First Kramnik vs DeepFritz, In Progress

An anonymous reader writes "Reigning world chess champion Vladimir Kramnik played the first match in a series of eight against the world's strongest chess computer. 'After the game Vladimir Kramnik said that he was never worried about losing the typical Berlin endgame that arose in his first game against Deep Fritz. The World Champion is the master of this line and Fritz was unable to take advantage of the white pieces.' There is live coverage of the event at the main website." We've mentioned this match a few times before.

Comments

No longer in progress: Draw

[Phouk]

"Kramnik was never worried about losing..." out of context is a bit misleading: Kramnik didn't win either, it was just a draw.

(For those who don't read the articles... ;) )

Re:No longer in progress: Draw

[Mr. PJR]

There's a saying among chess grandmasters--"Draw with black, win with white."

Anyway, I have a copy of Deep Fritz--the same program Kramnik is playing against. It's a comercially available chess program, designed to run on multiple processor computers. If you have a spare 90USD lying around, pick up a copy. It's a brutally strong program. You can buy it here: http://icdchess.com/cgi-bin/store.cgi (I have no affiliation with ICDchess, other than as a satisfied customer)

Re:No longer in progress: Draw

[Mr. PJR]

Would someone please elaborate on this? I have seen this in other comments and do not understand the reasoning

When playing the black pieces you have a disadvantage because black always moves second. Basically, the player of the white pieces has a one-tempo advantage and can to some extent determine the shape of the game (by choosing which variation of the opening will be played). Strong chess players can take advantage of the first move advantage when playing white by forcing black to defend or play an opening which the black player isn't strong at.

With these disadvantages, black's behavior is usually to hold on and try to draw. Then to try and win when he has the white pieces (because the players alternate colors).

Kasparov lost...

[Ulumuri]

Because of unfair playing conditions, and also because he didn't have access to DB before the match. Therefore, matches between Kramnik and Fritz will take place every other day, be adjourned after 60 moves, and Fritz will not be reprogrammed between matches.

Currently, opinion is siding with Kramnik. GMs Nigel Short and Raymond Keene predict a Kramnik win.

The game went as follows:

Deep Fritz(2807) - Kramnik,V [C67]
Brains in Bahrain Man-Machine Match. Manama (1), 04.10.2002
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Nf6 4.0-0 Nxe4 5.d4 Nd6 6.Bxc6 dxc6 7.dxe5 Nf5 8.Qxd8+ Kxd8 9.Nc3 h6 10.b3 Ke8 11.Bb2 Be7 12.Rad1 a5 13.a4 h5 14.Ne2 Be6 15.c4 Rd8 16.h3 b6 17.Nfd4 Nxd4 18.Nxd4 c5 19.Nxe6 fxe6 20.Rxd8+ Kxd8 21.Bc1 Kc8 22.Rd1 Rd8 23.Rxd8+ Kxd8 24.g4 g6 25.h4 hxg4 26.Bg5 Bxg5 27.hxg5 Ke8 28.Kg2 ½-½

Re:Kasparov lost...

[damiam]

Deep Blue was fed all of Kasparov's previous games, so it knew exactly what to expect and how to optimize its strategy. Kasparov had never seen a game played by Deep Blue. It's common among grandmasters to review that past games of your opponent to look for their weeknesses. Kasparov didn't have this chance, which put him at a disadvantage.

Re:Kramnick will win it

[Mr. PJR]

Don't expect a computer to ever win a blitz match, because computer's just don't have the insight to play well in those circumstances, which is where human innovation shows through.

I have to utterly disagree with this statement. Blitz games are quick games, such as a time limit of 5 minutes per side per game Blitz games are where computers are strongest, where their tactical ability, coolness under pressure, and lack of obvious mistakes shine through.

In quicker games, even weaker chess programs can anihilate strong human grandmasters. It's the longer games where humans are able to hold their own.

Live coverage.....

[jimson]

An in related news, live play-by-play coverage of paint drying!

I dont' have time now,

[3-State Bit]

but one thing I rememer hearing much about karpov, back when kasparov was beaten, was that he, though not world champion, would have made a more interesting match against computerland, because of the fact that he focuses less on tactics (trying to out-think the computer by looking at combinations into more moves ahead) and more on abstract, pattern-based (such as in go) strategy, at which computers suck. Kasparov proved (insofar as you believe playing conditions were fair) that computers can out tacticate people, but perhaps a person whose style leans more toward abstract strategizing ("I want to keep this column open, because I feel it will be very important later" versus "I want to force the computer to lose that pawn, because I think I can pull off a combination in 43 moves")

i do need to go, but here are some things for children of this post to do:
o Look up some original reference (I saw many, many) that talked about how Kasparov's playing style is perhaps less suited to showcasing humanity's superiority to computers than Karpov's was)
o Look up whether Kramnik most resembles Karpov's or Kasparov's style.

One last thing.
Is it still true that in Go, computers play with a 14-move advantage and still lose to people who aren't even world-champion? Go is a game in which, because at each point in the game, it is unclear what groups of stones are alive and what are dead, pattern-based thinking is much more important. Would Karpov (and perhaps Kramnik) have made a better Go player than chess player?

When I come back, I'll add more to the thread, to anyone who wishes to discuss it.

Re:I dont' have time now,

[Scarblac]

i do need to go, but here are some things for children of this post to do:
I'm not a child of your post, but I'm a drunk chess player.

Look up some refernece that talked about how Kasparov's playing style is perhaps less suited to showcasing humanity's superioty to computers than Karpovs's was.
Kasparov is lethal when he has the initiative. He wants complex, tactical, attacking positions, and he's better at them than any human. Unfortunately, these positions tend to depend on calculation, which is what computers shine at. Karpov, like Kramnik, is more about prophylaxis, which is preventing any active options the opponent may have.

Although it must be said that at top level, all these players have a universal style. You can't become the world top player with a purely positional or a purely tactical style. Give Karpov a position that calls for a tactical solution, he's likely to play it. Put Kasparov in a quiet, strategical position, he'll usually know exactly what to do.

The differences show, mostly, in the choice of openings. They like different setups. Karpov choses the Caro-Kann (1.e4 c6) vs 1.e4, which is a very positional, defensive opening. Kasparov goes for the throat with the sharpest lines of the Sicilian (1.e4 c5). [if you're not a serious chess player, please believe me, that one square further makes a huge difference].

Kramnik plays the Berlin (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Nf6). An opening that gives White a positional advantage - just not enough of an advantage to win. It typically leads to an endgame that's better for White, though, in the hands of grandmasters, not yet winning. And he knows it well. There's no way a computer will understand all the subtleties in these quiet positions, Fritz isn't going to beat him here.

On the other hand, Kasparov actually lost to Judit Polgar, the world's highest rated woman, in the recent Russia vs Rest of the World match. Kasparov had a huge plus score vs Polgar beforehand, but he was tired, thought he could get an easy draw in that line just like Kramnik does. But he couldn't (a report of the match, including comments on the Polgar-Kasparov game, is at Chess Cafe). He just doesn't have the feeling for defending those worse, yet not yet losing, passive positions.

So the difference in style in small, but it's certainly there. And Kramnik's is much better against computers.

Re:I dont' have time now,

[legLess]

Blockquothe the poster:

Is it still true that in Go, computers play with a 14-move advantage and still lose to people who aren't even world-champion?

Oh, yes. Computers go programs are not serious opposition for anyone other than a weak to mid-level amateur. Here's a quick run-down of the go handicap system, for those not in the know: for each point of rank, or strength, difference in the players one stone of the weaker player's is placed on the board in a a predetermined position. Rank goes from 50 kyu (can't spell "go") through 1 kyu to 1 dan, then to 9 dan, then 1 dan to 9 dan professional. Thus a 5 kyu would give a 15 kyu a 10-stone handicap, and in theory, a 9 dan professional could give 68 (20% of the board) stones to someone who'd never played the game - and still win.

So when the poster says "14-move advantage" he means "14-stone handicap," which is huge. It's worse than that, though. A couple years ago, a dan-level player (a woman, not that it matters) beat the current computer go champion after giving it 27 stones. I can't find a bloody link right now, so you'll have to take my word for it.

Go is a game in which, because at each point in the game, it is unclear what groups of stones are alive and what are dead, pattern-based thinking is much more important.

Go is all about pattern recognition. The game is huge - easily the most complex game that people have created (where "life" is not defined as a game :). The board is 19x19 - 361 places to play - and all the stones have equal value. It's not possible for a computer to look 1% as far ahead in go as in chess.

Would Karpov (and perhaps Kramnik) have made a better Go player than chess player?

Who can say? They're very, very different games. I've played go for years, and every now and then I play chess with my brother. It feels very cramped, legalized, and formal. Go flows like a river.

Gah!

[CyberDruid]

I am totally serious when I say that slashdot needs a "-1 wrong" or "-1 factual error".

• True - Kramnik is a staunch defender.
• Computers are not big on taking risks to begin with (they hardly ever sacrifice material for instance) and they don't really "play for a win", but if the operators wanted it to play more drawish, that would not be a problem, provided that they are allowed to adjust some positional parameters.
• A 5 min game would be extremely difficult for Kramnik. Quick games are basically just about calculating tactics, since the deeper aspects become hidden behind both sides poor play. A human excels in stuff like planning and sometimes logical reasoning, which both takes some time to do. It is a well known fact that computers don't improve their play much when given longer time (programmers will recognize this problem as "the exponential wall").

On a side note: In this game Kramnik drew easily because he could do some logical reasoning that no computer has ever done. He understood that in the final position, the computer could manoeuver around as much as it damn well pleased, there were simply no legal moves that could ever threaten anything. A computer will have great difficulty understanding this, since the calculation of variations will not show this simple visual fact.

In my opinion Deep Fritz will never beat Kramnik in a Berlin Defence. The team could try to deviate earlier, perhaps by closing the position with 4.d3, but this will also be easy play for Kramnik. They could also skip the Ruy Lopez altogether and play 3.Bc4 (Italian) or 2.f4 (King's gambit) instead, but these moves are not so common among the extreme elite. Kramnik would probably equalize comfortably against these moves. IMHO the team should try either switching to 1.d4 (at least for one game, to see where it leads) or just try to head for equal but tactically complicated positions after the King's gambit or the Italian, mentioned above. Playing 1.c4 or 1.Nf3 would probably be unwise. Kramnik knows these waters extremely well and could probably easily steer the game to a dull and totally safe position.

My money is on Kramnik, he will probably not lose a single game.