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Red Hat Asks for UCITA Reversal

OSS advocate writes "According to this NewsForge article, Red Hat has engaged the services of Carol Kunze (ucitaonline.com) to try to convince the National Conference of Commissioners on Uniform State Laws to take UCITA back. There's a list of email addresses in case you want to send the commish a letter yourself." Red Hat's letter is a good start.

20 of 148 comments (clear)

  1. Not quite professional.. by Chexum · · Score: 3, Insightful
    IMHO, the linked letter does not look really convincing... At the least it does not explain, why is it bad to ignore open source. Anyone reading this not knowing about open source would not care about "open source communities", nor about Red Hat.

    How about reversing DMCA, shortening the span of software patents, reversing copyright lengthening, passing laws about *not* passing laws to enhance the *life* of businesses?

    --
    "Ten years from now, they could do it in a few seconds." -- The Racketeer of the Hellfire Club, 1993, Phrack 42
  2. I'm still waiting for ANY response to this. . . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Dear Senators,

    I am not an electronics engineer (as per having a paper degree), however I
    do engineer electronics that could be said to be equal to someone who has
    such a degree. I am an inventor, a musician, a digital creator, an
    electronics tinker'r whatever you would like to call it, the name really
    doesn't matter as much as the intent. I take thoughts and create material
    objects, it doesn't take a degree to do what I am saying. I would also
    remind you I am a vetran of the United States Air Force as well as I am
    currently a voter (libertarian.) Without creative folks such as myself
    and others like Henry Ford, Thomas Jefferson, you wouldn't even have
    electricity, lights, computers, and cars.

    Statements like the following by the MPAA, "in order to help plug the hole,
    watermark detectors would be required in all devices that perform analog to
    digital conversions." are not very carefully thought out statements, they
    worry me, as to exactly what is going on in my government and here is why.

    At least four years ago, I was heavilly into building electronics, I was
    engineering a device that converted from analog to digital and from digital
    back to analog again. (It was basically a digital audio delay.) I started
    with parts from old electronics that people had thrown out on the street. I
    have spent many hours desoldering chips, and parts from electronics which
    were discarded in this fashion.

    I have a full personal library of technical manuals (several different
    years) from Motorola, Texas Instruments, Analog Devices, Supertech, Zillog,
    Intel, mosteck, National Semiconductor and MANY OTHERS. Basically I can
    look up part numbers from nearly any chip and figure out how it works and
    what I can use it for.

    Durring the course of events I decided one day I wanted to build a digital
    delay for my guitar. There were many D2A A2D chips to choose from, flash
    converters, etc the list is endless. I won't bore you. To make a long
    story short I decided to go with parts from Analog Devices for my A2D/D2A.

    I ended up buying some parts from Analog Devices specifically part ADJ569JN,
    and I used some memory that I had laying around from all the parts that I
    collected. I had to build a counter circuit to make the ram work in each
    memory segment for each sample. A fully blown electronics engineer I am
    not however such an engineer can easilly verify what I say to be true. So,
    basically the MPAA want's someone like me to add a watermark detector to
    my digital audio delay. Well first off I do not care about digital
    watermarking, that is not my problem, that was not part of my design, and
    to be forced to learn how to engineer this into my design is...well insane.
    And anyone who passes or suggests such laws is also...insane. So, before
    you quickly dismiss me off as some wacko, I would suggest that those who
    push such bills and legislation are the true wackos. Where I would rather
    be more concerned about removing digital noise from the output (all digital
    circuits have noise) and figuring out creative methods of how to modulate
    the clock circuit for different sound effects, they *MPAA* would have me
    spend my time working on how to put their watermark detector into my
    circuit. Frankly with the lack of information (I had to buy books from
    overseas to explain how to do digital to analog and analog to digital) that
    is available in the United States I would warn those who would decide to
    pass such legislation that a.) unless your ready to nuke our economy b.)
    ready to make the purchase of electronics illegal. c.) have the brightest
    engineers leave the United States d.) anger the public e.) ruin music
    f.) ruin creativity by the future youth who take electronics classes in
    schools g.) probably ruin your own political career then do not pass such
    insane legislation. It is _not_ your place to make such decisions in my
    opinion since you are _not_ qualified.

    If your so smart to pass such legislation, answer me this. How many memory
    segments will I need to use from my 8x8 ram to incorporate digital
    watermarking into my Digital Audio Delay Device? Which pins does it need
    to be connected to on the AD7569JN? What CHIP (which has the digital
    watermarking in it) do I have to buy? How much does it cost? Who is the
    maker of said chip? What is the part number on the chip? Is it compatable
    with my circuit? Does this chip have any digital noise associated with it
    which will bleed into my device? If so how do I supress such digital
    noise? If your not ready to answer these questions, then your not ready to
    pass this legislation.

    I know that most senators and lawyers are not electronics (digital and analog)
    experts so what qualifies them to pass law on a technology they do not fully
    understand? Furthermore it comes to my attention that other bills like
    the SSSCA which have had their name changed over and over, are insane,
    poorly thought through, placing the burdon on the wrong folks to solve the
    problem.

    It also seems to me there are already laws against piracy, so no further
    laws are needed. Another thing that upsets me is how these bills slip
    through without even consulting the public, or letting someone like me
    vote, in many cases government websites are broken and feedback forms
    do not work, other times phones are busy, and nobody is around to answer
    them, and some political candidates have NO EMAIL ADDRESS! this is
    unacceptable. Forcing me to physically stand face to face in order to
    get my point across is bad. Forcing me to make political contributions
    for legislation is also bad.

    Although I am no longer designing electronics at this current point in time
    I may want to again. And I know that others like myself in the future will
    become interested in Transmitters, Receivers, Digital and Analog
    electronics, what in effect you are doing is pushing a new electronics
    law (A very stupid law) into the natural laws of electronics. Especially
    the young should be encouraged to get into electronics design early on in
    their lives. It keeps them out of trouble and away from drugs and alchohol.

    Another thing that frankly angers me is by passing the CBDTPA act you are
    condemning me for using Linux, which is an operating system that does what
    I want. You would be making the personal computer into some bastardised
    piece of equipment that plays mickey mouse videos, when I do not even want
    that on my computer at all. I use my computer to write code. In some
    cases the code can do the exact same thing my earlier discussion on the
    AD7569JN does. I do not want my resources being used by the media.
    I want my resources being used for what I purchased them for. And that
    is development. CBDTPA stifles development. It sacrifices the IT sector,
    at the expense of the MPAA.

    I do not pretend to have the money that the MPAA has. However is is
    unfair to destroy education about electronics and dumb down america.

    Which is, despite all, the BEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD!

    I may not live long enough to get back into electronics design again, but
    PLEASE DONT ruin the future because of a damned mouse.

    Thank you for reading my comments.

    1. Re:I'm still waiting for ANY response to this. . . by JamesKPolk · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Glad to know some senators cover their ears and ignore anyone whose education isn't up to their personal standards.

      Too bad we can't go back and rewrite the Declaration of Independence to say "All men are created equal, as long as they know how to spell," then rewrite the First Amendement to the Constitution to say "The right to free speech shall not be infringed, as long as everything is spelled correctly."

    2. Re:I'm still waiting for ANY response to this. . . by PastorOfMuppets · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Do you realize how unethical that is? It is a senators job to listen to all voters in their district, not just the ones with perfect spelling and grammar. Why don't you just throw out all the letters that express opinions contrary to your own while your at it?

      --
      If you don't have anything nice to say, shut up you stupid prick.
    3. Re:I'm still waiting for ANY response to this. . . by NumberSyx · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Absolutely true. I work as an assistant to a senator (hence the anon. post), and stuff like this just gets discarded before any "important" people even read it. Grammar and spelling count almost as much as the ideas presented in the letter.

      This is an incredibly elitist attitude. In effect you and the Senater you work for are saying, spelling and grammar are more important than the idea being expressed or even the person who is expressing it. Just because someone does not express themselves well, does not invalidate them as a human being. Being a grammar troll on Slashdot is one thing, but a US Senator and his staff should be interested in what everyone has to say, regardless of how poorly it is expressed. If you really feel this way and the Senator you work for supports this, then both of you need to find a new line of work

      --

      "Our products just aren't engineered for security,"
      -Brian Valentine,VP in charge of MS Windows Development

  3. UCITA? by blincoln · · Score: 5, Informative

    If, like me, you've never heard of UCITA and are looking to form your own opinion, a summary is available here:

    http://www.ucitaonline.com/slhpwiu.html

    --
    "...always new atoms but always doing the same dance, remembering what the dance was yesterday." -Richard Feynman
  4. Lobby group needed. by miffo.swe · · Score: 3, Informative

    Linux really seams to need a large lobby group that plays golf with the legislators like the comercial software industry has. Linux has a large and vocal group but a group without funds to lobby (put money in politicians pockets). There should be another way to reach to politicians but today money seems to be their primary goal in life tightly followed by power. One possible way would be to try and get the larger companies using linux (AOL, RH, SuSe, IBM etc) together into a group that looks after the interest of open source. I have a strong feeling that all the little companies combined into one entity can make a difference. Other industries have common groups that tends to thier lobbying need so it shouldnt be impossible for open source to have one either. I know there are groups out ther already but im talking about a group of companies, not individuals. Individuals are lucky if they can make even a blipp on the radar whereas if IBM and a group of other companies combined would make the radar look like a christmas tree.

    --
    HTTP/1.1 400
  5. More info on the UCITA by MiTEG · · Score: 5, Informative

    For those of you who (like me) have a limited knowledge about the UCITA, Infoworld as an excellent summary of what it is and the problems with it.

    What it essentially seems to do is make EULA's legally binding and allows them to be undisclosed until after the sale is made. It doesn't seem so much anti-open source as it pro-commercial software.

    --
    The future isn't what it used to be.
    1. Re:More info on the UCITA by RickHunter · · Score: 4, Informative

      You weren't around when this first came up a few years back, were you?

      Let me summarize why its bad for Open Source, then. It specifies that an EULA can forcibly modify practically any aspect of contract or copyright law, and does not have to be disclosed until some arbitrary point until after the sale.

      Okay, you think, all is well and good. Blatant power grab translates to more fear of closed-source software, which means more open source/free software in use. Right?

      Well, the problem is that this also modifies the 'defaults' for software and what can modify those. Namely, I seem to remember that it instituted stricter liability for software. Which can only be overrided by a shrink-wrap EULA.

      The GPL, BSD license, Apache License, MPL, APL, and X11 license, among numerous others, are not shrink-wrap EULAs. Totally different category of contract, in fact. Thus, there is no way for the developers of gcc to disclaim liability.

      As linked by other posters, http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/ucita.html provides a very good explanation of why this law is Bad.

  6. It's bad for all consumers! by Adrian+Lopez · · Score: 3, Interesting

    UCITA is bad for users of Free Software, but it's also bad for users of proprietary software. It lends validity to the concept of a shrink-wrap license, which means the software vendor can impose pretty much arbitrary restrictions on the use of a software package. Suddenly all those EULAs become legally binding contracts. All it would take to restrict your rights as a customer is a list of terms. It's way too easy.

    Just imagine restrictions on the number of people allowed to use a software program, or website terms stipulating that whatever you write becomes the property of the company behind the website. Such terms are not unheard of, and UCITA would turn these and many others into binding restrictions.

    --
    "In prison you just have to shut your eyes and take it. Here you have to shut your eyes and give it."
    1. Re:It's bad for all consumers! by altgrr · · Score: 3, Funny

      Suddenly all those EULAs become legally binding contracts

      cexx.org has a campaign for a Software Vendors' License Agreement somewhere - basically, you get the software vendor to agree to it (and I think that getting a T-shirt saying "By selling computer software to me, you are agreeing to the terms of the Software Vendors' License Agreement", and pointing to a website, is sufficient for agreement, providing you wear the t-shirt when you buy the software in the store), and it overrides terms in the EULA.

      Of course, I'm not sure whether it's legally binding, but it could be tried...

      --


      Like car accidents, most hardware problems are due to driver error.
  7. What's the problem? by aug24 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It seems to only apply where there is a *contract*, which isn't relevant to most OS Projects.

    It might be bad for end-users if it makes the "we offer no warranty whatsoever but we take your first born child" EULAs valid, but it seems irrelevent to those of us who never use them.

    Tell me how that's wrong...?

    --
    You're only jealous cos the little penguins are talking to me.
  8. clarification by Adrian+Lopez · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I said UCITA is "bad for users of Free Software" when I really meant to say that it's bad for Free Software in general (the FSF has a good explanation of it).

    Having said that, UCITA is indeed bad for users of Free Software. When Free Software authors are held liable for defects while software companies are allowed to disclaim liability (exactly the opposite of the way it should be!), both the developers and users of Free Software suffer. When proprietary vendors are allowed to create closed and legally inaccessible file formats, the developers and users of Free Software suffer greatly.

    UCITA is an immense threat to anybody who is not a big corporation.

    --
    "In prison you just have to shut your eyes and take it. Here you have to shut your eyes and give it."
  9. KISS Rule by N8F8 · · Score: 3, Interesting
    IMHO the letter doesn't hit the mark. Since UCITA and intellectual property rights are so difficult in the first place the letter should be short, to the point and easily understandable. Not to mention that the conference is in FOUR DAYS. maybe a little late to sway opinions.

    example:

    TO: NCCUSL Commissioners
    FROM: Joe Blow
    RE: Discussion of UCITA on July 29, 2002 at NCCUSL Annual Conference

    I am an Open Source software developer who is very concerned about the adoption of UCITA. UCITA seeks to unfairly tilt the time-tested balance in commercial law between the needs of businesses and consumers. Commercial law has weathered the test of time very well. With the advent on the computer era many special interrest groups have sucessfully lobbied to gain "special" rights for businesses that tilt the balance of Consumer Rights.

    blah blah Open Source is....

    blah blah here are the specific parts if UCITA that hard individuals rights and Open source business models...
    --
    "God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon, Marshal of France - speaking truth to power
  10. Tomorrow in the mail by Trepidity · · Score: 5, Funny

    Dear Red Hat,

    We have received your letter dated 29 July 2002 requesting that we rescind the UCITA regulations. Rest assured that we have been completely unaware of the deleterious impact these regulations might have on open source software; had we known we would never have adopted them at all. The Commissioners apologize for any inconvenience this has caused, and will now move to reverse UCITA's adoption immediately. Thank you for bringing these issues to our attention, and please don't hesitate to contact us again if you have any further concerns.

    Sincerely,
    The National Conference of Commissioners on Uniform State Laws

  11. But WHY is UCITA contrary to Open Source? by JeffMings · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I have read the articles here and on several other sites, and I've read many Infoworld articles over the past few years on UCITA, and I _still_ don't see how it is damaging to Open Source. As pointed out earlier, this page seeks to address the concerns of Open Source advocates, and does a good job of such. I have understood the dangers of large proprietary corps like M$ being able to turn software off and abuse consumers in other ways, but I have not been able to find a single credible reference to how UCITA will hurt Linux developers or users. Can someone post a rational and clear explanation using traceable references to UCITA language that demonstrates the potential for harm? I'm certain that many others would also appreciate clarification.
    Thanks

    1. Re:But WHY is UCITA contrary to Open Source? by Junta · · Score: 3, Informative

      IIRC, it not only strengthens the 'shrink wrap' licenses, but also sets a default liability. So just saying 'this comes with no warranty' in a file somewhere does not free the programmer of responsibilty. Commercial companies don't care as they are explicitly allowed to shirk this liability through their shrink-wrap license, but open source applications can't really have a shrink-wrap license, so no matter how much you deny liability, you are stuck with it..

      --
      XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
  12. Question about my own code by Mr_Silver · · Score: 3, Interesting
    I have a product that isn't open source but given away for free. You have the executables, you can copy it and give to your friends - you just don't have the source. In short, it's a free beer application rather than free speech.

    Now, I used a EULA (if you like) on my installer to disclaim responsibility if the program breaks and other various stuff.

    Now, as I see it (and please correct me if i'm wrong) the UCITA would benifit me because my disclaimers would be legally enforcable. If the UCITA went away, then I would be stuck in a rather tricky situation where I could be held liable for all the stuff that my licence disclaims.

    Or am I wrong? Can someone please explain how the UCITA would appect the hobbyiest programmer like myself that doesn't use the GPL (and hence doesn't distribute source).

    --
    Avantslash - View Slashdot cleanly on your mobile phone.
    1. Re:Question about my own code by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      Now, as I see it (and please correct me if i'm wrong) the UCITA would benifit me because my disclaimers would be legally enforcable. If the UCITA went away, then I would be stuck in a rather tricky situation where I could be held liable for all the stuff that my licence disclaims.

      Actually, the UCITA contains more stringent laws on when you can disclaim a warranty, and the length to which you can do so. It does enforce EULAs (to an extent), but it also forces particular warranties onto all software, for which the distributor, publisher, and/or developer will be held responsible.

      In other words, UCITA states that your disclaimers of warranty may not be legal at all, and that you may still be held responsible. Of course, the letter and most of the comments here haven't really pointed out that which is the most common issue for open source developers (since the GPL and most other open source/free licenses disclaim all warranties).

  13. Unless... by gillbates · · Score: 3, Informative
    You include a click-through license that states:
    1. That you are in no way liable for any damages the software may cause;
    2. That in the event of litigation, you, the end user, agrees to pay all of the defendant's legal fees, transportation costs (if any), costs due to lost time, etc... (Microsoft used a variation of this in their license agreements)
    3. That you, the end user, agrees that since the software is provided for free, you have no expectations regarding merchantibily or fitness for a particular purpose.

    What the UCITA does is make the click-through and shrinkwrap licensing have the force of law. Though I don't like this prospect, it can be used to keep free software authors out of legal trouble.

    --
    The society for a thought-free internet welcomes you.