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Cringely On Civil Disobedience

Sauron23 writes "Robert Cringely over at PBS has his usual weekly Pulpit out. This weeks it's a follow up to last weeks discussion of one of the enforcers of the DMCA, BayTSP. He clarifies some of the issues surrounding a planned bust in October for P2P users sharing movies and makes perhaps an unusual request for civil disobediance from P2P users. I don't know what 10 million pirated copies of "Debbie does Dallas" would be worth either Bob. Probably more than the courts would want to handle. Worth the read." Some of the stronger parts of the column, IMHO, is the commentary on the e-mails people sent in.

28 of 365 comments (clear)

  1. not effective by Drunken+Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This kind of civil disobedience is NOT going to be very effective.

    With the civil rights movement of the 1960's, civil disobedience was very vocal and right in the public eye- this, on the other hand, will hardly be noticed by most people.

    A more effective way to show your displeasure with the current legislation may be to protest in "real life" rather than in cyberspace.

    --
    Have you been stalked by Seth today?
    1. Re:not effective by zyklone · · Score: 5, Informative

      Had you read the article you would have seen that a real-world protest is exactly what he is suggesting.

      You are to violate the DMCA and immediately leave towards the closest police station, and demand a jury trial.

    2. Re:not effective by zyklone · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Joe Public doesn't make any laws.
      Joe Public doesn't even vote (atleast not a very large part of them).

      The people who don't care will never care and can be safely ignored.

    3. Re:not effective by Lumpy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      wow you know nothing about history do you..

      I was at kent state. I saw kids the age of my older brother murdered by the government.

      and I saw that what they were doing, what they DIED for succeeded.

      It works, it works very well. and it takes people that care about it, and feel strong enough about it, and to have the BALLS to put their life on the line for it..

      Unfortunately, today in 2002, the United States of America.... too many cowards wont do anything, the rest are lazy and cant be bothered to donate or protest.

      the DMCA will survive... because YOU wont do anything as well as the rest of the population that bitches about it.

      It does work, I saw it in action.. and anyone that says otherwise is pretty much blind.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    4. Re:not effective by imadork · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Cringely's technique will not be very effective, but it has nothing to with "this kind of civil disobedience". In fact, what Cringely is advocating is civil disobedience done right -- having lots of people break a stupid law openly, and accepting the consequences. Remember, just breaking the law from the comfort of your basement is not enough -- you need to let the Police break down your door and throw you in jail just for trying to play your "copy-protected" DVD or CD on your computer, all to show the public how absurd the law is.

      The problem is that the absurdity will be lost on most people. This can't be compared to the Civil Rights movement, when the dignity of human beings was at stake. This is about bits, shiny things, and noise -- i.e., things that aren't really important when compared to human dignity. We all know what can happen in the future if laws like the DMCA don't get revisited in its current form. We know that the issue is more about property rights and control of information than about piracy. But since nothing important is at stake right now, anyone who participates in "civil disobedience" will be dismissed at best as a misguided geek, and at worst as an evil pirate hacker. After all, if you can watch a DVD on a DVD player, who cares if you can't watch it on a computer running Linux? We do, but noone else thinks it's important.

      Let's face it, Our percieved right to download music or use media that we "own" on any device that has the technical ability to play it is not considered that important when there is so much else going on in the world.

    5. Re:not effective by strudeau · · Score: 5, Interesting

      How exactly is doing something like this going to catch the public eye? Joe Public still won't have heard of what's going on, the only people that will know about it are Congress and the US Copyright Office. Now, something like what Bruce Perens planned to do (violate the DMCA in front of a crowd) on a larger scale would be more like it...

      Agreed. Perens' ploy as an individual act in front of a crowd would garner much more attention than Jimmy the Gamer copying mp3's in his basement -- even if they both subsequently turn themselves in. If what Cringley is suggesting is we all do this alone, go to local police stations and turn ourselves in, and there is no broader infrastructure to communicate to the media what is happening, it won't work. Also, I think the plan is flawed because it suffers from the collective action problem: it will work if X number of people do it (and get attention), but it won't work if less than X do it. So if I break the law, and the number ends up less than X, everyone loses and I lose more. However, if X people break the law, and I am X+1, I have (from my POV) paid the costs of action unecessarily.

      What I propose is a national gathering (perhaps in 2-4 locations simaltaneously) where folks can come together en masse to explicitly violate terms of the DMCA collectively in a public manner. This will encourage people to act (reduces fear of being less than X) and will make it much easier to garner media attention to the event(s). We all show up in San Fran, New York or Chicago, violate the DMCA like mad, document it, and then march down to the local police station and turn ourselves in. That just might work...

  2. The fine line between geeks and nerds. by Kenja · · Score: 5, Funny
    Fear me oh evil corporations, watch as I share my full collection of Star Wars videos online. From my parents basement I stab at thee.

    Some how I dont think anyone is really going to be impressed by a bunch of nerds holding a virtual "sit in" on a P2P network.

    --

    "Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
  3. Critical Mass of Lawbreakers by rot26 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    This follows the simple principal that if you or I drive 100 miles-per-hour on the highway, we get a ticket, but if EVERYONE drives 100 miles-per-hour, they change the speed limit.

    Everyone isn't going to do this. No way. I totally agree with his analysis of the problem, but unless some critical mass of lawbreakers were to be reached (chances being somewhere between fat and slim) you'd get the same result as you would if you were driving down the interstate in a pack of cars all going 100 mph: one guy would get nailed by the highway patrol and the rest would be ignored. The guy who pulled you over wouldn't care about the ones who got away... he got YOU, the rest are "job security".
    But don't I WISH this would work!

    --



    To ensure perfect aim, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target
    1. Re:Critical Mass of Lawbreakers by Sherloqq · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I partially agree with Cringley. A situation very similar to the speed limit scenario is already happening in Canada. Last month the Ministry of Transportation in Ontario started toying with the idea of raising the speed limit on the 401 highway from 100km/h (63mph) to 120km/h (75mph), because that is how fast people drive there nowadays. The Ministry says it's done some research with the help of the OPP (state troopers), and it's come to the conclusion that despite the higher average speed there are fewer accidents and fatalities, so the raising of the speed limit might be possible.

      Naturally, there are some issues with this proposal (people will start driving even faster and more aggressively, accident rates will increase dramatically etc.), but those are not relevant here. What *is* relevant is that what Cringley describes is possible *if* EVERYONE does it. Truth is, almost everyone does. It's much easier to single out those who obey the official speed limit (most often American drivers passing through / visiting) than those who don't. Mind you, this didn't happen overnight, it took time -- first people averaged 105km/h, then 110 and so on. Kinda like what's happening with our constitutional rights right now (i.e. the first amendment, slowly being eroded by those with enough money). Right now, you can pretty much be sure you won't get pulled over unless you're going over 120, unless you stand out.

      Personally, if everyone violated the DMCA on small scale (as in, don't copy 100 cds a day to make a profit from it), nobody would probably care. If Napster took longer to become the service that it was, it probably wouldn't have been as visible to the people at RIAA. But, it happened virtually 'overnight', made a big splash thanks to the media, got noticed relatively quickly, and viola! I betcha if someone started a nation-wide promotion of cheap, reliable radar detectors, those would become outlawed within weeks.

      So, to recap, I think civil disobedience would be the way to defeat the monster, I'm just not sure about the proposed tempo.

      --
      Have EVDO, will travel.
    2. Re:Critical Mass of Lawbreakers by duffbeer703 · · Score: 5, Informative

      A 0.0134 second google search revealed this:

      The impact of speed limits on highway speed:
      http://www.ibiblio.org/rdu/sl-irrel.html
      http://www.ibiblio.org/rdu/a-slmatr.html

      The impact of speed limits on safety:
      http://www.hwysafety.com/hwy_montana_2001 .htm
      http://www.nj.npri.org/nj99/03/fedagency.htm

      Summary of findings by the US Dep't of Transportation study:

      * Based on the free-flow speed data collected for a 24-h period at the experimental and comparison sites in 22 States, posted speed limits were set, on the average, at the 45th percentile speed or below the average speed of traffic

      * Speed limits were posted, on average, between 5 and 16 mi/h (8 and 26 km/h) below the 85th percentile speed.

      * Lowering speed limits by 5, 10, 15, or 20 mi/h (8, 16, 24, or 26 km/h) at the study sites had a minor effect on vehicle speeds. Posting lower speed limits does not decrease motorist's speeds.

      * Raising speed limits by 5, 10, or 15 mi/h (8, 16, or 25 km/h) at the rural and urban sites had a minor effect on vehicle speeds. In other words, an increase in the posted speed limit did not create a corresponding increase in vehicle speeds.

      * The average change in any of the percentile speeds at the experimental sites was less than 1.5 mi/h (2.4 m/h), regardless of whether the speed limit was raised or lowered.

      * Where speed limits were lowered, an examination of speed distribution indicated the slowest drivers (1st percentile) increased their speed approximately 1 mi/h (1/6 km/h). There were no changes on the high-speed drivers (99th percentile)

      * At sites where speed limits were raised, there was an increase of less than 1.5 mi/h (2.4 km/h) for drivers traveling at and below the 75th percentile speed. When the posted limits were raised by 10 and 15 mi/h (16 and 24 km/h), there was a small decrease in the 99th percentile speed.

      * Raising speed limits in the region of the 85th percentile speed has an extremely beneficial effect on drivers complying with the posted speed limits.

      * Lowering speed limits in the 33rd percentile speed (the average percentile that speed were posted in this study) provides a noncompliance rate of approximately 67 percent.

      * After speed limits were altered at the experimental sites, less than one-half of the drivers complied with the new posed limits.

      * Only minor changes in vehicles following as headways less than 2s were found at the experimental sites.

      * Accidents at the 58 experimental sites where speed limits were lowered increased by 5.4 percent. The level of confidence of this estimate is 44 percent. The 95 percent confidence limits for this estimate ranges from a reduction in accidents of 11 percent to an increase of 26 percent.

      * Accidents at the 41 experimental sites where speed limits were raised decreased by 6.7 percent. The level of confidence of this estimate in 59 percent. The 95 percent confidence limits for this estimate ranges from a reduction in accidents of 21 percent to an increase of 10 percent.

      * Lowering speed limits more than 5 mi/h (8 km/h) below the 85th percentile speed of traffic did not reduce accidents.

      * The indirect effects of speed limit changes on a sample of contiguous and adjacent roadways was found to be very small and insignificant.

      --
      Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
  4. easier said than done. by colin_n · · Score: 5, Interesting

    What cringely suggests is great. I am a huge proponent of organizing to oppose certain laws that adversely affect me. How do you organize people to do something like that? If one was to become a leader in an organization that takes non-violent action against these laws, isnt it likely that our government would start to watch our every move and make our life hell? Couldnt anti-DMCA activity be perceived by some as terrorist activity. I would be reluctant to pro-actively speak my mind on this issue for fear of repercussions. There is a lot of money out there that wants these laws in place. Im sure they have some clout to ruin my life if I speak out.

    --

    --------- I have no signature
    1. Re:easier said than done. by Tranvisor · · Score: 5, Interesting

      They do have the power to ruin your life. But if the cause is just, then it is worth it. People who take a stand for civil rights generally get the shit kicked out of them. It happens.

      But if you made $500,000 a year from out-moded buisness practices, wouldn't you get protective about it? Most people fear and dislike change. Some downright hate it. If you don't have the courage to stand up to them, then this article isn't for you.

      Personally, and this will be quite the unpopular opinion, I figure that this kind of stuff will not get thrown down soon. Why? Prohibition failed because everybody drank beer. Not enough people are online right now to make the difference. The citical mass is not there.

      Patience is important in a thing like this. The people's mood must be red-hot to propagate action. Actions made while the people's mood is indiferent, are at best, small at changing things.

      So til then keep the hope alive by donating to the ACLU and the EFF, they are the Flagbarers, they will eventually lead the fight.

  5. Money by laetus · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Money got this law passed and money will make it go away.

    Counter the RIAA's dollars by making a contribution to the Electronic Frontier Foundation and earmark the donation for fighting the DMCA.

    Take some of that money you're saving by not buying CD's and poney it up to those than can help.

    --

    "We're sorry, but the website you're trying to reach has been disconnected."
  6. Should be considered, but... by Noryungi · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I think this DMCA craziness will stop with one "scapegoat": take a cute, innocent and doe-eyed teenager. Let's name her Jane Doe.Imagine said teenager has downloaded her very first MP3 Britney Spears song (shudder) from Kaazaa.

    Have 20 armed-to-the-teeth RIAA goons kick down the door of her bedroom, drag her to court and prosecute her for 20 years for music piracy. If some high-powered RIAA lawyer claims US$ 20 Mil. for IP theft, from her hapless parents, that's even better. Lock Jane Doe in prison. Cut to Jane's parents crying over both the tragic destiny of their daughters and over the lawyer's bill.

    Then, plaster her (cute, innocent, doe-eyed) face all over the net and all over CNN and every other TV network in the world and have Linus Torvalds himself explain that "this terrible injustice could happen to your teenager! And all this just for downloading a music file!!".

    Then stand back, relax, and watch the public outrage, roused by the suffering of poor cute little Jane Doe, sweep away the RIAA, the MPAA, the DMCA and whatever else is bothering you.

    This is very effective. But not very nice for the poor "Jane Doe"...

    --
    The right to offend is far more important than the right not to be offended. (Rowan Atkinson)
    1. Re:Should be considered, but... by Iamthefallen · · Score: 5, Insightful

      No, watch the public rage against the fact that the Evil Internet was able to lure an innocent teen into it's grasp and corrupt her, then they will demand even stronger laws to protect their kids since the DMCA et al weren't enough...

      --
      Wax-Museum Fire Results In Hundreds Of New Danny DeVito Statues
  7. Do Something by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If you are someone that WISHES that his suggestion could work, but isn't going to perform civil disobediance for one reason or another, then try this:

    Think of the time it would take to find and download this movie, and instead spend half that time writting a letter to your representative.

    If you've already written your representative, then write somebody else.

  8. It's a movement! by Paul+Lamere · · Score: 5, Funny


    And can you, can you imagine fifty people a day, I said fifty people a day walking in with an MP3 of Alice's Restaurant and walking out. And friends they may thinks it's a movement.

    And that's what it is , the Alice's Restaurant Anti-DMCA Movement, and all you got to do to join is rip it the next time it come's around on the guitar.

  9. In a way I agree.... by haplo21112 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Civil disobience has its place, however his suggestion doesn't reall work in the long run...
    all one will really accomplish here is get fined, possibly have their equipment conficated...
    and end up with a criminal record, this will not change anything...!
    The Question becomes what will change things...?

    What I think...give this issue about another year or so and its going to start to divide people....
    Digital Rights are going to end up being an issue like Abortion rights, what I would like to see is it reach the level of slavery. We all know what happened then, and while I don't advocate that kind of outcome, not by a long shot...I think it needs to reach that kind of level of awareness in peoples minds.

    The corporations need a wake up call....

    Organize a strike against the offices of big music/movie studios...block the entrances so they can't go to work, and produce thier wares then they will start to listen...you have to impact the bottom line in ways that have a public eye showing. No Vilolence people...I can't stress that enough, just protest.

    You can't win through boycott either, because little suzy's parents are always going to buy her the next Disney DVD no mater what the issues...

    --
    Power Corrupts,Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely, leaving one person(group)in charge is absolutely corrupt.
  10. Selective Enforcment by DustMagnet · · Score: 5, Insightful
    This follows the simple principal that if you or I drive 100 miles-per-hour on the highway, we get a ticket, but if EVERYONE drives 100 miles-per-hour, they change the speed limit.

    No, when the speed limit was 55 and everyone drove 70, the police could pull over anyone they disliked. They didn't try to pull over everyone all at once. But speed limits are very different than copyright laws. When some of us started driving 55 (I kept right), the road became dangerous and they had to raise the limit.

    The DMCA is only selectively enforced already. We can't make them enforce it.

    --
    'SBEMAIL!' is better than a goat!!
  11. This is not Civil Disobedience by lkaos · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The term civil disobedience was made popular through a speech by Henry David Thoreau which later influence MLK and Gandhi. Gandhi took a slightly different approach which he also gave a separate name.

    The best way to explain civil disobedience is with the words of Thoreau himself:

    "If the injustice is part of the necessary friction of the machine of government let it go, let it go; perchance it will wear smooth. Certainly, the machine will wear out. If the injustice has a spring or a pulley or a rope or a crank exclusively for itself, then perhaps you may consider whether the remedy is worse than the evil. But if it is of such a nature that it requires you to be the agent of injustice to another then I say break the law . Let your life be a counter-friction to stop the machine. What I must do is to see, at any rate, that I do not lend myself to the wrong which I condemn."

    Obviously, not being able to copy movies surely doesn't constistute as making you "the agent of injustice to another." Instead of breaking the law, go out and vote for god's sake. How many of everyone hear complaining has 1) voted in the previous presidental and congressional elections and 2) attempted to educate fellow voters about the evils of laws like this?

    If you really care, do something about it. Don't try to pretend that you are doing something about it by breaking the law.

    --
    int func(int a);
    func((b += 3, b));
  12. With my luck... by BlackBolt · · Score: 5, Funny
    I'd download "Debbie Does Dallas", turn myself in, and be the only one there, forever a laughing stock and the brunt of Cringely's cruel joke.

    BlackBolt

  13. The real problem by Kefaa · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I believe he hit the nail on the head with:
    "But don't blame me for it. Most readers had never heard of BayTSP and had no idea how the DMCA was enforced until last week's column, "

    We talk about the DMCA just about weekly here and in other forums, never seen by mainstream Americans. When /. does get mentioned it is usually with the word "hacker" or that some site was "slash dotted" like it had been subject to DOS on purpose. [and please let's not even start about the difference between "hacker", "cracker", "Blackhat", "Whitehat and "Grayhat"]

    If we want to change the DMCA, we need to start talking to mom, dad and the neighbors. They need to understand that shortly they will be buying a CD of their favorite music that will only play on registered devices. That these devices will require replacement on a regular basis and they will will be paying for it. That the DVD they bought their grand-daughter forces her to watch more commericals before she can seen her movie, than a network Saturday morning. That the networks consider video taping programs theft and are working on making it illegal to fast forward through commericals and the device will prevent it and keeping the current vcr will not be an option.

    They are soon going to hear Britney Spears tell them that downloading songs is a crime. They are going to hear it on TV and they are going to believe it is a crime (the distinction of ownership, and fair use is not going to be made by RIAA or MPAA).

    We need Americans to start looking at the DMCA, the RIAA and the MPAA with the same eye they used when the tabacco companies told us "Smoking is not addictive." We need to do just as much to show them that if they are not concerned, their representatives will go to the mine and leave them with the shaft.

  14. Image is everything by LittleGuy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Let me be blunt. It is 2002. Post 9/11.

    You cannot and will not get the PR and imagery of the 60's with the Civil Rights Movement and the Vietnam Protestors. Accept it and move on.

    Today, DC was scheduled to be 'shut down' by IMF protestors. In the preceeding week, thanks to the media's constant drumming the the Chief's press conferences, John and Jane Public consider the protestors to be a big annoyance while driving to work, and thanks to the police for keeping those nasty people from disrupting my work routine.

    If Cringley's so-called mass protest is pulled off, I suspect that the authorities will use the media to pass along the mantra: "These are hackers. These are thieves. These are bad people. We put bad people away."

    --
    Mod Karma -1: I sed bad wurds. If I cep my mouf shut, I wud be at riyses.
  15. Copying a movie is not a violation of DMCA by mike449 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It is a copyright infringement under the "traditional" copyright laws.

    Sending all your friends a copy of DeCSS would be such violation. Or giving people on the street floppies with DeCSS - this one would be more public and likely to get some media and authorities' attention, which is the goal.

  16. Honest-P2P by Jeppe+Salvesen · · Score: 5, Interesting

    We should figure out some way to make our P2P apps notify the law enforcement whenever we've downloaded a copyrighted clip. I am thinking about some kind of plugin into Kazaa and gnucleus et al.

    It would be such a massive wave of honesty that their mail server would probably collapse.

    --

    Stop the brainwash

  17. Disobedienceware? by davie · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Perhaps someone should write a Windows trojan that pops up a dialog box explaining the situation (and consequences) with "click Ok to engage in civil disobedience". The application would download some unauthorized digital content, then print the "Turning Yourself in to The Authorities" HOWTO.

    --
    slashdot broke my sig
  18. Protesting DMCA vs protesting copyright by Sloppy · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Here is the plan. Everyone who hates the DMCA has to illegally copy a movie or a song, and then tell both the Congress and the U.S. Copyright Office exactly what they did.
    Making illegal copies of things is something to do if you want to protest copyright in general. If you really want to protest DMCA specifically, then illegally copying a movie or song isn't the way to go. That just makes you look like a "pirate." Instead, circumvent protection. Play your DVDs with mplayer or xine and tell people that you did. Tell people that you broke the law by watching a movie that you bought. What could be more damning for the DMCA?
    --
    As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
  19. I'm in by schlach · · Score: 5, Insightful

    What I propose is a national gathering (perhaps in 2-4 locations simaltaneously) where folks can come together en masse to explicitly violate terms of the DMCA collectively in a public manner.

    Would have modded you up, but then couldn't give you my email address =)

    schlachtavius _at_ yahoo.com

    Are you proposing it, or are you "proposing" it? Because if you're indeed proposing it, I'm in if it's well done, and I'll help organize. I'd probably be in for a California location. Perhaps we should throw up a site to direct people in this conversation to...

    Okay, done. Check out the new Digital Mandate Consumer Advocacy group, at yahoo groups. We can start there as a place to gauge interest in a national act of civil disobedience.

    If you're an armchair activist for tech issues, consider subbing our new group. The first thing we're gonna do is figure out who we've got, what issues we want to focus on, and how we might stage a massive protest. So sign up! We need you! I'll bring the Hi-C and rice krispy treats.

    --schlach