I've used on an extensive basis (it's my primary job function) 97, 2000, and XP. 97 & 2k (and possibly 95) allow you to just hit the backspace, or "undo", to remove an autocorrect. XP's "smark tags" show up after *every* autocorrect, and you can, right there in that menu, tell it to never autocorrect "Teh" again.

      "User Friendly" does not mean "The user has no control." It means "The user doesn't have to wrestle with the computer," either through obscure commands that you need a manual to know, or options that you can't touch even with the manual.

  16. Different Types of Users by simetra · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's been my experience that:
    1. 90+% of users are incapable and/or unwilling to think. Regardless of how obvious the UI is, they need to be sat down and trained like monkeys to repeat a series of steps to accomplish whatever they're trying to do. They cannot, or will not, stop, look at the screen, and make an intelligent choice on how to proceed. No matter how plain and simple the UI is, it's like they had a part of their brain removed.
    2. About 5% of users can make decisions based on the UI to accomplish their goals.
    3. The remaining few percent, which we would call Power Users, have a decent understanding of how computers work, how files work, where they're located, how to find them. They know that if they're trying to open a file, they can usually do this by clicking File, and maneuvering down the menu. They can figure out that if their X: drive isn't opening, it's probably because they aren't logged in to the network. They can take a tip, and make a logical conclusion, like "Oh yeah, okay, then I can do this and this. Thanks." These users are very few and far between.
    Windows is great for the few who understand that there are common elements of (most) every application. Still though, it's that 90+% that will suck the life out of you every time.

    --

    "Would it kill you to put down the toilet seat?" -- Maya Angelou
  17. It's an underrated approach by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 4, Insightful
    This usually takes the form of a division into 'simple' and 'advanced' modes of operation. This is probably too niave an approach though.

    On the contrary; I think it's a powerful and much under-rated approach. The biggest hurdle for most people learning a new tool is (arguably) coming to understand the fundamental way it works. After that, the rest is often just details.

    For example, if I'm using a new word processor, maybe I learn that its formatting is broken down according to characters, paragraphs, etc. and where to find the dialog for each. Then it's not a big jump to work out how to make something italic (a simple task) or to set up the kerning (a more advanced one). In this case, it would be useful to have a simple UI with common options (open and save files, change the font, run the spelling checker, etc) and a full UI with the whole lot (revision marks, change the number of columns, configure the grammar checker, perform a mail merge).

    Personally, I used to like systems that worked that way. You could start simple and learn the big picture, and once you'd got the hang of it, switch everything on and see all the details. Then you knew everything was there and you could see where you stood. These days, everything seems to come with seventeen different ways to do the simple things and an options dialog with 100 different settings, most of which show or hide some feature if the menus aren't already adjusting under your feet before you start anyway (but luckily there are seven different ways to get help). Is this really easier to learn and more user-friendly, or just making a simple tool like a word processor seem far more complicated than it is? (There's an obvious commercial/upgrade angle here, but it's not really relevant to the issue at hand, so I'll gloss over it.)

    --
    If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    1. Re:It's an underrated approach by SpatchMonkey · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You have some very good points there, but just to pick up on the simple/advanced thing - the niavety is in there being only two different states.

      It's like splitting the learning curve up into two steps, when lots of smaller steps would perhaps be easier.

      Basically what I'm saying is that when the gap between 'simple' and 'advanced' is too wide, you need something else to bridge it.

    2. Re:It's an underrated approach by neuroticia · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The world is divided into two categories. Those who "get it" and those who do not. Those who "get it" understand that everything has a pattern and all they have to do is play with the gadget and read the manual/documentation and understanding will come. Those who do not get it are akin to those who call us over to set the time on their VCR without even checking to see if they could do it themselves. Those who ask us 200 times how to copy/paste and cannot remember simply because their mindset is that computers are scary complex things that do not make sense.

      These people are not going to be helped by simplification. These people are not going to be helped by hand-holding.

      There needs to be some sort of "mind building" curriculum for people who are afraid of electronics. I believe that people who are told a 3-step process (such as copy-paste) 200 times and STILL cannot remember are mentally defective and in need of rehabilitive therapy.

      Think about it. If someone is told even 10 times that "If you push the doorbell a bell will ring" and cannot remember it, you'll assume they are brain damaged and treat them as such.

      That's how I've come to treat my mother when she asks me how to copy and paste. Finally I took her to the local drugstore and made her copy a piece of paper. I brought her home and had her paste it onto another piece of paper. I then had her describe the steps she had to take to me by writing them down. If she skipped something like "Put the money into the machine" or "select number of copies" then I'd get confused and make her go back to the beginning. Afterwards I brought her over to the computer and said "There are no settings. There is nothing to remember. You drag the mouse to highlight the text you want to copy. You press the right mouse button and choose "copy". You move to the new document and right-click and choose "paste" HOW is that more complex than what you just did with the copier over at the drugstore? HOW is that more complex than tying your shoes?"

      She agreed, and then 10 minutes later called me over because she couldn't figure out how to copy/paste. She didn't even try.

      -Sara

    3. Re:It's an underrated approach by FFFish · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Your post really should be moderated up.

      Further to your post is that people form paradigms, and these paradigms allow them to "short-cut" their thinking.

      A common example is found in our cars: because they have been standardized, we expect certain things to remain constant: gas on the right, brake to the left of the gas, clutch (if there is one) to the far left. Because this archetype is so well-established, we can hop into any car (in America) and drive.

      But not everyone can pop the hood and make sense of what's under there. Their world knowledge, while it does cover the driver's controls, doesn't include engine mechanics. The rest of us, who know a sparkplug from an oil filter, can pop the hood on almost any car and begin to make sense of it... and not because the engines are all laid out the same, but because the *ideas* are the same.

      Recently, my understanding of car engines was used in measuring the valve clearance on my motorcycle. I'd never do such a job on my car -- too complex -- but just knowing how my car engine works, I was able to do the motorcycle job. Heck, now I've done the motorcycle, maybe I should do the car!

      Anyway, to bring this back to computers, the paradigms for computer use aren't any more obvious than those for car engines: one only learns them by getting one's hands dirty.

      If you gain skill with one wordprocessor, you can probably use most any wordprocessor without needing help. But to learn that first wordprocessor could be a hurdle: it's not much like anything in our physical world!

      And just as most people these days don't bother to get their hands dirty with their car engines, and hence couldn't begin to conceive of changing their oil, let alone reboring a cylinder, many people don't care to get their hands dirty learning the power-user aspects of Word, programming their VCR, or even using the full capabilities of their microwave.

      And who can blame them? These are all just tools: tools for transportation, for communication, for entertainment, for cooking. Learning the minimum needed in order to get by makes very good sense: it frees your time up for doing actual, important things. Like having a life.

      --

      --
      Don't like it? Respond with words, not karma.
    4. Re:It's an underrated approach by Bishop · · Score: 3

      I agree. The whole intimidation thing is real kicker isen't it. The people I hate are the ones who want to be intimidated. They feel superior for being stupid. How does that work? Compare this to my grandfather who seems to do alright despite being half blind[1]. Due to his handicap I think he looks at anything new as a challenge, and plesantly surprised when it isen't. Other people are probably pissed that a computer is supposed to be easy to use, as per marketing, but isen't. It makes them feel stupid. Those of us with more experience aren't intimidated, and when a computer dosen't work we think the developers are stupid. Maybe this is what we should tell users?

      Instead of trying to convince users that computers are easy to use do the opposite. Tell them that computers are a pain in the ass (the truth). Tell users that the user interface was "designed" by a bunch stupid punk assed condesending arrogant new hires whacked out on caffine (possibly true). Now when the user manages to remember the basics they will fell a sense of superiority and acomplishment. I am only half kidding.

      Regardless of the true complexity I often start off a mini training session with "I don't know why they had to make this so complicated..." It works for some people. Others are really stupid.

      [1] Setting up a computer for my grandfather is what started me thinking about how poor computer user interfaces really are. My grandfather has lost much of his vision, but can still read if the text is magnified to atleast 3cm/inch high letters. A typewrite has a small font. There is not much you can do about it. In theory a computer should be able to display any sized text even if there is only one letter per screen. Too bad theory dosen't work out. For many reasons it is much easier for him to use a simple magnifying lens then to try to fight with the OS and display big fonts. How peverted is that?

    5. Re:It's an underrated approach by BigBlockMopar · · Score: 3, Funny

      The world is divided into two categories. Those who "get it" and those who do not. Those who "get it" understand that everything has a pattern and all they have to do is play with the gadget and read the manual/documentation and understanding will come. Those who do not get it are akin to those who call us over to set the time on their VCR without even checking to see if they could do it themselves. Those who ask us 200 times how to copy/paste and cannot remember simply because their mindset is that computers are scary complex things that do not make sense.
      These people are not going to be helped by simplification. These people are not going to be helped by hand-holding.

      These people are gonna be helped by Darwin!

      They'll starve to death when there are no more bank tellers and they can't pay for their food because they can't figure out how to withdraw money!

      They'll freeze when the gas company cuts off their power for not paying their bill online!

      They'll run their cars into bridge columns because they're distracted trying to figure out how to turn off a rental car's air conditioning!

      They won't be able to find a mate because they'll never leave the house for fear of missing a TV show that they can't videotape because the VCR is so horribly complicated!

      --
      Fire and Meat. Yummy.
  18. You're a luser too by guanxi · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I'd guess that most people reading this, including me, know more about info tech than 99% of the population. It's easy for us to say that anyone who doesn't figure computers out is just not making an effort and respond with a 'RTFM'.

    But why don't we look at some fields that perhaps are not part of our aptitude. How much time and effort have you spent learning about,
    - a recipe?
    - fashion and clothing?
    - fine art?
    - your elected representatives (quick, name the ones in the State capital ... Wash DC? ... local judges? ...)
    - giving your girl/boyfriend a mind-blowing orgasm?

    Now, you may say, 'but these things aren't important to me; I don't have time for them.' And then you'll understand why all the 'lusers' don't RTFM.

    1. Re:You're a luser too by nobodyman · · Score: 5, Funny
      *I* know how to give a mind-blowing orgasm :)

      Masturbation doesn't count, pal.

  19. Logically Sound by yintercept · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I wish people would talk about "logically sound" rather than this completely nebulous concept of "user friendly."

    Look at Windows. A great deal of the garbage we hate in Bill's operating system was stuffed down our throats under the guise of being "user friendly." For example, changing the name directory to "folders" because directory has unfriendly latin roots. The actual result of this great "user friendly" move was Microsoft now stuffs the end user's data in a bunch of folders that you cannot find...making back ups harder. The goal of an OS should be to concentrate on creating a logically sound, secure foundation on which you can build other applications. But we compromise the foundation for an undefinable user friendliness.

    It is so funny. I see it time and again. People love the "user friendliness" of MS word when they log on the first time. A few years later they are pulling out hairs as they find their systems clogged with gigabytes of files, odd templates, virii and other mysterious things that happen with word documents as systems age.

    That really crappy registry thing we have to deal with came out with a great deal of hype about a "user friendly" registry replacing unfriendly ini files. Instead of coming up with a logically sound and versatile and extensible mechanism for recording intialization parameters...we have this supposedly user friendly monster that bites our tails when things go wrong. The only way we can deal with problems in the registry is to hope that some programmer somewhere was good enough that their 5 year old win 98 program will fix the registry problem with XP when you reinstall.

    The parent of this thread was "Learning Curve." The result of the user friendly movement has been to add a bunch of garbage to programs to get the public to a feel good level, but the garbage ends up blocking them from complete mastery, since you know have a garbage user friendly layer in the way.

    Instead of "user friendly", if you aimed at the goal of logically sound...you would find yourself with products that have only a slightly higher initial learning curve, but that people can master and build on. Take the threads about driving. The configuration of the driver seat has a nice logically sound foundation. It is driven by the logic of the vehicle and it works better.

    When you really have a sound logical foundation, the actual workings of the product is all but driven from that foundation. A phone is totally un understandable until you know the logical premise that you have to hold it to your ear, and that different phones have numbers that you must dial before calling.

    Imagine a car designed by the "user friendly" gurus of MS. A six year old could get it out of the driveway, but it would take a certified MCD (Microsoft Certified Driver) to get it back in.

  20. How the VCR Illustrates the Geek Gap by fm6 · · Score: 5, Informative
    Here's a conversation I have -- not a lot, but often enough. Some context: like a lot of Slashdotters, I'm the person everybody in my family, and a lot of their friends, turns to when they have a technical problem, from not being able to configure PC software, to programming an overdesigned digital watch with a poorly translated manual. I also explain things for a living (writing programming manuals), so people who are curious about basic details often ask me the "dumb questions" they're afraid to ask other geeks.

    Now, every once in a while I get asked this question: how is it that a VCR can record a TV show when the TV isn't turned on? Yeah, I can hear the snickers. But I get this from a lot of basically intelligent people. And the frustrating thing is, I've never found an explanation that makes sense to the asker. To me it's obvious, "You see, there's two tuners, the TV has one, the VCR has one...." But the eyes just glaze over.

    So the whole idea of Making Systems User Friendly is just plain bogus. It assumes that people can come to terms with any system if you just find the right methaphro for them to use. Doesn't work.

    In the real world, there are three solutions to this problem:

    1. You do a better job of explaining the basic concepts of the system to your users. But only a few really brilliant teachers seem to have much luck with this approach.
    2. You build systems that do a good job of hiding the unfamiliar paradigm with a simpler paradigm ordinary people can wrap their minds around. But again, this takes a certain brilliance on the part of the designer, who has to be at home with both paradigms.
    3. You take the Kuhnsian approach. That is, instead of trying to bridge the nerd-mundane gap, you wait for both sides to die off, to be replaced by big-thumbed folks who've grown up with the technolgy and have no trouble coming to terms with it.
    Now, you might think that solution number 3 is basically a cop-out. And I'd agree. But I think it's the solution that will be implemented -- by default.
  21. User Friendly? Ugh... by Kenshin · · Score: 3, Funny
    I think JeffK's explaination applies right now...

    http://www.somethingawful.com/jeffk/dr-episode1/pa ge-04.htm
    http://www.somethingawful.com/jeffk/dr-episode1/pa ge-05.htm
    http://www.somethingawful.com/jeffk/dr-episode1/pa ge-06.htm

    --

    Does it make you happy you're so strange?

  22. You're missing the point. by Nindalf · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This isn't about being interested or not. This is about people who clearly want the result but are unwilling/unable to learn the process.

    This isn't about disgust with people who say, "I don't want to program my VCR." it's about those who say, "The VCR is too hard to program, I can't learn it." Usually, this can be translated as, "I am too lazy/frightened to bother trying."

    In my experience, if you have authority over these people, you can easily make them figure it out. Without authority over them, they'll make weak excuses why they shouldn't bother trying. If they have authority over you they'll get you to do it over and over again, regardless how much of both your time and theirs this wastes. 90% of what computer class teachers do is say, "You have to try."

    It's a truly pathetic phenomenon. I could throw theories at you about why it is, but I'm not sure why most people's minds work that way, they just do.

    1. Re:You're missing the point. by guanxi · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It's not that I haven't shared your frustration, but I've noticed everyone continues behaving the same and I think there's a rational explanation:

      I think of it as a simple micro-economic question: Programming the VCR is worth 50 to them (50 of what, I don't know). Asking me to do it costs them 10 (and costs me 10). Doing it themselves costs them 100, so it's not worth it for them to do it themselves. If they learned it, their cost would decrease, but you can't learn everything -- and their cost of learning a new technology is much higher than yours.

      Which leads to another micro-economic concept: Specialization. They spend their time and effort learning about (e.g.) cooking and doing it; I spend mine on technology. We help each other out. It's much better than me cooking mediocre food and them struggling with their VCR. Also, they learn *new* recipes much faster and I learn new tech much faster.

      if you have authority over these people, you can easily make them figure it out.

      If only I had more authority ... Yes! the world should be ruled by all-powerful -- but benevolent -- geeks. Selected by their /. karma. Mod me up, and I will put a Palm in every hand. ;-)

  23. Re:Read? Why the hell should I read? by spasm · · Score: 3, Funny

    "The telephone isn't all that simple and yet more basic than you give it credit for."

    No shit. My sister in law asked if we had a phone where she could make a 'private' phone call last week; I directed her to the back bedroom where we still have a rotary phone. 3 minutes later she was back asking "so how do I use this thing?"

    She's 23. I feel old.

  24. Re:My god, that's pathetic... by Nindalf · · Score: 3, Insightful

    why couldn't this have been done cheaply 10 years ago with VHS in a vcr instead of a hard drive?

    This is the part you apparently don't understand. The TIVO uses a big, fast hard drive (a small corner of which is conveniently used for holding the schedule) and a cheap, fast modem. Ten years ago, these things weren't available. Everything to do with computers was about a hundred times more expensive, and that goes for all the gear at the other end of the wire, too. You'd have to sell an awful lot of these expensive things to pay for the schedule system. Remember that people had less disposable income ten years ago, too.

    Even today, the TV schedule thing doesn't and couldn't work everywhere, and it would be very expensive. The TIVO gives you all sorts of other functionality, and its main purpose is time-shifting TV shows, while a VCR's main purpose is playing rented video tapes (just as it was 10 years ago). A good programming interface is really not very important, and not going to sell a lot more VCRs.

    Adding a clock and timer to a VCR is cheap, simple, works everywhere, and easy to isolate in the device itself. It's not the main point of the VCR, but it's so cheap that it's worth putting in every VCR just in case someone won't buy one without it.

    Basically, the kind of technology that allows the more advanced interface also makes VCRs obsolete. If you're going to go to the trouble of making a fancy programming interface, with the on-board computer, and modem, and storage that requires, you're going to make more money going that extra step and selling a TIVO-type device. If you want a TIVO, get a TIVO, don't complain that your old VCR is not a TIVO.

    Another ten years from now you likely will be able to watch any TV show at any time. It's not hard to imagine a system that would make it possible, it's just too expensive right now, and too much infrastructure would need to be built.

  25. Einstein said it best by _|()|\| · · Score: 3, Insightful
    The simpler something is to use, the better. ... the telephone is top of my list

    "Things should be made as simple as possible--but no simpler." Put another way (by Larry Wall), it should be easy to do easy things and possible to do hard things.

    It's funny that you should mention the telephone. A receptionist transferred a customer to me by mistake. After fiddling with the "forward" button for a minute, I was forced to ask the customer to hang up and call again. I later discovered that my phone was an old model that lacked the "transfer" button. It required a "*" code to perform that function.

  26. Of all the places you could post this question.... by Malor · · Score: 5, Insightful
    This is really NOT the forum in which you want to post this kind of question. It feels like you had already drawn a conclusion "users are dumb!" and you wanted support in that conclusion. You'll get plenty of it here, but I don't think it will be very useful advice.

    A quick example... about three years ago, I commented that you should always use a UPS on a Linux box, because the ext2 filesystem was fragile. (there was much more to this, but in the interest of brevity I'll omit it.)

    So what did I get in reply? "You're a moron, you should be manually editing your filesystem when it's corrupted and using backups of the superblock." And other posters appeared to agree with him. I don't think I got even a single reply in support of my stance... that I shouldn't have to, that a properly designed fileystem wouldn't have these problems. I'll not repeat the whole argument. Either you will understand why this was a ridiculous thing to say or you won't. But the blame-the-user mindset was firmly in place... it was MY fault because I didn't know enough, not the fault of the designer(s).

    Read the book "The Design of Everyday Things". It is a great set of examples of how badly real-life things can be designed... and how a properly designed real-life thing should automatically guide the user into using it correctly. A door that pushes, for example, should NOT have a handle, it should have a push plate... and maybe a handle for the other side, because it pulls on that side.

    According to research, there are two basic ways that humans organize data and navigate through the world: "knowledge in the head" and "knowledge in the world". People who use the former are Slashdotters... they use their memory as their primary navigation device. They tend to trust their own memories over things like street signs and maps.

    The other type of thinker uses the world around him/herself to keep them organized. WHERE the piece of paper is tells them WHAT it is. They'll trust a street sign over their memory every time. They don't try to store the entire world in their head, and (this is the crucial part) they get confused when input isn't consistently mappable to output.

    A car is easy to drive for everyone because inputs translate to outputs in a simple, direct way. There are only a few states and only about five main inputs. Anyone tall enough to see over the dashboard can successfully move a car with an automatic transmission.

    For 'in the world' thinkers, however, a computer is a deep mystery. Inputs don't translate into outputs. In a car, if you push the accelerator, the engine revs up, and the car usually goes faster. On a computer, if you click the mouse, a zillion different things could happen, depending on where the pointer was, what mouse button you pressed, what program was running, or what the time of day was, or what have you. This means computers are HARD for 'in the world' types.

    That is part of what was so successful about the Macintosh. One button. Short menus. It's still complex, but the inputs map more closely to the outputs, and the onscreen cues make it easier for externally-organized people. The internal states of the machine are more clearly reflected on screen.

    Just because something is complex on the inside doesn't mean it has to be complex on the outside, too. A modern car is an exceedingly complex device, and it takes a lot of training to be able to repair one if it breaks... but pretty much any idiot can drive. (and, judging from what I see on the freeway every day, every idiot does. :-) )

    Computers can be this way without sacrificing their power. But it's easy to blame the user and ignore the problem when the solution isn't easy. Look at my ext2 experience. Back then, it was my fault. Now that we have journaling filesystems, it's obvious that a well-designed filesystem doesn't need manual editing of the superblock after a power failure.

    Likewise, we'll someday look back and realize that gadgets didn't have to be hard, we just made them that way. And it's nobody's fault but ours.

  27. Re:Of all the places you could post this question. by porges · · Score: 4, Informative

    I remember a web-site that covered the worst software UI's. I cant remember (or find) the site. It covered Quicktime, some IBM software and others.

    The Interface Hall of Shame, most likely.

  28. reminds me of "how does a radar detector work" by Preposterous+Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful
    When I was in high school my dad drove me, along with a girl from one of my classes, to some kind of academic event. He had a radar detector in his car, and she noticed and asked how it worked. More specifically, she presented a hypothesis, something like: "Oh, does it 'see' other cars and identify the police cars by their black and white markings?" (This was L.A., where police cars actually were black-and-whites.) Well, no, he explained, there's a reason it's called a *radar detector* ;-)...

    Anyway, the point of this is that it can be kind of funny what can happen when people's mental models of a technology device are mistaken. There are some interesting comments about this effect, if I remember correctly, in the book The Logic of Failure (author: Dietrich Dorner). It's amusing (and also hugely informative) to see how people get stumped by relatively simple technology such as a thermostat because they have a fundamentally incorrect mental model for how a thermostat works. It's a similar thing with VCRs, I suspect: Some people probably think that the TV "picture" (having no concept of signal that's coming in over the cable or the airwaves) is only there when the TV itself is on...

    --

    "Biped! Good cranial development. Evidently considerable human ancestry."
  29. on willful ignorance (and pride therein) by Preposterous+Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful
    I know quite a few people who can't program their VCRs, and seem proud of their ignorance.

    I think you've hit on an interesting social phenomenon. It's culturally acceptable -- perhaps even desirable in some circles -- to profess ignorance about certain things. I can't count the number of times, for instance, that I've heard people proclaim "Well, I don't really understand math", not with shame but with something approaching pride. (In case math-savant slashdot readers have a hard time relating to this particular example, try replacing it with something more personally salient like "I really don't understand women". In my experience, such a statement is often used as an incentive to bond with other people who feel similarly, not as a shameful admission.)

    Then again, there are things that it's not socially acceptable to admit lameness in. Openly admitting lack of knowledge of computers would probably be fatal in a forum like this one. Openly admitting a lack of knowledge about the mechanics of sex (once you're beyond a certain age / experience level) is probably something few people would do. (Though there is a Sex for Dummies book, so who knows -- I figure that's something you buy only as a gag gift, and you make sure that you get it gift-wrapped at the checkout counter!) Or ignorance of how to operate a motor vehicle (unless you're a lifelong Manhattanite, in which case it could be a perverse source of pride)...

    --

    "Biped! Good cranial development. Evidently considerable human ancestry."
    1. Re:on willful ignorance (and pride therein) by Bongo · · Score: 3, Insightful
      I know quite a few people who can't program their VCRs, and seem proud of their ignorance.

      I think you've hit on an interesting social phenomenon. It's culturally acceptable -- perhaps even desirable in some circles -- to profess ignorance about certain things.

      People have beliefs about things. The belief stops them from doing the things that other people do to get good at something.

      To be good at something you usually spend a lot of time and effort on it, practicing, learning with an open mind, and having fun. It's those actions (be it trying recipies, playing an instrument, or writing code) that make you good. But if you believe "I'm no good at it", then you'll just avoid opportunities to practice, learn, and play.

      So yeah, if people believe they "don't understand VCR's" then they are actually instructing themselves that the manual is written in Greek. Think hypnosis: "I don't understand, I don't understand, I don't understand..." That's how strong beliefs are.

      Now we all have beliefs, be they positive or negative ones, so it's not about calling some people "stupid". And the beliefs are very strong, and there can be a lot of fear associated with trying to break a belief. People will do all sorts of things to avoid having their beliefs invalidated, because there's a lot of security in "knowing" how the world works (how I belive it to be).

      (Living without beliefs is very freeing, but who wants to be free anyway?)

      So yeah, the interface and the user manual can go a long way towards being clear, simple and informative, but beyond that, if the user has a blocking belief, I dunno what you can do about it.

  30. Issues with the elderly, Psychology of aging. by Ilan+Volow · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The 80 year old grandfather's problems with the TiVO can be attributed to the fact that as people age, they experience a decline in Fluid Intelligence (their ability to deal with novel problems that do not draw upon previous experiences). It's not that the grandfather was stupid, or that he didn't read the fine manual. It was that his brain's ability to deal with a new situation that didn't draw on his past experiences was not what it used to be. When you also consider the decline in performance of short-term memory that the average 80 year-old experiences, it is really no surpise the grandfather had so much trouble.

    To design something for someone of that age, you have to draw upon their Crystallized Intelligence(the store of knowledge or information that a given society has accumulated over time). You might (if you're *really* a geek) be able to do something like rig up an analog alarm clock to the TiVO and expoit the grandfather's 30 years of experience setting alarm clocks to get him to successfully set the TiVO. Yes, he'll probably still need a TV Guide to look up the time so he can set it in the alarm clock, but the point is that the show will be recorded. It sounds crazy, but older adults often exploit their crystallized intelligence to create strategies that work around deficiencies in fluid intelligence.

    If people hack network interface cards into their TiVO's, why not hack Grandpa interface alarm clocks into them as well?

    --
    Ergonomica Auctorita Illico!
  31. Bottom up vs. top down by Mauddip · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The reason most UIs are confusing is simply put: OSes and UIs are designed around the system (bottom up), whereas a user approaches the system from the highest standpoint (UI -> top down).

    A user with no knowledge about the system workings feels he or she is constantly pushing a stick into a jar of what seems to be unchangeable jelly. Is it strange a user feels difficult to learn something like this?

    And to put this into the 'current situation': Windows has a more intuitive UI because many users have seen it 'grow'. They or their neighbors have worked with DOS or Windows 3.1 and have seen the 'system'. UNIX boxen and Linux has only been used by a select group of individuals and the rest has not seen it grow to what it is right now. That is why people feel that Linux or UNIX is less 'intuitive' than Windows is.

  32. View from the other side of the fence by Mr_Silver · · Score: 4, Informative
    A long time ago, myself and a number of other people would link to a chat based program ("talker") on their slashdot sig. It went something like this:

    uberworld.org

    That was it. In short, it's a like a MUD, except it's full of people who sit around (mainly students and sysadmins) and chat about whatever they want all day. It's proper name is a "talker" and it used "telnet".

    Now this is where the problem lies. I consider the interface to be obvious. You have a bunch of commands and help files called with "help" and it's all very easy.

    But the people logging in from Slashdot, just didn't have a clue. And by that, I mean they had no idea what to do. These are people who use UNIX all day long and yet they were lost.

    So I looked at the mistakes they made and I added handholding, better information, cleaned up the help files and stuff but STILL and this is the clincher: even then, people just didn't bother reading the information on the screen.

    Even when you first log in, there are a couple of pages of information that tell you what to expect. When you actually "arrive" in the main room, you get told of the useful help file to read. Before you register if you type a command wrong, it again points you to that help file!

    Most never even found the "say" command. They would log on, scrabble with a few commands, ignore the friendly points on the screen and the automated robot that pointed them to help files and in the end give up.

    In the end, I now ask people who want to link, to actually point to a website (see my sig) in an effort to stop people logging on and being rather clueless.

    So what am I saying here? Nothing can ever be too user friendly. But it's amazing (and sometimes amusing) to see that even those people who assume that they are cream of the crop when it comes to IT issues get totally and utterly lost using something that we have both 18 and 40 year olds using with little to no IT experience at all.

    The problem comes about when there isn't enough testing. We learnt a lot from the confusion of slashdot people, but unfortunately you get to a point where you just cannot do any more but hope that users think for themselves.

    (As an aside, if you can read and can handle telnet and some basic commands - you only need 20 odd to get started - then feel free to drop by and chat, website is here)

    --
    Avantslash - View Slashdot cleanly on your mobile phone.
  33. 'in the world' versus 'in the head' - not so by vldmr_krn · · Score: 3, Informative

    Your description of in the head thinkers being somehow better able to deal with computers than in the world thinkers is nonsense. I'm working for a husband and wife couple as a technical advisor. The husband is what you describe as an 'in the head' thinker while the wife is an 'in the world' thinker. The wife without exception has an easier time dealing with computer-related issues.

    A typical exchange between her and I would be something like her asking me how to do something in Word. She would start Word, go through the steps necessary to get her to the problem, and then with the info on the screen she would describe what she wants to do and what she tried to do that didn't work. If I ask her to describe something in the abstract, without it being on the screen in front of her, she will always insist that she show me on screen. She frequently makes comments like 'I'll remember what the problem was when I see it again' (meaning the document she was working with). The 'solution' that she wants from me is always how to navigate the interface to do what she wants, rather than an abstract explanation.

    In contrast, the husband when asking for help does so without looking at the monitor, trying to explain the problem in the abstract. I have to insist that he bring up the problem on the screen so I can show the solution because the abstractions I give him wouldn't have a referent in his mind otherwise. A typical example of the contrast is that when the wife wants to find a file, she immediately goes to her documents folder (this is on a Macintosh) and looks visually for the file she wants, with some broad parameters as a guide to narrow her search. When the husband wants to find a file, he asks himself what sort of file it is, and where in his directory structure would he most likely have saved it. He frequently decides that the file is in (say) 'artwork,' is unable to find it, and then thinks about it more and decides that it must be in 'images,' etc.

    The husband distrusts 'in the world' knowledge and insists on having everything in his head, while the wife distrusts 'in the head' knowledge and insists on dealing directly with the world. Neither is computer-savvy, but I've frequently had times when I spent several hours plodding along with the husband through simple problems, then spending a few minutes with the wife and having her understand much more complicated situations easier.

    So there's nothing about 'in the head' thinking that is necessarily better suited for technical problems. The intelligence of the person in question (i.e., their ability to effectively use whatever type of thinking they have), is the key factor. What you're describing above is an 'in the world' thinker whose resolution is much coarser than a 'in the head' thinker. There's no reason why an 'in the world' thinker would necessarily be unable to differentiate between a mouse click in one context and a mouse click in another. And there's no reason why an 'in the head' thinker would necessarily be able to.