Slashdot Mirror


Upcoming Cyberwars

Jamyang writes "In the run-up to the first anniversary of September 11, Taiwan's President has accused China of threatening Taipei with "terrorist" tactics in a speech that will fuel Beijing's current fury: "Communist China has accelerated development of 'unrestricted warfare' similar to terrorist methods," he said. Reuters man in Taipei reckon he's referring to "Unrestricted Warfare" [PDF] by leading PLA strategists - Qiao Liang and Wang Xiangsui - who famously argued that China should focus on "asymmetric engagement" in the 21st century. In fact, many related secret documents have leaked out of China lately. Taiwan's Defense Ministry is taking the threat of infowar very seriously, as can be seen in their 2002 Defense Whitepaper. If the U.S. gets tied up in a ground war in the Middle East, China's going to be real tempted ...."

14 of 207 comments (clear)

  1. Our interest in Taiwan by geek · · Score: 1, Insightful

    The agreement we have with Taiwan doesn't state we will go to war with them, just that we will supply them with the military equipment (supposing they can pay for it) they will need to fight the war themselves.

    We are under no obligation to go to war with China should they take action against Taiwan. Taiwan is quite capable of defending themselves. In fact Taiwan has a larger military than most super powers for this very reason. If you make the argument that China is larger with a superior military force, I will simply remind you of Vietnam and our failed attempts there.

    In the last 100 years no country has successfully invaded another. The world just doesn't take to kindly to that. There is a few possible exceptions (china and tibet), but putting them in context will still lead you to the same conclusion. The country on defense has a significantly high advantage. This advantage is why we didn't finish Saddam Hussein in the 90's.

    1. Re:Our interest in Taiwan by anonymous+cupboard · · Score: 3, Insightful
      In the last 100 years no country has successfully invaded another. The world just doesn't take to kindly to that. There is a few possible exceptions (china and tibet),

      I'm glad you remembered Tibet (it is afterall China we are talking about). If one means invasions sucessfully repulsed, there were not a lot of those. However, in a lot of places one nation was able to hold on to another from a few years (name any of the countries invaded by the Germans in WW2) to about 50 years for the DDR and even more for the countries comprising Soviet Russia. For example, some of the Central Asian countries were not associated with Russia until about 80 years ago.

      In any case the PRC sees the ROC as part of China. They do not perceive it as another country, just a last bastion of power held by a regime chased out of the rest of the country. If they start to accept it as a separate country then there is a chance for long term peace.

      To be serious Taiwan and China enjoy a very profitable business partnership and there are many in China who know this. However there are still a few hawks around (especially in the military) who perceive otherwise. Let us wait for the next People's Congress to see who gets in.

    2. Re:Our interest in Taiwan by Stonehand · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Germany invaded major countries like Poland and France, and thoroughly occupied them in addition to consuming various smaller countries as, basically, stepping stones. Care? Well, the Czechs know how much the rest of Western Europe really cared, until the UK, Switzerland and Spain were basically all that weren't assimilated by Italy or Germany.

      Russia, for its part, invaded Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia, Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary, Poland, Finland... and the world, generally speaking, didn't do a damn thing about them.

      The US invaded Grenada -- nobody lifted a finger. The US invaded Panama and implemented some regime change -- again, nobody interfered. The USSR and Cuba funded and trained Marxist revolutionaries all over Latin America and Africa, and nobody but the US really gave a damn.

      How much outside intervention have we seen in Jammu and Kashmir? None.

      How much outside intervention have we seen when the Turks invade Iraq? Basically none.

      If you got the power, or you're not threatening THEM immediately, most of the world won't care. Like Chamberlain, they'll happily sign over a third party's land to somebody else if it doesn't hurt their short-term interests.

      --
      Only the dead have seen the end of war.
  2. Wrong - China can't get away with it by Infonaut · · Score: 3, Insightful
    China will not risk nuclear war with the United States over Taiwan. While China does have nukes, their reliability is untested, their accuracy is questionable, and their arsenal is a small sliver of what the US has. Would they risk getting wiped off the face of the earth in a nuke exchange with the US, when they wouldn't have the capability to completely disable the US? No.

    Would the US intervene if China invaded Taiwan? Absolutely. The intervention might not take the form of massive troop deployments, but you could certainly expect massive air and sea-based theater weapons such as cruise missiles, fuel-air bombs, and the like to be brought to bear on massed Chinese forces.

    Whether China could defeat Taiwan is certainly open for debate, but the US would not sit idly by and let China launch an unprovoked attack without doing something about it. For the US not to do so would be tantamount to approving of the invasion, which is ludicrous to imagine.

    --
    Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
  3. No big surprise there. by Malcontent · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Now that the US has decided to wage a war against terrorism many other countries have decided to crack down own their own internal problem populations by painting them with the terrorist brush.

    Russia did it with chechnians, China did with the minority muslim population in the west. In the case of Israel it has used the post 9-11 US position to crack down much harder on the palestenians to the point of putting eight hundred thousand people under curfew and starving the population into submission.

    Before 9-11 all of these actions would have been objectionable to the US govt and the public at large but post 9-11 nobody has raised an eyebrow.

    Even in the US anybody who disagrees with the govt gets tagged with the terrorist label. The environmentalists, the "anti globalists", hackers, music swappers, open source developers etc.

    It should not surprise anybody to see taiwan jumping on board this bandwagon.

    My suspicion is that the term will dilute itself just like the word nazi did after it got overused so much. Feminazi, green nazi, surf nazi, soup nazi etc. When you start labeling everybody with the same tag pretty soon the label encompasses so many people it loses it's potency.

    --

    War is necrophilia.

    1. Re:No big surprise there. by Andy+Smith · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Even in the US anybody who disagrees with the govt gets tagged with the terrorist label. The environmentalists, the "anti globalists", hackers, music swappers, open source developers etc.
      Can you provide even a single example (referenced, hyperlinked or even just from memory) of anyone in the US government referring to music swappers or open source developers as "terrorists"?
    2. Re:No big surprise there. by Elwood+P+Dowd · · Score: 5, Insightful

      really feel like the USians started the whole trend when GW & gang started talking about evil. GW would like to submit that the terrorists are pure incarnations of evil on Earth, and the USA is 100% righteous.

      This is false, of course. And other nations have it worse than us anyway. I don't know about their body count, but terrorism on the part of the Chechnyans and the Palestinians certainly affect the daily lives of Israelis and Russians much more than Americans are effected by Al Qaeda. So, if Al Qaeda is pure evil, then surely the Chechnyans and the Palestinians are worse, right?

      It's all political posturing, and it's all bullshit. We must attack Al Qaeda in order to preserve our national security. It has nothing to do with good vs. evil. Good vs. evil is a psuedo-religious sham. Any way, now that unconventional warfare has been equated with evil incarnate, Taiwan would be stupid not to invoke the name of terrorism when dealing with China. It's like calling GW on the phone and saying, "We understand if you're too chicken to deal help us out." Personally, I'm all for it. Just because I like Taiwan, and hope that the US defends its allies.

      --

      There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
    3. Re:No big surprise there. by Malcontent · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "So, if Al Qaeda is pure evil, then surely the Chechnyans and the Palestinians are worse, right?"

      There is a profound difference. The chechens and the palestenians are occupied people. They are fighting to reclaim their independence from an opressive and violent occupation of their lands. Neither one of them enjoy the full spate of human rights that their occupiers or the rest of the free world enjoy.

      I am sure you don't need me to reel off starvation, torture, assasinations, no right to travel, curfews, mass arrests, no access to lawyers and plain old murders that are visited on those unfortunate people.

      When al Quadia attacked us we were not occupying anybody, we were not denying anybody human rights, not torturing people, not preventing people from getting medical attention etc.

      Of course we now seem to be sliding in that direction but that's another story altogether.

      It's one think to attack unprovoked it's another to fight to throw off your enslavers. You remember this phrase "give me freedom or give me death"? The same thing.

      --

      War is necrophilia.

  4. Annoying use of "terrorism" by abbamouse · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Am I the only one that's getting tired of every world leader referring to the activity of their rivals as being "terrorism"? It reminds me of how, during the Cold War, every problem a nation faced was either blamed on "communist subversion" or "imperialist aggression."
    Computer viruses as terrorism? Well, maybe if they're targeted to drop planes from the sky, cause nuclear power plant malfunctions, etc -- but everyday preparation for infowar is not terrorism.
    Besides, terrorism is almost always the weapon of the weak (excluding "terror" against one's own population). Strong countries find lobbing a few missiles to be much more effective. There is real danger of full-scale conventional war if Taiwan declares independence from China, and I suspect that computer viruses will be the last of their concerns.

    --
    Make cheese not war 8:)
  5. Re:With that last question I ask another by neksys · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Why is it that non-Americans hate the US so much, yet it is always the United States cleaning up everyone else's spilled milk, as so to speak?

    I think perhaps you have it backwards - could it be that non-Americans hate the US so much because the United States is always cleaning up spilled milk?

    For example, according to an Ipsos-Reid poll last week, 69 per cent of Canadians said the U.S. shares some of the responsibility for the attacks, while 15 per cent said all of the responsibility sits on American shoulders.

    If we Canadians feel that way, how does the rest of the world feel? You are bound to get stung when you stick your hand in the hornets' nest looking for honey.

  6. Can we drop these articles? by KlausBreuer · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Personally, I am getting tired of hearing about this "cyber-terrorism". You know it's nonsense. I know it's nonsense.
    It's simply another idiocy spewed by the cabal ruling the US, another area where they will spread violence and prohibitions, another area where humongous amounts of money will be spent.

    Please, let's just drop this. Let's not make it news when somebody Up Top yet again talks about it with furrowed brow. Cyber-terrorism is ridiculous. It hasn't happened yet, and you can't convince me that there are any real signs of it happening in the near future.

    The only thing that will happen is that vast amounts of money will be spent without result. Again.

    Ciao,
    Klaus

    --
    Free PC version of ChipWits at http://www.breueronline.de/klaus/chipwits/
  7. Re:With that last question I ask another by neksys · · Score: 3, Insightful

    You misunderstand - if you read the article, you'd see that those 15% believe that US foreign policy led to the attacks. Rather, had US foreign policy been handled differently, the attacks would have never happened. That's not to defend those 15%, I personally believe that it takes two to tango, but hey, everyone is entitled to their opinion. My point isn't to defend those 15%, or 69%, for that matter. It's just to say that if a closely allied country can find blame in the US, how do people in other countries feel?

  8. Shitty sitcoms by DrSkwid · · Score: 3, Insightful

    And other cultural vandalism.

    If I dislike America the Capitalist it'd because of it's success. It's ironic that the majority of Americans I have met are some of the friendliest and generous people I have met but when I walk through my town it makes me sad that everywhere I see Corporate America mocking me with it's ownership of my environment. Within 5 miles of my house there are 4
    McDonalds, 2 Wal-Marts, 2 Starbucks and 1 GAP.
    As en experiment I just went and turned on my TV. Of the seven channels two of them are shwoing American programmes (Happy Days & something with Tia Carrera as Indiana Jones).

    Of course, much of it doesn't start out as unwanted, I like Happy Days but as time goes by this cultural expansionism gets a bit much. Suddenly there are no shops but American shops. All your canned drinks say "made by the Coke Company" and there's nothing but Saved By The Bell or WWF on TV.

    America can seem like a guest who brought round a six pack and a pizza but doesn't know when to leave.

    Just ask Osama. The Americans come to help stabilise the region but then decide to maintain a military presence that goes far beyond the initial mandate. Now, I will admit, that this presence is probably to *my* benefit, but for some Muslims it's offensive (like Conservative Islam is to me).

    I'm not suggesting that any of this makes it okay to spill American blood. Far from it. But that's what it's like living under American influence.

    It's no wonder the people try to protect their culture from outside influence. They want dominion over their own affairs.

    Perceived common enemies are the stock in trade for the human race be it burglars, burgers or Burghers. There's money/power to be made in "solutions" to all of these.

    --
    There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
    1. Re:Shitty sitcoms by PhoenixFlare · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "All your canned drinks say "made by the Coke Company" and there's nothing but Saved By The Bell or WWF on TV. "

      A little about me-

      I live in New York State, with a population of 18 million plus, and more specifically in Rochester, with the metro area having around 900,000 people....Not exactly a backwater, and I think i'm a fairly typical citizen for my age and school (21, RIT)

      So, let's see...Looking around my room at the moment- Various drinks, with a box of Moutain Dew being the sole Pepsi/Coke product, dwarfed by a couple huge jugs of orange juice and some liter bottles of water, of all things :)

      Elsewhere- Stacks of burned anime CDs and tapes outnumbering anything else I have by at least 5:1, not to mention that I can't remember the last time I watched Saved by the Bell(hasn't even been broadcast on any major stations here for at least 4 or 5 years, to my knowledge), or stayed on any station showing WWF for more than a second or two.

      "As en experiment I just went and turned on my TV. Of the seven channels two of them are shwoing American programmes (Happy Days & something with Tia Carrera as Indiana Jones)."

      This just makes you sound like you're looking for something to complain about....I could whine about the Japanese, Spanish, ASL(sign language), or UK stations I have in the lineup here, but I actually like watching programming not of my native country.

      And no offense to you personally, but really, if Europeans and others are equating overseas reruns of old TV programming like fscking Happy Days and such to trying to force our culture down your collective throats....Something's very wrong :P

      Anyway, the point of this all is- Remember that not all Americans (and really very few, relatively) are intent on cultural vandalism and exporting "shitty sitcoms"....Generalization is bad, mmkay?

      Most of us love experiencing cultures other than our own, despite what big buisness may have you believe.