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GRE Computer Science Exam Canceled For '02
An anonymous reader writes "This may be a bit dated, but the Educational Testing Service has canceled the Computer Science GRE exam for November due to the fact that students were sharing and posting exam questions. One has to wonder about the immediate effect this will have on grad school admittance, as well as the long term changes that will likely occur to the tests as a result."
that's what I call peer2peer education!
Fleur de Sel
Does anyone know how much the scores count towards admissions? I'm sure there are some number-oriented schools out there, but I would assume they're also taking a good look at your academic achievements and personal statement, as well as your general GRE scores.
Derek
Don't Panic...
Well, they at least passed the first question:
1) Can you use a computer well enough to share information?
Right. No, your other right. No, the other other right.
Exactly. While I was at school, an instructor pointed me toward the MCSE "brain dump" site. I never bothered to remember it because I am not planning on becoming MS certified. People would go there after the test and submit as many questions as they could remember from the test.
In high schools, first period Chem students would share info on the test to the later period Chem students. How much info can be retained with so little time to cache it?
Was it actual test questions? Or just pointing people in a more focused direction?
How many tests have you taken where half of the "knowledge" was "researchable material?" What year did the OSI model come to be? That was an exam question I faced on a multiple choice exam. I wrote in my own answer . . . E) go look it up because I don't need to know that to set up a network.
If you don't like this . . . MOD someone else up.
If the sharers are so savvy, they can no doubt move this info anywhere they want - why only cancel the local tests? Seems everyone who wants this stuff will have it in short order.
Unless the tests have regional forms in addition to the other multiple forms, this is either useless or a symbolic slap on the wrist.
"Win treats sysadmins better than users. Mac treats users better than sysadmins. Linux treats everyone like sysadmins."
First, scores may be used at the low end as a first sort method. People who score below a certain cut off might be eliminated from further consideration. This is often done to limit the number of applications that must be examined.
Second, scores may be used at the high end to get considered for fellowships and other academic awards.
Most schools do not use the scores alone, but consider the whole package. Still, scores and GPA are used most everywhere in the initial sorting of applicants. If you are on the admissions committee of a CS department, and there are 3 of you, and there are 300 applications for 20 spots, you are going to want to winnow the pile in *some* way.
Keep in mind that standardized test scores do an ok job of predicting success in school at the high end, but do a very poor job of predicting failure in school at the low end.
"Education is not preparation for life, education is life itself." John Dewey
I'm sure not all schools use this approach, but many do. Maybe we'll see fewer international students coming in this year. That will certainly be a loss, but like I said, I'm applying and I really don't mind a temporary loss of competition. ;)
Second, it takes a fairly large amount of time to figure out how difficult/fair questions are for these tests. That is what the experimental section of the exams are used for. They corrolate your actuall score with how you did on each question in an experimental section and via statistics then determine how difficult that question actually was. Because this process takes time (even after you have written the question), a question needs to have an apprecable lifetime for the tests to continue to be fair and the scores to remain comperable from one exam to the next. In these respects they are different than the questions on a licensing test (which should test your practical ablities anyway) since aptatude tests require relative scores which don't drift from year to year, and licensing exams should determine how quickly you can diagnose/fix a problem or create a solution for a particular challenge.
Galium Arsenide is the material of the future, and always will be.
Could someone in the US please tell me what a "GRE" exam is? Do you have to take one of these there before going into Computer Science or something? I am about to graduate with my BCS and I have never heard of this thing.
... the point of GREs. Undergraduate entrance exams make sense; they verify that you have the prerequisite knowledge to take (pretty standard) undergraduate courses.
At the graduate level, however, you're supposed to be doing research. How do you define what knowledge is prerequisite for doing research in computer science? You can't -- all you can do is interview the students, get a feel for what sort of projects they are interested in, and decide if those projects sound as though they would be worth a degree.
Maybe things are different in the US of A, but I don't think I would personally want to study at any institution which would admit me on the basis of how well I did on an exam.
Tarsnap: Online backups for the truly paranoid
Even before students started sharing test questions on the internet, standardized tests only test memorization. It does is terrible job of measuring intelligence and critical analysis. Why in the world people believe SAT and GRE are useful is beyond me. Sure the system has been that way for a long time and everyone knows it's broken, but no one is willing to fix it. People with money to send their kids to test prep schools are the ones who benefit from standardized tests.
Not that anyone cares, but standardized tests were originally created to level the playing field for college admission. I forget who created it (saw a special on discovery), but the original intent was to make it so a smart poor kid could get into college. In practice, that is far from reality. Most of the kids who score well on standardized tests get the results because of test prep schools. People who are brilliant don't count, since they don't need to study in the first place. Children of those who make less than 50K have a harder time, since they can't afford it. I fail to see how paying for a test prep school, which use old tests for practice is different from kids posting the questions for free. Well, except that it negates the need to pay 2K for GRE prep class.
We're just better at pirating the exams than the Phys. Ed. department. Go figure.
You think that I'm crazy, you should see this guy!
Considering it's a Computer Science exam, I propose that whoever hacked in to get the questions in the first place should get an automatic 100.
P.S.
Yes, I read the article. I took comedic licence with the facts. (I didn't like them, so I ignored them.)
-
- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
It is extremely naive to assume that students will keep their mouths shut after taking an exam. Of course they'll talk, discuss solutions and see how well they did compared to others.
I took the CS "AGRE" (as it was called then) in the 80s, and after we came out of the exam, we were discussing the questions and were able to reconstruct the entire exam (including the multiple choices) in a manner of minutes. An astute listener who was scheduled to take the exam months later could easily have obtained the list of 80 questions that we had. Of course, not all of them would have been repeated; but some might have.
What a phenominal load of crap. Lazy admissions departments would just rather plug numbers into a computer than actually learn about potential students. Standardized testing is a self-fulfilling prophesy - skim off the top ten percent for the top ten percent of schools. Of course its gonna look like a success. But then again, a hundred years ago it was all about advancing the knowledge of humanity. Now it's just a hole in a punchcard. What a horrible waste of resources. To think, there is probable some kid out there willing to work his ass off to push the knowledge envelope, but he'll never get the chance because Podunk Community College doesn't have decent research facilities and Ivy University won't even look at somone without a high score on the monkey test.
"God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon, Marshal of France - speaking truth to power
How much of a kickback from ETS does a university get from requiring that students take the GRE? It's a pointless test, the real culling of the herd occurs after the comprehensives - and it's not like departments don't look at the student's transcripts before sending a positive admissions letter and offer letter.
So the real issue isn't forcing quality of students, it's a way for the university and a 3rd party to scam a little cash before taking the next 2-6 years of your life. People really don't realize how poorly this test reflects ability - when I first took it, I took it cold and got a 1300 on it. I bought a cheapo study guide and then made a 2200 on it. The only thing I did was practice a little on the included online adaptive program and look at some of the TRICKS at getting quick and easy answers.
Regardless of your feelings about this particular case, does it seem to you like people, especially in America, are less ethical than they have been in previous generations or is that just "greatest generation" nostalgia? I'm pretty sure there is a lot more cheating now than there used to be even twenty years ago, leading to business practices like those seen at Tyco and Enron.
Syntax error: loose != lose, affect != effect, then!=than
A common misperception is that colleges exist to provide job training. While this might be true for majors such as nursing and architecture, it's not necessarily true for CS. A CS undergrad major might find himself or herself in the school of engineering, liberal arts or even business school, and each has a different set of requirements. The one thing that is important for any CS major is a good math background.
My quantum mechanics teacher has a very good solution to this. He had a file with 100 problems. An exam was a random draw of 3 of those. You could get all problems, plus all completely elaboreated answers from him if you asked for it. If you could memorize the correct answers to those 100 questions, you knew what was required for the subject...
No. The test was cancelled for the US as well. Read GRE's site here
Especially if you read the article, it states that the real problem was in China and India; as a result there will be no CS GRE in those countries this academic year. So not only will students from those countries face the generally tougher requirements that international students face when applying to US schools, but for this year they won't have the advantage of a GRE score which shows that they know what's what.
So no, it's not a tragedy because it doesn't affect students coming from the US, only those dirty foreigners.
Undergraduate entrance exams make sense; they verify that you have the prerequisite knowledge to take (pretty standard) undergraduate courses.
On the contrary, undergraduate entrance exams do not make sense because (okay, I'm only talking about the SAT here - limited experience), because they are so easy that all you need to do is be a good "test taker" and you can own them. Being a good test taker basically means approaching every question with the attitude that you can get the right answer because one of the choices is right and you've been exposed to the information needed to find it at some point in the past (by 9th grade, 10th grade at the latest). Little actual thinking and knowledge are required to get any question on the SAT correct.
As a result, anyone can do well on an undergraduate entrance exam, not necessarily people who are either smart or a good student. GREs are a little different in that the material is "hard", but they're still multiple guess. The requirement of having a hard multiple choice problem means that most problems have to fall into one of a few patterns of "ways you can make a multiple choice question hard." So again, good test takers can own the tests. Except this time, the amount of knowledge required is higher, indicating that the taker may have had to learn something as an undergrad. This means the test does a better job of measuring if the taker is a good student: a person who can readily learn what they do not already know (and work hard). Remember, "smart" people are not necessarily what a school desires. Graduate schools are a little more keen to this and therefore don't require the GRE or subject GREs as often as they require SATs/ACTs.
I'm not a smorgasbord.
Wait. You are wrong here.
Dozens and dozens of my friends and acquaintances (and myself) have taken the GRE, and based on their results, I can assert that, given that you study for the test seriously, it reasonably estimates your general aptitude. And that a GRE score is a reasonable measure of your academic skills, which when used along with other application materials, is really useful for admission decisions.
And the GRE Subject Tests are even more useful, since they objectively measure domain-specific knowledge, and tell you how much a student really knows about his subject. (cant rely solely on GPA!)
More importantly, however, there is one very significant positive point about the GRE, which just cannot be put down. The applicants to US Graduate School include a large number of students from dozens of different countries each having its own peculiar education system. Its almost impossible to compare such students coming from schools which the US schools have never even heard of before, let alone having some knowledge about their education quality. The GRE and other standardized tests are most helpful in this area because each and every student across the world has to give the same test, and hence the scores can be used to compare students coming from very different backgrounds.
I have found a solution to Riemann's Hypothesis, but have run out of spac
> This department recieves MANY applications from Asia and the GRE scores are a joke. Almost all of the applicants have a 99% percentile on ALL three sections of the general exam. And yet when they come here they can barely speak english.
And go easy on the sweeping generalizations. Maybe you are unaware that English is a first language in some of the countries from asia.
I did my undergrad from a well-known premier technology institute in the South Asian subcontinent and every EE and CS grad I knew there really earned his/her GRE score. Most of them were truly brilliant, had a firm command of English and I couldn't possibly imagining any of them cheating for a few extra points. They were ethical and proud brainiacs. Or perhaps I was lucky to have moved in such good company. I wouldn't deny that there were also other lesser mortals who cheated using all these cheap tactics as discovered by the ETS. But you be careful before making any sweeping generalizations.
There has been other cheating on the GRE uncovered this summer. AP had a story on how there were Korean and Chinese GRE cheat databases.
I'm sure that it's pretty common especially given the insane scores of some people on the exams. I've seen a lot of CS grad school applications where the scores do not match the person who shows up. I mean there are some seriously stupid people who have 99% on EVERY section of the GRE. Most often, you'd see someone with a 99% on the English portion of the test who'd show up and have an obviously low command of spoken and written English. Typically this was most obvious in Chinese students -- too bad because this is probably one of those "one bad apple" problems.
Of course I disagree with the whole idea of the CS portion of the exam. I mean I remember some stuff on there was just bizarre. Karnaugh maps and crap like that -- who cares?
Someone please explain this to me:
The GRE CS Subject test is (with the exception of this year) offered in April, November and December. Most applications for graduate programs are due in December (or Jan.1 at the latest). I was just starting to prepare for all of this in April, and was shocked to find that there were NO dates for the CS test (which is required or 'strongly recommended' by all the schools to which I'm applying) until November. Since it's a paper-based test, results take 4-6 weeks or so to get through to the schools. Which means that even taking the test in November, there's a chance that your school of choice won't get your CS scores by Dec. 15, a popular application deadline.
WHY? Why on EARTH would the test be offered in December and not, say, July or August? Is it just done that way to make life more frustrating for grad school applicants?
And now, on top of this, the november test is canceled. Thankfully, all the schools to which I'm applying said they're going to happily take late scores this year due to the cancellation, and that it won't affect my application process, but I must say it's driving me nuts that I'll still be worrying about and studying for the CS exam in the final weeks of the application process, when I'd rather be speaking with professors, gathering recommendation letters, and working on my statement of purpose. Instead, I'll still be making sure I've got the ins and outs of compiler design and plenty of other areas of CS that I don't ever plan to really study in depth fresh in my mind, and I won't even know what my scores are before I send in the application.
Oh, well. That's enough crankiness for one morning.
-Dan.
=== "Some people see the glass as half-empty. Others see it as half-full. I see the glass as too big." -G. Carlin.
I am a foreigner studying in US CS Grad School right now. I must say that it is more correct to take the _best_ students from whichever country they are, since they will add value to the department by doing better quality research, and also enhance the classroom experience. And the US Schools, in fact, really do that today - they take the best students.
I just feel that as we import more students, educate them, and then subsequently export them back to their country we have just devalued our own country a little bit more by shifting knowledge and skills to foreign lands.
Thats clearly happening. Lots of skills, knowledge, and technology is being transferred from the US to outside. But for a developing country like from where I am, this is important and very useful, and helps our country develop. Even otherwise, its good for society, since all countries should develop equally, right?
Also, many times, the foreign students do not go back to their country, so the USA benefits by having a high-skilled person added to the community...
So the present situation turns out to be beneficial for the US as well as other countries.
I have found a solution to Riemann's Hypothesis, but have run out of spac
In my experience (I was born here, my parents are from Taiwan), Americans are just not as interested in graduate school. Asians seem to value higher degrees (especially Ph.D.'s) much more than Americans.
To be honest, unless you're interested in academia and research, there isn't much reason to get a CS Ph.D. From a job/financial standpoint, you might as well start working straight from college.
Heck, when I was in college it seemed like a lot of the CS majors were just there for the job prospects. Those aren't the type of people who go to grad school. You have to have a real passion for the subject to want to slog through N years of grad school. Or you have to really want the letters after your name. Otherwise it ain't worth it.
Microsoft revoked the MCSEs of a few people who ran braindump sites. I think the two guys who ran BrainDump Heaven had their certifications revoked and are prohibited from being recertified. I posted a few full dumps myself, but after people started getting their certs revoked, I stopped. I think Cisco sent out warning letters to braindump sites as well, and after that most sites disappeared or went underground.
Ok, that may not mean much to you, but some consulting companies require the certification so they can tell their clients "our consultants are all certified". I wasn't going to risk multiple certifications which took me a couple thousand dollars.
The sites that still exist in the open make up their own questions, which may be like the exam questions but are not exam dumps. That's how they still operate.
-- If god wanted me to have a sig, he'd have given me a sense of humor.
Flash forward to now, where all the testing is outsourced to Prometric and other companies, who further outsource it to Mom 'N' Pop's MCSE Training School. Who's keeping them honest? The questions are downloaded right to their server; what's to stop them from selling them to whoever wants them?
The number one thing that killed the MCSE as a valid credential was the braindumpers who had access to the exam questions, or who could take the exams over and over again under the "old" retake policy. And given that Transcender makes tons of money selling practice tests, I'm sure they sent in a few test takers of their own. The same could be said for Kaplan.
Add this to the fact that many MCSE cheat schools have been busted for taking the exams for students, giving them help, etc. Makes you wonder how much is being leaked...
Granted, the general section of the GRE is an aptitude test. The only possible advantage you could have is access to the reading passages beforehand, or knowing what the logic questions looked like. But buying a test prep book gives you a general idea of what you see. However, the subject test is quite another story. That thing was a bear, and I was a good chemistry student. Several hours of random trivia questions, some in subjects we'd never even covered. There, access to the material beforehand would be a cheater's dream come true.
Sweet! With a User # of 2919, you're the oldest tiresome bore in my /. collection. Between that and making Blade Runner look stupid, you must be very proud.
Any sufficiently well-organized community is indistinguishable from Government.
"Select honest people" is a great mandate.
You might feel that would mean curtailing intake of foreign grad students. You'll have to explain that position very very well. The two statements are completely unrelated.
You'll also have to explain why US universities should be beholden to US citizens. US universities should work to become the best universities that they can.
After you show that, you'll have to prove that admitting fantastic foreign students does not improve the quality of education for the American students.
There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
So "domestic" == "honest", and "foreign" == "dishonest"? What, do you work for the Bush Administration or something?
Downmodding is the refuge of the weak. Don't downmod, make a better argument!
Admissions to a research program, like ours, is based on a bunch of different things. A good way to think of it is that your statement of purpose and your letters of recommendation are the things that build your case and everything else is an opportunity for you to shoot yourself in the foot.
First, on behalf of every professor inundated with e-mails, let me say that there's no benefit, whatsoever, in mass e-mailing every professor on the planet to see if they're interested in you. However, if you have a particular research interest that matches a particular professor (say, security of peer-to-peer systems or of mobile code systems, in my case), then do send that one professor a personal e-mail.
So, then, what makes for a good statement of purpose or good letters of recommendation? I always look for evidence that you've got technical interests beyond what you've done in class. I also look for evidence that you didn't just go to "how to get into grad school" school and follow their instructions blindly. Some of these letters just stink like they came from an insert-your-name-here template. Don't tell me "I have lots of energy!" Describe all the work that your energy has produced. Likewise, in many countries, it's customary for the student to write letters of recommendation on behalf of their advisors, who just sign them. Make your advisors write personal letters.
So, what value are the GRE scores? For the General GRE exam, there's some minimal value if the applicant is from the U.S. or Europe, but absolutely zero value if the applicant is from India or China. I don't know what they do over there, but every student seems to ace the exams, probably because they study so hard for them. The exams, thus, aren't measuring anything more than rote ability.
The CS subject test used to actually be useful and a strong score there would catch my attention (and a weak score was a huge red flag). Now, without that, we'll probably end up looking more at transcripts.
Still, let me emphasize, the best way to impress somebody like me is not with good grades or test scores, it's with research and technical experience beyond your class assignments. If you've worked with a professor on a research project, or if your code has found its way into the Linux kernel, that will get my attention (and I'll go look at the source to make sure you're telling the truth).
Obligatory plug: I'm looking for good security-minded students with strong backgrounds in systems and/or programming languages. If that's you, contact me.
I'm shocked that such a blatantly racist statement can get modded up on this board.
I'm sorry you were rejected from a whole slew of grad schools. I'm sorry your abilities, your knowledge and your intelligence were deemed inferior to a whole bunch of people inspite of the natural advantage you held as far as the language and accessibility of technology is concerned.
I'm sorry, universities are not run as a charity system. Most scholarships are paid for by industrial sponsors who want to see research results from their money.
I went to grad school at a top-10 school for CS. There is a whole slew of scholarships and opportunities that are available for US citizens and residents which are just not there for foreign students. As a result, many US students were admitted over much better international students. The few foreign students that were there were the cream of the class - and outdid most of the local students in terms of what they achieved for their professors and for the prestige of the university.
Mmmm.. Donuts
While I can't speak to the original posters admission problems, there are *serious* problems within many graduate programs that are pretty much in-line with the poster's gripes. To wit: many departments (and not just in CS) have in circles of foreign students who keep test libraries and who coach students in their sub-community not to learn the material but to just pass the tests. A similar pheomenon is observed at the undergrad level, but usually driven by greek organizations, in my experience. In many cases, faculty are either oblivious to the problem or don't have the time or teaching skill to "immunize" their evaluation metholodogy against this sort of attack.
Short form: honest and hardworking students get screwed in their grades, while know-nothing slackers sail on by... Personally, I don't care if the system allows some slackers -- some will squeak through. I am bothered when they mass in such numbers that the real talent is trampled underfoot.
Maybe this will force admissions officers to actually evaluate candidates, instead of relying on a standardized test administered by a "non-profit" that taxes graduate applicants all over the world to the tune of $100 each.
Call (206) 338-5780 COLLECT for information about a genuine BA, BS, MA, MS, MBA, or Ph.D.
Deal..
I applied for grad schools about 2.5 years ago, and got 5 rejection letters...
Did I hate 'abroad students'? No.. I did research and grad classes for 2 years, and tried again, last winter, and had a choice between two top shcools, in a much tougher year for grad schools.. I still got 3 rejection letters, but I got in.
Another thing, if you're applying to top schools, try setting your sights a little lower. There are enough spectacular faculty that *any* top-40 school will have them.
Finally, remember, a lot of the application process is chance and brownian motion. If a faculty member is interested in your particular skills&background, spectacular, if that member isn't on the admissions committee this year, better luck next year.
I know that some California state universities required 50th percentile or better in the computer science exam. This was a basic admission requirement for the Master's computer science program.
Computing Science is applied math.
Very few people can make a career from Computing Science. I suspect you are a programmer with a CS education, though. The point of a university education, in general, is not to prepare people for jobs. The purpose of it is to educate people, to teach them to think for themselves, and advance the human race. Even though most people that go into university never go onto graduate work / research or make any significant contribution, having informed and intelligent people in the world is a good thing.
Take a look at it this way: if the sole purpose of university was to get you a good job afterward, arts majors would get good jobs too. The truth is that arts majors go to work at McDicks when they graduate. Computing Science is one of those rare fields that most of the theory is directly applicable to creating marketable products. That is not to say that CS isn't actually something that is worth being in a university rather than a college (colleges & universities are different here in Canada). Computing Science has a lot more to it than programming. Too bad you wasted your education.
Buying a Dell computer is equivalent to dropping the soap in a prison shower.
As for selecting honest people, that's a noble sentiment, but it's difficult to determine honesty on an application, and it's not practical to interview all candidates.
I agree with most of your points, but this one is pretty simple. In the case of private universities, the answer is that they shouldn't. In the case of government funded universities, they should serve the interests of the citizens that government represents and acquires those funds from.
I took the CS GRE in April of 2001. I got back my results, which were decent (low 90s, percentile-wise) but I thought I could do better. When I eventually didn't get into the grad schools I wanted, I figured I'd take it again, giving the bloodsuckers at ETS another ~$150. I admit that this probably wasn't necessary, but oh well.
So I took the exam again April of 2002 and noticed that one of the questions had two correct answers. In fact, it was the only programming question on the exam and it was pretty trivial.
The test was on a Saturday. So I get ready to send a letter to ETS on Monday, when I find scores in my mailbox. "Man, a 2-day turnaround? When did they become efficient?" I thought. It turns out they were revised scores from the April 2001 test, which they had graded wrong. My score jumped to upper 90s without my doing anything. "Don't worry, we'll send new reports to all schools you sent your scores to", they said. Great, a lot of good that does me in April.
I sent in the letter, they admitted the question had two correct answers and wouldn't be scored, and I eventually got back scores, which were exactly the same as the revised 2001 results.
So, moral of the story -- don't take the test twice. Just take it once and assume that something will go wrong that's not your fault.
Hey, is this the Dave Chen who went to College Park High School? If so send me an email to carl_r_grace@yahoo.com!
While the tests themselves aren't being outsourced, the administration of them is, including proctoring, etc. Therefore, I see big security holes. Back in the paper administration days, ETS actually brought in their own proctors to handle security, etc. Now, you have two problems. The test is available whenever you want, and you can take it once a month, five times a year. This helps the braindump people. Second, the test center has a copy of the questions sitting on their super-secure file server, just waiting for an employee who wants a few extra bucks to pick them up.
This would be true if universities succeeded in their purpose.
/. comments.
Well, I think there purpose is exactly what we're trying to find out. We aren't arguing the same thing now. I contend that arts majors getting shitty jobs is irrelevant since they are still educated people... that being the reason they go to university.
Setting exams that are easy to cheat is just one example of failure.
I think that is the symptom of our problem. Universities are overrun by people who go their to get good jobs afterward. Maybe that changes the definition of a university, maybe it doesn't. The conceptual model of a university has existed before the industrial revolution. Long before that, people didn't go to university to get a job afterward. I think this still holds true, even though that model is taking a beating. Now, a higher education is very important because of our competativeness with knowledge. But the fact that people cheat, and they do, shows that those people don't go for the education, but for the peice of paper that comes after. This peice of paper, as they see it, entitles them to a job. If people were going there to be educated, then they wouldn't cheat because there really wouldn't be any reason to. There still are other people that go university to get an education in something interesting. Maybe it's just me being a geek, but that's what it should be.
This really comes down to (excuse the pun) "new-school versus old-school". This problem has been beaten to death many times in many different forms and I don't think that we could every solve it through
As for CS being applied math, cooking is not applied math. I think the word "applied" is ambigous, however. Cooking utilizes math in its use, but it is not mathematical in nature. Exactly the same thing in general science. Studying our world through science can utilize math and create mathematical models of real life, eg f=ma. But, computing "science" is something completely different. It is itself a form of mathematics. It is just the subset of mathematics that can be performed on calculating machines. Algorithms, complexity, problem solving etc, is not utilized, it is its nature. The reason it is called applied mathematics is because it is not exaclty pure mathematics. Pure math has no direct application by definition.
Buying a Dell computer is equivalent to dropping the soap in a prison shower.
Hmmm, you raise some interesting points.
But you appear to have romantic notions about the role of universities.
Originally, guilds had their own schools. Skills were transmitted in secrecy.
Knowledge is power and status, power and status define success in our societies.
Universities were created by governments to take power away from the guilds.
Especially, and primarily by and for men.
(There are fundamental differences in the way men and women acquire and use status.)
Universities were created to channel, transmit, and often control essential knowledge.
Only a species on holiday can say 'unapplied education is worth something'. It is not, IMHO.
Sig for sale or rent. One previous user. Inquire within.
Only a species on holiday can say 'unapplied education is worth something'. It is not, IMHO.
I agree that strictly unapplied knowledge isn't worth much in a global sense. This doesn't say much about real life though. There are many places one can apply their knowledge. This could be by voting, public debate (sort of like this), or making rational decisions for example. Just getting jobs for students should not be the focus of university. I am not saying that the knowledge should or cannot be applied. I am saying that a university education should be at a different level than this. Getting prepared for life is not the same as getting prepared to work. If a university teaches in a field where there is very little work for their graduates, it is not a failure of the university. Marketable skills change over time and what might have been a very promising career could be worth peanuts tomorrow. Market trends should not dictate human knowledge. We should not abandon seemingly useless subjects so that students can learn what is best for the economic viability of their nation. That is not what being educated is really about.
A job should really be an independant bi-product of a university education, not a result, if it were in the right field. That is why here, in Canada, universities and colleges are treated differently. A university is about higher education and research. College is about preparing people for a career. It would be a failure for a college to not provide skills for a useful job, but not a university.
Buying a Dell computer is equivalent to dropping the soap in a prison shower.
Incidentally, MIT requires neither the GRE General Exam nor the Computer Science Subject Test of applicants to their CS grad program.
Yeah yeah, we all know that testing sucks and is usually a poor indicator of anything real. However, the alternatives are not very pleasent either.
The best way to assess somebody would be to work with them in a long-term project, but that is not practical on a mass scale.
The best we can do without breaking the bank is a combination of interview, references, and testing. This is just what most colleges use.
If you have a magic solution, then lets hear it.
It is one of those things that are easy to gripe about, but hard to solve in practice and/or on a long-term scale. World hunger also fits that bill, BTW.
Table-ized A.I.
So no, it's not a tragedy because it doesn't affect students coming from the US, only those dirty foreigners.
Two points:
1. There are plenty of good schools for CS outside the US. People can apply to schools in their own country. Who said 'foreigner' meant "Not from the US"? If somebody doesn't have a good school in their country they'll have to wait a year which is not such a big deal.
2. I know it's a popular stereotype to portray people from the US as 'anti' anything that's not from the US, however the US is hardly the place to go if you're looking for an example population that hates foreigners. How many countries in the EU have recently had an election with popular candidates running on an anti-immigraton platform?
Selfishness is human nature, and you'll find selfish people in any country. Don't be so quick to label an entire countries worth of people because of what this one guy said.
Please note, that I have never even seen these tests, nor know anyone who has ... but I'll still pipe in :)
Instead of keeping the questions and answers "secret" ... create something like the amateur radio community has ... a large question pool (which is published), with a very limited number of questions actually asked.
The reasoning behind it, is for the sake of easily administering tests. Everybody knows the questions involved, and what you need to study is the theory behind it, not the answers ...
Now for something like this, you would have to have a HUGE question pool for each section, just to make sure that nobody knows WHICH question will be asked ... just make sure that you know the theory behind the question.
Obviously, you'll run into problems with programmable calculators being brought in, so a way to fix that would be to supply calculators (if necessary) that have all of the capabilities required.
Anyway ... just my thoughts on the process ...
Karma? Karma? I don't need no stinkin' karma.