Embedded Linux Wi-Fi Mesh Router On Sale

juxter writes "Following the announcement earlier this month, LocustWorld are now selling pre-built hardware MeshAPs for use as instant turn-key nodes in community mesh networks. (pictures here) - Featuring auto-updating and auto-configuration via a centralized management site, these are designed with 'Joe PC' in mind."

Comments

Locustworld...

[Crusty Oldman]

Locustworld just had a plague descend upon it.

Will find cache for karma

[Greedo]

LocustWorld seems to be down, so here's the Google cache.

I'm such a whore.

Joe PC

[56ker]

"Following the announcement earlier this month, LocustWorld are now selling pre-built hardware MeshAPs for use as instant turn-key nodes in community mesh networks. (pictures here) - Featuring auto-updating and auto-configuration via a centralized management site, these are designed with 'Joe PC' in mind." I'm afraid Joe PC doesn't understand the words MeshAPs, turn-key, nodes, community mesh networks, auto-updating, auto-configuration and centralized management site. Are you sure this isn't aimed at the more computer literate user than Joe PC?

Re:Joe PC

[SirSlud]

Joe PC - With PC in his name. Which I assume means he likes PCs. And if he knows abit about PCs, and spends time with PCs, this might interest him.

There's a reason they didn't use the name "abacus-granny".

Mesh topology? How about cell topo?

[Istealmymusic]

Wouldn't mesh be a slightly, ahem, wildly inaccurate description of the Linux Wi-Fi router which is featured in this Slashvertisement? Wi-Fi access points have limited range in the form of a spherical sphere, causing some but not complete overlap of all cells with all cells. I concede this Linux router should be referred to as a "Linux Wi-Fi Cell Topology Router", conforming with the conventional toplogy standards. My Linksys wired router is already labelled as topology: star, why should wireless be any indifferent to the canonical forms?

Re:Mesh topology? How about cell topo?

[glwtta]

in the form of a spherical sphere

My favourite kind of sphere ;)

Re:Mesh topology? How about cell topo?

[swillden]

There's a difference, and it's an important one: Most cells are essentially standalone. That is, each cell handles communications within its boundaries and really only communicates with other cells to manage handoff, if they even talk that much.

In this case, the "cells" communicate with each other intensively, because most of them have no Internet connection at all. They pass packets from AP to AP until they arrive at one that can actually forward them onto the Net.

Thus, these access points do merge together into a seamless communications transport that seems worthy of the name "mesh".

Re:Mesh topology? How about cell topo?

[_ph1ux_]

what is the range on these exactly. and how good is the signal - what type of penetration does it get.

If I use this in my 5th floor apartment - how far will the signal be usable. What if i stick it on the roof of my building. What if I zip tie it to a phone pole outside my house?

Can you answer these.... with real praactical answers?

Re:Mesh topology? How about cell topo?

[Dialithis]

The answer depends on the antenna you hook up to it. With a good omnidirectional antenna on a mast on the roof you could well get a mile or so out of it.

A directional antenna pointed at the park across the street from a 5th story window would work great.

Setting this up on a linux server?

[thinmac]

I can't find anything about it on their site, but I have a feeling the problem is me not finding it, not it not being there (assuming that sentence made any sense).
Anyone know if you can run their software on an existing linux server? I'm using my linux gateway/firewall as my AP right now, but the new protocol looks like it could be a lot of fun. On their site, however, I can only find info about running it either on an access point or by booting off of a CD, which would kind of mess up all the other stuff I do on that machine. Anyone have any info on how to run it without booting off a removable disk?

commodity hardware

[g4dget]

Here's the bits and pieces:

• Motherboard and case from CaseOutlet.com; you get a choice of 533MHz or 800MHz, for about $200. Motherboard and CPU alone are $100.
• CF-to-IDE adapter from various sources, for about $20
• 32MB CF card for $15 (512M for about $175)
• wireless PCI 802.11b adapter, for about $40

Total cost: $275.

This takes a few minutes to put together. You get a choice between 12V or 120V power supply.

Re: commodity hardware

[ColaMan]

CompactFlash already has an IDE interface - the adaptor is merely to convert teeny-CompactFlash-pins to your normal 40 pin IDE

The reason that CF-based IDE drives are so expensive is that Flash memory is expensive to manufacture.

What about bandwidth?

[Loopy]

I only see one wireless NIC in it...how much good as a hub will it do after 10, 20 or 50 people start using it?

system specs

[ruiner5000]

I've been selling the same sort of MINI ITX boxes to quite a few people. There setup is based on the VIA 500MHz C3 model with Casetronic MINI ITX case with PCI riser. Not too shabby, although costs could be cut by using embedded memory onboard instead of using the compact flash to ide adapter. Now if VIA would get the DDR memory based Eden 2 out that would make a sweet little box.

Alternative Solution

[PhotonSphere]

The wireless group in Houston is building even smaller boxes that are capable of doing everything that this box does. A HOWTO is being assembled here. They are using the Soekris Net4501 in combination with the DWL-520 802.11b PCI card to run Linux and push HostAP and NoCatAuth. The Soekris comes with 3 NICs and no moving parts!

you pay a premium for size

[g4dget]

The Soekris motherboard costs $196, for a 133MHz 486. A Mini ITX motheboard with processor costs around $100, with your choice of 533MHz or 800MHz Pentium-compatible processor, plus a $20 CF-to-IDE adapter.

The Soekris has a number of advantages, primarily that it's smaller and that it is happy with just 5V or 7-20V DC. But you pay a premium for those features, and you sacrifice functionality. The Mini ITX gives you a standard PCI slot, many more I/O options, much better performance, and more I/O ports.

I think, given its functionality, the "value" of something like the Soekris 486 boards really "should be" around $50 these days, and that's what it probably would be if it really were manufactured in huge quantities. Does anybody know of a low-cost 486 PC104 board like that?

Re:you pay a premium for size

[Paul Komarek]

Just to be picky:

* "The Soekris motherboard costs $196" It's not a motherboard, it's a single board computer. You know that and I know that, but it makes a big difference for someone not familiar with the board.

* The Mini-ITX stuff is very new, using very new technology, and I haven't seen one yet with three eth ifaces, two 'pci' slots (one mini-pci, one 3.3v pci), and two serial ports. One of the Soekris eth ifaces is net-bootable.

* The Mini-ITX stuff is fanless, but still hotter than the Soekris. I expect the Mini-ITX stuff (esp. w/ enough gear to do what the net4501 does) draws a lot more power than the 0.06A at 120V during normal (not idle) operation. Of course, the cpu on the Mini-ITX stuff is much faster. That probably doesn't matter to the target market of the net4501, because of their applications (hardware-assisted vpn and other WAN routing/firewalling tasks).

* Besides being smaller and lighter (as you mention), the net4501 runs cooler than the C3 and does not need a heat sink.

* I wonder if the Soekris has been vibration tested and such. Since the Mini-ITX stuff requires assembly (cpu, heat sink, network cards, etc), it probably couldn't withstand much vibration without some ruggedizing.

* You cannot find equivalent functionality to the net4501 for $50 anywhere (see my next paragraph =-). The net4501 is a bargain for the intended audience. And pc104 stuff is generally more expensive, because of the slightly more compact form factor and fancy i/o stuff.

I've spent a *lot* of time looking for SBCs like the net4501 but less expensive. There aren't any (yet). That's why I've got a net4501 handling many of my gateway and network tasks. For another $100 or so dollars, you can get a nice 3-port 300MHz NatSemi Geode board from Acrosser (AR-B1550, fanless and very compact) that seems adequate for file serving, mail serving, and light web serving. As with the Soekris, I haven't found better prices on compact fanless SBCs anywhere.

FWIW, the folks at Soekris and Acrosser are very pleasant to work with, and the user communities are nice.

-Paul Komarek

Re:you pay a premium for size

[g4dget]

I noted that VIA's suggested power supplies either had fans, except for that TK fanless ATX supply (which costs $150). I'm using a wall brick for my net4501.

There are cheap, wall-brick power supplies for these boards; the CaseOutlet cases come with one.

Mini-ITX system *must* include the net-booting eth card and other "accessories", the power supply that probably has moving parts, and the additional heat output

The onboard Ethernet net-boots; there isn't much else that you need, except maybe a $20 CF-to-IDE adapter.

Not cell, not star, but mesh

[Gerry Gleason]

Star is correct for the typical WiFi network with one or more wired APs and many leaf nodes. These nodes will connect to one another for routing exclusively through a wireless "mesh" of nodes, hence the name. This is a superset of cell topo where you hook up to wired base stations in a star topo, but you can be handed off while moving. Cell type handoff should be part of this type of network as well, but it will probably be controlled in the "client" node rather than being a function of the network as will cell phones.

This is a very cool development, and I can't wait until a network develops in my neighborhood. I wonder how dense these things have to be to get good coverage in an urban environment?

isn't this overkill?

[jiminim]

500MHz and 128MB RAM?

My own version of this that I built last year mostly out of parts I had laying around when I was too cheap to buy a real ap:
66MHz Pentium w/ small AT Mobo
32MB RAM
AT P/S
Floppy
ISA to ribbon cable to nice 2 card PCMCIA socket ($5 from ebay +$5s/h)
Orinoco card ($60)
WRP on a floppy from nocat.net
random Intel PCI NIC

This little baby, named Gates, ran faithfully for about six months until my roommate finally got a real ap.

What's in it for me?

[NKJensen]

It seems to be a parallel Internet on the air.

IP range 1.x.y.z and no routing to/from the "old" internet.

Can any gurus out there tell me about possible uses for this?

Can I E-mail anyone on the old Internet from this new user-driven, no-subnet, free net?

Is it a true AP?

[roybadami]

Given that they used the linux-wlan drivers, I suspect that this isn't a true AP (running in BSS mode), unless support for this is now in linux-wlan (they do say they use bleeding edge drivers).

Given they use Prism II hardware, I don't understand why they don't use the hostap drivers.

BSS mode has scalability advantages, because it solves the 'hidden sender' problem. ie even though 802.11 nodes always listen to check that the channel is clear before sending, there is a danger that two nodes at opposite extremes won't be able to hear each other, and will try to send at the same time, resulting in collisions. A true AP, running in BSS mode, helps aleviate this problem.)