Microsoft Shuts Down Lik Sang

An anonymous reader writes "Microsoft has taken legal action, shutting down popular import gaming site Lik Sang for distributing X-box mod chips. Lik Sang is a popular import gaming site based out of Hong Kong. The full article (MSNBC) can be found here." Several people have pointed to the same story on news.com.

Comments

Abuse of power?

[gleffler]

So MS can shut down an entire company for selling one product they don't like (selling a mod chip is not illegal where Liksang is located) by slapping them with a legal action?

It just goes to show you how abusive MS is, as if you needed any more evidence.

Re:Abuse of power?

[Copperhead]

You are forced to sell it at a loss because of market pressure.

How is anyone "forcing" Microsoft to do anything?

Re:Abuse of power?

[Anonvmous Coward]

So basically you're saying

"I'm selling a product at a loss using the assumption people will give me money later on"

Well if the X-Box is such a loss for MS maybe they should leave the console business

Following that logic, Sony, Nintendo, and Gillette would not be in business today.

Re:Abuse of power?

[DrEldarion]

I honestly can't believe you're asking that question.

If Microsoft sold the X-Box for $400, do you HONESTLY thing many people would buy it when there are two alternatives?

If they want to sell any of them, they're FORCED to compete with the prices of the other consoles, or nobody will buy one.

-- Dr. Eldarion --

Re:Abuse of power?

[Anonvmous Coward]

"Why is the parent marked as a troll but it was correcting the original troll taht claimed all consoles sell at a loss... any true geek knows this is not true."

Nope, you're both wrong. Playstation 2, for example, sold at a $100 loss in Japan. This is actually quite a common thing in the game industry. The original Playstation was sold at a loss as well.

Re:Abuse of power?

[Anonvmous Coward]

"How is anyone "forcing" Microsoft to do anything?"

I'm starting to think that few people commenting on Slashdot have any idea how economics works.

Playstation 2 drops price, GameCube drops price, suddenly XBOX is the expensive guy on the block. MS was forced to drop price to keep up. It's called competition.

I can't wait to hear the next illogical argument. "well MS didn't have to drop their price. They just did it because they want to piss people off!"

Re:Abuse of power?

[Quarters]

If you can't sell your product at a profit, you're in the wrong business (especially if it's something as magnificently non-essential as a freaking games console).
Time to fold up your trestle table and go home.

Right...and the fact that Nintendo has run with this business strategy for close to 25 years now and has more $ in the bank than you could ever imagine is just a fluke?

Re:Abuse of power?

[martyn s]

No. You're referring to what people call the "razor blade" business model, and it's perfectly legitimate. But should the LAW come in and close down other businesses which might conflict with someone's razor blade business? Sorry, but no. What's good for GM is good for America, right?

Re:Abuse of power?

[tshak]

You should reevaluate your stance. Many objectively (read: w/o blind MS hate) agree that the XBox is the most powerful system and the most elegant to develop for. It was most definitely not poorly engineered.

The PS2 lost money initially and so did the Gamecube. Granted, the XBox is losing money a littler longer then the other two, but it's still very typical for the industry.

But none of this really matters. The fundamental point is that money for console systems has always been made off the royalties off the games, not the hardware. Sony is just as aggressive against piracy devices as MS is.

Re:Abuse of power?

[N3WBI3]

Pardon me sir but have no clue what engineering is. its not about the biggest building, fastest car, best gaming system. Engineering is about gathering your requirements, and implimentg them in a cost efficent, yet powerful manner. If I design a game system that hase a PPU which is much higher than the competition I have done a piss poor job of engineering it. My 2,500 dollar computer is more powerful than the xbox but if it were designed as a gaming system it would be a piss poor design because of its cost.

the reason XBox is losing more money for longer than PS2 is because PS2 was better engineered to fulfil the market requirements as a reasonable cost.

Re:Abuse of power?

[Anonvmous Coward]

"I haven't seen Nintendo screaming and yelling cuz of flash carts..

In fact the whole reason why I bought my GBA was because I wanted to program it.."

I believe the product was called 'Flash Linker', and yes Nintendo was very aggressive about getting it shut down.

Sony's done similar stuff against mod chips.

Frankly, the only reason this is of interest to Slashdot is because it's bent out of shape until it looks like MS is being an aggressive bully.

Re:Abuse of power?

[Anonvmous Coward]

"But should the LAW come in and close down other businesses which might conflict with someone's razor blade business?"

Argument Rejected: Apples != Oranges.

Re:Abuse of power?

[Sloppy]

Inability to compete does not imply that someone is forcing something.

Re:Abuse of power?

[Anonvmous Coward]

"Inability to compete does not imply that someone is forcing something."

Really? So if I put a gun to your head and say "Give me your money or you die", then I'm not forcing you to give me your money?

I mean you do have a choice there. It's not my fault that you don't have a bulletproof skull.

Re:Abuse of power?

[irix]

Here's an economics lesson for you:

We both sell widgets for $10, but mine only cost me $5 to manufacture, while yours cost you $9. I drop my price to $7. What do you do?

If you are Microsoft and you have $billions in the bank, you eat the loss and drop your price to try and compete. But don't come crying to me that you are losing money hand over fist every time you sell a widget.

Sorry, I don't have any sympathy for Micorosft here. Somebody might have "forced" them to drop their price, but nobody forced them to be stupid enough to manufacture a console more expensively than everyone else and then sell it with a game lineup that makes me yearn for my Atari 2600.

Re:Abuse of power?

[raygundan]

MS may have been forced to drop their price to keep up with their competition, but that's the way economics works, as you so bluntly point out.

If you build a product that is more expensive than a similar one from a competitor, expect people to buy the cheaper one. If you can't make yours cheaper, don't expect regulation to help you make up the cost difference. There is no inherent right to make profit in a capitalist system-- if you can't get your production costs down as low as your competitors, you will be priced right out of the market. This happens all the time.

Why should microsoft be able to sell things at a loss with profits ensured by law, while their competitors are capable of making a profit on the hardware even at lower price points? (Nintendo is making a profit on the gamecube at $150)

But I digress. All of this is nearly irrelevant in the first place-- mod chips are no more illegal than guns. Just because they can be used illegally does not make them intrinsically illegal. (Unless they contain copyrighted code by MS!!) Whether or not MS has to lower their prices below cost to keep up with their competition's superior designs has no bearing on whether or not modchips are legal.

Re:Abuse of power?

[JWW]

But will you change your tune in the future when Microsoft shuts down all the Palladium mod chip manufacuters and you can no longer run Linux on a new PC.

Look at this current action by Microsoft. The XBox is the test system for a secure PC that only runs Microsoft code.

Palladium's only reason for existince (I believe) is to be used to prevent any OS (or application for that matter) to not run without Microsofts consent. It will undoubtedly be the most evil thing Microsoft will ever do and failure to respond to issues like this will only help them achieve there goals.

Tell everyone you know not to buy an XBox.

The real difference here between MS and the other console manufacturers is that Microsoft is hellbent on bringing this kind of crap to your PC. Palladium must fail.

Re:Abuse of power?

[scot4875]

I don't know that I'd call DirectX programming elegant. It's very functional, but not elegant.

And no, it's not poorly engineered. It's not well engineered either. It's a PC. It works for what they needed it to do.

The PS2 is well-engineered, despite being difficult to program. The Gamecube is a feat of engineering. A suffuciently powerful, cheap to produce, tiny package that plays good games.

--Jeremy

Re:Abuse of power?

[SubtleNuance]

the XBox is losing money a littler longer then the other two, but it's still very typical for the industry.


do you have any proof of this? other than the industry-types who make this assertion to make people buying the consoles in the first place feel like they are getting a good deal? I dont believe - not for a second - that all three are taking a loss on their consoles. Not for a goddamn second.

Re:Abuse of power?

[HiThere]

Do you really feel that Nintendo being an aggressive bully would justify MS doing the same?

Mind you, I don't remember the issue. I can't tell whether your report matches what was reported as news. But it wouldn't justify anything either way. An abusive bully doesn't cease to be an abusive bully merely because others act the same way.

Re:Abuse of power?

[cheezedawg]

But will you change your tune in the future when Microsoft shuts down all the Palladium mod chip manufacuters and you can no longer run Linux on a new PC.

You will always be able to run Linux on a PC with Palladium hardware- that was one of the design requirements.

The XBox is the test system for a secure PC that only runs Microsoft code.

No, the goal of Palladium is to provide a hardware backed secure method for an application to store data- it does not include any method to prevent an application from running.

Palladium's only reason for existince (I believe) is to be used to prevent any OS (or application for that matter) to not run without Microsofts consent.

Considering it isn't even possible for Palladium to prevent anything from running, your beliefs are incorrect.

Re:Abuse of power?

[Anonvmous Coward]

"Eventually they knock down the competition enough to win."

And mod chips are competition? Nope. They are 100% non-competitive. As a matter of fact, mod chips make people wantXBOXes.

They are circumvention devices. You might have thought about that if this article were about Sony and not Microsoft.

Re:Abuse of power?

[Anonvmous Coward]

Cliches don't really solve problems.

Re:Abuse of power?

[Anonvmous Coward]

"Do you really feel that Nintendo being an aggressive bully would justify MS doing the same?"

No, that's not what I was saying. What I was saying was that people are bitching about it only because it's about MS this time around. Nintendo does it, no problem. Sony does it, no problem. Microsoft does it, and suddenly it's wrong.

You all need an attitude adjustment. To you guys, this isn't about right or wrong, it's about nailing MS. Frankly, I think debates like that have no substance. This thread has generated nearly 40 replies, and most of them are attacks at me, as opposed to having alternative points of view with any substantial relevance.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: If Slashdot goes into an uproar every time MS makes a headline, then nobody will ever listen to Slashdot when MS really does something rotten. "oh, it's just Slashdot, they hate EVERYTHING Microsoft does." It'd be kind of like "The Boy Who Cried Wolf".

Re:Abuse of power?

[Anonvmous Coward]

"You're like those people who justify anything with "evolution". "Hey, why should we save endangered species, they're dying out because they can't survive. That's evolution, survival of the fittest"."

You use irrelevant metaphors to prove me wrong, and I need to grow up? What's the matter, don't you have any real substance to your debate? Need to sugar-coat it a bit? heh.

Sorry, your comments will not cause me to lose any sleep. Good day, sir. :)

Re:Abuse of power?

[Sj0]

You aren't much better yourself; what possessed you to go and try to label hundreds of thousands of people(hundreds in this article alone)?

Personally, I see P2P as a useful tool, especially for situations such as the last week, where traditional FTP sites were all too bogged down to get either Mandrake 9.0 or RedHat 8.0(I pity the fools who tried hosting both!!!!). There are plenty of people using Kazaa-kin for pirating music, software, movies, TV shows, and so on though. The fact that there isn't a legitimate way to do things like get streaming TV stations over the internet(or better, just download episodes of TV shows for viewing at your leisure, the real reason so many people like using things like kazaa for downloading TV shows) only makes the situation worse. It's going to be one hell of a hard sell to convince the public that one of the coolest and most useful applications of the computer age should be ignored because it's immoral, especially when there's no other way of doing things. Instead of making a copy of a movie right now, I have the option to rent it. If I want to get it off the internet, I have one option. The "outdated business models" arguement has become irritatingly cliched, and often used when it doesn't apply(like in this case, where it's just one company who likes to have it's customers by the balls -- the internet has nothing to do with it; the console industry is the same today as it was a decade ago with the cardridge readers for SNES), but it still holds some water when you consider that the entertainment industry in general(there are some exceptions, such as Valve software, and their steam concept) is trying to destroy and silence a popular new medium.

Re:Abuse of power?

[God! Awful]

But I digress. All of this is nearly irrelevant in the first place-- mod chips are no more illegal than guns. Just because they can be used illegally does not make them intrinsically illegal.

Unlicensed guns are illegal. If you would like Microsoft and Sony to get started on the national mod chip registration database, I'm sure they could oblige.

-a
If kiddie pr0n was illegal, only criminals would have kiddie pr0n.

Re:Abuse of power?

[Anonvmous Coward]

"How can a more intelligent forum of critical thinkers throw out logic and be so...emotionally biased?"

Heh. These people should turn to the Vulcan way of life. Not only would they be more intelligent and logical, they'd also have sex waaaay more often!

Re:Abuse of power?

[Anonvmous Coward]

"Care to explain your reasoning? I mean, that *is* what a forum like this one is for, isn't it?"

No I don't care to. You're not going to listen to me. No matter what I say, you're going to disregard it with a metaphor that may sound like it fits, but ultimately has no relevance at all.

Prove to me that you'll actually try to understand my point (Note: understand != agree) and I'll give you the response you want. Otherwise, FUCK OFF.

Re:Abuse of power?

[mabinogi]

Sony do not sell at a loss, and Nintendo never did either, untill the Game Cube

Sega started that with the Saturn, and then the Dreamcast.

Looks like they left the console buisness.

Re:Abuse of power?

[Anonvmous Coward]

"Look at this current action by Microsoft. The XBox is the test system for a secure PC that only runs Microsoft code."

The XBOX is a game machine. Let me say it again, XBOX is a game machine. It is a machine that plays games. It does nothing but play games, and optionally playback movies. (Just like a Playstation 2...)

It cannot:

1.) Browse the web
2.) Word Processing
3.) Get email
4.) Post on Slashdot ... etc.

Could it? Maybe. Is anybody going to use it for that? Well it's funny you should mention that, those mod-chips allow Linux to be installed. Suddenly all these things can happen!

You idiots are trying to turn it into a PC! MS is trying to keep it a game machine. Seems to fly right in the face of your non-existent point, doesn't it?

Re:Abuse of power?

[Anonvmous Coward]

"I dont believe - not for a second - that all three are taking a loss on their consoles. Not for a goddamn second."

I don't believe it.. I won't believe it.. you can't make me believe it! NOOOOO!!!!!

Yes, the Playstation 2 was sold at a loss, so was the original Playstation. It's actually very common. The game company tries to squeeze just a little more interesting crap into a system, but they eat the cost of it. Eventually they make up for it with the sale of games.

Nintendo's strategy is a little different "Make the design as effecient as possible". They don't go for frills.

Re:Abuse of power?

[N3WBI3]

Yea because its not like there is an 'e' key anywhere near the 's', oh wait there is..

Re:Abuse of power?

[N3WBI3]

I never said the cheapest was the best, if you build to a specification which is so high in price you cannot compete in the market you design is worthless.

This is not **TOTALLY** an engineering failure, I am sure some bean counter is at fault as well. The xbox is overdesigned as a gaming console, hence they are losing much more money per unit than anybody else in the market. This is not a good design.

When I say its bad engineering I am talking about the organisations engineering process not the individule engineers designing a board. The process clearly failed, you have created a product which if sold at a reasonable loss could not compete in the market.

To my mind the best product is the one which best fits the use it was designed for, not one which is so overdesigned it can not survive at a competative price. Innovation is not throwing a ton of money at a problem, its finding a way to do it in an affordable manner.

Take a Sports car, if you are designing for the rich its ok to build out a very very expensive spec, but you have to charge for it. You can build a BMW and expect it to compete with a Dodge Neon at price.

IEEE, HKN (I to am an Engineer)..

Re:Abuse of power?

[tshak]

Open up the box again. It may use x86 components but come on. What PC has a unified memory architecure?

Re:Abuse of power?

[tshak]

Pardon me sir but have no clue what engineering is.

Welcome to the real world. This is not acadamia purist BS. Noone said it's just about being the fastest, but it's the fastest, easiest to develop for amonth the 3 consoles (GC coming in a close second), and it's cost of production is theoretically decreasing quickly because of the use of standard parts.

The design of the XBox is in it's first generation, but it's a very good design. Thank you for insulting my intelligence though.

Re:Abuse of power?

[N3WBI3]

There is a difference between not knowing what Engineering is and not being intelligent. I did not mean to insult you personally, sorry. But do not be so insecure about what others say, and do not assume because someone disagrees with you they are insulting you.

I work in the real world, In corporate America. I am up to my eyes in the real world so dont presume I am some 1st year Engineering student who thinks they know it all. I am not privy the the ppu cost of the X-Box so it could be coming down in price, I dont really know, But I do know it still cost at most retaillors about 269 dollars, where as you can get a PS2 for about 200$ (Both at BJ's price club).

As you have used the word theoretically decreasing I am assuming that you are also not privy to the ppu of the xbox either. My point is that for its use it is a piss poor design, and it were any other company but one with the pockets of MS I would already be a collectors item as most companines would (and should) not tolerate the losses it has had to absorb. By the time the X-Box is cash+, sony and Nintendo will be out with new systems that make X-Box look average, and then MS will have to build a newer better and again much more expensive one.

Score one for Tha Man

[EvilAlien]

I wonder if this is viewed as a rightful exercising of intellectual property rights or more fodder for anti-trust from the point of view of the Justice Department?

Mod chips, legal issues aside, are one of the "value adds" of the console market. Cracking down on this will drive Microsofts target audience away. Perhaps they've shot themselves in the foot with this.

Re:Score one for Tha Man

[evilpenguin]

I have a feeling this would depend on whether you are talking about the Clinton DoJ or the Bush the Younger DoJ. I think the present administration is generally less keen on the Sherman Act than the previous administration.

I think Microsoft's recent increase in agression is a sign that they think so too.

I leave it up to you whether that is a good thing or not.

Re:Score one for Tha Man

[Anonvmous Coward]

"Mod chips, legal issues aside, are one of the "value adds" of the console market... Perhaps they've shot themselves in the foot with this."

I'd agree with this comment except MS needs to sell 4 games to make up for the loss they take on each system. If people buy XBOXes but don't buy games for them (i.e. they buy them to install Linux on so they can tap tap tap at it all day), then MS doesn't want their business. They lose.

If MS believed that purchase of an XBOX because it has a mod chip would also mean sales of games, I'm sure they'd go for it. I can certainly understand their concern though, since their lineup of games isn't very strong right now.

In other words, there isn't much value in the games today, but they need to move the games in order for this whole venture to be worthwhile.

Re:Score one for Tha Man

[cybrthng]

Mod chips are not "Value adds".

Value adds are the features inherant to the system as designed. It just so happens that the xbox is a very "value added" system inherantly.

DVD, 5.1 Dolby Digital, Hard Disk, 4 Controllers, Ethernet, Fast Video, 64 megs of ram, HDTV support and many other XBOX features give it VALUE over other competing products and make it wanted and valued by many.

The devaluation is at the software and game level. Is Developer X going to spend 5 million making a game that can be pirated with ease because someone can goto lik-sang.com and get a modchip? NOooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Microsoft is protecting the value of the millions of units sold. Microsoft is protecting the rights of the licensees, distributors, developers and contributors of the xbox.

What is the value of hacking a system to use it for purposes of which it isn't intended or designed for and why can't microsoft legally fight to protect its intended and protected interests?

Even though i modded my dreamcast and could play pirated games, i didn't consider this a value add. For one, i couldn't read the japanese games and often times it wasn't worth the effort and for pirated games they were ripped, chunked, slow and missing features.

After my experimentation with "mod chips" it just wasn't worth it, and personally i see the value in the xbox of being a superb platform to begin with so i'm anxiously waiting to buy the excellent games that will come out.

As for liksang, i'm sure they were doing other things to get shutdown and i'm sure Sony, Sega and Nintendo have always wished they had to balls or $$$$ to do it themselves....

it was the "value add" of the modchips and ripped DC games that ended the life of that console. (and the ps2.. but sega cited the loss of software sales because of rampant piracy and loss of developers because of rampant piracy to be a big factor)

Re:Score one for Tha Man

[clonebarkins]

What is the value of hacking a system to use it for purposes of which it isn't intended or designed for...

To use it for purposes of which it isn't intended, obviously. Why ask the question when you have the answer in your question?

...and why can't microsoft legally fight to protect its intended and protected interests?

Because once they sell you the product, they have no legal rights to it anymore. BTW, what's a "protected" interest? That means nothing to me. I'm currently using an old Western Digital hard drive as a doorstop -- does that mean WD has the right to come and force me legally to not use their product in this unintended way?

Re:Score one for Tha Man

[!ramirez]

Just because you're a happy user, content to use your Xbox in whatever way Microsoft sees fit for you to do so, doesn't mean that everyone else on the planet shares your views. If I buy an Xbox, take it home, and decide to do something else with the equipment, that's my right, and my choice. As long as I am not unduly and tortiously interfering with the rights of others (people, not corporations), Microsoft has no recourse, period, end of story.

Selling Xbox mod chips is *exactly* like having a set of lockpicking equipment. Locks are meant to keep people out of areas they don't belong in; same goes for the 'security hardware' on the Xbox. You don't see the 5-0 arresting those guys that come and get your keys out of your locked car, do you?

Microsoft basically is using it's influence to crush out of existence what they don't like. Gee, who'd have thought they'd do that.

Re:Score one for Tha Man

[Amanset]

They did stop them from working. Why do you think the most recent Playstation mod chips are known as "stealth" chips? They had to hide their existence to get round the blocks that had been added to the game.

Re:Score one for Tha Man

[TRACK-YOUR-POSITION]

If you modded your dreamcast you totally wasted your time--the thing could play ISOs out of the box.

If you thing Sony and Nintendo didn't have the cash to shutdown Lik-Sang, well, there's a second reason for me to think you're an idiot. They didn't shutdown Lik-Sang because they realized people don't like soldering crap to their expensive consoles, and there really wasn't a big effect on piracy here. Microsoft just went after them because they're obstinate bastards who want to defeat the linux xbox hackers at all cost. Both the hackers and Microsoft are motivated by ideology--linux on Xbox is without value to hackers and without cost to Microsoft--hell, Sony even sells linux kits to encourage people to develop ps2 development skills.

Yeah, modchips sure ruined the life of PS2 and PS1 ... probably the most successful consoles ever.

Bottom line, the hardware belongs to however buys it, not whoever sells it. That's what "buying stuff" means.

Re:Score one for Tha Man

[Hrothgar The Great]

I love your "I don't use it so it should be illegal" attitude. Especially this:

For one, i couldn't read the japanese games and often times it wasn't worth the effort

Well, guess what, I can't read Japanese either, but I have enjoyed many games from that country on my modded PS2 such as Sexy Parodius, Twinbee Deluxe Pack, Salamander Deluxe Pack, Gradius Gaiden. I also just happened to purchase Ikaruga for my Dreamcast. These are all shooters - and there is no language barrier for pure twitch action like that.

Konami's games have always been popular here, but we didn't get any of those. So I adapted my system so that it would do what I wanted it to do. I see no harm in that, and there is not a thing about it that breaks any law aside from (possibly) the DMCA additions to US Copyright Law.

You know why people have to import? Because the console manufacturers maintain a tight reign on what is published on their console. They are able to do so because it is nigh impossible to create working distributable software without their permission, and even if you could, you could possibly be in violation of patents or sued under the DMCA (for bypassing methods of protection).

What it boils down to is that certain companies are not allowed to translate their games onto U.S. systems, even if they are willing to spend the money, because the hardware manufacturer is afraid that that title will make their system look bad. That's bullshit. Take a look at the PS2 as a great example - modchips appeared within a small number of months of the console's release allowing pirate games to be played, but NO ONE made a chip allowing imports until this year! It was a much more difficult process... Now why is that?

I want to play the games I want to play. If I am not able to do so, I will pass the console by, plain and simple.

Re:Score one for Tha Man

[Wildcat J]

Yes, I recall that the Bouncer (gag... what a waste of $50...) on PS2 did use DTS in-game. Though, it might have been only in cutscenes, which were not not all pre-rendered.

Also, the Gamecube "supports" surround sound in several games, like Super Mario Sunshine, although it hasn't worked for me (I haven't really messed with it).

-J

Re:Score one for Tha Man

[Anonvmous Coward]

"But why should it be the business of the public/government to ensure that Microsoft's, or Sony's or Nintendo's business model works out? All of what you're saying is true but so fucking what? Lots of ventures aren't worthwhile. Try something else next time."

What are you asking me for? That's not my decision to make. That is the way it is today and I cannot change that. I'm not a big fan of copy 'protection'.

" I can very easily imagine a console created by the industry through COOPERATION, a machine that all the game developers would support"

It's called a PC, and it's not a very successful model. Successful games on the PC are measured in hundreds of thousands. Successful games on game consoles are measured in millions.

"You may not have imagination enough to imagine things being any different, but that doesn't mean they can't or wouldn't."

Why are you taking pokes at me? Is it that hard to have a civilized debate? Do you really feel like you need to discredit me to 'win'?

Re:Score one for Tha Man

[ivan256]

The devaluation is at the software and game level. Is Developer X going to spend 5 million making a game that can be pirated with ease because someone can goto lik-sang.com and get a modchip? NOooooooooooooooooooooooooo

That sounds good in theory, but my experience with people who mod their current generation consoles is that they want to do things not normally allowed, such as play import games/DVDs, and run custom software that was written by random people on the internet. People just aren't pirating games for these new DVD based consoles like they used to for PSX, because it's just not practical, mod chip or no.

If you think that the availability of mod chips is what is causing Xbox development to stagnate, you're seriously misguided. There are mod chips out there for the PS2 also, and the titles keep pouring out for the PS2. I think that the only reason somebody hasn't come out with a mod for the Gamecube yet is because Nintendo made it trivial to make the gamecube play import titles, so there's no incentive to make a mod chip.

Re:Score one for Tha Man

[geekoid]

actually it is a value add. Console users have become acustomed to modding the units. It is a very small percentage of the users, but a very vocal small percentage. They have pissed off the kinds of users that will not take every opportunity to bad mouth them, and write negative articles.
remember, value add applies to the consumer NOT the manufacturer.

What is the value of hacking a system to use it for purposes of which it isn't intended or designed for and why can't microsoft legally fight to protect its intended and protected interests?

it is a piece of hardware, like a car. If I want to drop a chevy engine into my ford, the car companies have no business making me stop from doinfg it, or making a mechanic not sell that service to there customers.
If I wan't to buy an Xbox and use it as a door stop, that is my business not theres.

The devaluation is at the software and game level. Is Developer X going to spend 5 million making a game that can be pirated with ease because someone can goto lik-sang.com and get a modchip? NOooooooooooooooooooooooooo
YESSSssssssss.
Games can now be easily copied, yet there is still a market. By your logic MS should never had started making software because it is easy to copy.

"Sony, Sega and Nintendo have always wished they had to balls or $$$$ to do it themselves....
"

Ys, those poor cash strapped companies.

Re:Score one for Tha Man

[mrm677]

Cracking down on this will drive Microsofts target audience away. Perhaps they've shot themselves in the foot with this.

I bet that 90%, or more, of the people of own an Xbox don't even know what a "mod chip" is.

Re:Score one for Tha Man

[ChaosDiscord]

Is Developer X going to spend 5 million making a game that can be pirated with ease because someone can goto lik-sang.com and get a modchip?

Yeah, that would be just like Developer X spending 5 million to develop a PC game that can be pirated with ease because someone can download a crack online. Or a music publishing company spending 5 million to contract a music star to record CDs that can the pirated with ease because some can easily download it online. Or a movie company spending 50 million to make a movie that can be pirated with ease because someone can easily purchase illegal DVD copies throughout the world.

Oh, wait. All of these things happen. Repeatedly. And most of them are far easier and cheaper than purchasing a mod chip online and soldering it into your case.

Dispite the ease of copyright infringement, these industries survive. It's not necessary to completely destroy copyright infringement, it's probably not even possible. (We work even harder at eliminating murder and illegal drugs, and yet both continue to happen.) Only fools think it's possible to perfectly protect content shipped to millions of people. Instead, work to minimize copyright infringment, prosecute the worst offenders of copyright infringment (people selling copied DVDs), and learn to live with the rest. When you have the effort of finding, purchasing, and installing a mod chip as a prerequisite, you're going to keep illegal copies to a bare minimum. The people willing to spend the effort to make the copies generally wouldn't have purchased a copy in the first place. Actual sales lost: minimal.

(Please don't take this as a defense of making illegal copies. I'm against copyright infringment. I'm for purchasing video games. I'm arguing that the problem isn't so bad that publishers should run around screaming that the sky is falling.)

What is the value of hacking a system to use it for purposes of which it isn't intended or designed for...?

What is the value in installing various performance enhancing modifications on my car that it wasn't intended or designed for? The value of overclocking my processor to a speed it wasn't intended or designed for? Answer: it's none of the fscking manufacturer's concern. How I chose to treat the physical things I purchase is my business, not the manufacturers. I obviously find value in the modification, so clearly there is value for me. That's all that matters.

Even though i modded my dreamcast and could play pirated games, i didn't consider this a value add. For one, i couldn't read the japanese games and often times it wasn't worth the effort and for pirated games they were ripped, chunked, slow and missing features.

So it's of no value to you. That's fine. But a modchip in my PlayStation 2 is of value to me. I want access to the editions of Dance Dance Revolution released in Asia, the U.S. releases are inferior. Sure, I can't read the text, but I don't need to (I do just fine at the Korean DDR arcade machine next door). I'm not getting illegally copied games since I want to support the publisher, I'm interested in importing legally produced copies. So I don't need to worry about low quality illegal copies. I'd rather not have a second PS2 occupying space. This adds value for me. A similar set of reasons might create value for someone with an X-Box.

it was the "value add" of the modchips and ripped DC games that ended the life of that console. (and the ps2.. but sega cited the loss of software sales because of rampant piracy and loss of developers because of rampant piracy to be a big factor)

Well, gosh, if Sega said if was piracy, that must be the problem. The fact that they were competing with two very powerful, established competitors (Nintendo and Sony) certainly doesn't have anything to do with it. My many friends who all chose to wait for the PS2 instead of getting a Dreamcast clearly don't represent the typical population. There is certainly no chance that Sega misrepresented the reason they left the market to pin the blame on someone other than themselves. (I'm having problems finding articles were they actually blamed piracy... could you point me to a few?)

I'm a Dreamcast owner. I love the machine and I mourn its passing.uy the argument that illegal copying killed the Dreamcast. The millions of people who said, "well, it looks nice, but I'm waiting for the PS2" killed the Dreamcast. I encouraged all of my friends to buy Dreamcasts. None did. Yet

Re:Score one for Tha Man

[Anonvmous Coward]

"No, it's not called a PC. What I had in mind was a closed platform, one that can't be upgraded, and one that only has one hardware configuration."

You mean like the ill-fated Indrema, or the 3DO? Heh.

"You're right, I apologize, sincerely. I get a little worked up sometimes. Especially when you say stuff (if I remember correctly) like "oh another stupid slashdot post, god these people don't even understand basic economics!"

I stand by that comment. This thread has generated 36 replies so far, most of them are anti-MS bigotry. If I am wrong about you, then I apologize. If this topic were about Sony or Nintendo instead of MS, I wouldn't have all these stupid responses flooding my inbox.

Re:Score one for Tha Man

[Anonvmous Coward]

Maybe I'm just tired, but I totally didn't understand that comment.

Re:Score one for Tha Man

[Jason Earl]

Where else are you going to get a 800 MHz PC for $200???

WalMart. Where else?

Re:Score one for Tha Man

[Malcontent]

"What, because it's Republican? "

Why yes.

"Whose FTC let the megamergers of the 90's go through in the first place?"

Who did MS merge with?

"Whose DoJ botched the handling of Microsoft to begin with?"

At least they were going after them. As soon as Ashcroft took office he fell to his knees and started suckling on Bill Gates' member.

"Smart politicians don't stand in the way of letting businesses succeed."

Even if means harm to consumers or breaks the law?

"Lucky ones guess correctly when to step in and stop them."

The Clinton administration tried MS twice. First time MS simply ignored the rulings against them the second time is still in going on.

"Bill Clinton is a very smart politician. He's not a terribly lucky one."

Very true. Bush is getting away with things ten times as worse thanks to some terrorists. Sept 11 was the best thing that could even happen to the current administration.

Re:Score one for Tha Man

[Jason Earl]

Uh... XBoxes are made in plants in Mexico and China. So both companies support giving paying jobs to people in less countries with depressed economies.

I take it you have never actually lived in the third world. Jobs at these types of factories are highly sought after. You see, bad as these jobs might be, the alternative is worse. You can call it slave labor if you want, but it's not. People that work in these factories are almost certainly very thankful to be employed. Low wages, long hours, and poor working conditions are simply what happens when the local job market is so depressed that workers don't have any bargaining power.

If you really want to fix the problem the solution is to create more jobs in these areas. Unfortunately, the corruption of the local political machine usually makes that easier said than done.

Re:Score one for Tha Man

[gnovos]

I'd agree with this comment except MS needs to sell 4 games to make up for the loss they take on each system. If people buy XBOXes but don't buy games for them (i.e. they buy them to install Linux on so they can tap tap tap at it all day), then MS doesn't want their business. They lose.

That's the fault of microsoft, though. If I sell a toothpick holder becuase I expect people to buy my gold plated toothpicks to put in it, I don't get to complain when they use it to hold thier paper clips.

Re:Score one for Tha Man

[Anonvmous Coward]

"That's the fault of microsoft, though. If I sell a toothpick holder becuase I expect people to buy my gold plated toothpicks to put in it, I don't get to complain when they use it to hold thier paper clips."

Error 44: Argument rejected, $Apples != $Oranges.

Re:Score one for Tha Man

[mgblst]

Perhaps the solution for Microsoft is to sell these modchips themselves. They are pretty expensive from what i hear, and microsoft just needs to sell them for enough so that they recuperate losses incurred on the initial sale.

Of course, this may legitimise the mod-chips!

Re:Score one for Tha Man

[mpe]

Loss leaders simply invite later protectionism. Companies that use them will end up using intellectual property claims or lobby for more direct industry tariff/duty approaches (this last has yet to happen realy in the console industry). While loss leaders are legal, they end up pinching away separate and should-be-legitimate business activities because the parent company will scream bloody murder that they are being robbed.

Actually the problem isn't so much loss leaders as having a substantial portion of your business dependent on a loss leader product. When something like a supermarket uses loss leaders they don't need to kick up all this fuss. Because they are discounting a tiny proportion of their product lines. (If they discount a wide range of their products you can be sure they are still making a profit on those products.) The only thing they might have to do is say "no more than X per customer, per visit".
Problem of applying the idea of a loss leader to games consoles or Internet appliancies is that these arn't a small portion of the product line, they are a large portion, sometimes even the vast majority of the product line...

Re:Score one for Tha Man

[mpe]

If I want to drop a chevy engine into my ford, the car companies have no business making me stop from doinfg it, or making a mechanic not sell that service to there customers.

But Ford would probably love to be able to stop you. Currently the only time the government is likely to get involved is if you want to drive your modified car on the public roads. In which case all they care about is if it's "street legal" not that it's to the original manufacturer's spec.

Re:Score one for Tha Man

[Anonvmous Coward]

"I'd have to say his argument is valid, and trying to reject it cutely doesn't absolve you of the need to prove it. Either back your statement up or retract it."

His argument is invalid because it's 'apples to oranges'. (as stated in my previous post)

Frankly, I don't intend to waste my time arguing with somebody who's going to oversimplify the situation and use obtuse metaphors to prove me wrong. He's just going to disregard any comment I make back because "MS is always wrong".

I will not retract my statement. It should be rather obvious what the difference between selling razor blades and selling video games is. I'll give you a hint: copyright. The problem is that if I go deeper into it, it'll turn into a debate about how the law is wrong and blah blah blah. Then, people will automatically assume that I support the law being wrong (like the DMCA, for example), even though I haven't stated what I personally think.

No, I will not waste my time. His argument is not within the ballpark of relevance, I'm not convinced that he'd have an open enough mind to listen to what I have to say (Note: Listen != Agree), and if I open that door I'm just going to get my ass jumped again.

Re:Score one for Tha Man

[Anonvmous Coward]

Heh see, I was right. You're arguing with me over a point I hadn't made.

Remember the Xbox upgrade article.

[N3WBI3]

When I said that its about them telling me what to do with my property??

Many people yelled that it was just an upgrande and M$ was not telling me what to do with **MY** hardware. Well bite me, I knew M$ would prove me right.

I dont own an X-box, I dont own a mod chip, but M$ continues with the attitude that you will use this the way we want you to use this, you will not dieveate at all from our buisness plan or we will label you a pirate and sue your sorry butt..

Re:Remember the Xbox upgrade article.

[N3WBI3]

I agree with you 100% stealing is bad and I dont do it. you seem to think I endorse stealing, I think If I want to mod something I have bought and paid for, for a non buinsess purpose (to back up games, or to run an OS) which is not getting aroung spending money I would otherwise have to spend its **MY** property.

The personal property cry is not 'childish' If I use my property in a legal way, to do legal things on Ihave every right. There are few rights more fundimental than property.

Re:Remember the Xbox upgrade article.

[CoolVibe]

Not only tell Microsoft that. Sony hates modders too. Nintendo hates modders as well.

Instead of just blaming Microsoft (the easy way), why not blame the other console corps as well? Blaming MS might be easy, but in console-country they aren't the only ones trying to keep hackers away from their so-called IP.

*note: I hate Microsoft like the next guy. I have a MS free zone at home.

PS: the M$ thing is old, give it a rest. I'm serious. Stop that. You will be taken more seriously if you refer to things by their real names/abbreviations. The Co$ is of course the exception of the rule. :)

Re:Remember the Xbox upgrade article.

[N3WBI3]

I dont see sony and Nintendo trying to shut down companies in other countries for selling mod chips to their system.

Re:I don't care what you guys say

[N3WBI3]

I hate to ell you this AC its none of your damn buisness if I want to run Linux or back up my games (and YES I BACK UP EVERYTHING I OWN!).

Re:As a general rule

[arbitrary nickname]

Aren't most XBox mod chips basically BIOS replacements? Probably containing significant portions of Microsoft's original XBox BIOS?...

So it'd be a simple case of copyright infringement.

Everything else Lik-Sang sold, including GBA 'backup devices', PSX mods, and perfectly legit consoles, games, and accessories, were probably perfectly legal in most countries. Maybe they made a genuine mistake by stocking the XBox mods - not knowing they may have contained Microsoft's code?

Re:As a general rule

[Squareball]

This is insane! I mean, what if Ford started shutting down shops that trick out cars? Would the people stand for that? My rule, if I buy it, it's MINE! I don't give a darn WHAT the EULA says. EULA isn't exactly a strong legal document.

Legality....

[Tsali]

haiku

add architecture
without the borg's consent?
enlist the lawyers.

\haiku

Re:Legality....

[SirSlud]

haiku2

zoning makes me mad
how can i play cool imports
do i have to move?

\haiku2

Follow the money

[Iguanaphobic]

Hmmm... Sony allows mod chips, stock goes up. Microsoft doesn't allow modchips, stock goes down. Go get 'em Microsoft!!

Related Quotes
Quotes delayed 20+ minutes

MICROSOFT CORP MSFT 44.94 -0.67
SONY CORP ADR SNE 40.84 0.18

Re:Follow the money

[Frank of Earth]

I seriously doubt that MS shutting down a mod chip store effects their stock in any form.

And screw sony too. Anyone that own's one of their DVD players knows about the infamous C:13 error that you get after about a year of usage. Thousands of consumers have this problem and Sony's only answer is to fix it for a mere 179 bucks.

If you're having the problem, you can try to fix it here

I really hope this is overturned.

[Inoshiro]

It's one thing to restrict the sales of bullets and guns to infants, but mod chips aren't exactly something which is a danger to society. What are they used for? Modifications to behaviour of a device.

Unless there was a market force demanding it, they wouldn't sell well enough that people would keep buying them. See also region free DVD players. They're just as popular now as ever, because people want the freedom in their products.

And that doesn't take into account the fact that once I buy something, it's mine. I own it, I do with it as I please. If I want to rip the top off my Xbox, shit in it, and then grow a plant out of that moist, fertile soil -- that's my business. Microsoft has as much business stopping the sales of mod chips as they do teaching mothers how to breastfeed.

How complicated are mod-chips?

[phorm]

Perhaps the best fight-back method would be to make the instructions for creating mod-chips more publicly available. In this case, every little shop would eventually proliferate them, and it would become too difficult to chase everyone down.

Of course, in a business sense this is a really bad idea, as it just creates competition. But in a hardware-modders right-to-change-my-property, fight the machine sense it would be nice.

Re:How complicated are mod-chips?

[RatBastard]

The real issue is that most (if not all) XBox mod chips are using code/software leaked from a XBox devkit. This makes these chips (the ones based on this source) illegal. Making the chips isn't all that hard. The hard part is the software in the chips. Without a legal source for software, everybody in the XBox mod chip business is going to get nailed by MS.

Re:As a general rule

[N3WBI3]

Ahh so kill em all and let God sort them out? Whats that you want to back up your games, well screw you because little Billy down the street is a theif so you probably are to...

Well, there's always...

[-=OmegaMan=-]

Easybuy.

For now, at least.

Note: I have no affiliation with LikSang, or EasyBuy - they're just pretty similar. LikSang had a larger variety of video-game oriented products, but EasyBuy has most of the more popular modchips as well.

This is not a shot at the end user

[Winterblink]

I'm already reading stuff on here from users about how MS is now telling them what to do with the property they bought. This is NOT what is happening! You as a user can open up your XBox and hack the hardware as much as you want, hack it so it bypasses whatever security's in there, they won't care. However, take that hack and turn it into a business for yourself by manufacturing hardware and selling it IS what they will move against. In my opinion, they have every right to do that, and it has nothing to do with a monopoly on anything. Just my opinion! Comments?

Re:This is not a shot at the end user

[SirSlud]

Yeah .. is it illegal to start a spark plug company and sell spark plugs for cars you don't manufacture yourself?

What right does MS have in preventing people from selling after-market mods .. ? Where did this right come from? When? Why?

Re:This is not a shot at the end user

[Peyna]

Installing the alternative spark plug doesn't cheat the original manufacturer out of any profit.

Re:This is not a shot at the end user

[Winterblink]

I can't think of a more apples and oranges comparison than that. Or wait, maybe not. What if those spark plugs had some kind of magical ability to let you get gasoline for free? Or if the spark plugs in your car allowed you to blow out my tires when driving down the road? Someone might get concerned about those spark plugs, oh yes.

In the same way, Microsoft is trying to stop piracy of games and hacking that could potentially spill over into its XBox Live service. They want to make that as secure as possible to prevent abuse of the system and other users, and stomping on commercialized hacking ventures is probably their way of sending out a message. Again, this does not stop you from opening up your xbox and replacing its OS with Linux, or sticking a fishtank in it. You bought it, its yours.

Re:This is not a shot at the end user

[dschuetz]

However, take that hack and turn it into a business for yourself by manufacturing hardware and selling it IS what they will move against. In my opinion, they have every right to do that, and it has nothing to do with a monopoly on anything.

I'm curious why you think MS has a right to stop a legitimate business from trying to turn a profit.

Mod chips are, protests to the contrary, legal. The only ground MS might have to contest them on would be through the DMCA, as a chip could be used to run a pirated copy of a game. However, the DMCA also makes allowances for circumvention with "significant non-infringing uses", which a mod chip certainly has (seeing as how many people here want to run Linux on it). Of course, the law only supports consumers as far as they're willing to pay their lawyers.

MS didn't license the Xbox to anyone, as anyone who owns one will tell you. People bought it outright, they can do whatever they want to it. People can sell hardware, software, instructions, whatever they want to help people modify their box.

Some people have taken the opinion that MS is only attacking those things which might threaten their profitability (such as giving people the ability to write/distribute their own, unsigned games). Okay, then why don't they go after aftermarket controller manufacturers, since they obviously compete with MS controllers?

This whole thing really irks me, and I'm not sure what bothers me more -- them getting away with it, or people believeing that MS has some kind of right to protect their flawed business model. Okay, maybe MS isn't making much money on hardware (as we all seem to believe). And we then assume they make that money back in development fees. So? I don't recall signing a piece of paper, when I bought my Xbox, that said I'd support Microsoft's business plan. Their plan is their own business. Lik Sang's business plan is, similarly, their business, and no one else's. They saw a need, and filled it. Sure, it's possible that mod chips might cut into a small fraction of game sales. Again, that's not my problem.

If chipping cuts into a significant fraction of sales, and people stop making games, and the platform dies, then, well, that is my problem, and I'll be disappointed. O h, well, too bad, maybe next time. I'll still have gotten my $300 worth of fun out of the box. But, again, that's how the market works.

This is capitalism at its best.

I find it ironic that it's China that has the strongest support of capitalism, and the US that has the strongest implicit government support of illegal monopolies.

Re:This is not a shot at the end user

[kenthorvath]

Why, is it illegal to redial the odometer on a car you own? If not, then why would it be illegal to do it for somebody else who consents?

Re:This is not a shot at the end user

[SirSlud]

And the modchip doesn't cheat MS out of profit. Just like the VCR doesn't cheat the movie biz out of profit, even tho I have 20 copied movies at home (probably like you or many of your neighbours.) Well, okay, it does but its been tolerated for the last 20 odd years .. grandparents who wouldn't go through the express lane at the grocery story with more than 8 items routinely use VCR's illegally.

The VCR gets used illegaly several times a day by people on your street. So will the modchip. No need to whip out the laywers and put your customers in diapers. We've been through this before .. I feel bad for people who honestly think MS has some sort of legal right to prevent the sale of tools which may or may not be used to conduct illegal activity by the fucking people giving MS money for the console in the first place.

Don't trust your consumers? Move into another goddamned market space, but don't treat your customers like babies hanging out in the smoking pit behind the school. Time will sort this all out, but I garauntee you that MS's tactics are unsustainable in a market where humans (consumers, for the sales/marketers) _always_ get the last say.

Re:This is not a shot at the end user

[Dannon]

Actually, I believe it is, depending on where you live, at least if you intend to sell that car. The reason? By selling a car with a higher mileage than is shown on the odometer, you are committing fraud. The mileage on a car is crucial to having a true estimate of that car's value.

And, if it's not illegal, at least it's somewhat monitored. I remember last time I went to buy a car, and I looked up the CarFax report, it had a section where a 'red flag' would be tossed up if, at any time, there were any evidence that someone had tampered with the odometer and sold it at a higher price than it was worth.

Re:This is not a shot at the end user

[Winterblink]

Good points throughout. One thing I'd like to qualify further is, I'm not saying that they have every right under law x section y subsection z to shut down Lik Sang. I'm saying that it's entirely within their right as a company to make whatever moves they want, within the established laws, to stonewall mod chip manufacturers -- be that as an ad campaign against it, or buying out the whole company and dissolving it. And they're not being anticompetetive in doing so; Microsoft doesn't make mod chips, and Lik Sang's business doesn't endorse other consoles in favor if the XBox.

Re:This is not a shot at the end user

[SirSlud]

Then explain why radar detectors can be sold. They are only used to avoid cops so that people can speed in peace. Any 'legit' use is minimal .. I mostly see them on the 'decks of imports that are probably going above the speedlimit for 80% of their street life.

Do we shut down people who sell performance parts (because the vast majority of these parts end up in street imports driven by testosterone-driven 22 year olds who revel in breaking the speed limit) ... NO WE DONT. We punish the people who use these parts illegally.

Care you try again?

Re:This is not a shot at the end user

[dschuetz]

One thing I'd like to qualify further is, I'm not saying that they have every right under law x section y subsection z to shut down Lik Sang. I'm saying that it's entirely within their right as a company to make whatever moves they want, within the established laws, to stonewall mod chip manufacturers -- be that as an ad campaign against it, or buying out the whole company and dissolving it.

I'll agree with all that, certainly. It seems, though, that they may have taken a legal approach here (or used strongarm tactics, like muscling Lik Sang's ISP, maybe) to shut it down. The article was, unfortunately, unclear on how exactly MS "shut" them down.

I always chuckle when people complain (like earlier this week) that a manufacturer has changed their hardware to "thwart" mod chip makers. That's a legitimate, and easy way, to deal with the problem. Driving people out of business isn't.

I really like the "buy them out and close the shop" approach -- how do I get in on that scam?

Re:This is not a shot at the end user

[Winterblink]

Driving people out of business isn't. I really like the "buy them out and close the shop" approach -- how do I get in on that scam?

Both of these things probably happen a lot more than you or I are aware of. :)

Re:This is not a shot at the end user

[Amanset]

Even if they are cheating MS out of profit (somethigng that I disagree with and, as someone else has pointed out, does MS have a God-given right to profit?), what law has Lik-Sang broken?

There are a lot of people here saying that they think Lik-Sang have done something wrong and thus MS are in the right. The thing is no-one can me a reason why, using the law instead of moral reasoning, as to why Lik-Sang are wrong.

Re:This is not a shot at the end user

[Frank of Earth]

Laf! Short simple and to the point.
*cheer*

Re:This is not a shot at the end user

[liquidsin]

What if the modchip lets me watch DVD's not encoded for my region? What if I want to use it to play legal backups of my own games? What if I want to use it so I can install linux on my xbox? Fuck, why not outlaw soldering irons. "You're more than welcome to do what you want with *your* hardware, but we can't allow people to sell things that may or may not be used to copy our software." The whole line of reasoning is bullshit.

Re:This is not a shot at the end user

[Frank of Earth]

Couldn't have said it better myself. Thanks ;-) Of course, you'll get modded down because god forbid anyone tries to say anything positive about MS on /.

Re:This is not a shot at the end user

[SirSlud]

I see what you're saying, don't get me wrong. My point is mod chips shouldn't be illegal.

But you know what? If zoning didn't exist, I'd have no problem with making mod chips illegal. Absolutely none. If their sole purpose was to play copied games, fine. Make them illegal and deal with the bigger issue of copyright.

But until anyone can prove to me that it wasn't against the will of people and unethical to zone games geographically, keeping people from buying import games that wouldn't be released here, I have 0 sympathy.

Zoning exists so they can get better returns on their investment, not because consumers want it. So I have no sympathy that they now have to fight an unpopular battle because some people actually want to do something that they don't see as being unethical (playing purchased zoned games). MS left the door wide open for an excuse to develop piracy-enabling devices .. all because of the greedy motives behind zoning.

Technology is power, dude. The market used to be able to correct the power of producers, but technology is now sufficiently complex enough to allow producers to weild power over the market through a lack of education, FUD, lobbying, and technolgical measures. Companies that use technological means to maximize margins against the will of people do not deserve to not be protected from the consequences of those actions.

Re:This is not a shot at the end user

[SirSlud]

Whats REALLY ironic is that your popup-killer sig is exactly the same as piracy. In order for sites to remain profitable, you have to view the ad. You're using technological means to cheat the provider out of revenue for the infromation they provide you. Thats piracy .. you're saying 'too bad for serving me the content in a format which I can cheat. and because I can cheat it, I will'. How will the writers/artists get paid for providing you with the content you come across on the web?

Now _that_ is ironic, and I'm afraid that the credibility you build in this thread (I was just beginning to agree with you) is all gone. Hypocrite. :)

Re:This is not a shot at the end user

[SirSlud]

Dont you find it a little ironic that hes got a fucking POPUP KILLER in his sig? Thats a goddamned mod chip for websites. (Since it cheats the website out of revenue that they _expect_ when people view their site, just like a mod chip cheats MS out of revenue that they _expect_ when people use content on their platform.)

Re:This is not a shot at the end user

[ivan256]

In many states it's only illegal to pass a modified odometer reading off as the actual value. That's fraud. It's not illegal to change the readout, or to replace the odometer. If you look on the bill of sale from for cars in most states, you'll see a check box and a blank where you can disclose that the odometer was modified and what the actual mileage is.

Re:This is not a shot at the end user

[sedawkgrep]

Isn't a screwdriver used to open something that was secured?

In a way, a screwdriver is just as much a security circumvention device.

However - it is not a very good analogy to the modchip. It is nigh impossible to make comparisons because we're talking about [hardware and] software - they're just fundamentally different than tangible devices and tools.

Given that though, I still think that the modchip itself should be 100% legal because it is simply a tool. A tool that contains no illegal information itself. A tool that only affects the end-user, and doesn't (even potentially) cause damage to MS outside of that person's Xbox. (i.e. it doesn't affect anyone else's xbox or software)

sedawkgrep

Re:This is not a shot at the end user

[Osty]

Whats REALLY ironic is that your popup-killer sig is exactly the same as piracy. In order for sites to remain profitable, you have to view the ad. You're using technological means to cheat the provider out of revenue for the infromation they provide you. Thats piracy .. you're saying 'too bad for serving me the content in a format which I can cheat. and because I can cheat it, I will'. How will the writers/artists get paid for providing you with the content you come across on the web?

Ah, no, young grasshopper. Try using the software before critcizing it, next time. My software, just like Mozilla's popup-blocker, only blocks popups. It doesn't block banner ads, interstitials, flash ads, and all the other forms of online advertising. It blocks pop-ups, because I find them annoying. However, unlike Mozilla, you're given a choice on whether or not you want to allow popups from a site, or to a particular site (ie, filter on source or destination of a pop-up). If you have a site that uses pop-ups, and you particularly like the site and want to support them, great -- allow pop-ups from that site. If you have a certain pop-up you don't like, like X10's crap, then kill only that popup. In either case, the popup ad still has to load (just long enough to get the destination URL), so any advertiser paying by views rather than clicks will count the ad as "seen".

In other words, no hypocrisy here at all. My software only blocks one form of online advertising, and allows you to let that through for specific sites, if you want.

Re:This is not a shot at the end user

[Winterblink]

Actually I'm not "arguing", I like to think I'm carrying on a discussion. And I won't be baited into going for the guns and lockpicks example. :P

And I reiterate: no, it doesn't. You can open it up and turn the xbox into anything you want, they're just making it more difficult for someone else to do the work for you.

Re:This is not a shot at the end user

[Winterblink]

Let me go no record as saying I totally agree with you. :) It SHOULD be legal, and in fact it kinda sorta is (hence the grey market status). It IS only a tool, and it IS your hardware. All I'm getting at is, people shouldn't be flogging Microsoft for doing what they think is in their best interests. And it may not cause damage outside your xbos now, but what happens when xbox live is turned on, and mod chippers are in there abusing the service? Using it to hack other peoples' xboxes, cheat in games, whatever? Hypothetical I know, but what if?

Re:This is not a shot at the end user

[sean23007]

Don't companies who manufacture controllers for the system need Microsoft's permission to do so? I would guess that they asked MS for the technical specifications of the controller's interface (they wouldn't want their controller to anything worse than the original) and are paying a nominal sum to sell products. I doubt that these companies had to reverse engineer the Xbox controller in order to sell their product, but I welcome, nay, I invite anyone to prove me wrong.

Re:This is not a shot at the end user

[SirSlud]

>My software only blocks one form of online advertising, and allows you to let that through for specific sites, if you want.

In other words, the content provider trusts you to use the technology responsibly instead of trying to legislatively put popup killer companies out of business because *some* of their users use them to totally sqaush all advertising? This is hilarious. How can you possibly support MS for going after mod chip makers if those mod chip makers use them responsibly, and then defend your use of a tool that will strip content providers of revenue (popups have to fully load, sometimes even sit for a few seconds, before a website gets paid for it in the majority of ad networks and ad serving systems .. I should know, I write ad servers for a living) ...

See? I don't have a problem with you using a popup killer. But you're stripping revenue from sites that deserve it, based on what *you* feel they deserve for what they're providing you.

Then, you go and defend MS for going after companies that make technology that does the *exact* same thing .. lets people access some content the producer would deny them from unless they paid full price for it or bought it in the correct region/market. You're saying: "MS has the right to ensure that nobody consumes their content unless its in the *exact* way they provide it, in the *exact* market they provide it", but use software that does *exactly* the same thing.

Haha. I'm in the ad business, and I have no qualms with your software. What I want to know is why its different that MS has the apparent right to enforce their qualms with mod chips.

Incidentally, popups pay out anywhere from 4 to 10 times what banner ads do. Stripping out the popup ads is a large hit on a websites revenue, because they count on popups WAY more than banners for revenue. But I guess youre smart, responsible, and ethical enough to know all these thigns already right? Why are we wasting time discussing this when there are people watching import games in markets they don't live in!! Lets catch the real criminals!

Re:This is not a shot at the end user

[SirSlud]

The only thing I'd like is the right to the freedom required to break the law when I want.

If the cops want to arrest me for breaking the law, I'm fully prepared to pay for my actions. 100%. Come and arrest me. Just don't limit my freedom to make the choice of whether to be law abiding or not.

Re:This is not a shot at the end user

[Cryptnotic]

The recording provision of VCR's is used almost exclusively for piracy. Does this mean they should be illegal? The courts have decided that if they have "substantial non-infringing uses", then they are not illegal. The ability to run your own programs on the hardware you bought and paid for seems to me like a substantial non-infringing use.

Re:This is not a shot at the end user

[SirSlud]

>You say I can't change the channel on my TV when an ad comes on? Is that illegal?

Actually, according to the MSes of the TV world, yes. And your agument that MS should be able to stop people from selling technology that allows you to circumvent their revenue stream means television should have the right to stop people from selling technologies which allow people to circumvent commercials. (Cause then how do the people making the shows get paid?)

Your answer, which I believe is *right*, is that its up to the producer to select a business model that people will not seek to circumvent. The market works because people pay what they're willing to pay, not because they've a gun to their head saying *you have to pay for this*. Your friends are jerks. I yell at my friends who do anything like that, even down to skipping turnstyles and the like. You should to.

But alas, we can all shuck our social ethics, because thank god, companies are finally starting to ethically police us themselves!

Look, this isn't black and white, but thats the very reason why you should be erring on the side of assuming people can use that technology ethically, for the same reason you asume as much about your blocking software. If banner ads annoyed you, would you block those to? How do you know other users of that software are as ethical as you? The tempation would be there to block *all* ad popups, and even grab tools to block banners, just as the tempation is there to copy games.

This is why Nintendo is smart. They choose media that will have low piracy rates, take the moderate hit on not having the 'latest and greatest', and focus on doing what they do best. Pleasing gamers. MS would rather use technologies that dangle the carrot in front of your friends' nose, and then go after the folks who provide the obvious solution to the obvious and predictable demand for piracy. It is this same reason why I'm not opposed to ad blocking. We can police ourselves. If we can't, you as a producer, are in the wrong business.

Not that it matters. That 'tempation', as you put it, will always exist. Popup killers, channel changers, dual cassette decks, remote controls will always exist. Trying to ban the tool never works; you can only alter people's behaviour through technology, not deny it via denying people technology after its been adopted. Its a pretty core fundamental of the relation between technology and social values and behaviour.

Re:This is not a shot at the end user

[Hrothgar The Great]

No, I don't really think you're allowed to build your own guns either, if the type of gun you're building has been outlawed in your area.

Guns are a bad comparison because outlawing guns might protect people from being hurt. A lot of very reasonable people are perfectly willing to give up some of their personal right to bear arms if it might mean that fewer people will die.

Mod chips do not harm any person. They might harm the bottom line of a corporation, and as I don't work for a console manufacturer, it's not really my responsibility to help ensure their future profitability. I can't think of a good analogy, but if some company came along and could demonstrate that hammers cut into their profit margin, would you outlaw those as well?

Incidentally, what is the difference between buying a mod chip and building your own? What do you feel separates the two, morally or legally or whatever way you want to look at it? (Besides the anti-circumvention provisions of the DMCA, of course, which we are already aware of).

Re:This is not a shot at the end user

[liquidsin]

What will be funnier is when someone writes software to make xbox live think that their pc is an xbox and lets it on the network. Harder to restrict the flow of software than hardware, and a lot of damage could be done. Are there any functional xbox emulators?

Re:This is not a shot at the end user

[Hrothgar The Great]

I do not own a gun, but I'm not willing to give up my constitutional right to bear one as I please (because if I give that up, what's next? free speech?).

This is the only part of your post I really didn't understand. You were the one who drew a comparison between mod chips and guns - wouldn't you therefore be forced, by your own assertions, to argue that a gun should only be legal if you build it yourself, and that people should not be allowed to SELL guns?

The reason I disagree with the rest of your points is not because they're not good points, or not true, but because they are wildly speculative, and I do not believe that it is ok to create broad, important legal policy based on some ideas of the potential effect on developers' revenue streams. Even if there is a demonstrable effect that could be proven with numbers, I would STILL support the right of the mod chip manufacturers to do business. Frankly, I wouldn't feel at home in a capatalist system if I favored one type of enterprise over another to the demise of the loser.

Mod chip manufacturers have jobs too, you know. Outlawing them will put them out of work as well, if you want to look at it that way.

Re:This is not a shot at the end user

[HiThere]

I'd prefer moral reasoning to legal reasoning. The laws are "owned".

There has been one assertion made, which, if true, would support MicroSoft's position. It was asserted that the mod-chips were made using stolen (illegally copied) copyrighted code. True? False? I don't know. But that's been the only plausible justification offered. Nobody, however, either affirmed or denied that statement, and I'm not knowledgeable.

Re:This is not a shot at the end user

[Have Blue]

This is more like manufacturing radar jammers, and I believe that really is illegal.

Re:This is not a shot at the end user

[UncleFluffy]

Shutting down mod chips does NOT mean you're unable to do what you want with your hardware. You can design and build your own mod chip, put it in there and go to town, no big deal. Or turn it into a toaster if you like. :)

Can I contract my friend who knows more about electronics than I do to design and build the mod chip for me ?

Can a group of people contract someone more knowledgeable to design and build the mod chip for them ?

Can that someone more knowledgable offer this service to people ?

Can a company offer this service to people ?

I can't see as clear a black/white distinction as you apparently can.

I'm just curious...

[Cutriss]

Could NCSX be next? They don't sell modchips, but they do sell pre-modded systems for playing multi-region games. Far from hurting Microsoft, yes...but we know how nasty those lawyers get when they haven't had anything to do in a while...

Re:I'm just curious...

[Wolfier]

My guess is, they WANT to shut it down, but they cannot, because they know their case will not stand.

Console makers know very well that a modchip whose only function is to defeat region scams^H^H^Hhemes is completely legal.

So somebody PLEASE make such chips. Lots of them. There ARE demands - and I love to see MS grinding their teeth and not able to do anything!

Corporate Slogans

[j_kenpo]

Wow, since I cant get my mod chips off Lik Sang, next time Microsoft asks me "Where do I want to go today?", Ill be sure to say "Hong Kong, so I can buy my mod chip"...

In other news...

[Mr. Firewall]

... Micro$oft has just announced the availability of the Monopoly game for the Xbox.

Re:In other news...

[pommiekiwifruit]

You mean the game that some people think was copied from its original inventors and turned into private IP?

I'm sure a company like MS would never do that... all their products are startlingly original compared to the state of the art when they were first cloned^h^h^h^h^h^hinnovated.

Re:In other news...

[Azathoth_lca]

You mean this?

Re:In other news...

[jsse]

Chance #173:

You sell XBOx mod chips. Bastard. Go to jail immediately.

Re:How could anyone not expect this to happen?

[Servo]

You know.. they could always charge more for the system and not have to make it up in games

Its not my fault they sell the things at a loss. Why should I be forced to be their perfect consumer?

Re:Other Asian manufacturers need to be shut down.

[fialar]

Voting with $$$ doesn't really work anyway. Microsoft has so much money it doesn't matter, besides, they use packs of lawyers to whittle away at what ever consumer freedoms we still have left.

(Corporate lawyers have done a great job at destroying the United States' ability to revoke corporate charters since the end of the Civil War.)

You're kidding, right?

[Quarters]

Mod chips, legal issues aside, are one of the "value adds" of the console market.

Please show me the #s. I seriously doubt that the vast majority of console buyers have even heard of mod-chips, let alone are interested in getting one.

Consoles are commodity items purchased by people that aren't geeks, haven't read Slashdot, and probably don't have 3 Linux boxes in their home office.

The infinitesimal percentage of XBOX owners that also purchased a mod chip doesn't come close to making a mod chip a "value add" for the console(ignoring your incorrect useage of that term).

Re:You're kidding, right?

[geekoid]

it is value add to the people who want a mod chip.
OTOH every console owner I know has heard of mod chips, and that includes people who are not nerds.

Re:As a general rule

[Angry White Guy]

That didn't work for the Aibo. You buy the product, not the technology. Right or wrong, that's the way it is.

Re:As a general rule

[kableh]

IANAL (where have I heard that before), but I am willing to bet that is EXACTLY why they got shut down.

Why they are bothering, on the other hand, is beyond me. It is fairly simple to buy a flash chip for 5 bucks, flash it yourself, and mod away. The cat is out of the bag!

I have to agree with the Dreamcast fans though. This really sucks for those of us with a significant investment in our DCs, as Lik-Sang had nice 3rd party stuff for them.

you sure about that?

[martissimo]

Sony slaps PS2 chippers

that doesnt read like they are somebody who "allows mod chips"

Most consoles get chipped to play import games.

[Thag]

At least, in the group of people I know. I only know of one person out of the dozens of people I know who play video games who deals with pirated games a lot, and even then it's hard to say which games are pirates and which games are backup copies.

Does the XBox have regional lockout like other consoles do?

Jon Acheson

Re:As a general rule

[N3WBI3]

What the hell are you talking about man? I am saying that I should not be punished for doing something both legal and ethical (its a 2fer) because someone else may be doing something illegal, and you respond with he is doing something illegal and thats why I want to back up my games?

I need to make back ups of my games because I have a little brother who loves sand papaer, or an amerous english pug who is eyeing my game collection.. its non of your damn buisness why I need backups.

That being said if I give a game to little Billy I have just stolen from you, the thing is in America we are innocent until proven guilty.

Nintendo v Lik Sang

[stratjakt]

.. a couple years back, lik-sang had a similar run-in with nintendo over the N64 backup devices. They eventually got N to back off after they decided not to ship any units to North and Central America.

Perhaps the same type of thing could happen with MSFT.

Though I wonder if the mod in question, the PC-BIOXX/OpenXbox, counts as illegal. It is, in essence, a blank flashROM.

You attach it to the xbox, and completely replace the xbox' bios with whatever you flash to the chip. So it could be used to run a hacked xbox bios that plays pirated code, it could be used to run the linux bios, or it could be used to run the retail bios (if the one on the mobo got fried).

You could even use it on a PC mobo just as easily, if you wanted to play BIOS hacker. It's just a plain-vanilla 2mbit flashrom for the LPC header.

I mean, is the device itself illegal just because it has some illegal use?

Re:Nintendo v Lik Sang

[stratjakt]

No, I'm thinking about lik-sang.

The Bung GB-Xchanger was one product they refused to ship to North America, the Dr. 64 N64 backup devices were another.

Bung didn't die btw, they just changed their name.

Re:As a general rule

[joshsisk]

I don't think you can back up an xBox game anyway, at least not on a standard DVD burner. I had read that the discs spun backwards, precisely so that normal DVD burners couldn't copy them. Is this true, or just a rumor? Or is there a simple workaround?

Re:I don't care what you guys say

[N3WBI3]

lets see I can buy a dvdr for a couple of bucks, pop the origional in a mac and copy it while I make dinner/sleep/work. Its very cost effective, I spend a few minutes and and a few dollars. And I dont have to use the origionals.

I started this when I bought a game (civ2) which got scratched a short time later and I was told tuff by the company (I dont think they should have to replace it but if they dont have to I should be able to back it up).

Re:I don't care what you guys say

[Frank of Earth]

Go for it dude. Just figure out how to make your own mod chip and you can back up all the shit you want.

Re:As a general rule

[FakeMonkeyAutomaton]

You are correct, most are BIOS replacements...

...which is why most sellers are selling blank chips and programmers. Users are expected to go out and find something to flash on the chip. Of course anyone who can find game disk images to burn will have little trouble finding a bios to flash on their mod.

I do not know if Lik-Sang was following this practice or not. This easy programmability will certainly make it more difficult for MS to write checks in future releases that stop games from running on modded consoles, however.

Re:As a general rule

[N3WBI3]

No clue, I dont own an xbox. But if I did and I could I would want to back up my games, or I might want to run an OS on it (its a pretty good piece of hardware).

Was M$ forced to design an expensive box?

[A nonymous Coward]

Microsoft designed an expensive box. PS2 and GameCube were designed better. Economics, as you put it, would dictate that Microsoft start a new design and beat the competition.

Detroit designed expensive to build cars and Japan beat them. Would you think it proper for Detroit to have shut down the Japanese car makers?

Re:Was M$ forced to design an expensive box?

[raygundan]

"If they illegally copied, modified, and resold their copyright materials, yes."

You are correct, sir.

I do not know if the modchips contain copyrighted MS code. I suspect some do and some don't depending on the method used.

If they do not, however, NO ONE is reselling copyrighted materials.

Your example is slightly incorrect, too. There is no difference between what a reseller of mod-chipped xboxes is doing, and a reseller of modified cars, except that only an idiot would sell the reseller a car at a loss. How can you claim that "Company A" is keeping "all the profits?" when "Company B" has no profit to start with? If "Company B" has a poorly designed product that they can't manufacture at a low enough cost to keep up with their competition AND make a profit, why should the courts enforce their profits? Is it illegal to buy an xbox and then just leave it sitting around? Hardly. Yet that leaves MS in exactly the same money-losing situation as putting a mod chip in and using it for legal purposes.

Pirating games is illegal. Building a modchip containing modified MS XBox BIOS code is illegal. Building a modchip that contains no MS code and using it to play a European game or make backups of your games is legal.

Re:MS was forced

[Anonvmous Coward]

"Most normal companies would have to drop out of the market because they can't afford to keep up with the competition. MS isn't normal."

Actually, MS is 'perfectly normal'. They have invested a great deal of money into this, and they have 4 years to turn it around into a moneymaker. The worst case scenario is that they make the game market better for everybody. Oh no! Damn them!

More B.S. from Bill...

[Maul]

Microsoft doesn't want people to have the right to do what they wish with the products they buy.

Yes, these modchips facilitate piracy. But they also have legitimate uses on every console they exist for. Not to mention that people should be able to use the modchip for "copied" games so long as those are backup copies.

Lik Sang offered plenty of legitimate products for people who enjoy modding their consoles, tinkering, homebrew developmenet, etc. Of course, Microsoft doesn't want people to tinker and mod for ANY reason, because this undermines the next step in MS's business plan.

Microsoft is trying very hard to establish a sense that you don't own your X-Box, but they do. With Palladium, they are going to extend that idea to the PC... you don't own your computer... MS does.

Microsoft is going to use their money and power to take out any companies like Lik Sang in the future that give people the ability to mod their X-Box, or mod their PC's hardware after Palladium is released.

Re:How could anyone not expect this to happen?

[liquidsin]

The legality of the handgun is ambiguous at best. Perhaps no crimes are committed in the production of them, but consider that since most jurisdictions outlaw hunting with handguns, why else would you need one? An easily accessible handgun allows people to ROB convenience stores and MUG the elderly in Cetral Park.

Re:As a general rule

[N3WBI3]

Well as you are an intrusive, rude, and self rightous asshole, there is another alternative. You get the hell out of where I put my games or what I do to a piece of hardware I put good money out for. You just turn your sorry ass around and get the hell outta my house. Now you dont need to waste the time and effort telling me what to do with **MY** time and **MONEY**, and you no onger need to yell at others to support a shitty buisness model.

Microsoft dictates how to hook up your stereo...

[tenzig_112]

I hooked my CD player into my "Cassette" input on my receiver because my DAT machine is already hooked up there. Wouldn't ya know it, when the thing died a year later (within the warranty) the company said I'd violated the agreement I had tacitly signed by opening the shrinkwrap.

Silly me. I guess they do have a right to defend their intellectual property. I mean, it's not as though I can configure something I bought whatever way I wish.

Ambiguous my ass...

[Pollux]

Perhaps no crimes are committed in the production or installation of them.

Say I go buy a used '89 Chevy pickup from a used car dealership. Perfectly legal.

There's a company in town called Classic Roadsters. They've produced a modded body for the '89 line of Chevy pickups that is very similar looking to a Hummer. Perfectly legal (the body shape doesn't breach any size requirements stipulated by the DOT).

but consider that most users would utilize their modchip to play copied games or ROMs or Linux, etc.

Now, say I took that modded truck, dressed myself into some army get-up, and drove onto the local army base, pretending to belong to the armed services (I don't). Now I'm doing something illegial.

My point is this: the XBox is a piece of physical hardware. It can be patented. It cannot be licensed. Once I purchase an XBox (if I ever do), I will OWN it 100%. Nothing that Microsoft ever says or does can change that. If I want to take the bloody thing apart and turn it into a toaster oven, Microsoft can't do a thing about it.

People have outfitted their cars for over 60 years now making them better. Say I had a beat-up Ford pickup that didn't work anymore, so I put in an engine from a Dodge pickup so I could get the Ford working again (please don't tell me if this is possible or not... I don't know, but it's all for the sake of argument). I don't think Dodge or Ford would complain. I'm sure you know someone who put a new stereo system into their car. They didn't have to buy a whole new car to get that stereo system they wanted. They put one into their own car so they could have better sound. People soup up their cars all the time specifically so that they don't have to buy a new car just to get the same features. It's perfectly legal to do so. It should be perfectly legal to do the same with consoles.

Xbox is sold at a loss.Microsoft needs to sell games for the xbox in order to recoup the losses it incurs for every unit sold.

Tough shit. Do you see Lincoln selling their Towncar at $9,999 brand new missing an air conditioner, and then selling air conditioners for $20,000 more? And on top of it all, making the Towncar so that no other AC would work in it except for Lincoln's own AC? Of course not! But this is what Microsoft is doing! Don't blame the customer for finding a better deal which is less profitable to Microsoft.

Re:As a general rule

[N3WBI3]

Well dipshit, I own legally everything I use. you are a perfect fit for M$ a moron who thinks everyone is a tiheif who does not want you in their buisness..

This just fucking sucks.

[zulux]

I can add a new cat-back exaust system to my car.

I can add a new hard-drive to my computer.

I can add an aftermarkt remote for my tv.

I can add a network card to my PDA.

I can add headphone to my stereo.

I hope my sentiments express fully my displeasure:
Microsoft, your unethacal employees, and your astro-turfers here on Slasdot: suck my dick and add me to your Foes. I don't need friends like you.

It's not down now, so you're just paranoid (NT)

[mmacdona86]

NT

Server Down?

[viper21]

HAHAHA!

This is too funny.

Microsoft, exercising one of the many holes in IIS must have screwed their machines into oblivion.

That would definately explain the server outage.

I decree that this will now be known as the M$ Effect. A company exploiting their well known software vunlerabilities in order to screw the hell out of somebody that is pissing them off.

-S

Re:As a general rule

[kasperd]

So it'd be a simple case of copyright infringement.

But every user already has legally purcased said software. So it might not be illegal. In the country where I live, some modifications of copyrighted software is legal.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:As a general rule

[e2d2]

Exactly, If they had their way you would only rent your entire life as a service and own nothing. You will not be allowed to fix anything and only authorized technicians will do so. Your clothes will come with a EULA which specifies the period of time that you can wear them, after which you will have to upgrade. Expiration dates on milk will now be a binding contract.

The idea of ownership is quickly being erased by Madison Avenue and the Globochem legal department because it doesn't offer enough return value to investors. They seek the golden egg and if they can't find it they will create it with an army of lawyers and lobbyists.

Re:Microsoft

[Treeluvinhippy]

how original

Re:As a general rule

[b0r1s]

Ford doesn't sell cars at a loss, knowing that people have to buy gas/parts from them.

Microsoft does sell consoles at a loss, making nearly all of their money on the games sold for the consoles. Mod chips allow people to pirate games, and thus cost not only microsoft, but the original authors of the game substantial amounts of money.

I have no problem with Microsoft shutting down people that sell aids in priracy. As a software developer, I respect their ability to own their software, no matter what form it may take. If the users disagree with this, they should not be buying Microsoft consoles.

For chrisssakes.

[Cinnamon]

I never, ever post here, mostly because Slashdot is so packed nowadays it's probably already been said. But I feel compelled.

All of you saying Microsoft has the right to do this:

Are you all complete and utter retards? Does this really have to be explained to you anew each time something actions such as this (Not necessarily by Microsoft) has been taken?

Let's try again, slowly for those of you who can't understand it.

1) Although there aren't enough details available (That I've seen) to judge this particular instance, virtually every time a purveyor of products that let you change what you've legally purchased to do something else gets shut down it is NOT with actual legal action, it is with the THREAT of legal action. The sickening fact of all this isn't whether or not these entities are within their legal right to do this, but that the question is never asked. Lawsuits are so onerous that the mere threat of one is sufficient to stop what MAY BE legal. The crucial legal court test NEVER OCCURS.

2) The 'slippery slope', while being largely a strawman argument, in cases like this is perhaps valid. If you don't think ANY hardware company is absolutely DROOLING at the prospect of extending it's reach far beyond the change of posession (purchase) of a product you're living in a fantasy world. Precendents such as this will of course start with a basis in what are apparently legal and moral positions, right now in the name of stopping piracy, but there is absolutely no reason to stop there. Once you've established the precedent of extending so-called 'rights' beyond the customer taking posession of your product you have infintely more control over what they can and cannot do, spanning legal and illegal uses.

3) The fact that devices such as mod chips (And P2P networks, for that matter) have both legitimate and illegitimate uses is not just a side argument. It is important to realize that many freedoms enjoyed by Americans (And for that matter, citizens of many other countries) are freedoms that could be used for both legitimate and illegitimate purposes. Drawing comparisons between the use of mod chips and free speech is more than just hyperbole, it is an attempt to illustrate that once you start allowing the restriction of something based on it's (in this case potentially) illegal uses you are setting a very dangerous precedent, and one that because of the DMCA has criminal and not just civil ramifications.

The DMCA is the bridge between a civil lawsuit brought by Microsoft and someone going to jail for making or using something that could be used to violate IP 'rights'. If you still don't believe me, ask yourself why they need the DMCA then? Why was it necessary for the government to enact legislation that allows companies and the government to take punitive actions against those who violate IP, or more accurately those who MAKE things that COULD be used to violate IP, rather than stick with civil proceedings? (Even the threat of which, I might add, seem to work just fine.) In other words, if you're going to say no one's going to get sent to jail for this, why is there a law that says you will? Do you honestly think that mod chip makers should go to jail?

4) Microsoft's choice to sell their products (X-box) at a loss does not automatically give them the legal right to take any and all action they see fit to try and make money through other means, in this case through game licenses. It's been said time and again but you still don't seem to get it, just because somebody WANTS to make money doesn't mean they GET to. It's very possible that their choice to try and pursue this method of profit is foolish and could result in failure due to the boxes being modded for uses besides purchasing the products they do make money on, but because of point (1) we may never know. By using the threat of legal action they may have secured a business model that is unavailable to other companies without as deep pockets. Do you think Microsoft would have succeeded in beating down Lik Sang if Microsoft were a small startup? (Not that X-box's major competitors, such as Sony, are small startups.) No. They can do this because of point (1), and because other companies realize the law being on their side (perhaps) is a moot point. In this case, Might Makes Right.

I hope this explains a bit to those of you comparing modding your X-Box to rolling your odometer back on your car (boggle) or simply accusing posters of being Microsoft/other large coporate entity bashers. It IS about essential rights, albeit indirectly, whether you choose to believe ir ot not.

Re:For chrisssakes.

[mpe]

Although there aren't enough details available (That I've seen) to judge this particular instance, virtually every time a purveyor of products that let you change what you've legally purchased to do something else gets shut down it is NOT with actual legal action, it is with the THREAT of legal action. The sickening fact of all this isn't whether or not these entities are within their legal right to do this, but that the question is never asked . Lawsuits are so onerous that the mere threat of one is sufficient to stop what MAY BE legal. The crucial legal court test NEVER OCCURS.

Quite likely the plaintiff never actually wants the case to be brought to court. Just to spin out the case long enough, including with having hearings about hearings, that the defendent will run out of money.

The fact that devices such as mod chips (And P2P networks, for that matter) have both legitimate and illegitimate uses is not just a side argument . It is important to realize that many freedoms enjoyed by Americans (And for that matter, citizens of many other countries) are freedoms that could be used for both legitimate and illegitimate purposes.

Just about any tool or machine ever developed can be used for "legitimate" and "illegitimate" purposes. Sometimes the only difference between the two is political whim. Well though out laws address actions, rather than the tools or methods used.

Unauthorized ?!#

[PrimeNumber]

The chips typically allow a game machine to play legally and illegally copied discs, run unauthorized software and play game discs intended for other geographic regions.

Unauthorized by who?

Re:Unauthorized ?!#

[Skuld-Chan]

Makes it sound like there's a list or something...

Repeat after me:

[raygundan]

"There is no right to profit."
"There is no right to profit."
"There is no right to profit."

Fuck you M$

[t0qer]

Mod me down all you want, somebody had to say it. (Caresses his lik-sang GBA flash cart)

DevKit BIOS

[RatBastard]

The BOIS being used is a leaked copy from the XBox Devkit. A clear violation of copyright (and the contract between MS and said developer). As an XBox owner you do own a license to use the BIOS in your XBox. You do not, however, have a kicense to use the BIOS from a devkit.

Re:DevKit BIOS

[kasperd]

The BOIS being used is a leaked copy from the XBox Devkit.

That wasn't mentioned in the previous comment, it obviously changes the situation. Now that it is a copy of some software which you haven't legally purchased, I believe it is indeed a copyright infringement.

Re:As a general rule

[geekee]

What if people start incorporating open source software into proprietary code and violate the GPL? Not so ok anymore when the shoe is on the other foot. But when MS does it, everyone's up in arms.

It has to be SUBSTANTIAL non-infringing use

[yerricde]

Where did [the concept of substantial non-infringing use] go?

Non-infringing use is not always substantial. For instance, Napster had a non-infringing use, but seeing as how over 90% of napster users shared files that they didn't have the right to share, such non-infringing use was not substantial.

Besides, the DMCA that's currently on the books doesn't always allow for even substantial non-infringing uses.

What...?

[dachshund]

Playstation 2 drops price, GameCube drops price, suddenly XBOX is the expensive guy on the block. MS was forced to drop price to keep up. It's called competition.

Microsoft may be in a disadvantageous economic situation, but since when does copyright law have anything to do with protecting companies from bad pricing situations?

If I run a pizza parlour, and the guy across the street is pricing me out of business, it would sure be nice if the cops showed up and put him out of business. That doesn't make it right for me to anonymously accuse him of running a drug ring.

Re:As a general rule

[anotherone]

It's a rumor. They use normal DVDs.

DVD-R doesn't work for dual-layer game discs

[yerricde]

pop the origional in a mac and copy it while I make dinner/sleep/work.

Not if the original is dual-layer. Some PS2 games and all Xbox and GameCube games are dual-layer, or at least recorded on the second layer if single-layer. (The spiral on the second layer goes inward rather than outward.) DVD-R discs have only a first layer.

console mods like sat mods?

[phorm]

If this turns out anything like the satellite-received modifying industry, chances are MS will never catch *everybody* and it will become somewhat of an long and tedius battle over time.

The satellite-mod industry may be a bad example though, I know people who have paid tons more for a modified received than they would have actually paying for the channels themselves (though at the moment, we can't get American sat legally in Canada, or at least not here).

Why Microsoft does this - Lost in the noise

[AAAWalrus]

People have established that Microsoft isn't attacking hackers directly. If you want to open up your xbox and piss on the circuits, BillyBorg can't stop you. If you manufacture and sell commercially a means to circumvent or alter their code, they can. The real question is, why?

Basically, MS could care less about someone making money doing this. What they really care about is what this enables. A commercial outfit, manufacturing and selling components *enables* virtually all people to purchase xboxes with the *intent* of using them for alternate purposes. If they leave hack-shops unchecked for long, they have basically allowed a competing market to develop against what they really want to sell - games and service.

If I want to purchase an xbox because I want to mod it AND I know I can just buy a chip online with ease, Microsoft would rather not sell me the xbox in the first place. Since they can't discriminate against buyers, they can make it more difficult for me to purchase a chip. Microsoft is not targetting the hardcore hackers. If you want to hack an xbox that badly and you have the skills, you'll do it. Who they *are* targetting is the average Joe Sixpack who buys an xbox. If he buys it and later sees he can easily purchase and install a mod to do things like play pirated games or run a webserver, Microsoft has just lost marketshare in the market that counts.

THAT's what they are trying to stop. Not hacking, but the widespread usage of manufactured mods by average users.

Re:Hate console makers (in a way)

[anotherone]

The problem is that the mod chip contains leaked code from the dev version of the x-box, which you didn't buy. They're basically selling pirated software. That's why MS is angry- what's on the chip, not the fact that there's a chip.

Re:Reprisal

[filmcritic]

the above post has been submitted to the FBI for determining possible action against the poster

MSNBC...news.com...

[Schnapple]

FYI, The reason that the story is the same for MSNBC and news.com is that MSNBC has a utility you can download which can give you headline alerts - big stories from MSNBC, tech stories from C|Net, etc. When you get a C|Net story the site you get directed to is msnbc-cnet.com.com, which is the same site as news.com.com with a different URL. When you go anywhere else on the C|Net site you're still on msnbc-cnet.com.com, so the site isn't really MSNBC at all, it's just a way to see who came from the utility.

Re:How could anyone not expect this to happen?

[FreeUser]

An easily accessible handgun allows people to ROB convenience stores and MUG the elderly in Cetral[sic] Park.

So does a baseball bat or an easilly accessible knife. Shall we ban buck-knives? How about steaknives? Butterknives? Box cutters? Hell, we can all start eating applesauce instead, or pre-mashed foods a la the restaurant scene in Gilliam's Brazil,/i>, a dark comedic future that is looking more and more like contemporary America each day we spend under the dubious tutalage of Baby Bush.

I'm not a fan of the NRA or handguns in particular, but the notion of disallowing technologies, be they potential weapons, chips, or software, because of what people might possibly do with them is the kind of fallacious logic that got us into this mess to begin with. People may not like the slippery slope argument, and indeed may even label it logically fallacious (which it may in fact be), but historical evidence shows just how apropos the argument remains when applied to real world social and political policy, and while historical performance may not be a guarantee of future performance, ignoring it is a certain means to learning nothing whatsoever from history and repeating it again, ad nauseum.

Re:How could anyone not expect this to happen?

[geekoid]

An easily accessible handgun allows people to defend themselvs from being Robbed and allow the elderly to defend themselves in Cetral Park.

The gun is "the great equalizer". an 80 pound elderly woman can protect herself from a 300 pound maniac.

Funny, noone keeps number on the amount of crime prevented, and the enumber of lives saved because of a handgun.

Personally, I would use a pump action shot gun with an open choke for home defence, but that is a personal choice.

Re:As a general rule

[shepd]

>Microsoft does sell consoles at a loss

Dumping and price fixing are often illegal. I doubt they're being sold at a loss considering the legal problems they could expose themselves to. Maybe they are being sold at cost.

Either way, this is their problem, nobody else's. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen!

>I have no problem with Microsoft shutting down people that sell aids in priracy.

They aid in making backups so your kids don't destroy your hard earned property.

If you disbelieve that, then JVC and Sony are both horrible companies, since they both created VTR, which is just as useful for pirating movies as a modchip is for pirating games on the X-Box.

>As a software developer, I respect their ability to own their software, no matter what form it may take.

I might not be a software developer, but I also respect the right of a software developer to do independant research on a system and create their own software for it, indepenently. I also support the right of another software developer to modify someone else's work, much in the way I would support someone drawing on the Mona Lisa (assuming they owned it). Not that it's always a nice thing, but if you own it, it's your right (and, unlike the Mona Lisa, X-Box firmware isn't a scarce resource).

Microsoft's evil, blah blah blah...

[Jayde Stargunner]

There's a lot of "This is typical of M$", "Antitrust ... etc.", and "This just goes to show they have too much power," going around.

BS. Plain and simple.

This is STANDARD industry practice. Do some research before you start going off on a big rant about how evil MS is. (Which may be true, but not because of this. lol)

Sony has sued or threatened to sue just about EVERY SINGLE mod-chip maker and retailer during the last year. They have threatened and/or sued installers and resellers of mod chips, as well as sued the mod chip makers into the ground multiple times.

Nintendo isn't much better. But Sony has been hyper-aggresive about this. I have friends in Germany who run a console modding business, yet refuse to do anything related to the PS2 due to Sony's legal threats to them.

This is not a Microsoft thing. It is a console thing. That's all there is to it.

-Jayde

Bad assumption

[werdna]

I don't give a darn WHAT the EULA says. EULA isn't exactly a strong legal document

Of course the phrase "strong legal document" isn't particularly refined, so we could quibble about your menaing. But if you mean that a EULA isn't generally enforceable, and if legal obligations and rights aren't affected thereby, you haven't been reading the case reporters lately (or, really, for the past few years).

Particularly after the 7th Circuit ProCD case and the more recent Bowers decision out of the Federal Circuit, statements like the above are, at best, naive.

Re:So what?

[nagora]

This is an appliance folks, much like a VCR or a toaster.

Exactly: why should MS be allowed to tell you what you can do with YOUR applicance any more than a toaster maker can?

"Opening case may invalidate the warranty" is where MS's rights end in this case.

Kill them all, that's what I say.

TWW

Whining counts for nothing

[werdna]

The only votes that matter here are thouse you make with your pocketbook and your feet.

If you find Microsoft's products and policies, particularly XBOX, offensive, don't buy them. I have no idea whether or not Hong Kong law permits this action to be taken, but it doesn't really matter. At the end of the day, if a proprietary locked-down box doesn't do it for you, say so -- FOR REAL -- and buy a box from their competitors instead.

Re:As a general rule

[harvardian]

The fact that this post was modded up shows how zealous and unthinking so many people on this site are.

The EULA doesn't have ANYTHING TO DO with the shutting down of this website. Microsoft would most likely be suing Lik Sang for violating either the DMCA or IP rights (more likely IP rights, I would think, but IANAL). Microsoft has said before that they're NOT interested in punishing individual mod chippers, just mass distributors of mod chips.

Thus, you MAY do whatever you want to YOUR XBox and Microsoft won't care. The only caveat to this is if you're logged onto XBox Live -- Microsoft has reserved the right in the Live EULA to revoke the login rights of people with mod chips. This may piss some of you off, but do you really want people with mod chips on XBox Live? No, it could turn into CounterStrike before PunkBuster, with half of the people online cheating.

Re:As a general rule

[ZaMoose]

Gamecube discs spin backwards. That's probably what you were thinking of.

Brave Soul Among the Foot Stompers

[reallocate]

You're a brave soul to toss an adult opinion into this den of pubescent hormones. You'll be castigated as if you were pulling the rug out from under Peter Pan and all the little children in NeverNever Land. If you are really lucky, you might attract a nibble from an otherwise coherent grownup who happens to think that open source/free software is a philosophy capable of running the world, rather than an alternative software development model.

Mostly, though, what goes on here is just a bunch of metaphoric foot stomping. E.g.: MS, the DMCA, and the RIAA are all evil. Someone should do something. But not me. I still need to buy my games and my music. Still gotta be a trained consumer doing what I'm supposed to do. Me, me me; mine mine, mine

What did you really buy?

[why-is-it]

Because once they sell you the product, they have no legal rights to it anymore.

We used to be able to buy software and music, but now we just buy a license to be able to use the software / music.

I wonder how long it will be before someone tries that with durable consumer goods? It is sort of like that with leasing a car - you don't own it, you just have the right to use it for a certain period of time...

Re:As a general rule

[reallocate]

I suppose if Ford pulled this kind of stunt, I'd be inclined to not buy a Ford.

So...if you've got a mad on about MS, don't buy MS. You might not like the EULA, but once you rip off the shrinkwrap, they've got you. You can keep on shouting that you believe the EULA is worthless but you'd have to go to court to defend that claim. My guess is their lawyers are bigger than your lawyers.

DOJ antitrust chief resigns

[dcgaber]

FYI, it was announced today that Charles James, current head of AntiTrust division at DoJ, and who crafted the sell-out settlement, is resigning to become Cheveron's general counsel. Article is here.

Why No Support for a Linux Game Industry?

[reallocate]

If games are so bloody important to so many people who loathe Microsoft, how come there isn't a viable Linux game industry?

Any chance some people hate paying for games more than they hate MS?

EULA might not be strong, but the DMCA is...

[jbuilder]

And the DMCA can be invoked here. The XBox is a patented device, and the DMCA was designed specifcally to stop hacking of patented systems. Don't like it, that's fine, but the Ford analogy isn't quite valid here.

Lik Sang is done - at least for now.

Hah! That'll show the Chinese!!

[The Pi-Guy]

I can see it now, Lik-Sang's homepage, obviously hacked by Microsoft... "Hacked by Borgese"

(in case you don't get the joke, Borg == M$, and some Chinese hacker defaced a lot of web pages with the text "Hacked by Chinese)

--pi

Re:How could anyone not expect this to happen?

[liquidsin]

You'll also want a short barrel to maximize spread as well as increase maneuverability in tight corridors.

This fluff gets a +5?

[cybrthng]

If you modded your dreamcast you totally wasted your time--the thing could play ISOs out of the box.

I got my dreamcast long before the "Boot Disk" came out, and to play jap games i needed a region selectable mod chip.


If you thing Sony and Nintendo didn't have the cash to shutdown Lik-Sang, well, there's a second reason for me to think you're an idiot.

You can think whatever you want. These companies have vastly less R&D money and legal funding then Microsoft Does. Like i said in my original statements Nintendo chose an uncommon media format, and Sony chose to sell a linux kit. Neither company supports mod chipping and for all intents and purposes it always invalidates your warranty and support. That my friend, is idiotic.

They didn't shutdown Lik-Sang because they realized people don't like soldering crap to their expensive consoles, and there really wasn't a big effect on piracy here. Microsoft just went after them because they're obstinate bastards who want to defeat the linux xbox hackers at all cost. Both the hackers and Microsoft are motivated by ideology--linux on Xbox is without value to hackers and without cost to Microsoft--hell, Sony even sells linux kits to encourage people to develop ps2 development skills.

It has NOTHING to do with LINUX. Absolutely NOTHING. Sony charges a few hundred bucks for there linux kit, and i'm sure if Microsoft wanted the xbox to be a pc, then they too would release something or some 3rd party developer would do the deed.

Yeah, modchips sure ruined the life of PS2 and PS1 ... probably the most successful consoles ever.

Yeah, successfull doen't mean there the best. Ford Focus's are a top seller, but they still suck ass. Porches and Ferraris are kick ass cars and don't sell very many, but that doesn't make them less valuable then the pintos and station wagons.

Bottom line, the hardware belongs to however buys it, not whoever sells it. That's what "buying stuff" means.

Whatever, tell that to sony when you copy their dvd's, tell that to the RIAA when your trading pirated MP3's.. Just because you "CAN" doesn't mean microsoft should let it slide. You can own a gun, but they're not meant to shoot people. Do you think owning a gun means you can do anything you want with it? Does owning your dvd mean you can now sell copies of it because you can? Does owning your dvd player mean you can modify it to play other region dvd's and copied movies? no company is going to admit you have this right and they will do whatever it takes to protect there rights. If its right or wrong in your opinion it doesn't mean you can call me an idiot for having my own.

Product manufacturers are liable for there product useage to an extent. Microsoft is liable to its share holders, its developers and the consumers of its products. Why would they want to allow you to change the way there product operates when you choose to mod the thing and electricute yourself or break the thing in the process?

Re:This fluff gets a +5?

[aminorex]

This article should get beaten up pretty badly in moderation for being disingenuous and willfully fallacious.

Re:This fluff gets a +5?

[dvdeug]

Neither company supports mod chipping and for all intents and purposes it always invalidates your warranty and support.

The company may find it the coolest thing since swiss cheese, and it will still invalidate your warranty. Changing things in your PC invalidates your warranty; what company is going to support a system after you've gone in there with a soldering gun?

Re:I don't care what you guys say

[Hrothgar The Great]

Why does he have to figure it out? Someone else already did, and then, they did this other thing everyone used to know about - they started a business based on a product which they invented and manufactured, and they sold that product. And perhaps this guy bought that product.

You're like the tenth person in here to insist that it's A-OK to mod something, but only if you figure it all out yourself. What bullshit! Better get in the car you made yourself in the garage and drive down to your field to harvest the crops you grew so you can eat tonight on the kitchen table you built. What? You mean you BOUGHT ALL THOSE THINGS?! ILLEGAAAAAAAAAALLLLLL!

Re:As a general rule

[Sylver Dragon]

I don't understand this whole "backup" arguement. I play many games on PC and Consoles and never had one "go bad" (and I also lend out my games).

I'm not so worried about "going bad" as I am about theft, real theft. I lost a lot of CDs a while back when I had my truck broken into, made me really wish I had backed them up and used the backups in my truck, instead of the originals.
I've had several friends have thier house/apartment broken into and computer equipment taken, including games that were readily accessable. Again, if they had been using backups and had the original tucked away in a closet (which didn't seem to get searched) they would not have been out a couple hundred in computer software.
Sadly, myself and my friends had to learn the hard way, that there are some very good reasons not to use the originals. I've also fallen victim to leaving my CD carrier in my car in the summer, its amazing what can happen. I know it was my own stupidity that caused it, but if I had taken precautions well in advance, it would not have been a big deal.
I now like to use backups whenever possible, and keep my originals tucked away, nice and safe.

Cheating them out of profit?

[Featureless]

Who decides what profits they're entitled to and hence what constitutes "cheating"? The console makers came up with a new, arbitrary set of rules: "we know you think you bought this cosole, but you can't do anything with it we don't authorize." But who says they're allowed to make up that rule? The DMCA? Do you believe the DMCA is a good law? Then stop reading. You're beyond help.

In most informed people's opinion the DMCA is a legislative anathema, to be ignored through civil disobedience and hopefully overturned, either in the courts or the legislature, ASAP. Even with the DMCA, you have to convince a court that the mod chip lacks a significant non-infringing use - far from an open-and-shut case in my book.

Lik-sang gives you equipment and instructions to modify your console. You can buy it and not use it. You can buy it to install Linux on your XBox (a very cheap linux box with hot graphics and a TV out... interesting!). You can install it and make backups of games you own. No crime has been committed, even under the DMCA, by you, Lik-Sang, or anyone else.

Use your mod chip to steal a game? Then you've committed a crime. Not the mod chip maker, or reseller, or UPS for bringing it to your door, or a telecom company for carrying the ecommerce transaction... not anyone else. You. No one else.

That's why the DMCA is bad. It makes a ridiculous bargain with not only our works but our speech, obligating us to guard against possible infringement in advance! Can you imagine how absurd? This is totally incompatible with common sense, let alone with prevailing 1st amendment law. How does anyone know what you'll do with any particular work or speech? The government cannot and should not become the arbiter of speech or acts to insure that it might not "potentially" assist in violating someone's copyright. Not even if IP was our sole industry - and it's not; in fact, it's so tiny in comparison to the size of our economy that this kind of protectionism's negative effects on research, debate and commerce will vastly outweigh any benefit in reduction of piracy.

The unwritten part of the DMCA is that anything that has the potential to threaten the profits of an IP producer is fair game for prosecution, and whether or not there's a victory prosecution is often a victory in itself. It's called a "chilling effect." Look it up.

In principle I would love to give Microsoft a way to have a fool-proof business model of allowing consumers to ammortize hardware costs up-front with subsidies through software sales down the line (the console business model in brief), but it is insane to sacrifice our freedoms provide them with guarantees, not to mention unnecessary. The model doesn't have to be fool-proof to work, and every hardware maker knows they are on thinner ice insisting they can dictate what you can and can't do with your property. Is Microsoft guaranteed to have people do what Microsoft wants when they take their xbox home? Absolutely not. Buy it as a cheap jukebox and DVD player, and never touch a game. Run linux on it if you're clever. Microsoft just lost $150 bucks (since the console costs more to make than its retail price)!

Feel bad for them? They knew the rules of the game, and changing them to make a bad idea work is not how things should go in the world. Mod chips don't cheat them out of any profits - though their users might. And if they can't be bothered to prosecute their users when they do, it is not our problem.

Re:Cheating them out of profit?

[Peyna]

Instead of replying to all of these comments, I'll just reply to this one. I agree with the point you all are making. Perhaps console makers would be smarter to lease the consoles to people much like a cable box instead of selling them. That way they could control what you do with them. Of course, I wonder how many people would pay for to rent a console for some amount of time?

I know LikSang, Yes, I am from HK

[sdugoten2]

Here is some background of Lik Sang. It is a small shop that sell console games and accessories sited inside Golden center in Hong Kong. (In case you don't know, Golden center is a very very very popular computer/games/console/software center for HK ppl and tourist) The shop is no bigger than 200 square feet. There are like a dozen more of those small shops in the Golden center that sell similar stuff. And you know what? Every single shop there sell mod-chips and pre-modded console. Hong Kong ppl already used to buy/play private games, since the era of Nitendo.

The reason why M$ only go after LikSang is that they are high profile. They sell mod-chips online. There are in fact hundreds of those shop out there in HK sell mod-chip/pre-modded console, they just don't do it online. M$ might be able to stop LikSang sell the chips online, but they can't do shit other than that.

I am not saying buying/play private games are right, but HK ppl are so used to it that it becomes the norm. One thing is interesting I would like to share with you guys. The way they sell private console games in HK is kind of funny. Console games usually don't sell in Golden center, since this is such a popular tourist spot. Ppl sell consoles games usually in some shop next to Golden center. When you walk in to those shops, you see private games on racks. However, you see no sales or shopkeeper. There is a paper basket next to the door with money and changes inside. All you need to do is to pick your game and put money into the paper baskets before you leave the shop. Usually, "shop keeper" either pretend to be a shopper or watching outside of the shop. Just make sure you did put money into that basket or someone will beat the crap out of you if you don't. So, if police or whoever come, they can't do anything since they can't find the shop keeper.

Private console CD games are usually around $3 US dollars each and around $8 US dollars for DvD games.

Re:Hate console makers (in a way)

[dstone]

That's why MS is angry- what's on the chip, not the fact that there's a chip.

No, let's be honest: MS is angry that there is a chip. Plain and simple. Now, they are claiming that the chip contains leaked dev code, and that's how they hope to eliminate/reduce the chips being sold. If a law has been broken WRT copyright or confidentiality, then they have reason to pursue legal action. But I'm pretty sure they'll be pissed off that chips exist with or without stolen code.

Even as legal, reverse-engineered chips exist, people will do two things that MS does not like:
1) Buy a console and pirate games. The console is cheap (possibly subsidized) and MS sees reduced or no license revenues from these games.
2) Buy a console and run it for non-gaming purposes altogether (eg, MP3 station, Linux box, etc.) Again, they end up selling a barely profitable console and MS sees no license revenues from game sales.

If Sony is just as agressive...

[SuperKendall]

then why have most of the PS2 mod chip sites not been shut down?

Perhaps some have been and I've not heard of it, but the last I checked it was pretty easy to get a PS2 modchip.

Just because they design the system to be difficult for pirates doesn't mean the company will do anything much beyond that.

Re:As a general rule

[Squareball]

Fine, then let's shut down Discount Auto Parts, Pep Boys, Auto Zone et al. They sell parts that aren't FROM FORD but will work on Ford cars, and will modify the ford car you bought. Don't you get it?

Re:As a general rule

[Squareball]

And what if EVERY SINGLE car manufacturer did this? What would you do then? Not buy a car? What if it was federal law that NO ONE could sell 3rd party accesories for cars? What if it was illegal for you to go to the local Auto Zone and buy a new gas cap and install it your self? What if it was illegal to buy a CD Player for your car because it didn't come from Ford or Mercedes but rather PINE or Panasonic? What would you think then? What if this was all FEDERAL law (as the DMCA is)? The point is.. where does this stop?

grrr...

[Sj0]

I think this is as much a YRO story as a Microsoft one. This ends up applying the Microsoft philosophy in hardware, which I find disturbing -- The idea that they control things you physically own, after you've bought them, paid for them, and brought them home, rings of corporate facism to me.

I'm not sure about anyone else, but I think I like the idea of corporate facism to be even less appealing than traditional facism. At least there, you can overthrow the government!

Re:Hate console makers (in a way)

[anotherone]

OK, but what's your point? The chip contains stolen data, and 90% of the people who buy it are going to use it to steal more data. Just because it can be used to install linux on the xbox doesn't mean that that's what people are going to use it for. I've never seen stats on it, but I would bet that most users with mod chips are just using them to steal games. Why should Microsoft tolerate that?

Re:So what?

[nagora]

They can bitch and moan all they like, and they can go after a few big mod chip marketers, and how does that make a difference?

Would you suggest that the chip makers just "don't listen" to MS when they come ofter them? Do you think it would help them? I sure as hell don't.

The other thing to consider of course is that Microsoft is not doing this just because they're bored - they have a responsibility to the companies that make games for their console.

Like MS gives a toss about other companies. The only interest they have in the X-box is to make the X-box2 a platform for DRM; that's why they're so keen on stamping out mod chips: they're posturing to the guys in Hollywood that they can be trusted to keep user's sticky fingers out of their product when the time comes.

Kill them all, that's what I say.

Thanks for your insight.

It's the only language they understand.

TWW

Another good reason to use a Dreamcast

[00_NOP]

Okay, a shameless plug. But one piece of MS sponsored technology - the Dreamcast - has already been "opened" and cannot be shut again.

Re:As a general rule

[reallocate]

Beats me where it's going to stop. Pretty sure preventing it will take more than pseudonymous Slashdot posters giving their caps keys a workout.

The car analogy breaks down without much effort. Seen from Microsoft's viewpoint (with which I am not concurring), one's acquisition of software or hardware is more akin to renting than to purchase. Their analogy might be: You've rented a car from me. You signed a rental contract that prevents you from making any mechanical or cosmetic changes to the car.

The notion of "renting" rather than "buying and owning" seems to go hand-in-hand with the notion of licensing software. When possession of a software program transfers to you -- commercial, free, open source, etc. -- you acquire a license to use the recorded binary representation of the translated source code. You do not own the source code. Note that the program may be transferred on CD, on floppy, over the Internet, or in a chip in a game box.

Bad analogy.

[cybrthng]

It is more like saying.

"What if i sold you a mod chip for your car that gave your free gas from any gas station using stolen credit card numbers."

The mod chip for the xbox isn't specifically for running Linux. If it was, what a novel idea that would be. The mod chip is sold as a way to run pirated games, dvd's and whatnot.

That is all the mod chip does. It doesn't modify your xbox to go faster, perform better or provide an alernative/replacement cpu/bios. It changes the xbox to run illegal software.

Microsoft isn't after the linux hackers.. no where did they mention anything about linux.

Re:As a general rule

[reallocate]

Have to admit that, for the life of me, I've never been able to sustain interest in any game for more than 30 seconds. They're all a big yawn to me.

The merits of a legal or political case won't do anyone any good unless someone has the willingness and the resources to argue those merits in the right places and at the right times. No matter how principled your own position, other people can take an opposing, but equally principled, position. Liekwise, many not-so-principled people will recognize the merits of your position but work to defeat you simply because your loss will be their gain.

Ranting about the evils of MS on Slashdot is preaching to the choir, pure and simple. Just noise without substance, Nothing will happen. Thwarting MS, or the RIAA, etc., requires the creation of countervailing legal, political and economic forces.

Ooh! WannaBe Censors Afoot!

[reallocate]

Come on! What's off-topic? If you don't like someone challenging the sacred shibboleths of Slashdot, respond to it. Don't try to censor it.

Re:The DMCA will win

[dschuetz]

Of course, the law only supports consumers as far as they're willing to pay their lawyers.

Remember DeCCS? That utility that would crack DVDs. Remember how 2600 lost a case because they posted it on their site?

That's what I meant about the law only being as good as your lawyers -- in the end, it doesn't matter what the law *says*, what matters is what you're able to get away with. And, if someone challenges you on that, it matters that you have better lawyers than they do.

The MPAA had better lawyers than 2600. That doesn't mean it can't be appealed elsewhere, or on other grounds (as it was a district-level ruling).

Re:As a general rule

[IronChef]

...not knowing they may have contained Microsoft's code?

I believe most Xbox mod chips are shipped BLANK for just this reason.

Re:As a general rule

[DavidRavenMoon]

I'm not so worried about "going bad" as I am about theft, real theft.

What if they steal the backups? ;)

It looks like a rumor.

[LittleStone]

Guess nobody is questioning this is just a rumor.

Many things to be questioned:
1. Hongkong's Custom won't give a damn to Microsoft, unless there's solid evidence they are selling copyright infringed products. If you have taken a look at the product Lik Sang has offered, most of the product could be obtained from other sources, which MS did not shut them down. The only problematic product is the OpenXbox's PC-BioXX.
2. From cache of Google, Lik Sang's PC-BioXX did not offer a copy of BIOS included. Thus I would say the Lik Sang won't be that stupid to give MS an excuse.
3. HK is a small place. If Lik Sang is shut down because of that, the news would be on HK's newsgroups very soon, sooner than what you would hear from source outside. There's nothing like that yet.
4. And how come it is "A representative in Microsoft's Australian subsidiary confirmed that the company has taken legal action against Hong Kong-based Lik Sang."??? Microsoft has operations in Hong Kong. It is extremely stupid to get Australian subsidiary to work a HK problem, when they have all the people they needed in HK.
5. HK Custom has tradition to announce any raid on companies selling pirated software. Didn't see that in news from HK though.

It seems to me that some competitors of Lik Sang are spreading rumor during the down time of Lik Sang's server.

They don't need one.

[Perianwyr Stormcrow]

Remember, most car manufacturers would probably give cars away for free if they could have total, iron-fisted control of the sale of replacement parts.

Big freakin deal.

[Perianwyr Stormcrow]

You know and I know that all Lik Sang did was change the name of the company. I'm sure there will be another company very soon selling "OpenX86BoxBios" which is exactly the same thing.

Ha ha, Microsoft. Even the horse you rode in on is smarter.

if it makes you feel better, i don't need any mods

[TRACK-YOUR-POSITION]

I got my dreamcast long before the "Boot Disk" came out, and to play jap games i needed a region selectable mod chip.

Okay, I stand corrected.

You can think whatever you want. These companies have vastly less R&D money and legal funding then Microsoft Does. Like i said in my original statements Nintendo chose an uncommon media format, and Sony chose to sell a linux kit. Neither company supports mod chipping and for all intents and purposes it always invalidates your warranty and support. That my friend, is idiotic.

I didn't say they supported it, I said they didn't bother shutting down Lik-Sang. They did the math, and it wasn't rational to expend an iota of effort to shut them down. I don't know the exact sizes of the companies involved here (I suspect Sony is way larger than you think...) but for Sony or Nintendo crushing Lik-Sang would be absolutely nothing (just as it was to Microsoft).

Wait, are you now saying companies are idiotic for not extending warranty coverage to modded hardware?

Yeah, successfull doen't mean there the best. Ford Focus's are a top seller, but they still suck ass. Porches and Ferraris are kick ass cars and don't sell very many, but that doesn't make them less valuable then the pintos and station wagons.

What, are you a NeoGeo fan, or something? Hey, don't get me wrong, I am not a big playstation fan, but what the fuck does the quality of the console have to do with the impact of modchipping? They sold the most units, they had the most games and the only way modchipping would hurt is if developers refused to write software--instead developer support for sony systems was and is incredible.

It has NOTHING to do with LINUX. Absolutely NOTHING.

You offered no reason why it has nothing to do with Linux, and I offered a whole lot why it has nothing to do with stealing games (how many consumers do you think go at their hardware with a soldering iron?) I'm not saying Linux on xbox would REALLY hurt Microsoft, but just listen to Ballmer--those guys REALLY HATE LINUX. I mean, think--we Slashdot people get all upset about it when most of us are browsing here with Explorer. Imagine how much more pissed you'd be if it was your JOB. Imagine if some long-haired hippies called you a thief as they tried to limit your ability to put food on your families table (from their perspective). They can't stand having the enemy's flag on their flagship, ever.

Whatever, tell that to sony when you copy their dvd's, tell that to the RIAA when your trading pirated MP3's.. Just because you "CAN" doesn't mean microsoft should let it slide. You can own a gun, but they're not meant to shoot people. Do you think owning a gun means you can do anything you want with it? Does owning your dvd mean you can now sell copies of it because you can?

Obviously, intellectual property and firearms are special cases--there are special LAWS (chosen by the GOVERNMENT, not the manufactuer) restricting my usage of those things.

Does owning your dvd player mean you can modify it to play other region dvd's and copied movies? Hardware, like a video game console, like a dvd player, is MINE. Only the government restricts my use of it. I apologize for calling you an idiot when I screwed up so badly regarding the Dreamcast, but lets just say greater thought would have saved you from a few mistakes you've posted today.

Why would they want to allow you to change the way there product operates when you choose to mod the thing and electricute yourself or break the thing in the process?

Holy disingenuous, Batman! Yeah, THAT's why they shutdown Lik-Sang, to prevent electrocutions they would in no way every be held responsible for. Better make all electrical tools illegal for non-engineers!

Re:Hate console makers (in a way)

[dstone]

OK, but what's your point?

I believe my point was explained in my first sentence. In case it wasn't clear, I'll repeat it: MS hates the idea of any legal or illegal chip, and they're simply lucky that there's allegedly stolen code on this chip. If there was no stolen code, they'd still hate the chip yet they wouldn't have as much legal ground to shut down Lik Sang.

90% of the people who buy it are going to use it to steal more data. Just because it can be used to install linux on the xbox doesn't mean that that's what people are going to use it for. ... I would bet that most users with mod chips are just using them to steal games.

By your rationale, any hard drive over 10GB or so should be illegal and retailers and manufacturers associated with 60, 80, and 120GB+ drives should be shut down because 90% of them are using them to steal data. It's true, face it. MP3s and pirated software are what motivates the development and sale of big cheap IDE drives. To use your own wording: Why should software companies and recording artists tolerate the sale of cheap, massive hard drives?

Let me answer that for you: Because we're all innocent until proven guilty. Let me buy my ice pick, my barbed wire, my big hard disks, and my non-copyrighted mod chips so I can develop original X-Box apps in my fortified arctic fortess, unless you can prove otherwise. Okay?

Um hello...

[GoRK]

I'm sorry, but fuck Michrosoft's whiny bitch ass with a big rubber mickey mouse dick. This is just out of line.

If you read my past comments you'll see I don't usually flame, but this is ridiculous.

Mod me up, scotty.

I mean, Jesus...

Re:Um hello...

[GoRK]

Seriously.

I am replying to myself because I'm so pissed off.

I can't even post an intelligent argument because I'm so pissed off.

Lik Sang is a good company and they are always nice to do business with.

Microshaft is not.

Fuck those guys. I'm going home.

Re:As a general rule

[DarkZero]

Dumping and price fixing are often illegal. I doubt they're being sold at a loss considering the legal problems they could expose themselves to. Maybe they are being sold at cost.

Every financial article ever written on the gaming industry in the last year, whether it's from Bloomberg, the Financial Times, the Economist, or just the business section of your local newspaper, disagrees with you. Microsoft loses approximately $100-$150 on each sale now. It might have gone down to $80 since their new modifications to the hardware.

Re:As a general rule

[DarkZero]

As a software developer, I respect their ability to own their software, no matter what form it may take.

I guess that also includes the form of "Bought by a user that wants to use it in a perfectly legal way". They may own their software, but I own it after I've bought it and should be allowed to exercise my legal rights over it. Unfortunately, the MHOL (Microsoft Horde of Lawyers), a larger and stronger body of "law" enforcement than the US Department of Justice or the entire governments of many smaller countries, disagrees.

Re:As a general rule

[iapetus]

The fact that this post was modded up shows how zealous and unthinking so many people on this site are. :b

I can't remember the last console that needed to be modded in order to apply cheats. Action Replay and similar titles have been available for consoles for many generations now. There's already one out for the PS2, and one ready for release on GC. It's this sort of program MS needs to target to avoid online cheating, not the modchip manufacturers.

Well, that and encourage development practices that make it harder to cheat in this way...

Re:As a general rule

[evbergen]

What Bill or anyone else *likes* to do or to get is not an argument in evaluating the rights and wrongs of such issues.

If business models such as this are only possible by having people rent the boxes instead of *own* them, then that should be done instead of leading people to believe they have *bought* something.

After all, the US regards ownership of property as the highest goal for humanity? It does make you wonder though who's in charge if the latest laws are more concerned about ownership by some cartels than ownership by the people.

Re:How could anyone not expect this to happen?

[evbergen]

I can also understand why, in the case of handguns, in many countries the technology to commit the crime is regulated instead of just the crime itself; a single misaimed gunshot causes irrepairable damage to human life. They are extremely dangerous devices, so I can see why a democratic government would choose to regulate trafficking of guns, even before any crime has been committed with them.

Copying on the other hand causes no damage by itself, regardless of what's being copied. Only *distribution* of copied things causes *economic* damage. So why a democratic government would want to prohibit a means (unrestricted digital technology) to a prerequisite (copying data) to the actual *economic* crime (mass-distributing copies), while it does not want to regulate guns, based on the argument 'we only go after the crime itself', is completely, totally, utterly beyond me.

Unless, of course, this 'democratic' government cares more for money than for human life. It sure is telling about its priorities, in any case.

Read It Again, All of IT

[reallocate]

You did see this part, didn't you: "Seen from Microsoft's viewpoint (with which I am not concurring)...

I neither defended nor agreed with MS. I simply presented one possible explanation of their behavior. Although, perhaps, stating something in clear, direct lanaguage, prefaced by an explicit disclaimer, is a literary construction beyond your range.

Sure, you own your little box. If you want to build a chip and stick it in there, I doubt MS will come after you. After all, they went after a company, not individual owners.

Next time, try r-e-a-d-i-n-g a post before you jump to the wrong conclusion.

Re:As a general rule

[ameoba]

[blockquote]
Think of it as Palladium v0.9.
[/blockquote]

Yes, and the first step towards Microsoft requiring systems to ONLY run 'authorized' operating systems. I can easily see this leading to a point, akin to 'motorheads' disliking any car made after the late 70s (where all the onboard computers severely limited the ammoun of maintenance yourself without purchasing expensive diagnostic equipment) where us 'geeks' collect and maintain hardware that's increasingly outdated in order to keep our freedoms.

great fun.

George Carlin

[Quila]

I think you are using a warped version of a George Carlin bit: "Fuck Mickey Mouse. Fuck him with a big rubber dick!"

Commercial ecology

[Chris Canfield]

Anti-microsoft sentiments you may find on this board aside, this is exactly the sort of behavior we have seen from the company in the past and exactly the sort of behavior we shouldn't encourage.

Lik Sang didn't just sell mod chips. You can get those at modchips.com Lik Sang is the only place you can go to find all sorts of mods and tools for your systems. For example, their GBA section contained the Afterburner internal lighting kit, a kit to splice the display to a television, re-writable roms to run homebrew games, and a host of other attachments / gizmos. Lik Sang was an irreplacable tool for the hardcore gamer who loves hardware, or the home coder trying to break into the business. Lik Sang will be sorely missed. And now Lik Sang is gone.

I had this discussion with a co-worker earlier in the week. He argued that a system should be evaluated on its merits. This is very true, and the XBox is a very powerful system with some fun games. However, one cannot discount the actions of any item's parent company when making a purchasing decision, but especially if said parent company has been bad for the ecology of the business fields it enters. This "crackdown" is a huge one for the hardcore gamer, even if it may seem like nothing to those who buy their supplies at Wallmart.

Microsoft's business plan so far has been

1. Buy up big name developers at an unheard of pace (Bungee, Oddworld, Rare...)
2. Buy exclusives from companies that can't be outright bought (The Matrix...)
3. Try to shut down anyone doing anything we don't approve of (Chippers, XLinux...)

All of the above make it clear that Microsoft is trying to limit competition as much as possible, in order to ... what is the word?... Ah yes, monopolize the market. Competition between companies have spawned Sonic the Hedgehog, Tekken, Unreal, and a host of others. The only other monopoly platform in history has been the Game Boy, and we saw how long THAT stagnated until development was spurred on by... competition (WonderSwan and NeoGeoPocket).

Microsoft enters a new market, spreds it's tendrils killing off all of the diversity, and remains nasty and impossible to get rid of. That's not prejudice, that's history. Please remind your friends and associates that it remains a bad personal and business decision to give money to Microsoft, the RIAA, the MPAA, Scientologists, or any other group trying to limit choice or freedoms.

-C

Re:You are a liar --- see a few posts up

[N3WBI3]

What the hell are you talking about.

I back up everything I own, however backing up a PS2 game then requires me to use a mod chip to play the backup (I never use the origional).

Huh. Leasing.

[Featureless]

Actually, I think you've got a really good idea there.

I wouldn't be surprised if we see that happening in a few years.

the DMCA

[raygundan]

I'm no lawyer. But it seems that a modchip that allowed you to boot linux, but that didn't break the security on games would still be good even under the DMCA. The purpose does matter to some degree with the DMCA-- I don't believe it applies at all until you start giving yourself access to copyrighted works you're not supposed to.