Microsoft/HP to Market Crippled Entertainment PCs

gustywinds writes "CNet is reporting that Microsoft and HP recently announced the details on their Media Center PCs that will be coming out this Christmas season (this used to be called 'Freestyle'). The big story is that these PCs will have anti-copying mechanisms built-in to them -- ie can't burn recorded TV shows to DVD, or even copy and play them back on other PCs. And they are going to be expensive... $1500 for the starter box. Sounds like this thing is going to be DOA. Lots of other PC-based TV recording products that aren't restrictive when it comes to copying stuff goes... Snapstream, WinDVR... And, of course, Hauppauge, nVidia and ATi have products too but their software is pretty lacking..."

Comments

Probably a stalking horse

[sphealey]

I would guess that this product is intended to fail. When no one buys it, the RIAA and MPAA will go to Congress and plead that such technology must be required on all audio/video devices, since the feckless consumer won't agree to handcuff himself to the viewing chair.

sPh

Re:Probably a stalking horse

[The_Rook]

or, alternatively, the computer makers could use this to show that drm technologies just don't sell and that forcing them to include the technology will ruin their business.

Re:Probably a stalking horse

[Slowping]

Kinda off-topic to the parent post, but I wanted to share this tidbit.

I used to be an intern at a research lab of a large technology company. Approximately six months ago, we hosted a large meeting between representatives of this company, and the technical advisors to congress-people regarding digital rights.

Anyways, I can't say much about the details, just in case I step over some confidentiality restrictions. But I will say this...

This group of advisors think that the V-Chip was a great success.

Several of them were excited about the idea of putting watermark signals in video, that camcorders would recognize and refuse to record. ... to plug the "analog hole".

The tech company representative argued that there are existing laws to handle theft, and that theft is a social and educational problem, not a technological problem. But, judging from the faces of the advisors, I would guess that all of them dismissed the idea.

Think about that. Discuss.

Our modern age ...

[i_want_you_to_throw_]

It seems that the order of cracking as always been that some huge company comes up with technology and then someone comes along and cracks it.

During our modern age, it has been the reverse where formats have been created that allow copying and wide dissemination of info and companies come along try to stop it (through heavy handed lawsuits) or try to co-opt it or better (worse?) yet offer a competing scheme that requires you pay for it and ... duh ... no one buys it.

Feel free to add as needed.

Who the hell would be dumb enough to buy one of these? Not people... companies? Possibly..
When corporations are held liable for employees downloading files then maybe companies might go to buy these as a liability hedge.

A real tightly defined scenario sure.......

DIV/X and post-Napster again

[ColdChrist]

It seems as though the businesses that do this sort of thing are suffering from wishful thinking. The DIV/X vs. DVD fiasco should have taught companies that you can't take away what consumers already have; it's like King Canute trying to hold back the tide. And Napster is another example: they cut off the hydra's head and out popped seven more, ready to eat the music industry.

I would like to know more about why they've put something into an expensive system that they have got to know is going to kill it in the marketplace. Do Microsoft and HP have ties to the entertainment industry I don't know about?

One thing's for certain -- the future of home entertainment is changing, but the "Media Center PC" is not where it's going.

MS shooting themselves in the foot?

[gillbates]

Microsoft generally believes that digital entertainment, digital media, is the thing that's going to drive the next cycle of PC upgrades," he said. "There's not that much more new you can do with your PC that you're not already doing."

Problem is, if the user cannot transfer their digital content, be it original work, copyrighted audio or video, to their next PC, they aren't likely to upgrade. What will Microsoft do in two years when their current customers will want to upgrade their PC, but won't for fear of losing their digital content? If Microsoft is indeed right in saying that digital media will drive PC upgrade cycles, they are being quite shortsighted by releasing an OS which ties all of a consumer's digital media to their current machine.

about $100 sounds right

[bigpat]

This thing is definately DOA.

Unfortunately it will probably prevent some little company from getting VC for coming out with a decent version of this. Which is probably the intent anyway.

Re:More info - links

[KelsoLundeen]

Try ShowShifter.

It's got a big, colorful UI just like TIVO and now can handle recording from listings. (And I believe it works with listings all over the world. It definitely works in Ireland, UK, and USA -- I bet it'll work in Canada.)

ShowShifter is really cool. It uses DivX pro to record, can be programmed to record just like a TIVO, and doesn't cost a penny beyond the initial purchase -- which is quite cheap for what it offers (US$49 for the standard version, $79 for the pro version with DivxPro).

MS Windows PCs Really Are Crippled by Default

[FreeUser]

Easy use of your computer.

I am no MS lover, but your comment was definitly over-rated.

Their statement was actually quite apropos, though it should have contained a little detail.

As an anectdote, a friend of mine used Microsoft Windows Media Player to rip his music collection, and wondered why he couldn't play some of his music (he'd upgraded his video card IIRC). I showed him where to turn off 'digital rights management' and explained to him why DRM was newspeak for 'digital rights denial' and how the default settings of his OS were designed, deliberately, by Microsoft, to fuck him.

He was quite angry, and while he isn't ready to switch to GNU/Linux yet, he did download a free ripper and started reripping the music he could no longer listen to into OggVorbis format.

So yes, Microsoft is deliberately selling extraordinarilly crippled PCs to the average consumer, not only crippled by the limitations, bugs, and design flaws of their software, but deliberately crippled and broken in addition to all of that.

Re:MS Windows PCs Really Are Crippled by Default

[PjotrP]

As far as i could make out from the article this pc mainly copy protects the video recording. I'm kinda wondering why there is no hardware restriction on the audio/mp3 ripping from cdrom. or is there? seems kinda logical to limit audio in the same way as the video content.

is this perhaps because MS believes video recording is less mainstream and thinks it is still able to convince buyers that this is a "fair" system, while convincing mainstream buyers to not play or record mp3's is no longer possible (considering that mainstream buyers already know about how free mp3's can be) or on the other side of the coin in effect is considered a later step in their "copy-protecting" plan?

Re:Are they taking stupid pills?

[haa...jesus christ]

"See DRM people, your ideas are a flop".

I was thinking the same thing...how often does an organization purposely market something to fail in an effort to crush 'lesser' competitors? Does anyone have examples?

Well, I hope so...

[sphealey]

Problem is, the interests of Microsoft, HP, and Samsung are in much closer alignment with the interests of the RIAA and MPAA than they are with the interests of Joe Consumer.

Particularly Microsoft - now that the growth if off the PC rose, they desperately need new revenue streams to replace the upgrade treadmill.

sPh

Re:Well, I hope so...

[swb]

Problem is, the interests of Microsoft, HP, and Samsung are in much closer alignment with the interests of the RIAA and MPAA than they are with the interests of Joe Consumer.

Are they? Given that its 2002 and several iterations of products from MS, HP and Samsung have supported MP3, much to the profitability of those companies but we STILL DON'T have any move forward technologically from the RIAA, I wonder how badly they really want to anchor themselves to the RIAAs intrasingence and lack of growth or flexibility?

I'd give you that MS has more in common with RIAA than the hardware vendors, but I'll bet that a lot of leaders at the hardware companies just wish the best they had to do was change the color of their products every 12-18 months and not get their clocks cleaned by their competitors.

Re:Well, I hope so...

[Billly Gates]

It also servers Microsoft's best interest to stomp out piracy and casual copying as well as have a subscription model. With TCPA aka palidome, this will become a reality. The RIAA/MPAA will benifit and so will microsoft since casual copying will be eliminated with future verisons of Windows that rely on TCPA just to boot. I agree that pallidrome is part of Microsoft's .net strategy for securing their wallets as well as your computer and also killing linux as a side benifit. They have everything to gain. Only the consumer loses.

Better acronym expansion

[The Pim]

explained to him why DRM was newspeak for 'digital rights denial'

"Digital Restrictions Management" is more accurate, and has the right letters at the beginnings of the words. :-)

I didn't coin this; it's been floating around for a while, I think. But we would do well to push this term into the mainstream.

Freevo

[SubtleNuance]

Have a look at this project @ SourceForge; Freevo

There are others, like DVR, MythTV, HomeDVR

And there are here and here

Really, we dont need another device - a PC will work for this...

You can shove your Convergence up your ....

[imadork]

All the people who are whining about how overpriced this is should note that MS intends for this not to be a set-top box, but a full-fledged computer that you watch TV on.

So, lets assume that you'll get close to $2000 worth of computer for your money. My only question is: why?

DVRs, which are sold as companion products for TVs by TiVo and Sonicblue's ReplayTV, are expected to become standard equipment on PCs over the next few years, say analysts. ... Don Simon, a Windows user from Seattle, Wash., recently bought a Vaio RX780G PC. The avid TiVo user has networked other PCs to the Vaio, so he can "seamlessly watch TV on any PC in my house.

Do I have to turn in my geek credentials because I don't find TV on the PC all that compelling? I love DVDs on my laptop, and streaming audio and video, but we already have devices that are perfect to watch TV on... they're called televisions!. They have a simple UI and crash far less often than Windows does. We've had a box under the TV recording shows for years... Why does this box have to turn into a full-fledged computer just because we want to record these shows digitally now?

I have a TiVo and love using it, precisely because it doesn't feel like a computer when I'm using it! (Of course, it is -- the fact that I can upgrade the HD and add ethernet myself doesn't hurt, either.) When I want to rot my brain watching TV, I want it to just work, and I don't want to have to feel like I'm using a computer.

I always thought that Convergence meant that all of your dedicated media devices (which may actually be computers, but with a simpler UI) could talk to each other and exchange information, kind of like what Apple is trying to do with its iPod. Microsoft thinks Convergence means that all of your dedicated media devices become computers, running the latest MS OS, and with all of the problems and complications inherent in that. Of course, we know who's most likely to win this one...

Of course, the sad thing is that by making dedicated media devices more like computers and stuffing them chock-full of DRM badness, we'll end up making the actual computers more like dedicated media serving devices, since the same OS will run on both. :(

I'm not sure you understand.

[Wakko Warner]

"If the content owners look at the PC as this Wild West where the content and intellectual property is stolen, the content owners will try to get around the PC," Rosoff said. "That's something Microsoft wouldn't want to see happen."

This makes it sound very much like the primary motivation for creating this system is to make friends with the RIAA & MPAA. I think customer satisfaction is secondary to them.

I think you're wrong. There's already a power struggle going on for digital rights management, and, if the RIAA can't have their way through legislation or hardware compliance, do you honestly think they won't simply push the crippled-disc idea even further? There will come a day, probably very soon, where watermarked and encrypted (DVD-A) discs are the rule, not the exception.

Microsoft looks to be Covering Your Ass here, and appears to be merely paying lip service to the record industry. Why on earth would they deliberately alienate the consumer?

- A.P.