Ximian Desktop Installer, Red Carpet, and MonkeyTalk

An anonymous reader submits: "Long-time Linux users forget what it is like to try to install something for the first time. Ximian has done a nice job writing scripts to hide the inner workings of a Gnome installation. TuxReports has snapshots of the Ximian installer. Do you believe that all Linux distributions should use such a friendly series of dialog boxes in order to attract more users to Linux?" Update: 07/14 21:13 GMT by M : Tuxreports has provided a non-PHP page for us to link to... whoops. Sorry about that.

Comments

Red Hat users note

[GigsVT]

If you corrupt your box with this Ximian Gnome, you will not be able to upgrade Red Hat without uninstalling Ximian beforehand, or manually replacing all Gnome RPMs after the upgrade.

This is something they don't tell you in all those "friendly installers".

Other things may break, such as the Red Hat Network, when a Gnome related updated comes down the line. Of course if you plan to only use Red Carpet after installing Ximian, then that's not a problem.

Re:Red Hat users note

[Anonymous Coward]

You can install Xmian Red Carpet without installing Ximian Gnome. That way, you can intall programs such as OpenOffice and update your computer with the latest RedHat security patches using red-carpet without losing the ability to upgrade Red Hat Linux.

http://www.ximian.com/products/ximian_red_carpet /

Re:Red Hat users note

[martinflack]

If you corrupt your box with this Ximian Gnome, you will not be able to upgrade Red Hat without uninstalling Ximian beforehand, or manually replacing all Gnome RPMs after the upgrade

If you use rpm -qa along with the --queryformat option and grep for vendor "Ximian" you can build a list of Ximian rpm's post-install and then ask up2date to avoid updating those packages. This is what I did, and it works beautifully. up2date keeps my base system humming and Ximian Red Carpet just updates the desktop components.

Try something like this to get you started:

rpm -qa --queryformat "%{NAME}\t%{VENDOR}\n" | awk '$2 ~ /Ximian/ {print $1}' | sort | perl -pe 's/\n/;/'

This is what my actual list looks like right now, although it may have a couple non-Ximian additions.

pkgSkipList=kernel*;ORBit-devel;perl-PDL;libvorbis ;gnome-audio;nautilus-mozilla;eel;eel-devel;libgla de-devel;mcserv;gftp;libghttp-devel;Gtk-P erl;libole2;gnome-libs-devel;gdk-pixbuf;gnome-core ;gnome-pim;libgal18;gnome-core-devel;libgtop;gdk-p ixbuf-devel;libgtkhtml16;pygnome-libglade ;gmc;mozilla;gtkhtml-devel;audiofile;gaim;pygnome; gal;libgtkhtml20;helix-sweetpill;control-center-de vel;ORBit;nautilus;libxml;ammonite;bonobo ;abiword;gnome-games;monkeytalk;gtkmm-devel;gnumer ic;xscreensaver;libgal11;libgnomeprint11;libgtkhtm l17;imlib-devel;ximian-menus;gnome-games- devel;ximian-utils;libgal7;bug-buddy;libogg;audiof ile-devel;libglade;rep-gtk-gnome;ximian-wallpapers ;glimmer;libgtop-devel;grdb;imlib;bonobo- devel;nautilus-devel;gtk+;gphoto;gnet-devel;libsig c++-devel;mc;libgal12;libnspr4;libghttp;libunicode -devel;perl-Parse-RecDescent;pygtk-libgla de;gnome-vfs-devel;GConf-devel;sawfish-themes;mozi lla-psm;ghex;oaf-devel;libvorbis-devel;control-cen ter;libogg-devel;libgal13;gal-devel;xchat ;g-wrap;gtk-engines;libgtkhtml13;red-carpet;gtk-th emes;gedit;Guppi;glib;librep;gnome-applets;gnucash ;libnspr-devel;gnome-print-devel;rep-gtk; xmms-gnome;gimp;ximian-doorman;dia;libole2-devel;g nome-pim-conduits;aspell;mozilla-mail;gdm;ggv;gnom e-libs;gnome-media;esound-devel;gtkmm;pkg config;gimp-devel;ximian-faq;libgal8;scrollkeeper; grip;gnome-pim-devel;gnome-vfs;GConf;xmms;mozilla- xmlterm;imlib-cfgeditor;pan;slib;libxml-d evel;libgtkhtml15;libunicode;gtk-engines-thinice;o af;gimp-perl;libgal6;mozilla-devel;sawfish-themer; gnucash-devel;gtop;gdk-pixbuf-gnome;gtkht ml;rep-gtk-libglade;gnapster;gnome-print;gnome-use r-docs;glade;librep-devel;pygnome-capplet;pspell;e og;pygtk;libgal14;gnomeicu;libgnomeprint1 5;pspell-devel;memprof;gtk+-devel;gqview;libsigc++ ;pygnome-applet;gnet;xmms-devel;librsvg;esound;saw fish;glib-devel;gnome-utils;pilot-link;

What would be even better is an up2date configuration command called skipVendor (or something similar) so the user doesn't have to make this list.

Why don't I just use Red Carpet for everything? Simple. They made a GUI and I can't cron red-carpet. (For these types of programs you really need a CLI first, then a GUI.) If a security patch for sshd comes out, my automatic up2date will grab it that night and install it. I'll never use Red Carpet for system stuff because I shouldn't have to babysit those type of updates.

My previous comments notwithstanding, I think Ximian is an excellent company and they make an excellent desktop, and I hope they do very well.

Easy is good for veterans too (TM)

[The-Dork]

I have used Linux for over 6 years now, from the Slackware days of kernel 1.2.13. Over the years, the installation and configuration of hardware, X, desktop etc. has become easier. But package handling is still not perfect due to failed dependencies.

Although I can always figure out what the problem is sometimes I just wish that somebody would take that burden upon himself/herself to make my life easier.

Ximian installs are good since I just need to select the packages and I am ready to go, though it has failed me sometimes.

Great, but has its downside

[warmcat]

Installing Ximian is sticky in the same way that Installing an updated IE on a Windows system reached in and changed operating system components.

I had Ximian on Redhat 7.3, then when I upgraded to the Limbo beta the installation notes warned of dire conflicts between unnamed ximian RPMs and recommended removing Ximian from the machine.

There is no option I could find to roll back Ximian, the same way that there was no option to roll back an IE upgrade on Windows.

In the end I used GnoRPM to nuke eavery rpm with .ximian in the name and was able to successfully update to Limbo. But it ate a couple of days threshing around.

Worth bearing in mind that Ximian is a major brain transplant for your OS and that may have impacts later. But on the positive side, it was very slick and the red carpet thing was nice.

But I am happier with the stuff in Limbo, it rocks!

Re:How do they make any money?

[kerskine]

Actually, there are two ways we make money on Red Carpet:

• Red Carpet Express, which offers customers fast, dedicated bandwidth for getting software updates.
• Red Carpet CorporateConnect, which is a hosted service that enables organizations to manage their own internally developed software in addition to getting updates of Linux, Ximian, and other software offered by Red Carpet.

Re:Well, it's already here in a lot of ways

[Anonymous Coward]

forgot one thing: when you type 'emerge gnome' you will download source packages and your computer will be useless for the next 8 hours recompiling.

i just dont get the gentoo system, why dont they have i386 binary packages?

already?

[MrVinz]

wow, something that people been yelling for years.. are they finally going to make things more user friendly? The ONLY thing keeping me from changing to linux (windows user now of course) is the userUNfriendliness.

Seen the setup of KYLIX? (Delphi for linux) that's how it's s'posed to be.

Cheers.

Hmmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

For fscks sake. The situation IS the same in Linux!

Obviously you aren't an IT pro either, otherwise you'd know about the likes of rpm and apt etc, and their handling of the "state" of packages. Stop whining about a problem that doesn't exist.

You're probably talking about a slick little package installer GUI (like the Winblows Add/Remove Control Panel), and guess what? Most distro's have one of those too.

Many apps are available as source with a readme or what not, but that's ok by me. Expecting *developers* to standardise like that is ridiculous, especially when many apps are cross platform and/or source only, and even Linux currently has about a billion variations.

If you want pre-packaged convienience go use a *distro* that provides it. That's what they are there for.

Re:no...

[xtremex]

Although, I'd prefer if Ximian had a command line option. It's a real pain to ssh in and export X JUST to update damn software! If they had a ximian-update -all option, I'd be in heaven..how is that harder??

Re:Take a note from Apple

[hysterion]

If the open source community wants to know how break into the desktop market, look no further than Mac OS X. Whether you like the system or not, in OS X is a *nix system that has a highly user friendly interface, excellent graphic-based package management, and all the other bells and whistles that the mass desktop market craves.

The unbelievable truth is that there is a project doing just that, and that's GNUstep. (See also LinuxSTEP, and the overview at GNUstep.net.)

I fully agree... To go beyond command line Unix, NeXT and its stepchild OS X set a alternative standard to the (unnamed) platform which (unnamed) others have been busy cloning (with great success, too). Here is hoping that observations like yours will finally create enough of a synergy...