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Microsoft Shuts Down Lik Sang
An anonymous reader writes "Microsoft has taken legal action, shutting down popular import gaming site Lik Sang for distributing X-box mod chips. Lik Sang is a popular import gaming site based out of Hong Kong. The full article (MSNBC) can be found here." Several people have pointed to the same story on news.com.
So MS can shut down an entire company for selling one product they don't like (selling a mod chip is not illegal where Liksang is located) by slapping them with a legal action?
It just goes to show you how abusive MS is, as if you needed any more evidence.
Mod chips, legal issues aside, are one of the "value adds" of the console market. Cracking down on this will drive Microsofts target audience away. Perhaps they've shot themselves in the foot with this.
perl -e 'print $i=pack(c5, (41*2), sqrt(7056), (unpack(c,H)-2), oct(115), 10)'
Many people yelled that it was just an upgrande and M$ was not telling me what to do with **MY** hardware. Well bite me, I knew M$ would prove me right.
I dont own an X-box, I dont own a mod chip, but M$ continues with the attitude that you will use this the way we want you to use this, you will not dieveate at all from our buisness plan or we will label you a pirate and sue your sorry butt..
Aren't most XBox mod chips basically BIOS replacements? Probably containing significant portions of Microsoft's original XBox BIOS?...
So it'd be a simple case of copyright infringement.
Everything else Lik-Sang sold, including GBA 'backup devices', PSX mods, and perfectly legit consoles, games, and accessories, were probably perfectly legal in most countries. Maybe they made a genuine mistake by stocking the XBox mods - not knowing they may have contained Microsoft's code?
This is insane! I mean, what if Ford started shutting down shops that trick out cars? Would the people stand for that? My rule, if I buy it, it's MINE! I don't give a darn WHAT the EULA says. EULA isn't exactly a strong legal document.
haiku
add architecture
without the borg's consent?
enlist the lawyers.
\haiku
This space for rent.
Hmmm... Sony allows mod chips, stock goes up. Microsoft doesn't allow modchips, stock goes down. Go get 'em Microsoft!!
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Fascism should more properly be called corporatism, since it is the merger of state and corporate power.
Ahh so kill em all and let God sort them out? Whats that you want to back up your games, well screw you because little Billy down the street is a theif so you probably are to...
Easybuy.
For now, at least.
Note: I have no affiliation with LikSang, or EasyBuy - they're just pretty similar. LikSang had a larger variety of video-game oriented products, but EasyBuy has most of the more popular modchips as well.
This sig is xenon coated, and will glow red when in the presence of aliens
I'm already reading stuff on here from users about how MS is now telling them what to do with the property they bought. This is NOT what is happening! You as a user can open up your XBox and hack the hardware as much as you want, hack it so it bypasses whatever security's in there, they won't care. However, take that hack and turn it into a business for yourself by manufacturing hardware and selling it IS what they will move against. In my opinion, they have every right to do that, and it has nothing to do with a monopoly on anything. Just my opinion! Comments?
"I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar."
-Hoban Washburn
Wow, since I cant get my mod chips off Lik Sang, next time Microsoft asks me "Where do I want to go today?", Ill be sure to say "Hong Kong, so I can buy my mod chip"...
... Micro$oft has just announced the availability of the Monopoly game for the Xbox.
In times of universal deceit, telling the truth gets you modded -1 Troll
Sony slaps PS2 chippers
that doesnt read like they are somebody who "allows mod chips"
.. a couple years back, lik-sang had a similar run-in with nintendo over the N64 backup devices. They eventually got N to back off after they decided not to ship any units to North and Central America.
Perhaps the same type of thing could happen with MSFT.
Though I wonder if the mod in question, the PC-BIOXX/OpenXbox, counts as illegal. It is, in essence, a blank flashROM.
You attach it to the xbox, and completely replace the xbox' bios with whatever you flash to the chip. So it could be used to run a hacked xbox bios that plays pirated code, it could be used to run the linux bios, or it could be used to run the retail bios (if the one on the mobo got fried).
You could even use it on a PC mobo just as easily, if you wanted to play BIOS hacker. It's just a plain-vanilla 2mbit flashrom for the LPC header.
I mean, is the device itself illegal just because it has some illegal use?
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
Microsoft doesn't want people to have the right to do what they wish with the products they buy.
Yes, these modchips facilitate piracy. But they also have legitimate uses on every console they exist for. Not to mention that people should be able to use the modchip for "copied" games so long as those are backup copies.
Lik Sang offered plenty of legitimate products for people who enjoy modding their consoles, tinkering, homebrew developmenet, etc. Of course, Microsoft doesn't want people to tinker and mod for ANY reason, because this undermines the next step in MS's business plan.
Microsoft is trying very hard to establish a sense that you don't own your X-Box, but they do. With Palladium, they are going to extend that idea to the PC... you don't own your computer... MS does.
Microsoft is going to use their money and power to take out any companies like Lik Sang in the future that give people the ability to mod their X-Box, or mod their PC's hardware after Palladium is released.
"You spoony bard!" -Tellah
Perhaps no crimes are committed in the production or installation of them.
Say I go buy a used '89 Chevy pickup from a used car dealership. Perfectly legal.
There's a company in town called Classic Roadsters. They've produced a modded body for the '89 line of Chevy pickups that is very similar looking to a Hummer. Perfectly legal (the body shape doesn't breach any size requirements stipulated by the DOT).
but consider that most users would utilize their modchip to play copied games or ROMs or Linux, etc.
Now, say I took that modded truck, dressed myself into some army get-up, and drove onto the local army base, pretending to belong to the armed services (I don't). Now I'm doing something illegial.
My point is this: the XBox is a piece of physical hardware. It can be patented. It cannot be licensed. Once I purchase an XBox (if I ever do), I will OWN it 100%. Nothing that Microsoft ever says or does can change that. If I want to take the bloody thing apart and turn it into a toaster oven, Microsoft can't do a thing about it.
People have outfitted their cars for over 60 years now making them better. Say I had a beat-up Ford pickup that didn't work anymore, so I put in an engine from a Dodge pickup so I could get the Ford working again (please don't tell me if this is possible or not... I don't know, but it's all for the sake of argument). I don't think Dodge or Ford would complain. I'm sure you know someone who put a new stereo system into their car. They didn't have to buy a whole new car to get that stereo system they wanted. They put one into their own car so they could have better sound. People soup up their cars all the time specifically so that they don't have to buy a new car just to get the same features. It's perfectly legal to do so. It should be perfectly legal to do the same with consoles.
Xbox is sold at a loss.Microsoft needs to sell games for the xbox in order to recoup the losses it incurs for every unit sold.
Tough shit. Do you see Lincoln selling their Towncar at $9,999 brand new missing an air conditioner, and then selling air conditioners for $20,000 more? And on top of it all, making the Towncar so that no other AC would work in it except for Lincoln's own AC? Of course not! But this is what Microsoft is doing! Don't blame the customer for finding a better deal which is less profitable to Microsoft.
I never, ever post here, mostly because Slashdot is so packed nowadays it's probably already been said. But I feel compelled.
All of you saying Microsoft has the right to do this:
Are you all complete and utter retards? Does this really have to be explained to you anew each time something actions such as this (Not necessarily by Microsoft) has been taken?
Let's try again, slowly for those of you who can't understand it.
1) Although there aren't enough details available (That I've seen) to judge this particular instance, virtually every time a purveyor of products that let you change what you've legally purchased to do something else gets shut down it is NOT with actual legal action, it is with the THREAT of legal action. The sickening fact of all this isn't whether or not these entities are within their legal right to do this, but that the question is never asked. Lawsuits are so onerous that the mere threat of one is sufficient to stop what MAY BE legal. The crucial legal court test NEVER OCCURS.
2) The 'slippery slope', while being largely a strawman argument, in cases like this is perhaps valid. If you don't think ANY hardware company is absolutely DROOLING at the prospect of extending it's reach far beyond the change of posession (purchase) of a product you're living in a fantasy world. Precendents such as this will of course start with a basis in what are apparently legal and moral positions, right now in the name of stopping piracy, but there is absolutely no reason to stop there. Once you've established the precedent of extending so-called 'rights' beyond the customer taking posession of your product you have infintely more control over what they can and cannot do, spanning legal and illegal uses.
3) The fact that devices such as mod chips (And P2P networks, for that matter) have both legitimate and illegitimate uses is not just a side argument. It is important to realize that many freedoms enjoyed by Americans (And for that matter, citizens of many other countries) are freedoms that could be used for both legitimate and illegitimate purposes. Drawing comparisons between the use of mod chips and free speech is more than just hyperbole, it is an attempt to illustrate that once you start allowing the restriction of something based on it's (in this case potentially) illegal uses you are setting a very dangerous precedent, and one that because of the DMCA has criminal and not just civil ramifications.
The DMCA is the bridge between a civil lawsuit brought by Microsoft and someone going to jail for making or using something that could be used to violate IP 'rights'. If you still don't believe me, ask yourself why they need the DMCA then? Why was it necessary for the government to enact legislation that allows companies and the government to take punitive actions against those who violate IP, or more accurately those who MAKE things that COULD be used to violate IP, rather than stick with civil proceedings? (Even the threat of which, I might add, seem to work just fine.) In other words, if you're going to say no one's going to get sent to jail for this, why is there a law that says you will? Do you honestly think that mod chip makers should go to jail?
4) Microsoft's choice to sell their products (X-box) at a loss does not automatically give them the legal right to take any and all action they see fit to try and make money through other means, in this case through game licenses. It's been said time and again but you still don't seem to get it, just because somebody WANTS to make money doesn't mean they GET to. It's very possible that their choice to try and pursue this method of profit is foolish and could result in failure due to the boxes being modded for uses besides purchasing the products they do make money on, but because of point (1) we may never know. By using the threat of legal action they may have secured a business model that is unavailable to other companies without as deep pockets. Do you think Microsoft would have succeeded in beating down Lik Sang if Microsoft were a small startup? (Not that X-box's major competitors, such as Sony, are small startups.) No. They can do this because of point (1), and because other companies realize the law being on their side (perhaps) is a moot point. In this case, Might Makes Right.
I hope this explains a bit to those of you comparing modding your X-Box to rolling your odometer back on your car (boggle) or simply accusing posters of being Microsoft/other large coporate entity bashers. It IS about essential rights, albeit indirectly, whether you choose to believe ir ot not.
-- If we were in any other industry they would've shot us a long time ago.
The chips typically allow a game machine to play legally and illegally copied discs, run unauthorized software and play game discs intended for other geographic regions.
Unauthorized by who?
People have established that Microsoft isn't attacking hackers directly. If you want to open up your xbox and piss on the circuits, BillyBorg can't stop you. If you manufacture and sell commercially a means to circumvent or alter their code, they can. The real question is, why?
Basically, MS could care less about someone making money doing this. What they really care about is what this enables. A commercial outfit, manufacturing and selling components *enables* virtually all people to purchase xboxes with the *intent* of using them for alternate purposes. If they leave hack-shops unchecked for long, they have basically allowed a competing market to develop against what they really want to sell - games and service.
If I want to purchase an xbox because I want to mod it AND I know I can just buy a chip online with ease, Microsoft would rather not sell me the xbox in the first place. Since they can't discriminate against buyers, they can make it more difficult for me to purchase a chip. Microsoft is not targetting the hardcore hackers. If you want to hack an xbox that badly and you have the skills, you'll do it. Who they *are* targetting is the average Joe Sixpack who buys an xbox. If he buys it and later sees he can easily purchase and install a mod to do things like play pirated games or run a webserver, Microsoft has just lost marketshare in the market that counts.
THAT's what they are trying to stop. Not hacking, but the widespread usage of manufactured mods by average users.
The problem is that the mod chip contains leaked code from the dev version of the x-box, which you didn't buy. They're basically selling pirated software. That's why MS is angry- what's on the chip, not the fact that there's a chip.
Username taken, please choose another one.
There's a lot of "This is typical of M$", "Antitrust ... etc.", and "This just goes to show they have too much power," going around.
BS. Plain and simple.
This is STANDARD industry practice. Do some research before you start going off on a big rant about how evil MS is. (Which may be true, but not because of this. lol)
Sony has sued or threatened to sue just about EVERY SINGLE mod-chip maker and retailer during the last year. They have threatened and/or sued installers and resellers of mod chips, as well as sued the mod chip makers into the ground multiple times.
Nintendo isn't much better. But Sony has been hyper-aggresive about this. I have friends in Germany who run a console modding business, yet refuse to do anything related to the PS2 due to Sony's legal threats to them.
This is not a Microsoft thing. It is a console thing. That's all there is to it.
-Jayde
What's a sig?
The EULA doesn't have ANYTHING TO DO with the shutting down of this website. Microsoft would most likely be suing Lik Sang for violating either the DMCA or IP rights (more likely IP rights, I would think, but IANAL). Microsoft has said before that they're NOT interested in punishing individual mod chippers, just mass distributors of mod chips.
Thus, you MAY do whatever you want to YOUR XBox and Microsoft won't care. The only caveat to this is if you're logged onto XBox Live -- Microsoft has reserved the right in the Live EULA to revoke the login rights of people with mod chips. This may piss some of you off, but do you really want people with mod chips on XBox Live? No, it could turn into CounterStrike before PunkBuster, with half of the people online cheating.
FYI, it was announced today that Charles James, current head of AntiTrust division at DoJ, and who crafted the sell-out settlement, is resigning to become Cheveron's general counsel. Article is here.
"If they illegally copied, modified, and resold their copyright materials, yes."
You are correct, sir.
I do not know if the modchips contain copyrighted MS code. I suspect some do and some don't depending on the method used.
If they do not, however, NO ONE is reselling copyrighted materials.
Your example is slightly incorrect, too. There is no difference between what a reseller of mod-chipped xboxes is doing, and a reseller of modified cars, except that only an idiot would sell the reseller a car at a loss. How can you claim that "Company A" is keeping "all the profits?" when "Company B" has no profit to start with? If "Company B" has a poorly designed product that they can't manufacture at a low enough cost to keep up with their competition AND make a profit, why should the courts enforce their profits? Is it illegal to buy an xbox and then just leave it sitting around? Hardly. Yet that leaves MS in exactly the same money-losing situation as putting a mod chip in and using it for legal purposes.
Pirating games is illegal. Building a modchip containing modified MS XBox BIOS code is illegal. Building a modchip that contains no MS code and using it to play a European game or make backups of your games is legal.
Here is some background of Lik Sang. It is a small shop that sell console games and accessories sited inside Golden center in Hong Kong. (In case you don't know, Golden center is a very very very popular computer/games/console/software center for HK ppl and tourist) The shop is no bigger than 200 square feet. There are like a dozen more of those small shops in the Golden center that sell similar stuff. And you know what? Every single shop there sell mod-chips and pre-modded console. Hong Kong ppl already used to buy/play private games, since the era of Nitendo.
The reason why M$ only go after LikSang is that they are high profile. They sell mod-chips online. There are in fact hundreds of those shop out there in HK sell mod-chip/pre-modded console, they just don't do it online. M$ might be able to stop LikSang sell the chips online, but they can't do shit other than that.
I am not saying buying/play private games are right, but HK ppl are so used to it that it becomes the norm. One thing is interesting I would like to share with you guys. The way they sell private console games in HK is kind of funny. Console games usually don't sell in Golden center, since this is such a popular tourist spot. Ppl sell consoles games usually in some shop next to Golden center. When you walk in to those shops, you see private games on racks. However, you see no sales or shopkeeper. There is a paper basket next to the door with money and changes inside. All you need to do is to pick your game and put money into the paper baskets before you leave the shop. Usually, "shop keeper" either pretend to be a shopper or watching outside of the shop. Just make sure you did put money into that basket or someone will beat the crap out of you if you don't. So, if police or whoever come, they can't do anything since they can't find the shop keeper.
Private console CD games are usually around $3 US dollars each and around $8 US dollars for DvD games.
Okay, I stand corrected.
You can think whatever you want. These companies have vastly less R&D money and legal funding then Microsoft Does. Like i said in my original statements Nintendo chose an uncommon media format, and Sony chose to sell a linux kit. Neither company supports mod chipping and for all intents and purposes it always invalidates your warranty and support. That my friend, is idiotic.
I didn't say they supported it, I said they didn't bother shutting down Lik-Sang. They did the math, and it wasn't rational to expend an iota of effort to shut them down. I don't know the exact sizes of the companies involved here (I suspect Sony is way larger than you think...) but for Sony or Nintendo crushing Lik-Sang would be absolutely nothing (just as it was to Microsoft).
Wait, are you now saying companies are idiotic for not extending warranty coverage to modded hardware?
Yeah, successfull doen't mean there the best. Ford Focus's are a top seller, but they still suck ass. Porches and Ferraris are kick ass cars and don't sell very many, but that doesn't make them less valuable then the pintos and station wagons.
What, are you a NeoGeo fan, or something? Hey, don't get me wrong, I am not a big playstation fan, but what the fuck does the quality of the console have to do with the impact of modchipping? They sold the most units, they had the most games and the only way modchipping would hurt is if developers refused to write software--instead developer support for sony systems was and is incredible.
It has NOTHING to do with LINUX. Absolutely NOTHING.
You offered no reason why it has nothing to do with Linux, and I offered a whole lot why it has nothing to do with stealing games (how many consumers do you think go at their hardware with a soldering iron?) I'm not saying Linux on xbox would REALLY hurt Microsoft, but just listen to Ballmer--those guys REALLY HATE LINUX. I mean, think--we Slashdot people get all upset about it when most of us are browsing here with Explorer. Imagine how much more pissed you'd be if it was your JOB. Imagine if some long-haired hippies called you a thief as they tried to limit your ability to put food on your families table (from their perspective). They can't stand having the enemy's flag on their flagship, ever.
Whatever, tell that to sony when you copy their dvd's, tell that to the RIAA when your trading pirated MP3's.. Just because you "CAN" doesn't mean microsoft should let it slide. You can own a gun, but they're not meant to shoot people. Do you think owning a gun means you can do anything you want with it? Does owning your dvd mean you can now sell copies of it because you can?
Obviously, intellectual property and firearms are special cases--there are special LAWS (chosen by the GOVERNMENT, not the manufactuer) restricting my usage of those things.
Does owning your dvd player mean you can modify it to play other region dvd's and copied movies? Hardware, like a video game console, like a dvd player, is MINE. Only the government restricts my use of it. I apologize for calling you an idiot when I screwed up so badly regarding the Dreamcast, but lets just say greater thought would have saved you from a few mistakes you've posted today.
Why would they want to allow you to change the way there product operates when you choose to mod the thing and electricute yourself or break the thing in the process?
Holy disingenuous, Batman! Yeah, THAT's why they shutdown Lik-Sang, to prevent electrocutions they would in no way every be held responsible for. Better make all electrical tools illegal for non-engineers!
I'm sorry, but fuck Michrosoft's whiny bitch ass with a big rubber mickey mouse dick. This is just out of line.
If you read my past comments you'll see I don't usually flame, but this is ridiculous.
Mod me up, scotty.
I mean, Jesus...