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What Software Do Cable Installers Place on Your PC?
{e}N0S asks: "The cable guy came over to install a cable modem at my Dad's house. As I watched him do his stuff I noticed he was installing something called Broadjump Client Foundation. I know you don't need software for a cable modem to work so I asked if it was necessary. He said he had to do his list of things, and we had to sign that he did his list of things, otherwise he couldn't leave it with us to use. Since I can always remove the software, I agreed, but I noticed while he was flipping through the install, he was clicking 'agree' on every EULA that came up. Doing a search on Google for 'Broadjump Client Foundation' comes up with some pretty scary stuff as far as what it does, like: 'Builds a database of subscriber demographics and buying behaviors to help evolve and refine marketing efforts.' Now, how does this affect us? Neither myself or anyone in my family agreed to the software; the cable guy did. And is there anyway to get cable companies to stop doing this as I can imagine since the cable company is a monopoly in this town, that the percentage of people who still have this software on their computers is pretty high."
Have a bogus PC or bogus windows installation for him to install junk on, which you can leave "unused" till you need to call support when you can boot into that partition if needed.
blog.sam.liddicott.com
This is why I always opt for the self-install option with any ISP. I don't even like my wife messing with my computer, nevermind some complete stranger.
:P)
(Side note: Yes, she does have her own computer. So there.
[PowerPoint] is a tool for capitalist presentation
Do you want theoretical advice or practical?
Theoretical:
If you feel you can't live with the restrictions or you and your machine, then drop the service and use something else.
Practical
Just wipe the stuff off the machine after the guy leaves.
You can only analyze this stuff so far.
You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you
What cable internet provider was this?
Slashdot's first reaction to VMware
I wonder if you could take them to small claims court to compensate you for the time you spent uninstalling the program?
Sure, it wouldn't amount to much money, but taking them to court would get their attention that people don't want that spyware stuff on their machines.
The nerve they have to install that spyware and not have the decency to even let their customer know. This is a severe abuse of your privacy.
Even better yet, I have DSL. It came as an self-install kit.
1) Plugged DSL modem into the telephone line
2) Plugged DSL modem into network hub
3) Connected filters to telephones
4) Threw install CD in the trash
I want my rights back. I was actually using them when our government stole them after 9/11.
While I realize you and your family never agreed to the software, you did authorize the installation of the modem. At best, it's a very gray legal area. The ISP and software manufacturer can both claim the tech was acting as a duly authorized agent (which he was) and you can validly claim that this software was never mentioned as being necessary and that it was sprung on you without prior notice, which would undoubtedly have affected your decision to purchase.
Unfortunately, he left with a valid signature, which legally means you have accepted the service as is, software and all. You may be able to remove the software, but at this point, all you can do is complain about it. But once you sign the sheet saying the work is done, you've essentially stated that the contract (or that portion thereof) has been fulfilled to your satisfaction. I know it's a hassle, but if you have serious misgivings about it, the proper procedure is to decline signature and say you never authorized this software installation, and allow the tech to remove the modem. Then deal with the sales department. If you paid by credit card, remember that you can put a hold on that payment until it is resolved to your satisfaction.
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Something cleverMaybe he agreed to it in the contract he signed, thus giving the installer permission to install every piece of software?
Maybe he wasn't necessary for the EULA's of this Broadjump kit.
I say inform your local newspaper or television news station. As you say, since the cable company is almost a monopoly in the area, I'll bet a number of people would love to know about how their local ISP is "spying" on them without them knowing. Most local news outlets are always looking for juicy stories about companies screwing over consumers.
AT&T Broadband in Richmond, VA installed that same shit on my computer. The tech was an asshole and I told him that I did not need software on my computer to connect through their lines, he got irate and told me that if i wanted to get online i had to have this software. I said kiss my ass, signed the papers and he left. I called AT&T and got a free month of service.
Just about all of my friends have that broadjump shit on their computer and willingly dont mind. Thats how the American public is, they dont care about privacy, all they want is thier cnn.com and marthastewart.com. They think that loss of privacy is what you give up when you go online.
Look at the millions of AOL users, who PAY, i repeat PAY, to be advertised to. They see like TV, the Ad's come with the territory.
I am sure most any Slashdot reader could remove the software or just go with a self-install kit. My parents, or a lot of my friends, could not. I think the issue here is that these people - ones who probably didn't watch/notice all the EULAs being clicked for them - are being monitored/tracked/whatever as if they had given their consent.
The installer has acted as their representative without their knowledge or consent. While the EULA would easily get tossed out if they wanted to fight it, they wouldn't know there was anything to fight and they would have already been monitores/etc already.
And yes, I know the ISP monitors traffic anyway, but it is different when they are installing software on your computer and agreeing to a EULA for you.
I got Charter Pipeline last year and I installed the software on my WinXP box. It put this hideous white and blue Charter branded skin on IE's buttons. While searching through the Broadjump directory to figure out how to remove the ugly skin, I found vnchooks.dll. I immediately wiped the system and reinstalled the OS. I then called Charter and told them that they are being paid for net access only and I never gave them the right to monitor my computer (there was no verbal or written statement given to me by the installer about the software). I was told that they use VNC to get system configuration in case I'm having trouble with my net connection. Umm, if I'm having trouble with my net connection, how am I supposed to get my computer to communicate my info to Charter's tech support? Idiots. The man then told me that since I have WinXP, that people can use Remote Desktop to communicate with my machine. I told the idiot that I knew about remote desktop and I have it disabled and at least Microsoft told you about the feature while installing the operating system.
In short, don't install cable modem software. Get an external cable modem, an ethernet card, and a Linksys router. That should be all you need.
But what about the mortals? 99% of this monopolistic company's customers have this crap installed on their computer, didn't ask for it, didn't agree to it, and don't even know it's there! Doesn't that strike you as wrong? Perhaps even evil? Laws are not keeping up with technology, and the inherent evil of capitalism is driving us into a dangerous situation. These companies justify their actions based just on maximizing profits for their shareholders. They don't care what petty moral problems this imposes.
With Verizon DSL, i can either connect with my gateway/router with PPPoE, or through a standard WinXP network connection. They sent a CD to use for setup, but I uninstalled their software and it works great otherwise.
Don't give these techs a hard time, they have to assume that you're a beginner and they probably need to install certain software by contract with some other software company (as a previous post supposed). We've all been support techs at some time in our lives. Just tell him you'd be happy to sign the agreement without him installing the software, and that way you both win as he can lower his average time-spent-per-incident rating.
$8.95/mo web hosting
What would he do then? I would tell him to hook up the cable, let me sign and then he can leave.
Maybe what you were signing said that you agreed to all of those EULA's that has clicked on your behalf?
I just had Charter Pipleline service installed and spent the weekend reconfiguring the network and setting up the router. The guy that came out was very cool about it and very knowledgeable. The only thing he needed to do to the machine was reconfigure the network settings so that they would work with the cable modem. Other than doing what he needed to, he didn't try anything funny or out of line. Some cable modems hook directly into the pc and may require a driver for the usb connection. Some providers want to put their browser on and/or reconfigure yours so that their page is your default home page.
Charter, while not everyone's favorite service, has been very cool about helping me reset my hosts file on the cable modem and trying to see my router to help me trouble shoot the system. Their official policy is that they don't support networks which makes you on your own if you have trouble. In practice I've found that if you know what you're doing and the techs aren't swamped at the time, they'll work with you and tell you what they're seeing from their end and give you some pointers. Just don't expect them to walk you through it.
Bottom line is that there really is no need to install anything other than maybe a driver for a usb connection to the cable modem. I'm not impressed that people that don't know any better are being taken advantage of by people like your provider. I can only hope that someone does that to their mom, dad, brother or sister sometime.
You must be the change you wish to see in the world - Ghandi
If they can't stay in business honestly, they don't deserve to be in business.
If they wish to collect demographic data on your purchases in return for a decrease in your bill, that's fine. But they should have a contract specificying how much that decrease will be, and exactly what the software will do. You can have it in your service contract all nice and above board, or choose NOT to have it and pay higher costs.
Of course, since they're a monopoly, that will just lead to a $50/mo (or more) difference. But that's easier to point a finger at and complain bitterly about to your local regulator.
Need a Python, C++, Unix, Linux develop
I think the public has a right to know about this sort of activity and I am glad slashdot posted it. Granted, it generates a certain amount of FUD but that is to be expected (it is slashdot).
Why should the cable companies need to start doing this sort of thing in order to make money? I'm sure there are better ways. How about offering decent service and some other products (such as spam filters) that we can pay additional for? Why do they have to be so sneaky? I feel sorry for the poor AOL converts that have no clue about what is being installed on their system- they are just innocent victims. They may not even know how to uninstall something- so they have no choice.
This kind of behavior is unethical, especially if the customer doesn't know what is going on. If privacy or high speed connection were mutually exclusive, I would choose privacy and I think a good percentage of others would also. It's bad enough with all the other crap that seems to fill up your hard drive when you're on the internet, we don't need the ISP doing it as well.
The way the guy explained it to me, there are dozens of people who dont want him touching their computer.
Then they cant figure it out (yeah, I know it's just turning on DHCP), and have to call him back to set it up.
If the original work order isn't signed - then there's no proof he ever showed up at all, and the cost of rolling the truck the second time comes outta his pay. If it is, then the customer pays for the second call like he should.
He really didn't care one way or the other, so long as the work order was signed.
No need to dump all the anti-corporate conspiracy theory bullshit on the poor joe who gets payed 10 bucks an hour to hookup peoples homes.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
just because a cable installer knows "A", doesn't mean he's familiar with "B".
i used to work at a phone company and the product managers there could talk to death about frame relay lines, phone switching equipment, etc, and they really knew what they were talking about. but they couldn't figure out how to log into their machines or how to change their password.
Free Webmail
"suddenly they can no longer use that information to defray some of the costs of running a broadband outfit."
First off, I notice you're assuming that they need this money to defray the cost of providing broadband. I suggest that any business using this model doesn't deserve to stay in business long.
Secondly, you seem to be someone who thinks we should all be very happy with the "opt-out list" mentality because we're somehow "saving money." Businesses need to be taught that abusing and not respecting their customers is a Bad Thing and I for one wouldn't mind paying a little more for a business that actually gives a damn about me (but I have yet to be forced into that decision... seems some enterprising business is always there to provide to us somewhere). And I have the feeling that I'm not alone in feeling this way.
"A better course of action would be to quietly uninstall everything the cable guy installed and keep it all under your hat."
You're part of the problem, then, not the solution. I'm simply not going to just sit there and take this sort of abuse from anybody.
Keep in mind that 99% of cable users don't read slashdot or tech forums in general. The posting here will only serve to inform those who can put the knowledge to good use and protect themselves. The resulting dent in the demographics databases as a result of this will be very small, and the cable companies probably will not bat an eye.
You can easly run your own DNS under linux.
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
Freedom by obscurity?!? Ya that's the ticket, we'll all go underground and that way we can practice our freedoms in secret with out the problems for governments or corporate cheiftons. Great plan there Chester.
Look, the cable companies enjoy their quasi-monopoly status and they seem quite happy to abuse their position, and with the law makers pockets lined well, they will have no worries. What worries me is the lack of FULL disclosure. If I'm going to be screwed in such a way, I think you should at LEAST know what's going on. I want a legal form that people read with glazed over eyes and initial parts to show them EXACTLY what information will be collected and used against them. However, as long as Michael "nepotisim" Powell is the chairman of the FCC to serve interests of the greatest donors and not the people, we might as well get used to saying, "Thank you sir! May I have another!"
Democrats and Republicans only disagree about how to enslave you
On a clear disk you can seek forever
Our techs install software for clients on a daily basis and I've often wondered whether it makes some difference who actually clicks to accept the EULAs. In our case we are not employees of the companies which actually bought this software, but are paid to install it by the purchasers. So what is *their* legal liability to a EULA if *I* click on "ok" to some incredibly stupid EULA? Who exactly is being put to a liability here (assuming a EULA actually incurs some liability at all, that is)?
I think that if a company needed to wriggle out from under an overly-restrictive EULA they could certainly use the defense: "None of our people clicked on that agreement... it was a contractor and he didn't have the authority to bind us to a legal contract."
No one ever had to evacuate a city because the solar panels broke!
I agree. We're always bitching at the poor telemarketing sales reps, when they're not the ones who set their hours, you know? It's not the installer's fault he's got this list from the main office.
If you use a little common sense and explain yourself rather than going ballistic, the installer's going to maybe be won over and give other people options, too, rather than "just doing his job." Alienate him, and he'll start thinking of his customers as a bunch of hassles to be gotten through. That's no good for anyone.
(Seems like cable installers really run a range of attitudes, though. Companies hire out during big install promotions, so you could be dealing with anyone.)
"Fundamentalism" isn't about divine morality. It's about human authority.
As explained to me, PPPoE requires more "overhead" per packet than plain Ethernet. That, in addition to the dial-up-like delay and inability to keep an IP address causes me to go right to the "little guy" ISP if at all possible. I frankly would prefer cable over DSL with PPPoE... It's all about squeezing every last dime from the customers.
The point is that most internet users don't even know what an IP is. They don't care about linux, and they probably aren't even aware that there could be software doing "bad things" on their PC. These users are having spyware forced upon them in two ways:
This is a serious problem. Let's actually discuss ways to resolve it for everyone, rather than trying to make ourselves look clever.
"Honda just started a thing where they put a GPS reciever/transmitter in your car. They track everywhere you go and how long you're there (when you're stopped).
Say you stop at AM/PM, they know that you are a user of Arco gasoline. Say you stop at a Michales craft store, they know that you are into crafts. Perhapse you stop at Costco - they could surmise that you have a large family.
This, along with the ability to record your conversations in the car are used to find out what your into, but its anonymous, of course. All that they use that information for is to customize advertisements on your car stereo just for you.
They also track who is in the car with you, because they is useful demographic information to help them with their targeted advertizing.
You don't have anything to hide, so that wouldn't bother you, would it?
So - are you wondering when you can get one of these new Hondas?
No?
Aunt Mary, just replace Honda with Microsoft and/or your Internet service provider.
You DO know that you've ALREADY agreed to this on your computer, right?"
This has worked for me 100% of the time. They get creeped out every time.
guns kill people like spoons make Rosie O'Donnell fat.
Depending on quite what you signed I'd say the Eula wasn't signed for you and didn't apply to you.
Possibly the cable installer has actually broken the Eula by transfering the software to someone else.
Eitherway you haven't agreed to not reverse-engineering the spyware. It would be nice then to keep sending them back reports on your computers activity that are completely bogus if enough people did this then all their data would be pretty worthless.
I'm sure most people dmake up names etc when they are asked to give out personal information (income gender age job etc) to get a service.
The general tactic is its even better to give wrong data than it is to refuse to give any at all. As this way you are invalidating anything other people are conned into giving.
It would not cost them a $50 support call to answer direct technical questions from experienced users if they would route questions properly based on their content. For example, if a user calls up, explains that he has changed network cards and asks to have the MAC entry changed in their database, it is not effective customer service to work through a thirty minute script only to end with an escalation to second line support when a direct bump to second line could have finished the call in one minute! (Example from my experience, obviously)
I once got in the middle of a thread on the MindSpring customer-service newsgroups and posted a suggestion that they institute an "experienced customer" line. The idea being you get certified through them that yes, you really know what you're doing (maybe by taking the same tests of proficiency that their employees take?) and after that you're given access to a support line staffed by people who don't insist on going through the "is it turned on?" parts of the script. Who talk to you as though you have a clue, in other words. Hell, they could not only make money on it by charging a token fee (maybe $5 per month), they could use it as a pool to recruit new tech folks.
Basically, phone centers need to program their script bots with something akin to keyword matching to determine when the caller is not going to be served by a cookbook of click heres and tab theres. In my experience, it is luck of the draw whether you get a first line rep who knows their stuff or is just following the script, and there are a lot of gradations between first and second line that could be subdivided more efficiently. Can it really be that cost ineffective to provide decent, non-irritating support to all levels of users, as opposed to just the clueless ones?
It's all about metrics. If you don't force the techs to follow the same script, you can't effectively compare their performance and weed out the ones that aren't making good numbers. (The fact that you can't do that short of actually listening in on a tech's calls from time to time, we'll ignore for now.) ISO 9000 can be a good thing in its place; likewise Six-Sigma. This kind of cookie-cutter tech support is the worst possible application of both, but management just sees a documented, reproducible process and finds it Good.
-- Old Man Kensey
RANT MODE!
I worked a short stint installing hsi back in the day, and I had to deal with smug pricks like the lot of you every goddamn day. Here's a few tips:
1. The installer doesn't give a fuck about how many computers you have.
2. The installer could care less about your 31337 Sun cluster or god damn Univac in the garage.
3. The installer gets really annoyed when self-righteous geek zealots make their jobs difficult.
"Hey, lets all guffaw at the college kid who can't figure out my ereet customized csh shell on my fucking VAX". Oh, wait, what's that? You want broadband? You're tired of dialup? Well then leave me alone and let me do my job, or next time do a self-install. Don't need a NIC? Tell me. Would rather configure the system yourself? Fine, tell me. I'm not out to cripple your machine, I am trying to get you connected to teh intarweb. The faster I get the hell out of your house, the faster I can get to the next unfortunate ex-AOL schmuck running WinME on an E-Machine whose hand I'll need to hold for three freaking hours because they can't figure out god damn Outlook Express.
Don't try to impress me with your gigabit switches or Cisco PIXes. I've seen it all and could care less. If I could have tied a cable modem to a brick with a length of cat5 and hurled it through some of your living room windows with a note reading "Self Install Kit", I would have.
Oh! Guess what else??
I'm a geek too. I run fourteen machines in my bedroom. Five FreeBSD servers, two Windows 2000 servers, two OpenBSD firewalls, a Sun box, and an array of Linux, W2K, and BSD workstations. I loved turning the tables on Slashdot-esque geeks who thought they could get a kick out of playing 'confuse the installer'. Some of my peers were even geekier, and have since moved on to real jobs maintaining the fat pipes companies like Comcast, AT&T, etc. rely on to move their bits.
Moral? Give the installers a break.
END RANT MODE
The problem is the "other" stuff that is bundled along with it. When spyware started to become bundled along with free downloads, roughly the same time that download.com got crap, it was accepted that they needed to generate revenue somehow. Basically the same reasons we tolerate ads on the net, TV and radio.
However, spyware has become endemic. Everything seems to have it. What I object to is the inclusion of spyware not for monetry reasons, like we are discussing here. What's more, putting aside the morality of hiding the spyware in the EULA (which is basically lying, your are trying to deceive someone), here we are talking about forced installations.
Sure, you don't have to accept the deal, but you've waited weeks for the taxi to come and take you away from 56k land, and the last thing you are going to do is say, "sorry, I'll get the next one". That's even if you are one of the enlightened few who realise what's going on.
If I download a free tool to do a specific task, I might get spywared. That's a part of the game. However, when an ISP starts using it, then it becomes worrying.
I'm sure many companies don't understand the meaning of what they are doing. They see it as an opertunity to understand their customers better. They just can't seem to see through the end-users eyes and realise that what they are doing is wrong.