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John Gilmore Sues Ashcroft et al. for Freedom to Travel
ChTom writes "John Gilmore initiated a federal suit today in CA Northern District against Ashcroft, et al, challenging the air travel ID requirement:
http://cryptome.org/freetotravel.htm
(Mr. Gilmore is a businessman, civil libertarian, and philanthropist. He was the fifth employee of Sun Microsystems, an early author of open source software, and co-creator of the Electronic Frontier Foundation, the Cypherpunks, the DES Cracker, and the Internet's "alt" newsgroups. He serves as a director on several for-profit and nonprofit boards. )"
Assuming this case isn't dismissed, my bet is the court says you have the right to domestic travel anywhere you like - by car or on foot.
- Necron69
I'm going to start up an independent line of airports and airlines, just to show 'em. Coming soon, you just wait.
--
fight global cooling
The site is Slashdotted, but assuming the description is accurate, this guy needs to get a clue. He's the worst sort of Libertarian and the reason that I do NOT ascribe to their philosophy.
You have no "rights" when it comes to using a private service, namely an airline. Airplanes are fragile devices, and if it enhances safety to insist that people identify themselves, then so be it.
This reminds me of an argument I once had with a Libertarian. He insisted that it was his right to fire guns at people -- right until he hit someone. Until then, no one had the right to stop him.
I wouldn't be surprised if Gilmore also insisted it was his right to carry automatic weapons onto the plane, as long as he didn't use them.
His right to travel does NOT depend on the technology used to travel. He is welcome to get in his car, on his horse, or on his feet.
Or, dare I say it, do the Libertarian solution: start his own airline without ID checks.
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
That's why the airlines never fought the rules, even though they are clumsy and inconvenient for ticket agents to enforce.
I defy you to cite one single example of a person being questioned and detained, let alone arrested, for questioning the legitimacy of an airport ID check. Seems you need to go back and read the article again, with special attention paid to tenses and assumptions made...
Think outside the... Hey, where'd the friggin' box go?
I believe that the airlines screen out their frequent customers and "pick on" their non-frequent or one-time customers.
This, i repeat this is NOT a joke. I am gonna murder the most wanted International Terrorist, Who makes that Operating System For terrorists, L*nux. Linus Torvolds.
This is not a Joke, DO NOT MODERATE THIS POST!
http://www.csmonitor.com/durable/1998/08/13/p3s2.h tm
Do I win?
Cypherpunks: Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics. Those who live by the sword die by the arrow.
In several places along the western half of Interstate 10 (California, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas), all cars must exit and submit to random searches. They're mostly looking for smuggling of drugs and illegal immigrants.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
"The reality of life in the US in the 21st century is that without ID checks and other security measures at airports, someone may fly the plane that you have a right to travel on into a building."
The reality of life in the US in the 21st century is that with ID checks and other security measures at airports, someone did fly the plane that you have a right to travel on into a building.
counterproductive?
Sounds like second guessing those that actually are fighting for basic freedoms. Of which the freedom to leave your home and travel to other places without harassment, suspicion and anal probes is a pretty basic one.
It is stupid to call this action counterproductive, unless you honestly think the grounds for the action aren't solid. Because people have been convinced that these measures are good and proper that people have to fight them.
Remember reason for a bill of rights was to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority. To protect me from the whims of distant leader or morally irresponsible legislature and ultimately from you.
How does it violate the constitution for a private company (airline) to verify an identity of a customer? If I open a restaurant on my land, I can legally and constitutionally check Ids of whomever I want before I let them in.
While I realize that the line here is blurred since airports are mostly taxpayer funded and not private, it is still true that ultimately the travel takes place on private airlines owned by private companies who can ask IDs of whomever they please for letting people on their planes.
Gilmore waxes in generalities about "travel in America" but this instance at airports is not the same as if the government stopped you in your car at every town and made you identify yourself. In that case, the car is owned by you, and so is the road, since you're a taxpayer. Therefore hands off, and rightfully so. But airplanes are expensive devices owned by private companies. They have a right to allow whoever they want in their expensive devices.
Why can't the privately owned airlines check ID to protect their expensive vehicles? Yes, the government is helping the process, but ultimately no American is being force to identify themselves if they choose to travel using their own means of transportation.
I've read through almost 500 comments here, and I still don't understand how showing ID at the airport is supposed to help improve security.
All that the ID would do is make the airlines able to say "We know who all of our passengers are" but that has nothing to do with security! Every single one of the hijackers on Sept 11th passed this sort of ID check. In fact the ID check is so useless that a couple of the hijackers had their visas renewed, six months AFTER they were dead. That shows you just how efficient the government is in even checking the lists it already has.
The real question that the government should be investigating is "Is this person a threat to the safety of the aircraft and the other passengers?" Knowing names isn't much help for that. Checking for any possible weapons is. To do that, the following steps need to be done:
- ALL baggage needs to be checked for the presence of any explosives or other devices that could be a threat to the aircraft itself.
- ALL passengers and carry on luggage must be checked for the presence of weapons or anything that could harm the aircraft or other passengers.
- All aircraft need to be searched before each flight for pre-placed weapons or explosives, or else sealed so that no unauthorized people would have access to the aircraft. aircraft sealed like that would still need to be searched on a regular basis, possibly as part of the routine daily maintenance.
- All airport personnel, both government and civilian need to have regular security checks. I would suggest a background check by the police before they could be hired, and then a physical search before being allowed into the secure area of the airport.
Anyone else see anything I've missed?
ill-informed opinion on basic rights shown by the vocal majority of this blog! It is truly scary. Everyone here needs to go to the ACLU web site now to download, read, and remember your basic rights here in the U.S.A. Start with the Know Your Rights phamphlet.
Meanwhile, airlines are pushing to give easy wave-throughs to business-class travellers, while harassing economy-class more. Of course, the 9-11 terrorists WERE travelling in business class exactly to be closer to the cabin.
All window-dressing.
An ID makes absolutely no difference to the security . The perps of 9/11 all had valid IDs. Some posters say that they had "deportation orders" against some of them; even so, it wouldn't have made a difference because airlines don't check against any 'deportation lists'. Even if they did, I can get a passable fake Drivers License for a couple of 100 bucks. And what does the gate attendant in, say, Boston know about an (say) Alaskan DL? They all look different! The airline attendants don't specialise in ID verification; they are ticket agents, for crying out loud!
what sort of identification do you need to present to fly your own plane from point a to point b in the usa?
i know you have to file some plans and what not with the airports and agencies involved. But do you need to inform them of the identities of the passengers and such?
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