Embedded Linux Wi-Fi Mesh Router On Sale

juxter writes "Following the announcement earlier this month, LocustWorld are now selling pre-built hardware MeshAPs for use as instant turn-key nodes in community mesh networks. (pictures here) - Featuring auto-updating and auto-configuration via a centralized management site, these are designed with 'Joe PC' in mind."

Comments

so then i says

[Anonymous Coward]

g to the oatse
c to the izzex
oh yeah!!!

Re:so then i says

[Anonymous Coward]

For shizzle my nizzle

Post the first

[Anonymous Coward]

All hail post the first.

Piss cuntsucker motherfucker

[Noose For A Neck]

10/31/02 (hi, vergil!)

What a weird and shitty day it has been. Being that I've been working on putting together
this (worthless, totally amateur) video for broadcast journalism and working long
afternoons and evenings at school, I'm pretty goddamn tired.

I'm too lazy to deal with Halloween. It ceased being a major event in my life sometime around
when I started high school. So it rolled around un-noticed this year, kinda creeping up on me
like yesterday when Sam (the girl I drive to school) asked me about it. "Umm, yeah... I'm not
dressing up for Halloween." isn't something a girl (this girl) wants to hear. So she's sort of
bummed. And I'm bummed.

Ever since I woke up this morning, things went downhill. It's probably because everyone else
got to enjoy themselves at school. But I'm convinced that it's gotta be something more. I've
been out of it. Did I mention that before?

Interesting story: I went to the gym this evening, and practically nobody was there. I figure,
this is a little weird, being a weeknight and primetime and all that. I was at the
gym in the first place because I kinda needed something to do to forget about what a shit day it had
been, so I might as well plan ahead for the rest of the weekend. I call up Sam on my cellphone, but
she doesn't seem to be there. Then I head home after working out, and I'm driving close to my
neighborhood, and I see all these kids walking around with flash lights and all, and I figure
there's a party going on somewhere. Then it dawns on me: it's Halloween, dumbfuck.

The help people need most urgently is help in admi

[varak_mathews]

The help people need most urgently is help in admitting that they need help.
-- Late night troll.

/.ed before FP

[Anonymous Coward]

a record probably not, but still a showing

Locustworld...

[Crusty Oldman]

Locustworld just had a plague descend upon it.

Re:Locustworld...

[Anonymous Coward]

Swarm of plants descended on Locust Headquarters at about 10:30.

Re:Locustworld...

[Anonymous Coward]

hahaahaaaah u r teh r0x0rz @ j0kz j00 t34c|n m1 2?

Re:Locustworld...

[GhostseTroll]

Your Bowels Cleansed

Let me ask you this...which is worse:

A. The engine on your Lexus freezes up at 160,000 miles instead of 300,000. You take a financial hit and you are forced to buy a Camry this time.

B. You start bleeding during bowel movements. You go to the doctor and get poked, prodded, X-ray'd, biopsied, etc. 3 days later you get a call for a consultation. The doctor informs you that you have advanced colon cancer at 45 years old. You have anywhere from 6 months to 5 years left to live. He tells you it's time to get your house in order because you'll be checking out soon. Chemotherapy starts today.

A friend of mine who was a science and health researcher at the University of Chicago, just died this past year of colon cancer at 42. In the midst of the prime of his life, he said goodbye, and left his wife and child behind, wondering what just hit them.

Why do you brush your teeth? Are your teeth falling out right now? For most of us, we do it so we won't need false teeth and Fixodent down the road...right? We want to be able to eat apples. Hey, I agree with that. Natural teeth are great.

But have you ever seen someone who was forced to endure a colonectomy? Someone who now will be spending the rest of their life carrying a bag around?

Incredibly, this is an area where even the staunchest MD's AGREE with us!! Can you believe it? If they knew you had the greatest colon cleanse in the world, I bet they might even refer people to you. NO, I'm not kidding...

This subject is not even up for debate. It's a proven fact. The problem is, most people are not doing anything about it. Please don't be one of them.

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When you do the cleanse, for the first few days....things are a little weird. But you know you're cleansed when you see the above good stuff happening, and you are eliminating at least 2-3 times per day.

Cleansing your colon is a 30-day process. Its also very economical at under $50. You may be very surprised at some of the benefits you will receive besides just losing 1-5 lbs of cr*p from your body and brightening your future health.

People have reported more energy, less allergies, clearing of acne, cessation of migraines, and many other results, not to mention restored regularity. When your body is void of old, poisonous toxins that are constantly being reabsorbed through the colon walls, it can begin to heal again. And when the colon walls are clean, the good nutrients from your food and supplements can be absorbed again. You will be thrilled with the results.

At this point you are either nauseated thinking about what is inside your own colon, or you're ready to do something about cleaning it out.

Want more info? Click here and I'll send it to you, including instructions on how to take it. It is private, all natural, totally safe, inexpensive, and very effective. And yes, I have taken it myself.

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cmdrtaco@slashdot.org?subject=SendColonCleanseIn fo

cmdrtaco@slashdot.org?subject=PleaseRemove

Please do not 'reply' to this email as we might not see your message. Please use the links above.

You wish you were as cool as this kid...

[Anonymous Coward]

with the pimp-daddy Halloween costume.

But we didn't have this kind of thing when we were growing up. (Note all 3 colors are sold out, but you can still get the fireman costume.)

Re:You wish you were as cool as this kid...

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh come on, mod fags. Did you even look at the picture? He's one bad mothefucking 6 year old! That's 10 times funnier that the stupid locust comment above it.

I wonder what the Ho costume looks like.

Hm?

[BJH]

Featuring auto-updating and auto-configuration via a centralized management site

You mean, it used to feature a centralized management site. It's now a smoking ruin thanks to the /. effect.

Re:Hm?

[BJH]

The fourth comment, with the first three being FP variants, and I get a "Redundant" followed by an "Overrated"...

Got crack?

Re:Hm?

[Anonymous Coward]

'redundant' + 'overrated' = 'not funny, stop telling this joke'

modz, please apply this -2 score to step 1, ..., step N and ayb jokes. as well as humor about the slashdot effect.

Will find cache for karma

[Greedo]

LocustWorld seems to be down, so here's the Google cache.

I'm such a whore.

Re:Will find cache for karma

[Servo]

Damn, I think we slashdotted Google. Google is being bitch slow to come up!

Re:Will find cache for karma

[Zen Programmer]

You're not a whore! Karma isn't an addiction! I used to suck toes for crack! Now that's an addiction! Uncle Danny used to snort toilet bowl cleaner, and you're bitchin' about your Karma. Do you really think this is going to get you anywhere in the world, DJ? And no, I don't care How Rude I am Stephanie, so shut the hell up! [And then in an aside to the audience]: You can thank the writers for that one.

What can I say? It took CowboyNeal a lot of booze/drugs to make me pretend I'm Bob Saget with my personality split between his roles on Half Baked, Full House, and America's Funniest Home Videos. Needless to say, it worked.

Re:Will find cache for karma

[Anonymous Coward]

Except they're not down. Seem to be surviving the slashdotting quite well.

Re:Will find cache for karma

[Anonymous Coward]

They were down for a while right after the article was posted.

Re:Will find cache for karma

[Anonymous Coward]

They were down for a while right after the article was posted.
That mean's they were slashdotted DUDE! Yer so fuckin lame! Slashdot is the most powerful force on the internet! If a site goes down, IT WAS SLASHDOTTED.

My lan was slashdotted the other day cause I didn't know what a subnet was. It was rad. But someone on IRC told me how to un/. it. Iam a leet haxor now. I'll /. you, biznatch.

Warez = Juarez, cause he was a pirate, you stoopid old person.

Re:Will find cache for karma

[Anonymous Coward]

Ahhhh, poor baby moderator. You need a nap, you can't tell the difference between humor and the off topic button. :)

Re:Will find cache for karma

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, at least we all know that you DIDN'T shoot first ;)

Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

I got Linux to run on a pickle jar full of urine. I wonder if I can get that posted to slashdot!

Heh heh heh

[sheepab]

Kinda funny when the topic is "Embedded Linux Wi-Fi Mesh Router On Sale"...I click on the link...and up comes a pop up about coupons coupons coupons!!! Sale...coupons...get it? Heh yea I know Im a nerd...I read slashdot.

Re:Heh heh heh

[NKJensen]

Mozilla users can turn those off. Neat!

fuckyou

[Anonymous Coward]

fuckyou

Re:fuckyou

[Anonymous Coward]

feel better now?

Re:fuckyou

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes! but fuckyou

What about me?

[Ghoser777]

Matt PC? Have they ever considered Mike PC, or even Jennifer PC? I bet there are more Steve PC's than I can shake a stick at (and I can shake a stick at a lot of PCs!).

This is the problem with Linux, always being targeted at the needs of a smallish audience.

F-bacher

Re:What about me?

[Anonymous Coward]

I bet there are more Steve PC's than I can shake a stick at

Steve PC's??? You mean like the ones this guy hocks?

Re:What about me?

[Anonymous Coward]

you sure are a big fucking faggot. Don't ever make such a stupid comment again.

Re:What about me?

[Istealmymusic]

I found triple 7s' post rather eloquent in certain places. Come on, its a well-known fact that 90% of all computer users have shaken their stick at least once, but more often at regular intervals.

First Edgar Allan Poe Post!

[Anonymous Coward]

.

Dream-Land. by Edgar Allan Poe

.

BY a route obscure and lonely, haunted by ill angels only,
Where an Eidolon, named NIGHT, on a black throne reigns upright,
I have reached these lands but newly from an ultimate dim Thule --
From a wild weird clime, that lieth, sublime, out of SPACE -- out of TIME.

Bottomless vales and boundless floods, and chasms, and caves, and Titian woods,
With forms that no man can discover for the dews that drip all over;
Mountains toppling evermore into seas without a shore;
Seas that restlessly aspire, surging, unto skies of fire;
Lakes that endlessly outspread their lone waters, lone and dead, --
Their still waters, still and chilly with the snows of the lolling lily.

By a route obscure and lonely, haunted by ill angels only,
Where an Eidolon, named NIGHT, on a black throne reigns upright,
I have reached these lands but newly from an ultimate dim Thule.

By the lakes that thus outspread their lone waters, lone and dead, --
Their sad waters, sad and chilly with the snows of the lolling lily, --
By the mountains -- near the river murmuring lowly, murmuring ever, --
By the gray woods, -- by the swamp where the toad and the newt encamp, --
By the dismal tarns and pools where dwell the Ghouls, --
By each spot the most unholy -- in each nook most melancholy, --
There the traveller meets aghast sheeted Memories of the Past --
Shrouded forms that start and sigh as they pass the wanderer by --
White-robed forms of friends long given, in agony, to the worms, and Heaven.

By a route obscure and lonely, haunted by ill angels only,
Where an Eidolon, named NIGHT, on a black throne reigns upright,
I have reached these lands but newly from an ultimate dim Thule --

For the heart whose woes are legion 'T is a peaceful, soothing region --
For the spirit that walks in shadow 'T is -- oh 't is an Eldorado!
But the traveler, traveling through it, may not -- dare not openly view it;
Never its mysteries are exposed to the weak human eye unclosed;
So wills its King, who hath forbid the uplifting of the fringed lid;
And thus the sad Soul that here passes beholds it but through darkened glasses.
By a route obscure and lonely, haunted by ill angels only,
Where an Eidolon, named NIGHT, on a black throne reigns upright,
I have wandered home but newly from this ultimate dim Thule.

.

Speech

[Anonymous Coward]

There's a big difference between "on sale" and "available".

Learn it.

If You Can Read This, You're Too Wide

[Anonymous Coward]

Blorp!

• • WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW WWWWWWWW
    
    
    
    Lameness filter encountered. Post aborted!
    Reason: Too much candy.
    
    

No, Not Joe

[Anonymous Coward]

Joe PC would use Microsoft. Probably has a Dell, drinks Budwiser, watches wrasslin.

This would be Timmy The Computer Hippie. He drinks Red Bull and builds his own boxen. He like to watch Friends and Ally McBeal.

Re:No, Not Joe

[Istealmymusic]

I watch Friends but not Ally, what would that make me?

Re:No, Not Joe

[good-duckspeak]

I watch Friends but not Ally, what would that make me?

A consumer whore. Just like the rest of us.

Seriously though, watch both - OTTW.

Re:No, Not Joe

[Anonymous Coward]

Not quite as big a loser, more like second to last in the human race.

Re:No, Not Joe

[Anonymous Coward]

Freinds and Ally McBeal??? What the hell is wrong with you? The only shows I watch are I dream of Jeannee and Gilligans Island. Friends and Ally McBeal are for Fagghorx!!

Joe PC

[56ker]

"Following the announcement earlier this month, LocustWorld are now selling pre-built hardware MeshAPs for use as instant turn-key nodes in community mesh networks. (pictures here) - Featuring auto-updating and auto-configuration via a centralized management site, these are designed with 'Joe PC' in mind." I'm afraid Joe PC doesn't understand the words MeshAPs, turn-key, nodes, community mesh networks, auto-updating, auto-configuration and centralized management site. Are you sure this isn't aimed at the more computer literate user than Joe PC?

Re:Joe PC

[SirSlud]

Joe PC - With PC in his name. Which I assume means he likes PCs. And if he knows abit about PCs, and spends time with PCs, this might interest him.

There's a reason they didn't use the name "abacus-granny".

Mesh topology? How about cell topo?

[Istealmymusic]

Wouldn't mesh be a slightly, ahem, wildly inaccurate description of the Linux Wi-Fi router which is featured in this Slashvertisement? Wi-Fi access points have limited range in the form of a spherical sphere, causing some but not complete overlap of all cells with all cells. I concede this Linux router should be referred to as a "Linux Wi-Fi Cell Topology Router", conforming with the conventional toplogy standards. My Linksys wired router is already labelled as topology: star, why should wireless be any indifferent to the canonical forms?

Re:Mesh topology? How about cell topo?

[glwtta]

in the form of a spherical sphere

My favourite kind of sphere ;)

Re:Mesh topology? How about cell topo?

[swillden]

There's a difference, and it's an important one: Most cells are essentially standalone. That is, each cell handles communications within its boundaries and really only communicates with other cells to manage handoff, if they even talk that much.

In this case, the "cells" communicate with each other intensively, because most of them have no Internet connection at all. They pass packets from AP to AP until they arrive at one that can actually forward them onto the Net.

Thus, these access points do merge together into a seamless communications transport that seems worthy of the name "mesh".

Re:Mesh topology? How about cell topo?

[_ph1ux_]

what is the range on these exactly. and how good is the signal - what type of penetration does it get.

If I use this in my 5th floor apartment - how far will the signal be usable. What if i stick it on the roof of my building. What if I zip tie it to a phone pole outside my house?

Can you answer these.... with real praactical answers?

Re:Mesh topology? How about cell topo?

[Dialithis]

The answer depends on the antenna you hook up to it. With a good omnidirectional antenna on a mast on the roof you could well get a mile or so out of it.

A directional antenna pointed at the park across the street from a 5th story window would work great.

Re:Mesh topology? How about cell topo?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey, don't make fun! Maybe he meant 'sphereical sphere' as opposed to a... um... 'blue', yeah, 'blue sphere'. There!

Setting this up on a linux server?

[thinmac]

I can't find anything about it on their site, but I have a feeling the problem is me not finding it, not it not being there (assuming that sentence made any sense).
Anyone know if you can run their software on an existing linux server? I'm using my linux gateway/firewall as my AP right now, but the new protocol looks like it could be a lot of fun. On their site, however, I can only find info about running it either on an access point or by booting off of a CD, which would kind of mess up all the other stuff I do on that machine. Anyone have any info on how to run it without booting off a removable disk?

Re:Setting this up on a linux server?

[Gerry Gleason]

When I followed the link to "community mesh network", there were hardware and software links to the site, so I assume you can just get the software to set up your node. Of course this doesn't get interesting unless you have a handful of mesh node to connect with and create an extended network.

Re:Joe PC... or was it someone else?

[nackrm]

Maybe the person misheard the name... How about Joe Peace?

Joe PC

[fred911]

What about Joe 6 pack? You know the type of guy that reads /. after a trip from his favorite tavern?

What I want to know is when they'll be building apps for this market (besides www.persiankitty.com)....

oh well...

fulfilling the goatse quota

[Anonymous Coward]

goatse haiku:

large, gaping anus
wide enough to park a car
time for anal? yes.

Re:fulfilling the goatse quota

[Anonymous Coward]

you could fit your head
in that man's gaping asshole
talk about skullfuck!

What's the range on these things?

[Tip]

I was just wondering what the range on these things were? Unfortunatly there are a lot of hills and trees where I live.

Re:What's the range on these things?

[giel]

A few miles (1 or 2 I guess) when in line of sight.

Re:What's the range on these things?

[DirkDaring]

Depends on if you use an antenna and an amp. Put a yagi on it and you can hit 14 miles with clear LOS.

commodity hardware

[g4dget]

Here's the bits and pieces:

• Motherboard and case from CaseOutlet.com; you get a choice of 533MHz or 800MHz, for about $200. Motherboard and CPU alone are $100.
• CF-to-IDE adapter from various sources, for about $20
• 32MB CF card for $15 (512M for about $175)
• wireless PCI 802.11b adapter, for about $40

Total cost: $275.

This takes a few minutes to put together. You get a choice between 12V or 120V power supply.

Re: commodity hardware

[edwarddes]

if your willing to spend 500, why not just get an ipod and steal the hard drive from that? you even can get a 20 gig one for under $500

Re: commodity hardware

[Greg Lindahl]

CF is really slow. If you actually use your laptop for anything but surfing pr0n, you probably don't want a CF solid state drive.

Re: commodity hardware

[Paul Komarek]

I believe that CF is particularly slow on writes, but not so bad on reads.

-Paul Komarek

Re: commodity hardware

[ColaMan]

CompactFlash already has an IDE interface - the adaptor is merely to convert teeny-CompactFlash-pins to your normal 40 pin IDE

The reason that CF-based IDE drives are so expensive is that Flash memory is expensive to manufacture.

Re: commodity hardware

[mr. roboto]

The iPod doesn't have a solid state hard drive. (That would be cool though, wouldn't it?)

Re: commodity hardware

[nexthec]

I belive you are correct on that account.....now if they had Sram cards.....that would be fast...they just need power...all the time ;->

Re: commodity hardware

[Paul Komarek]

Any idea how DOC or other solid-state IDE interfaces compare?

Not particularly relevant (hence I unchecked the +1 bonus =-), but one of Cray's old vector machines had static ram for main memory with an incredible fabric between ram and cpus. If I remember correctly, it was a "butterfly" network (5 years after I learned about it, I don't much remember it anymore =-).

-Paul Komarek

Re:commodity hardware

[xercist]

Allow me to be a little offtopic for a second, but where can you get this 12VDC power supply? I'm building a computer into my trunk to play my oggs, and inverting 12 to 120 just to go back to 12 seems inefficient. Alternatively, I've seen plans to build 12V ATX power supplies, but that means going all over to find parts and designing a pcb layout and etching etc etc etc etc. A nice 12VDC ATX power supply that doesn't cost more than the rest of the project combined would be really nice.

Re:commodity hardware

[GlassUser]

There are several places, but http://www.caseoutlet.com/case/2688R/CS-2688R.html is where I got mine.

Re:commodity hardware

[tzanger]

What motherboard+CPU did you see there for under $250? I couldn't find a motherboard for a fanless CPU, other than Crusoe, Pentium or 486DX4, and even they were $250-$380 without CPU.

Re: commodity hardware

[tzanger]

f CF-to-IDE adapters are so cheap, why are the CF based solid state IDE hard disks so expensive!?! I've been waiting for Sandisk's 1GB 2.5" ide drive to come down under $500 so I can replace my laptop drive. It doesn't look like that will happen any time soon.

Because Flash is expensive, that's why.

And you won't be replacing an IDE HDD with a CF card for very long. Flash has a limited number of write cycles. And it's dog-slow.

Re:commodity hardware

[Jagasian]

The Via Eden 533mhz x86 based platform goes for about $90. The Via Eden is the new popular inexpensive fanless platform. The VIA Eden has a built in CPU, video, audio, ethernet, usb, etc... Also, the VIA Eden is tiny tiny tiny. Great for little Linux projects.

I am running a default Redhat desktop on it as we speak. Installed right out of the box.

Re:commodity hardware

[tzanger]

The Via Eden 533mhz x86 based platform goes for about $90.

Most excellent. Thank you for the pointer. However the Via Eden isn't on the site mentioned. :-)

Re:commodity hardware

[g4dget]

Here:

http://www.caseoutlet.com/NWPc/2677/itx2677.html

Get the Eden 533MHz version for a fanless motherboard.

Re:commodity hardware

[slazar]

Another source, which I just bought from is http://www.idot.com/TheStore/Desktop/555Spec.asp?P roduct.id=555&Cate.id=19 from www.idot.com. It showed up very quickly and I got a system with 128mb ram, 533 MHz Via board, and that nice black case. I got the ITX-PV Black ITX w/Riser Card & DC PS case. (nice black color, with external 12V DC power supply) Check out this link too, it has more pictures and a review of the case. http://www.mini-itx.com/reviews/2677R/ Right now it's running ipcop (www.ipcop.org) with a second nic, as my DSL router. Soon to be reloaded and get a usb wifi card in it!

What about bandwidth?

[Loopy]

I only see one wireless NIC in it...how much good as a hub will it do after 10, 20 or 50 people start using it?

Re:What about bandwidth?

[redcliffe]

The other problem is you won't be able to link them via wireless either....

Re:What about bandwidth?

[LinuxOnHal]

You could always overlay several of them if you had to. 802.11b allows for 3 completely unique channels to be used 1, 6 and 11.

The thing looks fairly expandable as well, it probably is no trick to add to it.

Re:What about bandwidth?

[Duwke]

I think you have hit the nail on the head with 802.11b in general. Bandwidth is a huge issue in "mesh" concepts. With only 3 unique channels, there is certain overlap and interference, if your mesh is over 3 nodes. However, if you just wanted on superbandwidth node, I suppose a second nic would be very useful... now, if only the software would support it.

system specs

[ruiner5000]

I've been selling the same sort of MINI ITX boxes to quite a few people. There setup is based on the VIA 500MHz C3 model with Casetronic MINI ITX case with PCI riser. Not too shabby, although costs could be cut by using embedded memory onboard instead of using the compact flash to ide adapter. Now if VIA would get the DDR memory based Eden 2 out that would make a sweet little box.

Re:system specs

[Jagasian]

I would love to see highly specialized Via Eden platforms, for example:

• Embed a TV Tuner Card, Disk-on-Chip, and RAM: would make for a great lowcost baseline Linux PVR platform
• Embed a 4 port NIC, Disk-on-Chip, and RAM: would make for a great low cost Linux router, firewall, etc...

RAM is cheap, so I don't know why they haven't embedded RAM on the motherboard like all the other devices, and the VIA EPIA Eden already has a place for a Disk-on-Chip, but the boards sold as of now don't have a DOC installed.

Linux based PVR and Network devices can still be made using the Via Epia Eden by just adding a PCI TV Tuner, PCI NIC, etc... I have Linux installed on my Epia Eden. No fans, low power consumption... I leave it on all the time!

Re:system specs

[ntp]

> Embed a 4 port NIC, Disk-on-Chip, and RAM: would make for a great low cost Linux router, firewall, etc...

No it wouldn't! Why do people say this? For one thing, 4-port NICs are *expensive*. You can buy a cheap 4-port switched router.

Even if you were to get a 4-port card for free, Linux will *not* be able to forward or even bridge the packets fast enough.

Joe PCs?

[Kip Diamond]

Compaqs?

It's a WHAT? Mesh router? WTF is that?

[Anonymous Coward]

Jumping Jesus on a fucking pogo stick, now they're plugging technology that even the fucking engineers who designed it don't know what the fuck it is or what the hell purpose it's meant to serve.

YOU PEOPLE ARE ON CRACK! Look, hey, listen up, kids! I've got a new divertibrofartatron -- AND IT'S MINIATURIZED! It's from JAPAN! Or maybe FINLAND! You can run LINUX ON IT! I don't know what you're supposed to fucking DO with it, but it's SHINY! It's got WIRES! Little blinkin' LIGHTS on the front! Some kinda COMPUTER thing, yeah! Fuckin-A right!

I'M A-GONNA BUY FOUR!

Alternative Solution

[PhotonSphere]

The wireless group in Houston is building even smaller boxes that are capable of doing everything that this box does. A HOWTO is being assembled here. They are using the Soekris Net4501 in combination with the DWL-520 802.11b PCI card to run Linux and push HostAP and NoCatAuth. The Soekris comes with 3 NICs and no moving parts!

MOD PARENT UP. NOW!

[GhostseTroll]

I'll sacrifice my last post of the day for it.

Er... What?

[Murmer]

They're actually making money selling hardware mishaps? Christ, those things come to me for free, and way too often.

Re:Alternative Solution - HOWTO URL

[PhotonSphere]

Sorry about the URL for the HowTo. The correct URL is http://www.photonsphere.com/article.php?sid=186.

Please...

[The Bungi]

Mod this down. thx!

you pay a premium for size

[g4dget]

The Soekris motherboard costs $196, for a 133MHz 486. A Mini ITX motheboard with processor costs around $100, with your choice of 533MHz or 800MHz Pentium-compatible processor, plus a $20 CF-to-IDE adapter.

The Soekris has a number of advantages, primarily that it's smaller and that it is happy with just 5V or 7-20V DC. But you pay a premium for those features, and you sacrifice functionality. The Mini ITX gives you a standard PCI slot, many more I/O options, much better performance, and more I/O ports.

I think, given its functionality, the "value" of something like the Soekris 486 boards really "should be" around $50 these days, and that's what it probably would be if it really were manufactured in huge quantities. Does anybody know of a low-cost 486 PC104 board like that?

Re:you pay a premium for size

[Paul Komarek]

Just to be picky:

* "The Soekris motherboard costs $196" It's not a motherboard, it's a single board computer. You know that and I know that, but it makes a big difference for someone not familiar with the board.

* The Mini-ITX stuff is very new, using very new technology, and I haven't seen one yet with three eth ifaces, two 'pci' slots (one mini-pci, one 3.3v pci), and two serial ports. One of the Soekris eth ifaces is net-bootable.

* The Mini-ITX stuff is fanless, but still hotter than the Soekris. I expect the Mini-ITX stuff (esp. w/ enough gear to do what the net4501 does) draws a lot more power than the 0.06A at 120V during normal (not idle) operation. Of course, the cpu on the Mini-ITX stuff is much faster. That probably doesn't matter to the target market of the net4501, because of their applications (hardware-assisted vpn and other WAN routing/firewalling tasks).

* Besides being smaller and lighter (as you mention), the net4501 runs cooler than the C3 and does not need a heat sink.

* I wonder if the Soekris has been vibration tested and such. Since the Mini-ITX stuff requires assembly (cpu, heat sink, network cards, etc), it probably couldn't withstand much vibration without some ruggedizing.

* You cannot find equivalent functionality to the net4501 for $50 anywhere (see my next paragraph =-). The net4501 is a bargain for the intended audience. And pc104 stuff is generally more expensive, because of the slightly more compact form factor and fancy i/o stuff.

I've spent a *lot* of time looking for SBCs like the net4501 but less expensive. There aren't any (yet). That's why I've got a net4501 handling many of my gateway and network tasks. For another $100 or so dollars, you can get a nice 3-port 300MHz NatSemi Geode board from Acrosser (AR-B1550, fanless and very compact) that seems adequate for file serving, mail serving, and light web serving. As with the Soekris, I haven't found better prices on compact fanless SBCs anywhere.

FWIW, the folks at Soekris and Acrosser are very pleasant to work with, and the user communities are nice.

-Paul Komarek

Re:you pay a premium for size

[g4dget]

I expect the Mini-ITX stuff (esp. w/ enough gear to do what the net4501 does) draws a lot more power than the 0.06A at 120V during normal (not idle) operation.

The 533MHz supposedly consumes 1W, and the 800MHz 5W (I haven't measured it).

The Mini-ITX stuff is very new, using very new technology

I dunno--looks like pretty run-of-the-mill PC technology to me.

with three eth ifaces, two 'pci' slots (one mini-pci, one 3.3v pci), and two serial ports

Well, no, but it comes with single or dual regular PCI slots (depending on riser), dual USB, Ethernet, VGA, S-video, Audio, PS/2, and serial, probably a more useful collection for many applications.

Re:you pay a premium for size

[Paul Komarek]

My "new technology" comment was definitely off-base. I really meant that the C3 was very new.

I'm not sure how to interpret the cpu power draw. I really want to know about system power, which is what I was measuring on the Soekris (with a regular VOM, not a power meter).

I agree that many applications want "PC" ports. The Soekris isn't being marketed or sold into those markets. By the same token, the Mini-ITX C3 stuff is tremendous overkill for VPN WAN routers.

The Mini-ITX stuff I've seen (not much, and only on the web) doesn't seem to have bios-over-serial and built-in net-booting, which are very nice (if not essential) for "embedded" operation.
I noted that VIA's suggested power supplies either had fans, except for that TK fanless ATX supply (which costs $150). I'm using a wall brick for my net4501.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the price, power, and engineering considerations for a Mini-ITX system *must* include the net-booting eth card and other "accessories", the power supply that probably has moving parts, and the additional heat output.

I think I may use a C3 system when I get around to my fanless mailserver and Zope box, and I'll be willing to pay for all the extra equipment (including that TK supply). But the C3 isn't needed for serving nfs at home or acting as a DSL firewall. Since I want my gateway, nfs server, and web server to run on separate cpus (admin and security reasons), I'm trying to by the least expensive box for each task. The net4501 ended up an excellent choice for my network tasks, including gateway, router, wireless router, and firewall.

We're just thinking of different applications.

-Paul Komarek

Re:you pay a premium for size

[g4dget]

I noted that VIA's suggested power supplies either had fans, except for that TK fanless ATX supply (which costs $150). I'm using a wall brick for my net4501.

There are cheap, wall-brick power supplies for these boards; the CaseOutlet cases come with one.

Mini-ITX system *must* include the net-booting eth card and other "accessories", the power supply that probably has moving parts, and the additional heat output

The onboard Ethernet net-boots; there isn't much else that you need, except maybe a $20 CF-to-IDE adapter.

Re:you pay a premium for size

[Paul Komarek]

Good to hear about the wall-brick PSUs for Mini-ITX systems; that TK fanless ATX psu is expensive. Also good about the net-booting.

I would definitely miss the serial bios console. I say this as an admin of 7 headless macines (4 Alpha boxes, 2 x86, one net4501). It is a real pain to drag monitors around to back of racks when you need to fiddle with them. Not that the Soekris has it, but remote management consoles rock; even if the kernel wedges, you can still power cycle remotely.

I'm really hoping you're going to reply with "such-and-such Mini-ITX board has a serial bios". If you tell me it has a remote management console, I'll know you're lying. =-)

Let's do a comparison, then:

Gateway, Router, Wirless Access Point, Firewall with DMZ iface (which is precisely why I bought a board with three ifaces):

$232+shipping: Soekris net4501 with case and psu
$60+shipping: D-Link DWL-520
-------
About $300.

I'm using nfs root right now, but might use an 8MB cf card soon. I have two that came free with digital cameras, but new ones seem to be about $4.

How much would a similar 3-iface Mini-ITX system cost? I'm not trying to prove anything here, just trying to find out if I should have waited before buying the Soekris setup for $300.

-Paul Komarek.

Re:you pay a premium for size

[g4dget]

Well, you can get full specs here:

http://www.viavpsd.com/product/Download.jsp?mother boardId=21

Note also the upcoming EPIA-M motherboard, which features USB2, FireWire, and 933MHz clock speed.

As for serial consoles, it appears that the Linux Bios has been ported to it:

http://www.trustytech.com/TMBM-MINI-ITX.htm

That would not only give you serial console management, but also very fast Linux boots.

How much would a similar 3-iface Mini-ITX system cost?

Pretty much the same amount: motherboard, CPU, case, PCI riser, screws, cables, and brick power supply from CaseOutlet.com costs a little under $200. Add to that a $20 CF-to-IDE adapter and the DWL-520. If you want to use lower-cost 5 1/4" drives, you can get a slightly larger case for slightly more money.

Another choice is the WalMart Linux PC, which appears to be using same motherboard, but for $228 also gives you a minitower, a CD-ROM drive, and a 10G disk, and perhaps more fans than you like.

Re:you pay a premium for size

[g4dget]

Oh, sorry, I didn't see the "three interface" requirement. To add two more interfaces with the least amount of hassle, I'd still go with the CaseOutlet case and use USB Ethernet adapters. They are under $20 and USB powered. Some of the nicer ones (a little more expensive) are barely larger than a plug.

Re:you pay a premium for size

[rindeee]

Just a note. The C3 is not the least bit new. Cyrix processors have been around as long as AMD (Via bought Cyrix from IBM, the C in C3 signifies Cyrix).

Nerds watch wrestling too!

[Anonymous Coward]

And wrestlers must read Slashdot, too. Heck, one wrestler right now is using the gimmick "Mattitude v1.0" with his own entrance movie done up to look like a windows media player clip. It's hilarious because it's so choppy.

There all sorts of hidden wrestling references in Slashdot comments.

commodity hardware

[jonbrewer]

CF-to-IDE adapter from various sources, for about $20

If CF-to-IDE adapters are so cheap, why are the CF based solid state IDE hard disks so expensive!?! I've been waiting for Sandisk's 1GB 2.5" ide drive to come down under $500 so I can replace my laptop drive. It doesn't look like that will happen any time soon.

A few minutes to put the hardware together, but...

[aquarian]

...how long will it take you to configure the software, and test everything? Are all the big security holes plugged?

Not cell, not star, but mesh

[Gerry Gleason]

Star is correct for the typical WiFi network with one or more wired APs and many leaf nodes. These nodes will connect to one another for routing exclusively through a wireless "mesh" of nodes, hence the name. This is a superset of cell topo where you hook up to wired base stations in a star topo, but you can be handed off while moving. Cell type handoff should be part of this type of network as well, but it will probably be controlled in the "client" node rather than being a function of the network as will cell phones.

This is a very cool development, and I can't wait until a network develops in my neighborhood. I wonder how dense these things have to be to get good coverage in an urban environment?

Re:Not cell, not star, but mesh

[Lord Prox]

This is a very cool development, and I can't wait until a network develops in my neighborhood

I don't want to sound like i'm nagging or anything, but why wait. Take the init and plop one down yourself, tell everyone (well everyone that would want to know) and get the ball rolling yourself.

karpe noctum

Re:Not cell, not star, but mesh

[Gerry Gleason]

Well, aside from budget considerations, I'm on a 'home' class DSL which makes even my in-house wired NAT box slightly grey, and I don't really want to push any legalities. I like that some people are pushing the envelope in these areas, but I want to stay within the lines on this.

The right way to do this is with bandwidth cooperatives. You just need a couple of wired points in your mesh where you are licensed to share upstream bandwidth, then you can expand outward from those points. I can think of a number of interesting business plans to develop networks like this, and I might consider some of them in the context of an educational initiative I'm trying to get off the ground. OTOH, if someone else gets there first, I'd be perfectly happy to drop a few hundred and mount one of these boxes in my attic.

It would have been even more useful in the first year or so of my DSL service when it was a bit unreliable. I'm sure that I would want to keep my DSL service in the near term until I have some confidence in the reliability of the mesh network. It sure would be nice if this kind of configuration was fully supported by the AP so that mesh traffic stays on the mesh, and both authorized wireless and wired nodes could be routed either through the mesh or a wired ISP connection.

The moderator system...

[Anonymous Coward]

...is broken like American "democracy." Perhaps if we set an age limit on moderators...

Something like you actually had to have a FUCKING CLUE before you mod something up or down.

Re:The moderator system...

[The Bungi]

I Agree With This Troll

Is my "karma" gone yet?

Yay!

isn't this overkill?

[jiminim]

500MHz and 128MB RAM?

My own version of this that I built last year mostly out of parts I had laying around when I was too cheap to buy a real ap:
66MHz Pentium w/ small AT Mobo
32MB RAM
AT P/S
Floppy
ISA to ribbon cable to nice 2 card PCMCIA socket ($5 from ebay +$5s/h)
Orinoco card ($60)
WRP on a floppy from nocat.net
random Intel PCI NIC

This little baby, named Gates, ran faithfully for about six months until my roommate finally got a real ap.

Re:isn't this overkill?

[FrostedWheat]

I can see the uses for the processing power, for applications like VTun. A 486 just couldn't run that with encryption or compression turned on. Certainly not at the speeds a wireless link can manage.

The extra layer of encryption ontop of WEP is always helpful.

Re:isn't this overkill?

[Anonymous Coward]

The extra layer of encryption ontop of WEP is always helpful.

NO!!, if you use vtun than why using also WEP!! you can disable it!

Re:isn't this overkill?

[FrostedWheat]

NO!!, if you use vtun than why using also WEP!! you can disable it!

Call me paranoid!

It dosen't hurt anything by having both, so we do.

Holy Crap!

[TerryAtWork]

It says the CF is updatable over the air - how long before THAT is hacked?

Re:Holy Crap!

[Anonymous Coward]

Right about.... NOW!

C'mon man. Just because you can admin something over a public network doesn't mean it will be compromised.

If you truly care, grab the free software and break it yourself.

I know Magic...

[Anonymous Coward]

Here, first, ill take some Cool Technology, Then ill sprinkle a little Linux on it, then ill show it to everyone on the front page of Slashdot and have everyone notice the "(pictures here)" Link...

now take this Formual and stir it around for a minute or too and it will instantly make all thier bandwith dissapear!

Soft-mesh?

[andhar]

This comes from the Joe PC department, so bear with me...

Isn't it possible to have software -- roughly similar to a proxy server -- run on the different computers in a wireless network to achieve a similar sort of mesh effect for smaller networks.

It would be handy to use other computers in the house as repeaters, i.e., not have to buy separate boxes or run extra network cable for additional access points.

Re:Soft-mesh?

[kableh]

Yup, that's more or less what my company does. We have a software product that sits on top of 802.11 cards and allows you to hop through other users back to our AP.

We've deployed it around the office and it is suprisingly effective. Multihopping also gives you other benefits, like better throughput. For example, instead of communicating directly with an AP at 5 Mbps, you can hop at 11Mbps and get double the throughput.

It really is cool stuff, but it isnt as open as this Locustworld stuff. Each has their place though.

Re:Soft-mesh?

[WirelessFreak]

Yeah, you guys just need to start selling it. It's only been "testing" for over a year now. The software that's supposedly $30 and works with standard 802.11b clients been "available" on your site for months now...but, not really because anytime MeshNetworks was contacted, we were told "not ready yet."

Give us a break....

Re:Soft-mesh?

[kableh]

Its shipping as I type this. I think a lot of people are just confused about what products we have. The soft client that works on any 802.11b card has been available for months now, but it didn't work as well as we had hoped. It took months to get access to a real miniport SDK from the 802.11 vendor we wanted to use, but that step was necessary to get access to the 802.11 card at a low level, essential for doing the routing algorithms we do. The product that we have now was available to a select few clients, who were presumably under NDA. Its shipping, but it is pricey, since we arent exactly building big lots of this stuff.

And that is the problem. We never intended to manufacture this stuff, rather we were supposed to license it to manufacturers. Things have changed as of late, and now we're shipping product.

The other product line is a proprietary chip, which we've had for months, but haven't been selling in volume. The chip is dirt cheap, but the supporting PC card board is costly for us to make, and consequently, the cards are ridiculously expensive.

And I'm good friends with our sales guys. I find it hard to believe they weren't itching to selling it to ya =). Mail em, sales at meshnetworks dot com.

What's in it for me?

[NKJensen]

It seems to be a parallel Internet on the air.

IP range 1.x.y.z and no routing to/from the "old" internet.

Can any gurus out there tell me about possible uses for this?

Can I E-mail anyone on the old Internet from this new user-driven, no-subnet, free net?

Re:What's in it for me?

[Anonymous Coward]

what drug did you take to make those wired gueses ?

heard about private IP space ?

of course you can use IPs you wanna use if you do not "connect" it to the "old internet" it will probably run. but no you can not send mail to the "old internet" then.

Re:What's in it for me?

[NKJensen]

Yes, I've got a private IP space on my side of the ADSL router, I've got. And since the router has a public IP on the other side, it's useful.

This new parallel Internet on the other hand, it's got no public routeable IP numbers, right? Hence it must forever stay a parallel network.

Won't this new network stay pretty useless until content providers start making contents available on the new network?

Btw, dont talk about drugs as if using them was normal. It's not.

Re:What's in it for me?

[Anonymous Coward]

This distro *does* interface with the 'old' internet.

It will seek a net connection via DHCP on a wired interface and setup ad-hoc routing over wireless to other locust nodes, with a default route via the regular net connection.

Re:What's in it for me?

[NKJensen]

Thank you - I've been looking for that info. Now, where did you find it?

The FAQ files didn't mention those facts (or I just could not find it).

Re:What's in it for me?

[malakai]

This isn't a flame. But, your question is maybe to 'basic' for even the FAQ. When we talk about building a wireless Internet In The Sky via mesh configuration of multiple Access Providers, we inherently assume people understand the point of this is to access the "Internet" as we know it.

It's true however, that if noone had a true net connection, a mesh/web could be "off-line" to the internet (yet still function if you were trying to contact someone else in your web... if you happened to know their private IP.).

It's also true, that if this eventually takes off, and the density of AP's increase (and the technology continues to get better) such a mesh may become more of the 'default' "Internet" than the hard-wired one we use now. Granted, that's pie-in-the-sky thinking, and 5 years away.

-malakai

Re:What's in it for me?

[rusty0101]

If your ADSL router stops routing, your internal private IP network will remain a parallel network until your ADSL router is brought back up.

Your ADSL router provides either IP Masqurading, or IP NAT features for your internal network. The mesh network gateways will provide the same capabilities. If you connect to the mesh before the AP that you use establishes a connection to a gateway, your host will connect through to the internet (once the gateway has been propigated) through a proxy service running on the AP that you connect to.

I did not see any handoff protocols specified (for mobile users with iPaqs, Zaurus and laptop users who do move around.) in the document, however it is possible that was specified in one of the protocols identified, and just not highlighted.

After all, I could be wrong.

-Rusty

Is it a true AP?

[roybadami]

Given that they used the linux-wlan drivers, I suspect that this isn't a true AP (running in BSS mode), unless support for this is now in linux-wlan (they do say they use bleeding edge drivers).

Given they use Prism II hardware, I don't understand why they don't use the hostap drivers.

BSS mode has scalability advantages, because it solves the 'hidden sender' problem. ie even though 802.11 nodes always listen to check that the channel is clear before sending, there is a danger that two nodes at opposite extremes won't be able to hear each other, and will try to send at the same time, resulting in collisions. A true AP, running in BSS mode, helps aleviate this problem.)

802.11b/Wifi and mesh

[war2k1]

Now, I might just be so phenomenally stupid that this isn't even worth thinking about, but, if I had a traditional wireless network, like a linksys ap and a buncha wireless cards, and i were to buid a meshAP, could my current nodes connect with that meshAP?

Could i just plug it in somewhere else in my house and have it work? or, would the mesh have to be separate from the wifi network, with it's own gateway AP?

and if so, could my wife's iBook with an airport card still connect to the mesh?

All of the mesh networking sites seem to think the answer to this question is just so basic so as to be not worth answering...

What is a "Community Mesh"?

[foofboy]

There's a documentation download link here, but it doesn't seem to work. I'm baffled. Everyone is discussing it as though it were a wireless internet access route, but the Newbie Quick Start only mentions cell phone text messaging. What the hell is it, and what is it supposed to do? Is "Locust" a particular "Community Mesh Network"? Is a "Community Mesh Network" an architecture making use of standard protocols? What services does a Community Mesh Network offer? Are the any Community Mesh users or admins who can speak up?

Re:What is a "Community Mesh"?

[foofboy]

Ach! The Documentation link does work. I'm using an NT workstation and it invisibly and helpfully opened the document without providing any visual indication that anything had happened. Please mod the parent down.

Typical free(loading) software hippie

[Thud457]

You sir, would make Santa Claus vomit with rage.

How dare you ignore the sacred societal covenant of the older generation giving out free candy to the youngsters. If you're too old to dress up and go door to door begging for free candy, you should have the decency to stay at home and give out candy to those dewy-eyed tykes.

And don't neglect to "correct" any teenagers that are "too cool" to dress up in a lame costume, but aren't too cool to beg for free candy. You owe it to society.

Channel Contention

[JumboMessiah]

I'm assuming the mesh network all runs on the same channel? How well does this thing scale if, for example, I cover a 1 square mile urban area with 10 nodes and only one of those nodes has a wired connection? I would think that the channel would become saturated rather quickly.

RTFM - here it is.

[NKJensen]

It is a MS Word document, but this answers my own questions

Last Post!

[alpg]

I myself have dreamed up a structure intermediate between Dyson spheres
and planets. Build a ring 93 million miles in radius -- one Earth orbit
-- around the sun. If we have the mass of Jupiter to work with, and if
we make it a thousand miles wide, we get a thickness of about a thousand
feet for the base.

And it has advantages. The Ringworld will be much sturdier than a Dyson
sphere. We can spin it on its axis for gravity. A rotation speed of 770
m/s will give us a gravity of one Earth normal. We wouldn't even need to
roof it over. Place walls one thousand miles high at each edge, facing the
sun. Very little air will leak over the edges.

Lord knows the thing is roomy enough. With three million times the surface
area of the Earth, it will be some time before anyone complains of the
crowding.
-- Larry Niven, "Ringworld"

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