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Carmack Expounds on Doom III
Rainier Wolfecastle writes: "Non-high-end-comp-owning geeks rejoice! GameSpot is reporting that John Carmack has confirmed that Doom III is Xbox-bound. Carmack said that id is totally commited to bringing the game to Microsoft's console with its visual splendor intact. Best of all, the game could be available on the Xbox as soon as May next year." And Warrior-GS writes: "John Carmack gave a two-hour presentation about Doom 3 and engine technology. GameSpy reports on the presentations and analyzes Carmack's comments and how they apply to the future of gaming. There is also a look at the demo of Doom III"
The folks here managed to record the audio of carmack's speech despite the "no audio, no video" policy (who knows how they snuck it in!).
enjoy!
Before anyone accuses Carmack of selling out to Microsoft, please keep in mind that his wife is really hot and he owns his own aerospace company. He doesn't have to sell out to anyone.
[o]_O
... I think I need to change my underwear.
Anyone got a cigarette?
My own pointless vanity vintage computing page
Well I'm sure it would just be a matter of dropping some of the rendering options. One thing though I read that doomIII is not going to support sound acceleration hardware in the pc, while the xbox version will (could be because its not standardized enough on the pc or something I don't know)
Does this mean that JC (John Carmack, not the other one) has caved in and will be using Direct3D, or can he use OpenGL without Microsoft throwing a fit?
Computer Science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes. --E. W. Dijkstra
There will still be scaling issues, where the world is big and a lot of it is contributing to the image onscreen. Level of detail processing can help, but there are situations where you have to examine an excessive amount of geometry. One of the worst cases is a detailed city street, where you can see many blocks ahead and there are lots of trees, signs and whatnot that can obscure surfaces further away. Doing that well requires grinding through a lot of geometry. An insane amount of CPU time went into those long views down streets in Toy Story. All those houses have full detail. Game designers currently avoid such situations. Most driving games are laid out so that you never look down a really long street. And fog is your friend. It's still going to be a while before we have architectural-flythrough quality for long views in urban areas in real time.
Then again, a background process rendering billboards of distant street sections...
Funny, I thought MS created the XBOX to move gaming away from PCs. Turns out that PC games are keeping the XBOX alive.
Developers that only make console games will always make games for the PS2 because of the bigger market. Developers that make PC games however, will rarely make PS2 games, because the hardware is different and its difficult/impossible to port. PC games like Doom III and Morrowind will keep the XBOX alive simply because they aren't/won't be available on PS2.
It looks like MS's only hope of growing their market share to compete with Sony is to cozy up with the PC game developers. How ironic.
More than likely, anyone with less than a Geforce3, or Radeon 8500 (i.e. has programmable vertex and pixel shaders and DDR memory), 128mb or ram, and ~750mhz will not be able to play this game at playable frame rates. Or they could just change the resolution down to 512x384 and live without all the nifty vertex/pixel shading.
So be thy forewarned all those with GeForce2 MXs, Rage 128s, and integrated graphics, upgrade or don't try to play this game.
does this mean that possibly the game will be published on DVD discs for the PC as well, being that it sounds like it would need that much space, versus like a 4-6 CD set?
Jesus saves souls and redeems them for valuable cash prizes
disclaimer: I do not own an XBox. I sell them, have played extensively with them, but do not as of yet own one.
I don't see the point of FPS's on XBox. Granted, I've played Halo, got through most of the beginning levels, but it still nags at me that I could be a order of magnitude better at it with a simle keyboard and mouse.
Now games like DOA3, NFL 2K3, stuff like that, rightly deserves to be on a console, it is easily (and in the case of the former, recommended for play) on a gamepad. Give me a keyboard and mouse option, and I'll be a happy guy.
You didn't read the article. There are awesome physics going in there, including enemies falling down stairs when killed, and more realistic box movement among other things.
Don't be an ignoramus. Read the damned article next time before you shout your mouth off about something. If you think that Doom 3 is 'incremental', you're certainly not the person who should be talking about it.
This, of course, explains why they brought an awesome writer in for the story (the guy who wroite The 7th Guest), and also why they brought one of the most talented artists in the industry in for the music, right?
I agree. Interface problems make XBOX (or GC, or PS2, or GB...) a silly platform to make FPS games for. It'd be like bumper car racing with a series of light switches as your controls. Heh.
If they were to take Doom III and make it more like Zelda for the N64, they could create more value in the game by making it an adventure game. It'd be cool if they did that with the franchise. It'd be like an action version of Resident Evil.
"Derp de derp."
"i heard that it will be available for ps2 but gfx wont be as good as on pc/xbox because ps2 isnt powerful enough..."
I'm going to have to defend Mr Emir here. What he said is not flamebait, it's the truth. The pS2 has bottlenecks that render it impossible to achieve the same visual quality as the XBOX with this game. It's too RAM heavy. It's widely known that the PS2's texture buffer is very slim compared to XBOX or even GameCube. The fact that it doesn't have texture compression doesn't help it either.
The PS2 could get a version of it, but it'll definitely be noticably worse than the XBOX version. Call it flamebait if ya like, but I find it ridiculous to believe that anybody'd disagree with me. The PS2 wasn't built for that!
"Derp de derp."
Am I the only one that absolutely HATES playing an FPS on a console? I don't understand the popularity that games like Halo, Half Life and Quake have had on various console systems...it's just not the same level on control if you're not playing with a mouse and keyboard. Maybe I'm just too stuck in my ways to learn a new method of control, but I simply can't enjoy those types on games on consoles.
The only games I can enjoy on a console are platformers (Sonic, Jak and Daxter, etc), sports games, racing games, and fighting games (mortal kombat, virtua fighter, etc)
So, is it just a matter of getting used to the controls for FPS-type games on consoles or am I do I actually have a point?
This message brought to you by the Council of People Who Are Sick of Seeing More People.
Before someone writes that smug, self-righteous, "there have been no gameplay advances in years" post let me head them off at the pass by saying two words.
Your wrong.
I can't believe the incredible about of really good and *different* 3d shooters I have played in the past 3 years. They are too numerous to mention. There is Counter Strike's complete revolution of internet play (buying weapons instead of them just laying around, asymmetric goals, mission based play, etc). There is System Shock 2's and Deus Ex's mixing of shooter and RPG. There is the Thief's series and Deus Ex's use of stealth (more in the Thief series obviously but you could go through a good bit of Deus Ex w/o firing a shot). One of my favorite 3d shooters of the past couple years is Jedi Knight II which is the most immersive games I have ever played. I felt like I was a Jedi. The list goes on and on.
So before you comment on the supposed sad state of gaming, try playing some games first.
Brian Ellenberger
That won't be anytime soon. If they hold to their past conventions the post Doom III engine will have to be out for a year or two. There certainly is nothing that says they HAVE to GPL anything. Let's just be grateful they've released what they have and be nothing but overjoyed if there is more.
It will be interesting to see if the PS2 also gets Doom III
...but realize that you're looking at ports of various FPS from the computer to a console.
Consider games such as Turok and Golden Eye for the Nintendo 64, or Metal Gear Solid (2) for the PlayStation (2.) All are prime examples of FPS that worked well on the console, because they were *designed* for a console.
The gamplay in all 3 are different from that of computer games to compensate for the little console joysticks and lack of control flexibility.
You'll find that many console games make shitty PC ports for exactly these reasons.
I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying about MS being a monopolist. However, that does not automatically make XBOX some strange attempt to enforce that monopoly. MS invested in a new market the same way Sony did, and it could really pay off for them. However, it's really not clear how using Direct3D instead of OpenGL could possibly have a bigger benefit to them than a successful game machine like Playstation.
Take off your "I hate MS" T-shirt for a minute and think about it.
"Derp de derp."
Well, there is a "Death to Bill Gates" t-shirt on underneath...
pr0n - keeping monitor glass spotless since 1981.
It's really sad. I'll play against my friend in games like Red Faction... and when he wins (like every time) he gloats forever about kicking my ass... then I challenge him to a real game of Urban Terror (Quake III Mod -- www.urbanterror.net) but he doesnt want to play.
... which will cost the same as an XBox, so if you already have a decent PC... and dont have an XBox... which are you gonna choose? Hmm ?
I feel like a robot playing an FPS on on the controller. It's the same thing as playing a racing game... you wouldn't steer your car around town with left and right BUTTONS? So why would you try an aim a gun (and move around) with just directionals?
I'm sorry, but ever since I learned such tricks as circle-strafe and rocket-jump... I refuse to play without a mouse (and now I have "The Claw" as well)...
I just laugh at anyone who considers themselves a serious gamer, yet those games consist of Halo, and Max Payne (for PS2)... etc...
Blah... by the time this game comes out it will look about 50 times better with the latest GeForce 5 SUPER GTS PRO
I rest my case...
The first Turok game (I actually never played the subsequent releases so I have no idea how their controls worked) actually had the best default FPS control scheme I've ever used on a console.
The four yellow "C" keys controlled your forward, back, and strafe, while the control stick moved your head around just like a mouse. The N64's control stick has great freedom of movement, I find the Xbox's and PS1/2 to be clunky and not very sensitive.
I've found that messing with the button config. can help, especially if a game actually lets you reconfigure each control specifically the way you want, rather than giving you 4 or 5 "layouts", you can usually get a manageable combination.
No sig for you!!
With the Xbox, there is no reason to not enjoy your FPS gaming, because they give you two separate axis: one for looking (the right thumbstick), and one for moving (the left thumbstick). If you use the triggers for the most often used commands, you get the same utility as L / R on the mouse. Both sticks are also clickable on the Xbox, and the dpad and other buttons function as the rest of a limited keyboard.
:)
Even older systems can also be fun. I have some games on the Dreamcast that are really fun to play, even though the controls aren't exactly what I'd expect on a computer. Although I own a DC mouse and keyboard for Quake 3
Any hassle of learning the controls of a game are made up for because I'd have to do it anyways on a PC, plus I don't have to reboot or install anything or deal with drivers, etc. It Just Works (TM).
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Internet Explorer (n): Another bug -- that is, a feature that can't be turned off -- in Windows.
"but it still nags at me that I could be a order of magnitude better at it with a simle keyboard and mouse."
To the kid down the block who grows up using these controls, he will say the same thing about "clunky mice and keyboards" because they aren't what he grew up with.
Momentum is a big thing. Because computers had upgradably 3D rendering first, a lot of people learned to 3D game on the interface of a computer. Watch the people who learned PacMac on a computer, or NetHack. They'll be way faster at it than a person holding a D-pad.
But if you think about it, keyboard + mouse isn't the best because the keyboard is designed for text entry, not gaming. So the button layout is no where near optimal for (say) mode selection, view changes, static directional changes, etc. A truly good 3D FPS setup would be twin control sticks with buttons, something like the VirtualOn twinsticks, allowing you to control each side of your character individually.
--
Internet Explorer (n): Another bug -- that is, a feature that can't be turned off -- in Windows.
They've already got the desktop locked up (market-wise & regular crashes
Not quite the same as Sony. At least the Playstation was a somewhat original, innovative platform in its day. The XBox is literally just a low end PC (by today's standard) with a hot graphics card, albeit with a restrictive BIOS/firmware.
MS is losing $ on XBox hardware sales. If the LinuXBox people can get Linux running reliably on the XBox, thousands of geeks like us will probably rush out to buy an XBox for decent priced, small sized Linux boxes. If they don't buy any games, MS won't make up their losses, and lose their bid to control yet another market.
Well, that's it. It's officially cheaper for me to buy an X-Box and Doom III for the X-Box than it will be to upgrade my current machine and buy Doom III for the PC.
My machine is not old or creaky by any means, but looking at the hardware specs, if I really want to play Doom III, it just saves a lot of money to buy the X-Box version instead.
Part of me wonders if that wasn't part of the plan all along.
... IMO, naturally.
Why do I think this? Pretty simple, actually- on the console, you have one control interface- the control pad. Nothing else. I "grew up" on Doom and Quake, playing on my own terms- I lovved using the keyboard, and never thought to bother with the mouse. Then I played halflife on the school LAN with a bunch of FPS-whores who did pretty much nothing else, and got REAMED. I noticed all of them were using the mouse.... fat lot of good that does me! I use trackballs on my desktops and spend most of my time on a laptop... the mouse is simply not an option, and games don't control for shit with a t-pad or t-ball.
Enter the console- all of the control is unified into one single entity, as opposed to split into two. Key commands are a hell of a lot easier to enter, you don't have to worry about your hardware being "good enough", and your wrists aren't going to explode- I've gone for upwards of 12 hours on console controllers without any kind of RTS, whereas the equivalent on a PC setup will leave me sore well into the next day.
The only thing that blows goats about console FPS is the frigging multiplayer- for some reason game designers think it's a good idea to split the screen into quadrants, rather than push the idea of linking several systems together (a la the Jaguar or the PSX link cables). That's the one advantage FPS has on the PC- you have the screen entirely to yourself.
And in my happy little world, I have the GAME all to myself- it's not worth the frustration of my slow reflexes getting me REAMED by some twitch-monkey who's overclocked his mouse.
"Not quite the same as Sony. At least the Playstation was a somewhat original, innovative platform in its day. The XBox is literally just a low end PC (by today's standard) with a hot graphics card, albeit with a restrictive BIOS/firmware."
If that's true, how come it is having such an easy time competing with the PS2 or GameCube?
Sorry but I'm just not buying this whole 'internet appliance' story. There is no web browser with the XBOX. There is no mouse and keyboard. There is no XBOX version of Office. Wanna know why? It's because it's a game machine. They're not going to extend their monopoly with it. They're going to make money off it by selling games.
The only reason people think this is because they watched Robocop one too many times.
"Derp de derp."
Well, I've heard that MS builds each XBox at a loss.
:)
If you pay $199 for an XBox and MS pays $150 for you to take it, and you spend $30 on a modchip and $60 on Doom3, Microsoft in no way can make up the money you cost them
GPL Deconstructed
Does the game's map editor still use the same executable as the actual game?
Having seen only screenshots of both...
I have to say two words:
Dynamic lights.
In that lights react to moving objects and moving lights affect the environment. So that lights cast through the branches of a tree shimmer and ripple asthe leaves move, which isn't possible in any other engine yet...
That, at least, is the hope.
We'll see how close iD gets next year when Doom3 comes out.
GPL Deconstructed
I risk of answering incorrectly for the Carmack, but here goes:
:) I'm not trying to be glib, but I've only heard that type of statement from folks who don't do a lot of programming.
:)
Why not keep the API static as much as possible across engine releases? Divorcing the API from the engine would increase the shelf life of the content creation paradigm, if that is a goal.
Nope, nadda, can't do it. What you're asking is for a software system designed such that it meets future requirements. What are those requirements? I'll tell you what they are: they're impossible to know! You certainly can future-proof a design *cough* X11 *cough* but to do so is difficult, time consuming, and sacrifices the current system for a nebulous one.
It also paints the developer into a corner as they've invested so much time in an existing system that they are unable or unwilling to wipe the slate clean and start over when they should (apologies for the mixed metaphor). Nine times out of ten, when the future requirements are eventually known, they don't match what the developer thought they would be, which leads back to square one (where you've lost all that time future-proofing the original system!) or it leads to a new system shoe-horned with invalid assumptions.
Having said that, I think it's clear that id is getting at least a modicum of content reuse. They've reused sounds and graphics between Doom and Quake versions quite liberally in the past. I don't think that really applies in the context of the new engine, but I'd be surprised if they weren't reusing at least some of their existing tools/textures/sounds/whatever.
Ta Da! Instant upgrade for yesterday's game.
You don't work in the software field, do you?
Will not the next generations of hardware support another SW layer if required?
Of course, yes they will. The problem is in that extra software layer because it adds development time and bloat to the application that is very, very performance sensitive as it is.
This would serve to greatly reduce application development timeframes and costs, maximizing the amount of cool games in my hands (CFOs read "profits").
The methodology of creating a phenomenal game engine, releasing a flag ship product on of it, and subsequently licensing it to other game developers has worked very well for id software up until now. They all have Ferrari's, you know, and the lead programmer is the CEO.
Don't include the PS2 in your assumptions here. IT actually has a very nice usb keyboard and mouse, thank you very much.
The current X-box or the next X-box???
And if the current X-box... Absolute minimum gives the engine a lot of room to move given the difference between Quake III at low detail 640x480 and high detail at 1600x1200.
In other words, having a low bottom end does not necessarily hold back having an insanely good top end.
If voting were effective, it would be illegal by now.
They now have a large share of the low to mid-range server market, to the point that many clueless managers don't know alternatives exist. They also have a foothold in the handheld/PDA market.
The greatest trick the devi... Microsoft ever pulled was convincing the world h... alternative software didn't exist.
--
"I'm surfin the dead zone
In the twilight, unknown"
Everybody will play with the same hardware, so it really comes down to hardcore gaming skills, you cannot blaim the hardware for loosing frags (till a certain degree ofcourse because it still is an Xbox)
(also the home of arj and other odd archivers that are still not as good or just as good as gzip+tar, too bad they've never heard of bzip2).
Yeah... nothing like stereotypes or popular thought to cloud hard facts, eh?
In the Sound (WAV) Compression Test on compression.ca the GZip 1.2.4 + TAR combo comes in at 7.29b/B (91%), bzip2 0.9.5d + TAR is at 7.01b/B (87%). RAR on the other hand, comes in at 5.65b/B (70%) and Monkey's Audio 3.96 rocks in at 5.01b/B (62%).
So my 10mb of WAV takes up 9.1MB after being GZiped and 7.0MB after compressing it with that odd archive that [is] still not as good or just as good.
GZip and bzip are *excellent* compression tools. But they are not - and have not been for a long time - the kings of the hill.
I bought a new Quake III for the Dreamcast for about $7 last week - and the DC itself is dirt cheap. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if you could buy a DC + QIII combo for only a few dollars more than the cost of this thing on the Xbox.
Plus you can also run Linux and lots more besides on your DC.
"How did he turn around so fast?"
"I don't know."
Or when Taco Bell wins the chain-wars.
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
Yeah, if you want to go out and buy them. Heh.
"Derp de derp."
"It's not, and you are either a fool or a idiot if you think the Xbox is. "
Graphically, numbnuts! Didn't you read the context?
"The XBox is literally just a low end PC (by today's standard) with a hot graphics card"
I was responding to this, you might have seen it if you had actually READ my post. I did quote him! I was saying the graphics on the XBOX are on par or well above PS2 or GC. I did not say: 'The XBOX has a large market!' I did not say 'It poses a threat to the PS2 and the GameCube market because it is in the same market!' and I am definitely not the idiot here.
It's amazing how heated people can get in a video game debate. It's also amazing how they read a line in a magazine and act like they're an expert all the sudden.
"Derp de derp."
Or you can plug in the usb keyboard and mouse you already own. Standard usb ports are there along with iLink... look before you leap man.
"Or you can plug in the usb keyboard and mouse you already own. Standard usb ports are there along with iLink... look before you leap man. "
I don't own a USB keyboard. And my mouse is staying on my computer cos I have to dig down behind it to grab it.
Practicality first.
"Derp de derp."
B'sides, why play Doom III on your inferior Playstation when you've already got a PC to play it on? Heh
"Derp de derp."
What about the linux version? (RTCW kicks ass in linux, btw...as does quake3)
Why, Carmack, WHY? Why have you given into the Microsoft Machine and decided to create a version of what everybody expects to be the next hit game on the XBOX? I thought you were trying to avoid Microsoft domination by using things like OpenGL? You could bury the XBOX by announcing that there will be slimmed down PS2 and GameCube versions but that it will never be available for XBOX. DOOM III for XBOX only adds more weight to the already 800 lb gorilla. Consider me a troll if you must, but you have more control over this situation than anybody! Why have you chosen to aid Microsoft?!
For god's sake, WHY?
Remember "Bring 'em on"? *sigh
One could bring up Goldeneeye for the N64 as well. My comment still stands.
"Derp de derp."
All the recent 3d games look like everything is made of shiny plastic. The screenshots of Doom III that I've seen all look like shiny plastic. Halo looks like shiny plastic. It's only engines based on or prior to Quake II that don't suffer from this.
Ah! Just wanted to let you know I appreciate your question, most people come to some bizarre extreme instead of finding out what I meant. Heh. I'm serious here, I appreciate you asking even if you come to disagree with me. :)
The reason the Robocop project happened was because ED-209 was pretty badly designed. ED-209 was supposed to be an automated law enforcement droid, but it had serious design flaws that strangely reflect the way Windows works today. OCP didn't really care that it worked or not, they just wanted to get that ever fruitful gov't contract. When ED-209 failed at a board meeting (to put it mildly...) an up and coming exec leapt in and proposed his pitch for the Robocop project that would solve all of these problems.
So that's where the MS reference comes in. In the presentation video that announced ED-209, they made a reference to "investing in areas that weren't originally profitable." with clips of artificial hearts (and a commercial for an 'athletic heart'..heh) and space exploration and so on. OCP had a viral approach to snapping up any market they could and becoming the leader. As for Boddicker's involvement, I personally thought that OCP wasn't in on that. To me, that felt like it was just Dick Jones trying to grab a few extra $$$. Basically, OCP was trying to set up a legal monopoly in a self contained area. This was emphasized in Robocop 2 when OCP intentionally set up the city with a loan and forced them to default on it so they could take over city property. Heh. Pretty aggresive, wouldn't you say?
Their grande plan was to buy Old Detroid and erect 'Delta City', where presumably they could keep everybody out, including competitors and the government. It wouldn't be long before they could have their own nicely contained economy where they rule. Your equality was measured in stock. The more you bought, the more decision making power you have. (Making OCP rich in the process...) And so on...
The Robocop reference I made was a playful poke at the idea that MS would try to pull the stunt OCP (fictionally) attempted to. I think people get ideas that MS is trying to do more than it really is. I have no doubt they've done some really shitty things to get where they are today, but I seriously doubt that they're interested in going to the extremes that people say they are. For example, MS allegedly paying $2 billion (inflated # btw...) to get the XBOX out in order to wipe out OpenGL and so on. This is ridiculous. What's really happening is that the Playstation became a rather profitable item for Sony, so MS thought they'd try their hand at it.
At least that's my view on it. I've followed MS for quite a while, I've also followed the game market for quite a while. MS is not doing anything unsual there other than not including Word or IE with their machine. Heh.
As I said above, I appreciate you asking me to clarify. It is so rare these days.
"Derp de derp."
because the servers doesn't use a default of a BINARY mime type, and probably doesn't have mod_mime_magic turned on.
While Internet Explorer will blindly apply its own magic rules (which lead to interesting viral problems, since you can send mis-named attachements which execute without permission), wget, Netscape, Mozilla, etc, etc, etc, all honour the MIME given be the server, which is set to text/plain. Which means CR/LF is converted to/from UNIX and MSDOS or MAC format for each transfer, depending on the format on the server and the client.
So fix your Apache config, it's not hard. I can even help you out if you're not familiar with it.
Btw, that hotlinking hack won't work if your UA just fakes referrers, like all good browsers or proxies should.
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Internet Explorer (n): Another bug -- that is, a feature that can't be turned off -- in Windows.
They've just started their XBox online service. I don't ever expect there to be a version of Office for the XBox. And I don't think it'll replace desktop computers. But I think they'll eventually enable them to be used as only an internet appliance, i.e. e-mail, some browsing (maybe MSN only), and possibly (when broadband finally takes off) music & movies on demand (with authentication & payment via Passport, MS taking a cut from each transaction).
Not at all. I'm basing my predictions on Microsoft's previous behavior.
I said it before, I'll say it again: When I was talking about the XBOX holding it's own against GC or PS2, I was talking about processing power.
"Derp de derp."
Processing power was exactly what I was talking about.
"Derp de derp."
But on your point, any current low end PC has a lot more general purpose processing power than every game console. Therefore, it only takes the equivalent of a low end PC to compete.