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Canadian Bill C-234 to Require ISP licensing
Matthew Skala writes "In Monday's House of Commons proceedings, Canadian Member of Parliament Peter Stoffer (NDP member for Sackville-Musquodoboit Valley-Eastern Shore) introduced Bill C-234, an anti-child-pornography Bill. It requires all Internet Service Providers to get licenses from the Government, specifically including non-profits and individuals. Licensed ISPs then must block Web sites named by the Government as containing child pornography, and must "report information [of the Government's choice] to the Commission for the purposes of this Act" - a requirement that neatly slips in spy-on-your-users requirements under the radar of the ongoing Industry Canada consultation on "Lawful Access" (wiretapping/CanCarnivore)."
First, they try to annex Frodo's hobbit-hole, then THIS!!!!!
"Oh, I hope he doesn't give us halyatchkies," said Heinrich.
I'm probably going to burn through some of my karma on this, but what the hell:
By itself licensing ISP's is not a bad idea. It is a pointless idea, but not bad. Now add in "You must censor whatever we tell you to" and were starting to talk trouble. Sure it just starts with kiddy p0rn, but then they will find something else they don't like and what do you know all we need to do now is add it to the list.
I'm not really all that fond of kiddy p0rn, but protecting children at the cost of liberty, in this case freedom of speech, is just too high a price to pay! Hmmm, I've heard this argument before somewhere - where could that be?
[End of diatribe. We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming...] - Larry Wall in Configure from the perl
It's going to be difficult for non-Canadians to understand what's going on here...
k ly /aa030902a.htmh tml
The NDP (of which Peter Stoffer is a member) is largely a rump party (holding only 13 seats of 301). So the amount of influence it has in Canadian politics at the moment is minimal beyond criticism.
Since the NDP does not hold power, this means that Mr Stoffer's bill is a private members bill. These very rarely become law. Often what happens is these bills go into commitees and don't come out.
I'd say the chances of this bill getting passed are about as good as Larry Ellison & Bill Gates becoming bosum buddies.
If you want to learn more about how the Canadian political system works, try these links:
http://frenchcaculture.miningco.com/library/wee
http://www.parlcent.ca/canada/mg.
Pointless is bad, when:
it costs tax money to enact and to enforce
it costs individuals and companies money to ensure they're in compliance
it gives lawyers something else to ligitigate about
it takes away government resources, like police time, from legitimate problems
Just figuring out what laws apply, and what taxes accrue, given the mammoth complexity of federal law (in any Western nation), requires anyone doing business to pay far too much to a lawyer and to an accountant.
Pointless costs money and time without producing any individual or societal good. Pointless is bad.
Opinions on the Twiddler2 hand-held keyboard?
Uhm, Ok, how come we have the DMCA, had Prohibition, and how come two 14 year olds were given the death penalty....in the US of A?
Hopefully, Canada isn't as idiotic as the US. I feel ashamed sometimes to be a citizen of the US....
Sig (appended to the end of comments you post, 120 chars)
But our Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms has the notwithstanding clause meaning the government can just say "notwithstanding" and violate any part of the charter they feel like it. Hence the language laws in Quebec, bill 101.
You can't have english only signs. All signs must be French (may contain english at half the size).
Also, immigrants must go to french schools, even americans (unless they make throw a fit through the local news, then they might get an exception, or they can go to a private english school).
Our rights are only our rights until the government feels decides to take it away. It's the law.
So under this bill if you want to be kept up to date with all the latest child pornography sites all you need to do is register as a canadian ISP and the government will keep you up to date with lists of sites.
I agree, pointless is bad, it cost's money, but it isn't nearly as bad as the loss of freedom. If you take my money (via taxes or any other such manner) I still have the freedom to complain, orgainize, and tell the world why I don't like your tax; however, when you take my freedom (in this case free speech) no ammount of money can buy it back.
So given the choice of waisting money or loosing freedom, I would pick waisting money. At least that way I could still have half a chance to fix the problem if I wanted to.
In this case the real fight is freedom of speech and not giving up just a little bit of it to "make the world safer for children". With any government this is just the start of taking away more and more of that freedom until it is completely worthless. As an added bonus I'm also against a waistful government agency.
[End of diatribe. We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming...] - Larry Wall in Configure from the perl
The problem is that once you require blocking at the backbone level, you're extending a single country's laws to the entire internet, which most people agree is a Bad Idea. What happens when laws collide? France and Germany have strong anti-Nazi laws; many other nations allow people to speak out as Nazis. Staying on the child pornography issue, some European nations allow nude modeling as young as 16, whereas the United States blocks most such photography for anyone under 18. Whose side does a backbone provider take in that case?
I still believe that backbone and other pure network providers should be left alone. They carry bits, and that's it. Any company that provides storage should be held unaccountable for their customers, unless and until it is brought to their attention and investigated (which should take all of a few minutes). If it's child porn or something else similarly illegal, they can shut down access, follow a procedure to provide copies of the data and any applicable logs for access to the proper authorities, and then their hands are washed of it. If they believe that a law is unjust, they can choose to fight it, but only in that case should they have any further involvement or liability.
You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
Look people, this Bill was introduced by a member of the NDP party. Anyone remember Preston Manning ? These guys are kind of like the government's pet cat.. they make up big fusses to try and gain attention, we pet their back and give them a (cash) treat, then they go back to sleep for a few months until the next federal elections roll around.
This is just a PR stunt for the NDP, so they can come back and say "Look at us, we tried to crack down on kiddie porn, and Jean Chretien's government turned us down. Liberal is evil! NDP is your friend!".
-Billco, Fnarg.com
I really doubt if this bill will actually become law for one simple reason: telecommunication giants like BCE (Bell Canada Enterprises) and Rogers Cable will lobby to have the bill killed, since a bill like this would make them legally and finacially liable for the actions of their subscribers. Both companies have enough problems keeping their networks stable---they don't also need the problems of trying to filter their users.
# it costs tax money to enact and to enforce
That is such a terrible point.
Coming from an abusive home, I have to say I am thankful for the taxes that went to my public defender, the taxes that paid for the childrens shelter, and the taxes that paid the judges salary. Now that i'm a somewhat well adjusted adult, I pay property tax on my house, income tax, all kinds of taxes. These kids that are being exploited on the internet need someone to look out for them, cause it sure as hell doesn't sound like you will.
Kids are human beings and our future, they're not some commodity that you can make that sort of statement on. Cattle, yes, kids no. Whoever gave you a mod point should be ashamed of themselves
These kids that are being exploited on the internet
Children are abused in people's homes.
I have to say I am thankful for the taxes that went to my public defender, the taxes that paid for the childrens shelter, and the taxes that paid the judges salary.
And your public defender, childrens shelter, and judge are not on the internet, and they are not ISP's. And the money spent on them is not wasted.
We could mandate that everyone have a radio locator beacon surgicaly implanted, I guess we should do it to protect the children.
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- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
# it costs tax money to enact and to enforce
That is such a terrible point.
Well, maybe it is a terrible point, but it's not mine. Or I should say, you missed my point.
I wasn't addressing the Canadian plan per se; I was addressing another poster's contention that pointless legislation isn't inherently bad, by explaining that any pointless legislation is bad, because it diverts resources from meaningful legislation.
I understand this is an emotional issue for you, but if you plan to contribute to the discussion, you need to read at least closely enough to discern the arguements being made.
Opinions on the Twiddler2 hand-held keyboard?
Martin, that's exactly what I think.
When I said backbone, I meant the national connection points, like Linx for example.
Oh and in case anyone non-techie was was wondering about the CP spam point, it's because the HTML email will use images stored on the CP [i.e. blocked] server, thus registering a connection attempt to that server.
One last thought about France, Germany and whoever else, having anti-nazi laws... In those countries, especially Germany, there is [I have heard] a sense of "national shame", for want of a better description, about the actions of the Nazis. I would have thought that this in itself would pretty much make anyone speaking out as or in support of Nazis social outcasts. A sort of social censorship, if you like. This is pretty much the case in America, where anyone who voices an opinion that goes against the general perception [read: What The News Corps And Government Say], even backed up by testimonies and evidence, such as John Pilger's documentry "Palestine Is Still The Issue", basically causes uproar among the GWB faithful plebs who believe what they see on the news. As one Canadian /.er roughly put it [I forget who, sorry] "I live near the border and get some of your TV channels. Is your TV state sponsored or something?" and that prretty much tells you what's going on. And his/her comment is hardly suprising.
As my .sig once said: "American freedom of speech: You can say what you want, just watch what you say."
Ali
Ph33r m3!!!
Canada does not and never has offered any constitutional right to freedom of speech. Just thought you might want to know.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
Internet porn is a effect, not a cause.
The reasons behind the fact the porn is available, and has a market, is what your prevention tax dollars should be spent on, not to search innocent people, 'just in case'.
Exploitation is bad, dont get me wrong, but using it as an excuse for a backdoor way to remove privacy for law abiding people in mass, is just as wrong.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
McGill passed up a college student, surprise surprise. Last time I checked you had to have a DEC to go to university.
Maybe some people understand that one's grammar on troll-infested messageboards is not even remotely the most important thing in the world. You are obviously not one of them. If it is your whim that I use a spell-checker before every post, you can piss off.