AMD Opteron to support Palladium

Jim Norton writes "This article is just a reminder that AMD is just as guilty as Intel in supporting TCPA / Palladium. AMD has announced that Opteron will be compatible with the Palladium Initiative and that AMD is part of the 'Trusted Computing Alliance'."

Comments

Mostly a political gesture

[fault0]

It's not that companies like AMD and Intel particularly like this effort. As hardware/chip/part manufacturers, it's just more work for them. They support the inititive because they need to stay on Microsoft's good side in the up coming x86-64/itanium battle.

Needs to be said....

[dalassa]

Not to be Trolling or anything...

But every one should switch to the bunny foo-foo Macintosh. :-)

*pats G4*

Re:Needs to be said....

[Colin Bayer]

If you don't think Apple will be up against the wall like everyone else, implementing some form of DRM, you're deluded. Once content begins to be released with DRM restrictions, Apple will have to make a competing implementation, or else you'll find your precious lickable G4 unable to run an increasing number of things. The only technologies that could survive without DRM (assuming the CBDTPA doesn't pass) would be those that don't share a market with Windows, and they are very few indeed.

If you RTFA...

[gatesh8r]

Yeah, they're doing this, but...

Bit by bit, digital freedom disappears

By Nathan Cochrane
September 17 2002
Next

Another stage in Microsoft's five-year plan to control our PCs and the Internet will kick off early next year with the launch of Advanced Micro Devices' latest chip, Opteron, aimed at business uses.

The new microprocessor, which will run both existing 32-bit applications and specially recompiled 64-bit programs, will support "Palladium", a set of security and privacy features Microsoft is building into its products. Both AMD and Microsoft are members of the Trusted Computing Platform Alliance (TCPA), a cabal of 170 product makers developing a uniform approach to security and copyright protection. AMD has been working on the "trusted client" approach with Wave Systems Corp for two years.

AMD's chips will increase the security of those accessing programs and the Internet, says company marketer Patrick Moorhead. But it will also refuse to play certain content if it is not digitally signed by Microsoft or an authorised party.

For the end-to-end security features to work as envisioned by the TCPA, all parties along the network chain must build in complementary security features. Chips from the likes of AMD and Intel will only decode information, such as audio and video, if it comes with an unlocking key. Hard-drive makers will make drives that won't record certain types of information, and so on.

It is envisaged that once the TCPA system is fully functioning, our PCs would quietly report to authorities any unauthorised content on our machines. PCs and other devices would also refuse to play content, such as a music CD, tied to another device, and may be instructed by a remote server to delete information from the owner's hard drive.

Moorhead, AMD's vice-president of consumer advocacy, dismisses consumer complaints that the ever-tightening noose designed to stop online piracy, known as Digital Rights Management (DRM), will erode existing rights.

But he says AMD believes that these technologies should be "opt-in" - that the user should control it - not government mandates.

Hollywood and the music industry are lobbying hard to make DRM mandatory in all new devices, and existing laws here and in the US make it a crime to switch it off.

Moorhead says the end user has been "unfairly branded" as a thief, and he believes most people would buy content online if it was available but it is being held back by a skittish film and recording industry.

But Dan Bricklin, computing pioneer and co-developer of the world's first popular spreadsheet, VisiCalc, says attempts to copy-protect works are a "simple fix" to preserve out-dated business models.

Further, he wrote, using legislation to bolster technological methods would be "bad for society", hobbling technology.

"Copy protection, like poor environment and chemical instability before it for books and works of art, looks to be a major impediment to preserving our cultural heritage."

Re:If you RTFA...

[Beliskner]

Every now and again something happens that makes us citizens have to start everything again from scratch. I say FSF buys the Altera FPGA kit, and we design our own processor (I hope to God that Intel doesn't keep the OP-codes secret that relate to Palladium).

We can program the FPGA with Intel instruction set compatibility, where Palladium instructions would be ignored, or design an add-on chip (like the old Pentium Turbo snap-on chips) which would detect the Palladium opcodes on the FSB and skirt around them. Whoa, am I violating the DMCA by suggesting this?

Government + Corporations versus Consumers, Saddam is just a distraction

Re:If you RTFA...

[rosewood]

I posted this in another thread but again, from hardocp.com

Comments that looked like they were from Pat Moorhead on an Aussie Web site are not from Pat Moorhead, the firm has just told us.In fact, according to an AMD UK representative, AMD's Opteron products will run any kind of content in the future -- contrary to the report in The Age, on which our original report, below, was based.

Part of the content in The Age failed to distinguish between comments Moorhead made and conjecture, AMD said. AMD, in fact, claims it is the "good guy", and even though it is a member of the "trusted computing" initiative, will allow users to opt in whether to use this type of technology or not. "There is nothing [in Hammer] that could actually prevent a user running unlicensed content," the representative from AMD said MM.

Re:If you RTFA...

[El Rey]

Just get a Transmeta processor and hack the Pentium emulation layer...

Re:If you RTFA...

[Beliskner]

Just get a Transmeta processor and hack the Pentium emulation layer...

If they're still in business, by creating circumventable devices they're breaching the DMCA, they can be swatted like a fly by Hollywood. Then to rub salt in the wound, they can put Stallone into a movie about it - evil corporation tries to steal music like uhhh the Taliban and terrorists, and then gets destroyed by Stallone, who bursts into Transmeta HQ with a Gatling gun, and says, "You took all of our movies away, think you're a wise guy? Mickey Mouse says differrent, eat lead asshole. I'm gonna take our movies back from your evil clutches! Pluto Nash will destroy you"

Re:If you RTFA...

[Jester99]

Even if they keep the opcodes secret, legal precident is set that double-blind blackboxing is a legal method to reverse-engineer a system. The GNU project, if it wanted to, could surely reverse engineer all the opcodes for Palladium.

(FYI, double-blind blackboxing is a process of reverse engineering in which one team of engineers "poke at" an existing system to determine how it operates under certain conditions. A second team, which never actually directly interacts with the system they're trying to copy, then uses a report created by the first team to implement the cloned system.)

#include /*(IANAL)*/

Addendum

[Ridge]

Note that apparently the Opteron (Autobots, transform!), will support untrusted/unlicensed content as well. [neowin.net].

Story is Incorrect (perhaps)

[whovian]

AMDZone says differently:

Update: AMD has contacted The Inquirer and indeed Opteron will not support Palladium. Apparently that was some creative writing on the part of the outfit that posted the story.

Re:Story is Incorrect (perhaps)

[whovian]

AMDmb adds further:

AMD's Opteron won't reject unlicensed content - Ron Goldin - Fri, Sep 20, 2002 - 10:46 AM
Palladium... just that word sends shivers down my spine.. but it seems AMD is trying to smooth things over a bit and take away the shakes.
In fact, according to an AMD UK representative, AMD's Opteron products will run any kind of content in the future -- contrart to the report in The Age, on which our original report was based.
Part of the content in The Age failed to distinguish between comments Moorhead made and conjecture, AMD said. [emphasis added]
Source: The Inquirer - More Information

Support is optional

[Analysis Paralysis]

Ceck out the update on The Inquirer here. According to AMD, TCPA support will be optional, with users being able to opt out.

do like me

[kipple]

..start buying 'old' processors and set up your own cluster.. you won't need new CPU for a while :)

Re:do like me

[Beliskner]

Though you can bet that your processor is gonna be way too slow to run any future apps so you should probably start hoarding software too.

During prohibition, the mafia sold liquor to the citizens of the United States and the law was then withdrawn. Now we're getting digital prohibition, and the warez people will sell us DRM-hacked software and DRM will be withdrawn.

The mirror in history is almost beautiful.

Just Another Reason

[asv108]

To Run Linux on the opteron. Seriously, I think all these DRM moves by MS our great, /. should welcome them, it will just speed up the world migration to Linux. There even seems to be a lot more interest in Linux these past few weeks on usenet since certain "free" winxp installtions can't use sp1.

Re:Opt out

[Verteiron]

That won't happen directly, it's too obvious. What could happen is this:

Law 1) Make it illegal to disable DRM unless the companies say you can (this is already in place).

Law 2) Make DRM mandatory in all hardware devices (currently being pushed hard by the ??AA).

Law 3) Require DRM hardware to ONLY run DRM-compliant software (not too hard to imagine).

Boom. That's the end of legal free (and Free) software in the USA. It would also be the end of programming as a hobby; programming would require expensive signatures in order to be allowed to run.

TCPA I can live with but palladium??

[Billly Gates]

TCPA is more strict then palladium but TCPA is founded by Intel, IBM, HP and a few other players who are more sympathetic to linux then Microsoft.

TCPA is already secretly installed by default on most IBM machines but the good news is you can turn it off and run linux on them. IBM is one of the biggest investors of TCPA and has also invested more then a billion into linux. They will make sure linux will run on TCPA hardware or that TCOA can easily be turned off. However microsoft's palladium will be built into memory modules and the cpu itself. Ouch. I do not know if you can turn these off. Microsoft's palladium faq states that you can still run old non trusted apps but admits linux can not run due ot legal rather then technical reasons. TCPA is more strict from a technical standpoint but it has proven itself that it can be easily disabled and I trust IBM a hell of alot more then Microsoft concerning my interests.

If worse comes to worse macs are always an option. It will take forever before apple is done designing motherboards with the new IBM powerpc chip's( last quarter 2003) which means g4's will stay for another year or two with slow memory access(sdram). Sure the new macs come with ddr but the internal chipset slows it down to sdram 133 speeds because the g4's suck so much.

OOO flamebait! I'll respond!

[narftrek]

Well if there are more factors as you say then WTF are they? Why don't you share a few with us?

I have one: AMD wants to stay in business. M$ is THE ONLY OS that works with most every peripheral and software package on a consistant basis. Why? Because M$ is a monopoly and everyone knows it. I want to be a Linux fan but there is no Linux company that will get off their ass and make a version where I don't have to compile shit. The end user should not have to recompile the kernel. Linux has a great future but that is the FUTURE. AMD needs an OS NOW. Since linux can't do it who else will? M$. Businesses are here to make money and to stay afloat AMD went ahead an sold their souls. Would you have it that Intel was the only processor company out there? I certainly wouldn't.

So...

[labratuk]

Is this something from which we cannot Opt-er-out?

I'll get my coat.

Article is old and incorrect

[l33t-gu3lph1t3]

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=5489

"Comments that looked like they were from Pat Moorhead on an Aussie Web site are not from Pat Moorhead, the firm has just told us.
In fact, according to an AMD UK representative, AMD's Opteron products will run any kind of content in the future -- contrary to the report in The Age, on which our original report, below, was based.

Part of the content in The Age failed to distinguish between comments Moorhead made and conjecture, AMD said.

AMD, in fact, claims it is the "good guy", and even though it is a member of the "trusted computing" initiative, will allow users to opt in whether to use this type of technology or not.

"There is nothing [in Hammer] that could actually prevent a user running unlicensed content," the representative from AMD said."

Make damn sure to check the most current of facts before posting FUD, fellow /.ers?

This is just silly

[Rui del-Negro]

Do you think the CPU has any idea if it's rendering a 3D scene or playing an MP3 or decompressing a JPEG or spell-checking a document? Let alone know if the files are copyrighted or not.

That's up to the OS and individual applications to (try to) determine and enforce.

The only thing that changes in a "secure" CPU is the fact that programs and (especially) the operating system will be able to identify that CPU uniquely (by a serial number), similar to what the Pentium III already does (but you can turn it off on the PIII, and I think also on the P4). Then some programs will probably refuse to play certain files if they're not tagged with that CPU id. Ex., if you buy a "secure" song on-line, or if you rip one of your CD's, it probably won't play on your friend's computer (or on yours if you change the CPU, and that's why MS needs to work with CPU makers, to make sure the CPU id can be managed by the OS).

The rest is just a lot of marketing hype to get money out of the RIAA and similar associations. "See, we are working on this 'secure' hardware that won't play copyrighted music, but it's very expensive to develop and we really don't have enough money, what with this recession and everything, so if you could fork over a couple of million, we'd appreciate it..."

It's a potential gold mine for (some) IT companies, just like the Y2K bug.

RMN
~~~

Re:Well I guess we can't win

[Sivar]

With any Palladium system, you will be able to disable Palladium in BIOS, so it _doesn't matter_ if a system supports it or not. If you turn it off, you will be unable to use Palladium protected media, just like pre-Palladium systems.
If you turn it on, you will at least have the option--an option I plan not to exercize.

Not all documents are locked documents

[yerricde]

Hollywood and the music industry are lobbying hard to make DRM mandatory in all new devices

Once the TCPA system becomes more widespread, Hollywood will have less room to bitch because there will be a Secure Memory Space(tm)(patent) in the most popular consumer operating system, and Hollywood studios will be able to provide Video On Demand services within that space.

and existing laws here and in the US make it a crime to switch it off.

Not exactly. The Palladium and TCPA systems simply provide a way to lock down data such that only specific applications running on one machine can use it. In order for Palladium or TCPA to actually restrict anything, the content provider must make the choice to lock down the data (conforming Compact Discs are not considered locked down). This doesn't give the RIAA labels an absolute oligopoly, as it's still possible for artists to Not Lock Down(tm) their .ogg files.

The public TCPA information stresses that only TCPA apps will use the TCPA memory space. Microsoft's Palladium materials make the same claim. And you'll apparently be able to turn off the systems in the BIOS setup, which will have only one effect: apps that use those systems will throw up an alert box to the effect "The locked document 'Love Me Now.wma' could not be opened because Palladium was not found." They do NOT force all documents to be locked documents.

You're kidding, right?

[Noose For A Neck]

Palladium means that anyone who wants to be able to view Palladium-protected media will have to have Palladium-compliant hardware. It's a goddamn goldmine for Intel and AMD! Imagine all the people who wouldn't otherwise bother to upgrade buying new chips so they can watch their DVD movies or whatever. That's a large amount of sales.

Re:You're kidding, right?

[Featureless]

A risky business. If customers become unhappy with "trusted computing," perhaps because it's main "feature" is restricing their activities or violating their privacy (and believe me, palladium will do both), they may reject the new hardware.

"Intellectual property politics" may be too complicated and confusing for most people to understand, but when it's sitting on their desktop, they will figure it out quick.

Customers (especially home users) may resist buying the new equipment, which both Intel and AMD are in a poor position to afford. Apple (which has, by the way, put a large amount of effort into promoting open media - rip/mix/burn, ipod, etc) might not play ball with trusted computing, and reap huge rewards in new marketshare. Finally, free operating systems, especially Linux, might be catalyzed by the vast new community of people looking to take advantage of the next generation hardware without the restrictions of "Trusted" Windows (talk about an oxymoron).

Finally, lest we forget, palladium security will be broken, perhaps even before it is released. DRM is only a cage. Things only need to escape once.

Palladium is a giant loser, except possibly for Microsoft, who will use it to invoke the DMCA against open source authors who attempt to interoperate with their "secure" system. Against that, we can only hope the anti-trust judge is up enough on the issues to head off the issue with meaningful requirements (and enforcement) of an interoperability policy.

Re:You're kidding, right?

[Dr. Spork]

I don't see the risk to chip manufacturers. I do see a potential risk to Windows market share, because this will piss people off. If the really invasive incarnations of this conincide with the release of a very solid WINE embedded in a nice Linux distribution, it will make very little sense to keep buying Microsoft operating systems.

Re:You're kidding, right?

[jbolden]

Or the combination of Sun, Linux and Mac break the universality of .doc format. Going to war is very dangerous, I think Microsoft realizes this.

Re:Hopefully ...

[homer_ca]

For forced DRM to work, all the hardware must support it and be locked down to prevent tampering. If the rest of the world says no to Palladium/TCPA, the Taiwanese motherboard makers will still make unrestricted motherboards for all the non-US markets. It could be as easy as a BIOS flash with a Euro or Asian ROM.

Re:Well I guess we can't win

[Com2Kid]

If you turn it off, you will be unable to use Palladium protected media,

For some reason I have the strong suspicion that most pirated videos or MP3s will NOT be Palladium protected. . . .

Call it a huntch. :-D

Re:Well I guess we can't win

[Powercntrl]

With any Palladium system, you will be able to disable Palladium in BIOS, so it _doesn't matter_ if a system supports it or not. If you turn it off, you will be unable to use Palladium protected media, just like pre-Palladium systems.

...and with any DIVX enabled player, you could just watch DVDs and never touch a DIVX disc, right? That is of course until DIVX "enhanced" players have a majority share in the market - then DVDs would have disappeared. Likewise, when most PCs support palladium, it will start becoming mandatory. Want to play that new FPS game online? It needs to run in a trusted enviorment to make sure you're not cheating. Want to run the latest version of MS Office because MS changed the document format yet again and you need to open documents from work? MS Office now requires Palladium support enabled to run. If you're presently not using a MS OS, it may be easy to overlook the significance of Palladium. Just remember, if you don't speak out for the Windows users because you're not a Windows user, just wait 'till big brother comes for you because "only hackers/terrorists/child pornographers use non-palladium hardware/software".

Let 'em know ...

[rlp]

Don't like Palladium - write to Intel and AMD and tell them
that you won't buy processors that support Palladium.
Intel backed-off CPU-ID's (for the Pentium III) quickly when
they realized that it would cost them sales. In general,
pissing off your best customers is not a smart long term
business practice.

If you write - remember: be concise and polite:

Intel:

Chairman: Andy S. Grove
CEO: Craig R. Barrett

Corporate Offices:
2200 Mission College Blvd.
Santa Clara, California 95052, USA

AMD:
Chairman: W. J. Sanders III
CEO: Hector de J. Ruiz

Corporate Offices:
One AMD Place
P.O. Box 3453
Sunnyvale CA 94088, USA

Nope

[0x0d0a]

That's complete nonsense.

I disagree. He stated that Palladium can be disabled. It's a technical fact, and it also happens to be correct. Not nonsense.

Like playing Quake 3, or Counter-Strike? Better enjoy them while you can...soon you won't be able to play them without palladium enabled.

a) Learn about Quake. Quake's insane success was mostly because of massive online acceptance which was mostly due to piracy. This increased the value of the game, and sold more copies. id admitted as much. Quake is without a doubt the single *worst* example you could have chosen of a piece of software having incentive to have strong DRM. Almost any other piece of software would be a more valid argument.

b) This is tough for Windows warez-playing gamers. I have a tough time feeling sorry for them. It'll never affect Linux -- to do Palladium, you'd need universal blessed, signed binaries of the kernel. That will happen when hell freezes over, because Linus can't even stand distribution of binary code, much less universalized binary code.

Possible reason for the delay?

[RelliK]

Does anyone else think that the previously reported delay in ClawHammer production is due to this crap?

Re:Yet another troll...

[spitzak]

Nonsense. The chip has access to large amounts of data at the same time, when it pages in memory into the cache. It can make a checksum of this, do a PK encryption of that, and compare it with another piece of data on some other page, and if it does not match it refuses to load the page. The system crashes soon after that. It has no need to "understand" what it is executing, it simply has to see if the data is correct.

This system is very bad news. Opt-out will be very short lived, as I'm sure MicroSoft expects Windows and many Windows apps to be broken very quickly, and the hackers will tell people to turn off TCPA to run the hacked binaries. Then the RIAA/MPAA will insist that the government make a regulation that requires people to stop making chips where it can be turned off.

Won't help

[RelliK]

AMD has no choice in this matter. It needs to support palladium so that Microsoft ports windows to x86-64. Without windows, AMD is dead. Notice that Intel is doing the same thing -- again because it has no choice. Once again, Microsoft has everyone by the balls, so I suggest you instead direct your mail to One Microsoft Way.

Time to unleash our tech powers...w/reverse buzz!

[Dr_Marvin_Monroe]

It's not that the two companies COULDN'T do that, it's that neither company WANTS to do that!

The hardware makers are in a cage too, if either one of them DOESN'T support it, they could hand the market share to the one that does. They're both FORCED by the margins to go along!...

The only answer lays with the consumer....DON'T BUY THIS PRODUCT....EVER!...

DONT EVEN LET IT GET A FOOTHOLD!.....

YOU!...the person reading this...use your influence as a tech person reading this list....tell everyone you know that
that "this Paladium thing sucks!" ....everyone you can!...tell "PC Magazine", the marketing droids at your company, technical manager in your department....tell your aunt that's calling about "getting a Dell"...tell everyone that talks with you about comptuters that this sucks....it's crippled....."it's really bad, I wouldn't spend my money on it..."

tell anyone asking you for tech advice..."...this Paladium thing sucks..."...

Work it into casual conversation..."..yeah, you know that this new Paladium thing REALLY sucks...."..

Need to kill this thing now...and we shouldn't take our collective power for granted on this one....you can bet that MS and RIAA are working up the "positive" buzz for this right now. I imagine that there will be a media campaign for this after Christmas season....

Nothing kills a new product faster than "consumer apathy," and for good measure, a heaping helping of distrust/dislike.

We need to start buzzing about this thing rather than quietly accepting defeat/takaway of our rights.