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Deciding On The Future of Linux
A reader writes: The Free Standards Group has posted a request for feedback, now that they have completed LSB 1.2 and li18nux is also finished. Where should they/we go next? "
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It's all about drivers and compatibility with those gadgets...
:)
For example, the reason I'm running Windows now is because I can't get my darn Palm m515 to work in Linux, and I don't even know where to start looking for help with my Minidisc Player...
So it's all about compatibility with those gadgets in my book
Alan Cox is illusively quoted as saying, "The community is great for getting the work done, but when it comes to making decisions about where Linux is going, that responsibility should entirely rest on the shoulders of Linus. It's his operating system, and we shouldn't be able to take that away."
I want to agree with that quote. The guys programming Linux and the kernel and so forth are all hard workers and decide to where it's going.
I can't see why the FSF is trying to become the new Linux authority. First they've tried to claim that much of Linux was written by GNU, this is not true, I put to you, they tried changing Linux to GNU/Linux. Notice that GNU is placed before the word Linux, this implies a strong bias towards the former entity.
Linux was named after Linus Torvalds and he is the monkey at the top of the pole, NOT the FSF. If anyone wants to ask where Linux should be headed, it should be him and not the FSF who are simply angling for bonus points in the petty argument.
mogorific carpentry experiments
Did they just ask "where do you want to go today?"
What should they standardize next? Copy/Cut&Paste! It is one of the most important features of a modern desktop OS.
On vacation.
Stop worrying about the risks of nuclear power and start worrying about the risks of not using nuclear power.
If these folks were real coders instead of marketroids trying to jump into the Linux bandwagon, they'd know that the LSB acronym is already taken. Sorry folks but LSB will always mean "Least Significant Bit".
I currently use Windows for ease of use. With it, you can specify what programs you want to handle certain types of files, and the operating system remembers your choices. This greatly aides with the multi-media functions of my home computer. The last time I tried linux on my desktop, that was the one thing that annoyed me the most about the OS in general. There seems to be no standard way for users to specify what programs they want to use for certain file types, which would in my opinion greatly increase user productivity and decrease user frustration when using Linux on the dekstop.
Well, I had a bunch of ideas and then I read wackybrit's comments, and, uh, I agree with those comments. So now I'm stuck wondering if I should suggest anything at all. Since I'm already here....
A common clipboard, for copy and paste, would be wonderful. If I copy text from Konq and want to paste it into Pan, that should work every time. I note SuSE appears to have done some work here -- sometimes I can copy & paste in SuSE just fine, while other distros are not so fine. Another thing that would be great: common menu system. In fact, it would be great if the menu system was actually just a directory on disk with some subdirectories in it, each populated with links to various apps. That way, if a Window Manager or desktop tool didn't want to offer a menu system, you might still be able to navigate it. If that were in common for all or even many of the WMs out there (KDE, xfce, Gnome, IceWM, and so on), that would make things far easier. Note that I'm not suggesting that Red Hat be copied and KDE apps be pulled out of the menus -- populate the menus with hundreds of apps if you wish. Just get it in a standard format. Finally, common desktop icons (again, not that there have to be specific apps that must be there, just that if I create a link to Galeon on my desktop, it'd be swell if it appeared in KDE and Gnome (and other) desktops.
These may be in LSB 1.2 -- I've got the page up now & I'm surfing through it, but you guys are slashdotting it a little, so it's slow going....
My Greasemonkey scripts for Digg &
Till now we have seen this on games. However I know lots of situations where I would prefer a 3D interface rather than this archaic 2D windowish (X, Windows, OS/2, Mac OS - no matter) world.
/var/log and you may see a lot of interest moments where it would be easier to deal with this mastodon in a 3D space.
One of the main situations would be on working with large multidimensional data. Think this is too far from you. Take
We already have 3Dwm. But it looks like a little forgotten puppy in the middle of nowhere. Probably because no one created a standard in the same way X was created. How to fit legacy apps or even the command line in the new world? How people will create new apps for 3D if there is no largely accepted standard? Frankly these are issues I think one should think about. Maybe all this is still a bit futuristic, but the time has come for 3D to get more serious. In the place where we work we are already developing a 3D tool for some highly popular program because no one can hold the information that comes in flat relational tables. When one comes up to 2Gb of information a day, information just seem to blow up in front of your eyes.
Besides, I dream to see a 3D penguin behind the flat surface of Windows...
There are already organizations that are determining the direction of Linux. Some are for profit, some are volunteer efforts only (at the moment).
Those organizations are commonly called the distributions.
For example:
Mandrake
RedHat
Gentoo
etc
etc
etc
The distro rollers can do anything they darn please and often do. This gives us variety -- and when a certain distro is liked well enough, de facto standards as well.
Think about it: Say the FSF was in charge of the "future direction." What would happen? A whole lot of folks would be POed about whatever that direction was, splinter off, and then we'd be in exactly the same situation we are right now and NO ONE could do anything to change it because of the nature of the GNU license.
Sure, sometimes Microsoft style control gets things done more quickly and efficiently -- and often result in the emergence of features and instantaneous standards that might not otherwise appear. But at what cost?
Dictatorships are the most efficient forms of governance known. Most folks would probably prefer not to live under them though.
Freedom is sloppy.
I agree completely. Applications shouldn't need to install any libraries at all. And I won't stand for the half-assed hack that would result either, where coders roll library functionality into the app itself, bloating it's size.
God-fucking-dammit, isn't it about time we had magical depenencies? Where the computer uses it's psychic abilities to create this depenency code on the fly, pulling it out of its ass or something? It's ridiculous, when you think about it. Who ever in their right mind has ever walked up to you and said "you know, to run Word, you need windows and a fuckload of DLLs already loaded and running!" It just doesn't happen, my friends. Why, because Windows already has Micro$oft Magical Library Generator XP, which creates them on the fly. And sure, if sometimes it is just random code that locks the CPU, isn't it worth it?
Damn, sarcastic mode is exhausting. BTW, mgkmsal2, you're one of the biggest slashtards I've ever seen here. Ever play with windows, and have it go spastic, wanting to know which version of the DLL you'll keep? Every operating system has this problem. If you don't like it, don't install software. Wanting your cake and eating it too, makes for really lame whining...
I know this will be modded as a troll... But how about getting all the Linux distributions to actually use it before considering the standard "finished".
Of course, there might still be a need for inter-program dependencies (for example, perl programs tend to work best when perl is installed) but in the interest of eliminating dependencies it's probably best to hide the fact from the user. The "command not found" messages that result in situations like that will undoubtedly alert the user to the fact that he or she should probably find and install the appropriate other package(s).
Duh. Apt and/or a Gentoo ports-like system are the answer to this type of problem. The security and flexibility edge goes to gentoo, for the USE variable - it allows me to not build (for example) PCRE support into Postfix if I don't want to install and depend on PCRE. Apt is easier and faster. Both are nice solutions to a common problem. As another example, Microsoft admins all seem to like the new Windows Update feature, for the exact same reasons we've all loved apt, ports, and gentoo for years - automatic updating of everything that needs updating with dependency resolution. Of course, our solutions are better because we don't force license-changing upgrades on users, but that's not a technical issue at all. For the time being, this type of solution is the best available for a problem faced by ALL computer administrators.
which are:
Unified System Documentation I want all docs in a single, standard format that all programs must write their basic documentation in. No more man, info, html, pdf, ps or whatnot. I'd prefer a fixed SGML DTD (docbook is OK, but I'd prefer a designed-from scratch one specifically to address the system documentation target). That way, we can can get good viewer independence with modern features (hyperlinks, fonts, in-line graphics). All of the current formats are lacking in at least two areas, and we don't have agreement on which to use. This is a big place for them to step up.
Standard Config Files No, this is not a request for a Registry (the merits thereof are for another discussion). What we want here is to get rid of the 80 billion different ways to write a config file. I'm sorry, but they all should be a nicely tagged XML (or similar) file nowdays. It sucks to have to figure out the idiosyncrasies of the various config files. This issue isn't simple, but is definitely a place where a good discussion is needed.
-Erik
There are always four sides to every story: your side, their side, the truth, and what really happened.
I always interpreted GNU/Linux as "GNU environment running over the Linux kernel". It seems that 90% of the users care for the front-end tools (such as their $EDITOR - vim or emacs or whatever, their shell - like bash, etc.) Most of this is GNU, so I think the FSF does have a point about the GNU/Linux name. I even say "GNU/Linux" myself in the context of discussions dealing with the end-user environment.
OTOH, as far as I read into the FSF docs on the "GNU/Linux" issue, they're *so* nerdy in the worse sense of the word and so much repeating themselves along the lines, that I perfectly understand the frustration of people like you who don't have the patience of hearing the rational points behind all the major rant.
VKh
This is solely designed to make things easier for third party app developers, since they know what they need to target. No distro is forced to follow the LSB, but if they want the maximum number of third party apps to run, then they will follow it, and get LSB certified.
Apart from this minimal framework, distro's are still free to do what they like. And since the FSG is not tied to any particular distro, they're not likely to favour one distribution over another.
To call that dictatorship is ridiculous, you might as well accuse the w3c of dictating all content on the internet, since they set the html standards.
Others seem to want to turn linux into windows. If only (mime support/windows like shell/c:\Program Files like dir structure) was finally included I would start using it. Yeah right like anyone cares. I think that with the burst of the internet bubble the idea that linux should go to the masses has been left behind. If you saw the interview with Linus himself on the BBC you will have heard that he does noet even wish to compete with windows. MS has its market and linux has its own. That is real freedom of choice people. Those people that want linux to become like windows just want a gratis (not free) version of windows.
The FSG is a standards group, I presume therefore that their question is on what if anything needs standarization next. Standarization is not the enemy of freedom when standarizing on it does not put a brake on innovation. A standard desktop for instance would limit innovation and therefore choice. A standard directory layout does not unless I missed some special signifigance in keeping youre logs in /.[sic]
So what needs standarizing next? I have no idea. Software creators now are reasonably sure where to install the bits of their software and how they can achieve multi language support. Printing is also ridicously easy (could be because I only have access to HP printers). Is anything more needed, almost certainly, let the creators figure this out and not disturb them with a dozen wish lists by windows users who will never switch over because it will always be hard to switch to something wich is different. If it wasn't different then what would be the point of switching at all.
Use linux not because someone tells you to. Use linux not because you want to stick it to Gates. Use linux not because you want to be l33t.
Use linux because you like it strenghts and can forgive its weaknesses.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Even though /usr, /var, /tmp, /etc are ridiculously cryptic, changing them would be horrible?
/etc to /settings or /config /var/log to /logs /var to /data (or something like it) /tmp to /temp (saving one character? sheesh!) /usr to /programs /bin to /system_programs
/etc may have difficulty configuring their box to be sure. But they'll have less difficulty if the directory is named /configuration or /settings won't they? The operating system shouldn't be some kind of high bar or IQ test. It should be a tool to get a job done. /etc to /settings doesn't make your life and my life appreciably harder and it makes life for newbies that much easier.
/etc less oddball than /settings? What universe do you live in? The directory name "etc" is an artifact of history, not a brilliant design plan. 1K of memory was expensive so the directory names were kept as short as possible. Now 1K is a rounding error. The reasons for "etc" no longer exist today. You might as well tell me that people should still hone their PDP-11 assembly skills before doing any programming in a high-level language.
/etc. Good for you. After the rest of the world moves on, you can make your symbolic links. The rest of the world -- this includes all of those folks who accurately regard a computer and operating system as merely tools -- is used to descriptive names. /etc ain't descriptive. It's the UNIX club's code word for /settings. They like code words. It's like a secret handshake. It maintains a feeling of superiority however obviously false that feeling may be.
Get this:
Change
Change
Change
Change
Change
Change
and then (drumroll) make symbolic links so that old scripts and programs still work. You leave that in place for a couple of years, and then you remove the symbolic links. All that's left are logical names that actually convey information. And before people complain about the amount of extra typing, please tell me that you know how to use <tab> for filename completion (se<tab> gets you settings for example).
Users who can't remember that config files live in
And how, by any stretch of the imagination, is
You're used to
- I don't need to go outside, my CRT tan'll do me just fine.
Read this:o ards.tx t
http://www.freedesktop.org/standards/clipb
GTK+ supports it since 1.2. QT supports it properly since 3.0. Mozilla supports it properly for as long as I can remember.
This is something we need ... yesterday. An XML (or whatever SGML they choose) office format standard. I know there is
work in progress from the Open Office Project, but I would rather have this work merged in a standard dictated by the Free Standards group. That alone would represent a HUGE step forward. Let's hope.