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Knoppix for Rapid Desktop Deployment

heretic108 writes "From first boot to full desktop in 20 minutes! Knoppix has shot into the spotlight as a GNU/Linux distro suitable for demonstrating quality Open Source Software, standing out for its ability to self-configure itself into a vast range of hardware, and to run entirely off a CD boot without interfering with any existing system setup. That, plus its fat catalogue of pre-installed desktop software. But OSS enthusiast David McNab has poked a bit deeper, and found that Knoppix can install itself to disk, resulting in a completely configured GNU/Linux desktop system, ready to use, in 20 minutes, hassle free. CD no longer needed! Best of both worlds - use as a GNU/Linux demo disk, and if the user likes it, it's a snap to install permanently. I can't think of any distro that comes close to this, for ease and speed of setup. I found McNab's short Knoppix Installation Howto which gives a very brief and easy guide. With this rapid setup ability, Debian-based Knoppix makes a great contribution to the catalogue."

126 of 331 comments (clear)

  1. It will never catch on by CatWrangler · · Score: 5, Funny

    No Blue Screen of Death? No individual user licenses? No aborted installs? No minesweeper? Who actually would use this newfangled thing?

    --

    ---
    When you come to a fork in the road, take it! --Yogi Berra--

    1. Re:It will never catch on by rmohr02 · · Score: 2

      Now that I'm booting Linux I'm beginning to miss the good old Windows BSOD.

    2. Re:It will never catch on by rmohr02 · · Score: 2

      Yep. Maybe I should switch to Windows ME.

  2. wonderful, but by dollargonzo · · Score: 5, Interesting

    if it is so wonderful, how come other distributions not use similar hardware detection? we have seen linux distros go in and out, people complain and complain about hardware detection, but we have yet to see one of the bigger distributions adopt a system similar to what knoppix is doing. i mean the worst thing that could happen is could detect the wrong hardware (tough, but possible) and you will have to remove the modules. but otherwise, seems like a win win situation.

    --
    BSD is for people who love UNIX. Linux is for those who hate Microsoft.
    1. Re:wonderful, but by damiam · · Score: 5, Informative

      Other distros do. Mandrake, Red Hat, SeSU all have superb hardware detection. Knoppix is different only in that it detects hardware on startup, which is the only way to make a CD-only, no-install distro.

      --
      It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.
    2. Re:wonderful, but by kh0ng · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Good question. I saw knoppix three weeks ago, when another student gave a Linux/UNIX-Intro. I liked it and thought that, since it was based on it, Debian would be similiar. You can expect how surpried I was when I tried to install Debian. Knoppix might be based on it, but in terms of userfriendlyness its far ahead.

    3. Re: wonderful, but by Black+Parrot · · Score: 4, Informative


      > Other distros do. Mandrake, Red Hat, SeSU all have superb hardware detection. Knoppix is different only in that it detects hardware on startup, which is the only way to make a CD-only, no-install distro.

      FWIW, since around 7.0, Red Hat has re-detected hardware on startup, and will notice if anything has been added, removed, or changed.

      I don't mess with SuSE much, but I vaguely remember that they have been doing it even longer. (Don't quote me on that part, though.)

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    4. Re:wonderful, but by spitzak · · Score: 3, Interesting
      Why not always detect hardware on startup? It takes long enough to boot anyway, and if this works we could feel safe changing *any* hardware in our machines without worrying that it won't reboot.

      If it screws up, then an advanced user could probably store some files that modify it (I guess this requires that it correctly detect the disk and file system these files are on...) Ideally the files should be of the form "If you are detecting xyz, well stop because you are wrong, the hardware really is this..." and not of the form "Don't try to detect xyz because really the hardware is this..." That way if the user pulls the misdetected hardware they can reboot because it will still check for the replacement hardware.

    5. Re: wonderful, but by spongman · · Score: 2
      you quoted him. why?

      That should answer your question.

    6. Re: wonderful, but by wfrp01 · · Score: 4, Funny

      The smiley was to help the humor impaired. Apparently it wasn't sufficient.

      --

      --Lawrence Lessig for Congress!
    7. Re: wonderful, but by bruthasj · · Score: 2

      It's called kudzu. If you want a fast boot, turn it off. If you're going to upgrade a piece of hardware, turn it on.

      For example, I took a hard drive with redhat installed on a 1U server with a souped up configuration and plugged it in to a barebones network computer that used some sucky Cyrix chip and a bunch of different hardware.

      Redhat came up, ran kudzu and the rest of the system ran. It was slower than snot, because of the CPU, but the software did the job.

      Try to do that with other OSes and you'll be hating life.

  3. oops by dollargonzo · · Score: 2

    one exception ofcourse is mandrake, but i have tried it, and well, it doesn't seem to work that well. perhaps the newer versions are better.

    --
    BSD is for people who love UNIX. Linux is for those who hate Microsoft.
  4. Including non-free? by Vagary · · Score: 3, Interesting

    This might be a bit off-topic, but hey, at least I'm not wasting your time with an Ask Slashdot:

    Can someone point me towards a live-CD that includes Flash, RealPlayer, and the ability to play as many multimedia files as possible? OpenOffice and some kind of Gecko browser are also required.

    The reason is that Windows is just not cutting it on my girlfriend's computer. She's having all sorts of weird technical problems so I've decided something needs to be done. Unfortunately, my Debian is so wacked out and constantly tweaked into a semi-usable state that she doesn't trust Linux. So what I need is something she can use for a few weeks -- still accessing her docs on her Windows partition -- until she's sold.

    1. Re:Including non-free? by Lostman · · Score: 2

      Perhaps you should try Knoppix eh?

      Knoppix is a livecd that autodetects and sets up most devices automatically upon boot, it includes open office, mozilla (konquorer [sp?] as well), OODLES of games, graphics programs, utilities, fun programs, and just plain "cool" things. It doesnt contain Flash nor Realplayer (at least I never got them to work), but it does play most of my multimedia content I had on my hard drive (divx, mpegs, avi, etc).

      It autoconnects to internet if you have the ability to use DHCP so thats a big plus. You can access the hard drive from the desktop, open papers/etc from there...

      Best thing -- it doesnt change ANY files on the harddrive! No worries about a "livecd" turning into a "pseudo installation" to run. There IS a way to put a swap file on your hard drive but its buried in menus and I wouldnt even bother with it... Knoppix runs fast, reliable, and just looks nice.

      (And the desktop? You can change it of course.. but I am sure you knew that =)

    2. Re:Including non-free? by Graspee_Leemoor · · Score: 5, Funny

      " So what I need is something she can use for a few weeks -- still accessing her docs on her Windows partition -- until she's sold."

      Dude, there's no need to sell your girlfriend just because she uses Word.

      graspee

    3. Re:Including non-free? by Vagary · · Score: 2

      Wait a sec, I need a reason to convert someone to Linux?! You must be lost: this is *Slashdot*.

      But seriously, her problems are more niggling than just BSODs and I've observed them with fresh installs of 98, 98SE, and ME in the last 4 months.

    4. Re:Including non-free? by Vagary · · Score: 2

      Believe it or not, she's trying to write a *thesis* in *Word*! Crazy, I know. I'm banned from mentioning BibTeX whenever she starts complaining about citation management. And she's already wasted days thanks to proprietary formats. It's a wonder people manage to get any work done in Windows...

    5. Re:Including non-free? by MyHair · · Score: 2

      ...with fresh installs of 98, 98SE, and ME...

      There's your problem right there. Windows 2000 (and I presume XP) is much more stable than the Win9x's. (Yes WinME is a Win9x.)

    6. Re:Including non-free? by Paul+Komarek · · Score: 5, Funny

      Why do people (including Microsoft) always feel the need to point out just how much better the current(-ish) version is than the old one? In one year, you'll still say "There's your problem right there, Windows 2003 is much more stable than Windows 2000".

      If someone shot you last week, but only stabbed you this week, you don't have to thank them.

      -Paul Komarek

    7. Re:Including non-free? by MyHair · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Why do people (including Microsoft) always feel the need to point out just how much better the current(-ish) version is than the old one?

      The commenter's original problem was that Windows kept crashing. He was looking for an alternative that his girlfriend would be happy with. No one could come up with a suitable Linux distro given his requirements, and one person suggested he buy her a Mac or just reinstall Windows and not let her install the addin crap. He said he had the problems even with fresh installs of Win98, Win98SE and WinME.

      I have 7 years of professional experience with Win95, almost 3 years of professional experience with Windows 2000 and Windows NT and various experience with the other Windows versions. Windows 2000 is much more stable than what he used and fills his girlfriend's needs.

      I am pro GNU/Linux, but it's not for everyone, and it's not a multimedia desktop OS for someone who doesn't want to tinker, and if you want Real Player, Flash and "the ability to play as many multimedia files as possible" (from the original question) then any distro of GNU/Linux or *BSD requires much tinkering.

      Personally I think she'd be better off with a Mac. I have a serious woody for Mac OS X, but I don't run it because Apple hardware is just too darn expensive. If someone has the money to burn I'd recommend a Mac with OS X now.

      By the way, Microsoft says the latest version is better because that's how they make their money. God forbid everyone finds out that Word 95 makes docuements just as well and easy as Word 2002.

      In one year, you'll still say "There's your problem right there, Windows 2003 is much more stable than Windows 2000".

      Not me. Windows 2000 is the best Windows I've seen so far. Screw XP. It's Win2k with DRM and eye candy.

      If someone shot you last week, but only stabbed you this week, you don't have to thank them.

      Cute, but show me a desktop OS that you can convince my users to use and my Fortue 500 company IT staff will support and convince the world that MS Word .doc files and MS Excel .xls files are not reasonable standard document formats and you'll be my hero. Give the original poster a GNU/Linux live cd with Flash, Real and massive multimedia support and you'll be his hero. Of course you'd probably get sued by Macromedia and Real Networks, but oh well.

      I did overlook one possibility for his girlfriend's problems: It might be the hardware. It could be a flaky power supply or bad RAM, and then no OS will help his problems. In fact a true 32-bit OS would exacerbate a hardware issue.

    8. Re:Including non-free? by Paul+Komarek · · Score: 2

      I haven't used Windows since about 1999, and have better stomach health because of it; so I can't comment from personal experience. But from what I hear from my wife, a software developer, Win2K still costs her a lot of time in reboots and lockups. Note that she is using almost exclusively Microsoft software and certified drivers at work (in fact, all might be), but she still has lots of problems. The machine appears to be in fine condition.

      But her machine crashes less than it did with Nt and certain combinations of service packs! Woohoo!

      That last bit was sarcasm. And it might not be true.

      -Paul Komarek

    9. Re:Including non-free? by ealar+dlanvuli · · Score: 2

      er word crashes about every other character above 50 pages if you have more than font changes for formating...

      Not to mention the type behind of 10-15 characters at that length.

      you say this is perfectly acceptable from a $300 word processor? I have a bridge to sell you...

      --
      I live in a giant bucket.
    10. Re:Including non-free? by Paul+Komarek · · Score: 2

      I think the take-home part of the lesson is:

      1) Most people happy with Windows don't care much about crashes.

      2) Most people happy with GNU/Linux don't care much about installation or desktops.

      I know which compromise I'd rather make. =-)

      The above summary is woefully inadequate, of course. There are things like functionality, application support, customer support, performance, etc. to consider. All the same, I think the above points provide a useful contrast.

      -Paul Komarek

    11. Re:Including non-free? by TheBracket · · Score: 2

      Speaking as one who has published a 400 page Master's thesis with Word (as well as a great many 100+ page short papers), I have to say that you either have serious system problems or are full of it. Word handles hundreds of pages without issue on a properly setup NT4, Win2k or WinXP system. Admittedly, if you are too dumb to use style-sheets, it slows down a bit.

      --
      Lead developer, http://wisptools.net
    12. Re:Including non-free? by Vagary · · Score: 2

      Yes, this is exactly why I want to try Linux before I start blaming the hardware. Windows not only acts weird on its own, it doesn't respond deterministically or clearly to hardware problems.

    13. Re:Including non-free? by ryanvm · · Score: 2

      I don't know how dedicated you are to the cause, but it is possible to "re-master" Knoppix.

      Basically, you boot Knoppix; copy it to a source partition; customize it however you want; and create an ISO image of the source partition. There are detailed instructions in the "forums" section of the Knoppix web site. It takes about 3 2-gig partitions and about an hour or so of disk-grinding, but it can be very rewarding.

      I've been using custom Knoppix discs to boot thin-clients for an X app server (a la Linux Terminal Server Project). It's just a pilot project at this point, but it's been very successful.

    14. Re:Including non-free? by Planesdragon · · Score: 2

      er word crashes about every other character above 50 pages if you have more than font changes for formating...

      What version? What OS? What system specs?

      Not to mention the type behind of 10-15 characters at that length.

      Better question--what FONT are you using, and what view is she writing in?

      She should use styles for all formating, NOT allow word to create styles, and be doing the main writing either in "normal" view or a single-colum "page layout" view. Unusual fonts, heavy graphic elements, or odd column layouts can cause slowdown--but that's a user problem, not Word's problem.

      I've got a Duron 700 with 128 MB of ram, running Windows XP and Word XP. No problems here, unless I open six seperate programs, tell them all to do something that takes several seconds if they're by themselves, and switch back and forth rapidly--which is a foolish thing to do if I can avoid it.

      Please, stop spreading FUD and start figuring out what the problem is. Word can work with large files--but not if you're running a very old (6.0 or older, I think) version or running on very old (less than Pentium 133* or NT with too little RAM) hardware.

      (I've had Office 2000 running acceptable on a P133 laptop with 32 MB of ram and Win95; it gets a bit buggy with very large documents, but that's a RAM problem, not a word problem.)

    15. Re:Including non-free? by Planesdragon · · Score: 2

      I was once hired by a company to take several of there manuals that they did in Word 5 on Macintosh and update them to Word97 on windows.

      ! Ouch!

      Let me tell you, it was a hoot. Each writer had there own "look". Trying to get everything down to one format with a consistant style was fun.

      Of course, let's not forget that if you have an embed eps graphic on the Mac, when you bring the word document over to windows, the whole 300k of eps is still there, but the only thing that will display on screen or print, is the thumbnail image.


      Double ouch!

      What the @#$ were they using EPS files in documents for? Anything--ANYTHING--would be better than that! PNG, JPEG, BMP even!

      Once we had converted the original eps into a decent wmf file, life still was not good. When you try to build a master document, built up of 15 subdocuments, needing a decent Table of Contents and an Index. Then toss in 30 or 40 half page size graphics. All the files corrupt.

      I think the problem is in the users, not in Word. Probably be a better idea to train them on how to use Word properly and consistently; If they used Styles instead of manual formatting, it'd be simple to align all of the proper styles.

      (And, as I understand it, "Master Documents" are the worst feature in Word. I don't use them myself, at home or at work, so lucky me.)

      Were the task ongoing, I'd suggest using HTM (or TXT) as an intermediate format. The best cure for file corruption is to go to a format that you know is clean, and rebuild the document from "scratch." Probably be easier than trying to fix all of the mistakes...

    16. Re:Including non-free? by sniggly · · Score: 2

      Did you dl & try knoppix on her pc yet? Youve created a long thread here and you owe it to us to let us know :)

      I'm downloading it now to show my girlfriend, whose employers are considering lindows :( so i hope this will make her and them drop their jaw and want it.

      --
      Of those to whom much is given, much is required.
    17. Re:Including non-free? by Vagary · · Score: 2

      No: part of the reason that I'm desperate for a solution is that we're currently living 3 hours apart. If I lived in the same town it wouldn't be a problem trying out all sorts of different configurations. But every time I tried a new version of Windows that was it for 2 or 3 weeks.

      I've told her that she should find a new geek, someone who can fulfill her needs, but she's sentimental... >:)

    18. Re:Including non-free? by sniggly · · Score: 2

      I've heard more women complain about their lack of a geek boyfriend. Apparently the combination of skill and gender is in demand!

      Note from the home front: my gf was very impressed with knoppix and the cd she burned to show it at work never made it back home.

      Note from the ubergeek front: i got frowned upon and am supposed to pocket a credit card sized CD with linux installed. You can't have a linux rescue cd boot disk if it doesnt reside next to credit & atm cards. Ohwell, live & learn!

      --
      Of those to whom much is given, much is required.
  5. How much? by DAldredge · · Score: 5, Funny

    How much is one of these frontpage /. ads? Please contact me, I may be interested in buying one.

    1. Re:How much? by Link310 · · Score: 5, Funny

      It typically costs at least a few hours of downtime on your server, and possibly a surge in bandwidth usage.

      /. is not responsible for increased bandwidth usage due to a slashdotting or any costs incured.

      Please submit ads using the "submit story" link on the side of the page. Things to include:
      * A simple way for people to bash microsoft.
      * Something that can be turned into a beowulf cluster.

    2. Re:How much? by MadFarmAnimalz · · Score: 3, Funny

      frontpage /. ads? FRONTPAGE?!?
      Taco you TURNCOAT.
      So THAT'S what that server migration a few days ago was all about... /me whips out nmap

      --
      Blearf. Blearf, I say.
    3. Re:How much? by tswinzig · · Score: 2

      How much is one of these frontpage /. ads?

      How much does one anonymous /. account cost?

      --

      "And like that ... he's gone."
    4. Re:How much? by abe+ferlman · · Score: 2

      How much is one of these frontpage /. ads? Please contact me, I may be interested in buying one.

      Basically, you have to not sell out, at all. Debian may not always be the latest and greatest, but they have a history of being "free as in freedom" in a way that none of the other distros have been.

      So I applaud some extra publicity for the upstanding folks who keep debian running for the sake of the community.

      --
      microsoftword.mp3 - it doesn't care that they're not words...
  6. Knoppix is just that good... by Lostman · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Just my own little story how Knoppix helped me.. =)

    My fiancee was volunteered to teach a class in algorithm design and c++ programming at the highschool she teaches at (for honors credit) -- the problems, though, were numerous.

    She had to deal with:
    1) NO funds available for purchasing of any programming utilities
    2) Computer ADMIN not allowing her to install ANY programming software (borland freeware, DJGPP, etc) to disk
    3) NOT allowing students to write (even temporary files) to the hard drive...

    We looked at a LOT of different ways to handle these problems. Finally we decided that maybe using a linux livecd and having a disk with gcc/g++ for each student. Looked at a few different types that were mentioned on slashdot but NONE seemed to work well... until we saw a VERY old article that some user mentioned Knoppix.. went to it, d/l'ed it, burned to disk, popped it in and rebooted...

    *WOW*

    Knoppix comes fully loaded with office utilities, games (PLENTY of games), graphics software, but most importantly DEVELOPMENT software already on it. We were in love with it (in truth, my other box is still running it from cd just bc we liked it =) -- even more important was that it ran without the need for ANY files or ANY changes to the hard drive.

    It discovered all devices hooked to my computer and actually had them working (AS WELL as the internet connection from "straight to cable modem" or "over network using ICS" setups we have at my house).

    She took it to her school, popped it in, rebooted the computers (after fidgeting with bios to allow boot from cd, laugh) and QUICKLY came up with the Knoppix desktop. It certainly didnt take more than a min or so to bootup...

    Most surprising thing was that for a "ran from cd" linux it was REMARKEBLY fast. Lets just say I was VERY impressed with Knoppix and recommend it for ANY new person. Without the threat of "ruining their computer," they can just pop in knoppix to try out linux... if they hate it, pop it out and its finished.

    So in the end, fiancee's school didnt have to shell out money, didnt "screw up the computers" (sigh), have a setup for students to write and compile programs, and exposed students (and teachers) to Linux. I would say the entire situation was a big WIN =)

    1. Re:Knoppix is just that good... by Lostman · · Score: 2

      AFAIK their choices come from 2 parts
      1) They dont want to frigg up their systems with apps like AIM, ICQ, etc so they dont allow anything to be ran... zero tolerance for software it seems =)
      2) I believe they had an incident a few years ago when they still allowed students to write to hard drives. Without going into any details, lets just say that the admin strongly believes that students should not be ablet o change the hard drive in any way.

    2. Re:Knoppix is just that good... by Lostman · · Score: 2

      Thought that myself... but, like any highschool class, there are periods where they have free time. She figures the games will be there for that -- besides, it will be obvious if people arnt putting forth effort in their work as it should be turned in (their disks) every day.

      Now the INTERNET applications it has -- huge amount of them but not the kind the school probably wants students playing with -- just gotta make sure they dont start firing up the wrong internet apps heh..

  7. Knoppix==Awesome by FreeLinux · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Knoppix is a GREAT distro. I regularly give it to people to try out Linux. It also makes a great recovery disk. I can go anywhere and pop it into a PC with a CD-ROM drive and it boots giving me all the tools I need.

    What? Your Windows 2000 server's dynamic disk has crashed, again? No problem. Insert Knoppix. Copy /mnt/WINNT to /mnt/GoodDisk. Have a nice day.

  8. one of the pleasant things about knoppix by timothy · · Score: 4, Informative

    ... is the sheer number of packages included on a *single* CD ROM. It's incredible. (Plus, they tend to be quite recent versions, and with some programs, like the excellent and promising Scribus, that's important because progress is rapid.)

    Also, if you want to show someone the sheer variety of free and Free browsers available with Linux, Scribus has konqueror, mozilla, dillo, not to mention text-based ones as well.

    It's an amazing distro -- demoware that really works. Anecdote: I have used Knoppix, from the CD, as my only OS for several days when using a borrowed laptop on which I could not politely do an OS swap. Except a slight slowness with the CD up-and-down-spinning, it was hard to tell I wasn't just using a recent Debian system installed normally.

    timothy

    --
    jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5
  9. Uhh... by FreeLinux · · Score: 2

    Have you tried Knoppix? Did you read the article? I would think that Knoppix would fit your bill perfectly.

    Did I just get trolled?

    1. Re:Uhh... by Vagary · · Score: 2

      It's missing Flash, RealPlayer, and Gecko. Why didn't you just recommend I install VMS? Or perhaps you didn't bother to read my post...

    2. Re:Uhh... by Vagary · · Score: 2

      Yeah, you're right, sorry. Galeon'd be nice, though.

  10. knopix worked great on my laptop...... by the_2nd_coming · · Score: 2, Interesting

    except it used the OSS sound system and the OSS module for my soundcard does not work...if it used ALSA I would be very happy.

    --



    I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
  11. Re:Big Deal by rusty0101 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Never having run Windows XP, could you tell me if it will run from the CD without touching my hard disk? I might be interested in trying it out, but I don't want to loose any data in the process.

    -Rusty

    --
    You never know...
  12. VMWare by HeelToe · · Score: 3, Interesting

    One really neat use of this would be to bundle VMWare into the CD dist so that you could actually drop the CD into a machine you don't trust (maybe your employer's?) to be free of keystroke loggers, etc.

    Use Linux for any "private" work you want to do, use encryption tools (ssh, tunneling, etc.) to get out your corporate firewall to a trusted machine, and then simply run your other operating system inside VMWare for doing your work.

    Does Knoppix make it easy to add new things into the cd image?

    1. Re:VMWare by bstadil · · Score: 3, Informative
      Does Knoppix make it easy to add new things into the cd image?

      Yes, As long as you keep inside the size limit. I removed some of the Demos on the ISO and included a brainwave relaxing program AutoZen to run on my my Girlfriend's Windows machine. Worked fine.

      WmWare workstation is only 11Meg so you should be OK.

      --
      Help fight continental drift.
    2. Re:VMWare by Gumber · · Score: 2

      Cool idea.

    3. Re:VMWare by t · · Score: 2, Interesting
      I too thought this. For the lamers, yes I have a legally purchased copy of vmware. What I wanted to do was to combine knoppix with vmware and an appropriate version of windows. Vmware has the lovely feature of working in non-commit mode. This allows you to screw around, launch trojans, virus etc willy nily and just quit vmware whenever you feel like it and be exactly where you started. No roll-back or backups utilities required. I have used this for an obnoxious dsl installer that wouldn't tell me the info I needed, more relevant to the cable modem installer article I guess.

      unfortunately... licensing, size etc of windows is ridiculous.

      win98 I believe will sit in less than 400MB, but from what I recall win2k can hit 800MB. fubar. The only way I think this will work will be with dvd-r's. I imagine that would be ideal for a company that does testing, have your employees use a knoppix-like dvd with win98/me/2k/... for testing. Perhaps lnx-bbc could be used for this purpose since they target the biz card cds which are only around 50MBs.

      I also wondered if it would be possible to have vmware run the installed version of windows on the harddrive in non-commit mode. (This doesn't solve the keystroke loggers etc... problems)

      I also wish vmware would fix the fucking problems with audio in multimedia. How goddamn hard could it be?

  13. Re:Big Deal by uchian · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Yeah, but installing Windows XP is the equvalent of only installing the Linux kernel, XFree86 and the KDE packages. Once you add the time on to install all of the games, Office software, development tools, etc that Knoppix already comes with, that installation time doesn't look nearly as impressive.

  14. I've got to respect this.. by Raleel · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I'm not normally a debian zealot, and by me using the term zealot, you can figure out what I think of people who constantly tell me that I'm wrong for using redhat and mandrake. That having been said, I've really got to respect this. Well done.

    Personally, I don't care about having 10 different editors, but I'm sure some people do. I can almost live entirely off of the redhat 8.0 personal desktop (I have other machines to compile on), save for the lack of mp3-ability out of the box (freshrpms, I love you) and dvd-ability (again, go freshrpms). But the ability to do something like this, be able to just install it on to a hard drive, type a single command for updates, no registering or anything, and continue on, is very nice.

    I think this years install fest will see a lot more debian installs than it will redhat or mandrake because of this.

    --
    -- Who is the bigger fool? The fool or the fool who follows him? --
  15. There's another one by OrangeHairMan · · Score: 4, Informative

    There's another Debian-based bootable distro, called LNX-BBC. It is only 50 megs, but you can still install Debian from it and apt-get all the packages you want.

    http://www.lnx-bbc.org/

    1. Re:There's another one by D_Gr8_BoB · · Score: 2
      This thing is fantastic. It's amazing the things you can fit into 50 megs - basically every command line program you'd want except Emacs and man pages, plus minimal X support.

      For a really quality experience, modify the image to boot to a win95 boot disk image with stuff like fdisk and format, and include loadlin and NTFS dos drivers on the image. You can then use it to fix just about any system. Best of all, it still fits on a credit card sized CD that I keep in my wallet.

  16. Re:No writable hard drive? by Lostman · · Score: 5, Informative

    Wrongo buckaroo!

    Read the knoppix documentation... it does not, by default, install ANYTHING to ANY hard drive.. you have the option to put a swap file ont he hard drive but you have to select it =)

    Look down the page http://www.knopper.net/knoppix/index-en.html and you will see about what it does and does not do. NO installation or modifying of the hard drives are necessary -- with computers without necessary ram it will run SLOWER but it will still run.

    Besides, its a worthless argument =) Their computers most definately have 128 mb ram...

  17. For rapid desktop development? by WetCat · · Score: 2

    Is it only me who misread the article header?
    A rapid desktop deployment for Debian system is not "news that matter", a working rapid desktop development system - a competitor to Kylix can be that news...

  18. I can beat that. by sakusha · · Score: 4, Interesting

    20 minutes? Bah. My old vintage 1975 Sol-20 boots SOLOS from ROM in under a second. I can install a new OS ROM in seconds, it is conveniently provided on a ROM cart that pops in and out of a slot in the back. I can load BASIC or ASM-80 from Cassette Tape in under 2 minutes.
    Yeah, yeah, before you mod this down, just think a sec, I'm only trying to show how ludicrous this "time to first boot" is, as a measure of an OS.

    1. Re:I can beat that. by drinkypoo · · Score: 2
      What exactly does SOLOS do? I bet you can count the significant functions of the operating system on one hand. Knoppix on the other hand is linux, which does more shit than you can reasonably discuss the ramifications of in 64k.

      I had a kaypro 4 which ran cp/m, hardly the oldest computer around but it illustrates a point. CP/M does jack shit; It does nothing but provide a system through which other applications can be loaded. It loads fast, but who cares? It gets kicked out of memory when you load an application. It hardly does anything.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    2. Re:I can beat that. by sakusha · · Score: 2

      SOLOS has a full VT-100 terminal, this CPU was used daily on the FedWire banking system, it was used to transfer millions of dollars every week. Sometimes CPU power is irrelevant. I also used it to write assembly language programs for process control, running a variety of motors and measurement devices in a lab.

    3. Re:I can beat that. by drinkypoo · · Score: 2
      My point is that the OS provides very few services. I could write a vt100 terminal emulator with relatively little trouble, and I wouldn't consider myself a programmer by any stretch. Linux, on the other hand, is equivalent to an old-timey OS *and* a whole bunch of applications with nothing but the kernel and init. In fact, if you have the kernel, init, and the bourne shell, you can (with a lot of documentation) get from that point to basically anywhere, given enough time and skill.

      So time-to-load is significant when your OS does so much. SOLOS might load in nanoseconds but it doesn't do what a modern OS does.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    4. Re:I can beat that. by macshit · · Score: 2

      So time-to-load is significant when your OS does so much. SOLOS might load in nanoseconds but it doesn't do what a modern OS does.

      Hmmm, well, how about linux? My embedded boards boot linux (2.4.x or 2.5.x) to a shell in less than a second -- and much of that time seems to be the timing loop that computes `bogomips' and the time required to send all the boot messages to the serial console (running at 115200 baud).

      [oh, also, these boards are pretty pokey, by modern standards: the fastest one has a 200MHz processor, the slowest 50MHz (the latter with no cache, and lots of wait-states for main memory access!)]

      --
      We live, as we dream -- alone....
    5. Re:I can beat that. by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      I would assume that you're removing a significant number of drivers and other crap.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    6. Re:I can beat that. by macshit · · Score: 2
      Well, it's just like any linux system, I've configured in those drivers that I use -- and in this case, that doesn't include disks :-).... but you're right, the fact that it's not reading stuff off a disk probably accounts for a lot of the speedup.

      When my desktop debian systems boot, the major obvious time hogs during initial startup I've noticed are:
      1. BIOS
      2. X + Gnome stuff
      3. Postfix

      (1) is by far the worst, and is probably mostly unnecessary; I assume it's caused by 15-year-old crap legacy code + ultra-conservative operation (long timeouts etc) intended to deal with crap legacy devices. (2) I guess is unavoidable (right now anyway); X & Gnome are just big bloated systems. (3) Confuses me, I don't know why a MTA takes so long to start up (though I love Postfix generally); probably whatever it's doing could be safely done in the background though.

      I think a desktop system that just got rid of the legacy BIOS and used something a bit more reasonable would be much more pleasant to boot...
      --
      We live, as we dream -- alone....
    7. Re:I can beat that. by drinkypoo · · Score: 2
      Well, the sad thing about the BIOS is that it's all real mode code, operating systems which always run in protected mode never use the BIOS after boot. Most modern operating systems also re-initialize all PnP hardware so the BIOS' efforts there are wasted as well.

      There's that linux bios project that replaces the BIOS with a kernel image, but it only runs on a small subset of hardware, so it is of limited usefulness. It's a step in the right direction.

      It would be nice if any init scripts which were not depended on by anyone (gentoo, at least, has dependencies recorded in init scripts. I don't know if any other distribution is doing this) would be started asynchronously. Even better, I can envision a scenario in which one item (say, a MTA) is needed only by a ML Manager (for example) and therefore the MTA init should only hold up the MLM init.

      X is bloated for sure, but I don't suppose it's more bloated than Win32's GUI, it's just slower. :)

      If you want a good laugh disassemble your PC's BIOS sometime. You'll see a lot of XOR reg,reg operations. XOR of a register with itself is the fastest way to clear it on x86; Motorola has a clear register operation.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    8. Re:I can beat that. by macshit · · Score: 2

      BTW, I should note that this is one huge advantage of the aforementioned embedded systems -- the reset vector jumps directly to the kernel in ROM, no BIOS at all. Just about the only thing it does before the generic linux startup is write a few critical control registers (memory refresh etc) and copy the kernel's data segment to RAM.

      I guess you can tell, I really get a kick out of pressing the reset button and BAM! up pops a shell prompt... :-)

      --
      We live, as we dream -- alone....
  19. Knoppix is kool... by dcuny · · Score: 2, Interesting
    I got a copy from CheapBytes. Very cool. I've handed out more than a dozen copies since then. People are a lot more willing to try it out once they find out it won't touch your hard drive (unless you want it to).

    It's come in handy a couple of times, like when my hard drive flaked out. I talked my non-techie wife through setting up KPPP and KMail over the phone so she had internet access. (Fortunately, it was just a loose cable)

    I've used DemoLinux before that, as well as the SUSE demo CD, but Knoppix is much nicer. The only feature I miss is DemoLinux's ability to anchor part of the file system to the hard drive...

    All in all, a very nice distribution.

  20. This is just what I have been looking for. by man_ls · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I've just gotta say, thanks Slashdot. This is what I've been looking for.

    One of the major reasons I was very reluctant to try Linux out (I'm a dedicated Win2K admin) was that it would require me to re-partition a disk for an ext3 filesystem.

    Well, seeing as how each and every one of my drives are NTFS Dynamic Volumes, there's no chance in hell that Linux is going to be able to read (or even repartition) them, and neither will most other software. So, it's a total wipeout if I wanted to try it.

    I'm downloading the ISO of this right now; I can get a chance to use Linux without *installing* Linux this way. In essence, what I've wanted for a long time.

    1. Re:This is just what I have been looking for. by jbolden · · Score: 2

      I use Knoptic and NTFS. Knoptic reads but not writes NTFS fine. As for its use as a Linux distribution its slightly worse than an installed version of the major Linux distributions as a desktop. For server apps the major distributions are much better.

      A strong recommendation for something that takes no time to install. Only problem I've had with it is that the destkop doesn't handle passing arguments to the kernel at boot time the right way.

  21. Re:Deja-BSD - and more by vik · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Yeah, but it comes with 2GB of apps, boots into KDE, GNOME or WindowMaker, and even sets itself up as a PXE boot network server for diskless machines.

    To be honest, it also impresses the pants off Windows users and is very likely to convert them to Open Source software. There they are used to Windows products and have been told Linux is too hard. Then along comes this CD, they insert it, boot, and a fully-fledged Linux app with OpenOffice, Mozilla, network, sound and lots of toys rises before them without them having to type or do *anything*.

    That's why I put it on the NZ PC World cover disk.

    Vik :v)

  22. irresponsible by Gizzmonic · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Do not, I repeat do not force a nontechnical person to use Linux. Your job as a "computer person" that your friends and family trusts is to make the computer experience easier, not harder.

    Yes, Windows sucks. If it's having that many problems, see if you can roust up a copy of Win2000 or WinXP. But if you force your girlfriend to use Linux, she will probably end up frustrated and hating it (and maybe even hating you).

    Then, in a few years, when Linux is ready for the desktop (if that happens) then she won't want to try it.

    If you really think Windows sucks too much for her to use, maybe you should look into getting her a Mac. Forcing nontechnical people to use Linux is not the way to win friends, or spread good feelings for the operating system.

    --
    (-1, Raw and Uncut is the only way to read)
    1. Re:irresponsible by Vagary · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Do you have a good metric for testing whether Linux is ready for the desktop? I'm not sure that it is, but it's got to be better than the shit she's struggling with now.

      We're starving university students, therefore Macs are entirely out of the question (she's wanted a Mac ever since reading Microserfs). I doubt her aging hardware's ability to run Win2k (or else I would have already tried it) and so it's even less likely to handle XP. But really, should a new computer be required just to word process, web browse (including multimedia content), and listen to music? (Seriously, that's all she does. But for some reason WindowsME can't even do that.)

    2. Re:irresponsible by uchian · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Do not, I repeat do not force a nontechnical person to use Linux.

      Wha? No, wrong. My mother ain't technical and can use Linux just fine.

      What you should say is do not force a non-technical person to ADMIN a Linux box. But then again, you shouldn't let a non-technical person admin any box unless you want to have to fix it every other week. I have to keep cleaning all of the games off of my Aunt's computer because she doesn't understand the concepts of "limited hard drive space" and "uninstalling stuff" no matter how short I make the words I use.

    3. Re:irresponsible by kubla2000 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Nice troll!

      Linux not ready for the desktop? Have you read the article? Have you tried the cd? It's amazing what a good distro can do.

      Setting up printing as is as easy as clicking through a wizard, same with changing video settings, scanners, etc, etc, etc. How the arse do you justify spreading this kind of FUD? Do you get confused because the widgets look a little differently from your win98 desktop?

      In the last several months, I've given away about 20 knoppix cds directly (indirectly, by running Linux training courses for which students use Knoppix, I've given away many more). It's all down to experience. Once users get used to a slightly improved (and hence, different) way of doing things, they're all over Linux.

    4. Re:irresponsible by cornice · · Score: 2
      "Do not, I repeat do not force a nontechnical person to use Linux. Your job as a "computer person" that your friends and family trusts is to make the computer experience easier, not harder."

      Huh? Isn't this a bit over the top? The guy can do the install and make sure all the right apps are installed and configured. He can get the networking right. He could even install Crossover and Win4Lin (If you have to reboot Windows it might as well take 15 seconds) if necessary.

      Sure, Linux may not be able to fit into every fat32 formatted American mind just yet but it is stable and it is easy to use. Aside from the install and the interoperability issues (because MS Office won't play nice) Linux makes a fine desktop. (Yea, I know Linux is quick and easy to install. It's just that Linux installs offer more choices than most. People usually don't like choices when it comes to the computer.)

      "But if you force your girlfriend to use Linux, she will probably end up frustrated and hating it (and maybe even hating you)."

      Wow, that's a bit harsh. Boot a CD, loose a girlfriend. If that's all it takes then she won't last long anyway. I get your point but I think it applies more to Wal~Mart PCs. Those don't come with Debian hacking boyfriends.

    5. Re:irresponsible by jbolden · · Score: 2

      Multimedia web browsing is one of the most CPU intensive application jumps to go mainstream in a long time. The only reason the 8 meg of ram 386's aren't usable today is web browsing. Other than that virtually everything else the mainstream user wants worked fine under Windows 3.1. Anyway the system requirements for Win2000 are not that high if she has 64 megs I think its a doable switch.

      The big problem is that:

      a) She likes windows products: flash, real, quicktime, word

      b) She is not technical

      c) You can't mention a single advantage of Linux for her uses

      Anyway if she really wants a Mac you may want to check out the used powermacs on Ebay. For a grand you can get a system as good as the modern iMacs that comes loaded with software.

    6. Re:irresponsible by llamaluvr · · Score: 2, Funny
      If you really think Windows sucks too much for her to use, maybe you should look into getting her a Mac
      Modern Wedding Anniversary Gifts:

      First - Clocks
      Second - China
      Third - Crystal/Glass
      Fourth - Appliances
      Fifth - Silverware
      Sixth - Candy/Iron
      Seventh - Desk Sets
      Eighth - Bronze/Pottery
      Ninth - Linen/Lace
      Tenth - A MacIntosh

      I think that's a little more commitment then our buddy is looking for here. Maybe a low-end PC would be okay for a "just thinking of you (and your computer troubles)" gift, but a MacIntosh? That's at least the equivilent of an engagement ring (and costs about the same, too!)!
      --
      Insightful: 76, Off-Topic: 379, Flamebait: 24, Funny: 152, Interesting: 201, Underrated: 55, Troll: 9, Total: 896
    7. Re: irresponsible by Gizzmonic · · Score: 2
      You click an icon and a program runs.

      Sometimes. I have enough trouble myself getting Linux GUI programs to work reliably. Even stuff like Open Office will sometimes open a huge window that takes over half the screen, without revealing the close widget. Or when Mplayer ignores your preferences and won't respond to clicking the radio button? Do you want to explain to your girlfriend to how to kill and restart processes on the command line? How about working out dependency conflicts?

      Girls shouldn't be exposed to such mind-boggling exercises.

      You need to respect the fact that not everyone ones to mess around with their computers all day. Most people want the path of least resistance between them and the task to be done. They don't want to fight with conf files, GUI apps that lack consistency and maturity, and no tech support.

      If you are there for her to fix the computer all the time, then it might be okay. But realize that the crashes that come with Windows are much less of a problem for the nontechnical than wrangling with the complexities of Linux.

      Also, an environment like KDE which has the look and feel of Windows, but doesn't have the full functionality, can bring expectations. When the desktop looks like Windows, but doesn't work exactly like Windows (such as cut and paste), it is very easy for people to dismiss Linux as merely a third-rate Windows impostor. Which hurts your credibility as the "trusted computer person" and unfairly hurts perception of Linux.

      --
      (-1, Raw and Uncut is the only way to read)
    8. Re:irresponsible by sniggly · · Score: 2

      Same here, my mother hadn't used computers since DOS and so all graphical desktops were new to her. Same learning curve be it windows or linux. Linux is cheaper, KDE3 extremely jazzy and Knoppix should have debian apt get so when sshing into her computer i can install whatever just fine.

      Oh and she doesnt get BSOD and wont have to pay for XP or Win2k just to avoid BSOD.

      --
      Of those to whom much is given, much is required.
  23. It was on NZ PC World by vik · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I got Knoppix onto the cover CD of PC World in New Zealand and I hear there is a possibility it may go on the Australian version - write encouragement to the Ed and ask if it can be had from the Kiwis (the answer will be yes, I guarantee it :).

    We had to cut it down to 350MB to fit the sponsor's Windows games and so forth on the CD too (thanks Eaden at Opentech) so no OpenOffice, but the reader response we got was incredible. See this and search for "Knoppix" for the feedback.

    Vik :v)

  24. Re:Mini CD Version by marathonmannen · · Score: 2, Informative

    There is KiX. You will find it in the contrib directory on the knoppix mirrors or somemore info in German (you might want to babelfish it ;-)

    --
    Live's to short - do another mile.
  25. Knoppix as a Christmas gift by oob · · Score: 3, Interesting

    After reading the comments here Knoppix has just become my default Christmas gift to friends and family. The opportunity to quickly and easily expose new users to Linux without altering their current environment is a magnificent opportunity to "spread the gospel."

    I'm planning to bundle the CD with two sheets of paper, one showing how to start and use it and explaing that it won't interfere with the ordinary function of the computer concerned and the other David McNabb's HDD install HOWTO.

    Then in January I'm going to apply for a position in the marketing department of AOL, I'll have all the required skills :)

  26. No. by FreeLinux · · Score: 2

    No Knoppix does not require a hard drive at all. Inserting the CD and booting Knoppix creates a RAM disk for swap space and symlinks to the rest of the OS on CD. Knoppix runs entirely from RAM and the CD. Knoppix does not touch your hard disk!!!!

    However, Knoppix does a great job of detecting all present disks and sets up the FSTAB to allow you to access any of the disk partitions. This is read-only acess by default. Knoppix creates desktop icons for each of the disk partitions. Should you need to access data on the hard disk(read-only by default) simply click the icon and Knoppix auto-mounts the partition, ext2/3, fat, fat32, NTFS, what have you.

    Knoppix is awesome and WELL worth the download! Although I suspect that the mirrors are being Slashdotted right now. :(

  27. OT: VMware alternative by ism · · Score: 3, Informative

    There is BOCHS, but it emulates every x86 instruction, rather than being optimized for specifically running an OS. The developers (in the FAQ) do not recommended for the purpose you intend. I have not tried it.

    Plex86 touts itself as *the* free (as in speech and beer) alternative. I have not tried this either.

    Connectix makes Virtual PC, which is not free. I have not tried it.

    1. Re:OT: VMware alternative by hysterion · · Score: 2
      On Mac hardware, there'd be an excellent free alternative: Mac-on-Linux.

      (Allows you to tun your Mac OS 9 on top of Linux PPC -- similar to OS X's Classic environment. IIUC, Plex86 would do the same for Wintel... right? Given the potential audience, I never quite understood why there isn't a Win-on-Linux. Is it that much harder?)

      Which leaves the question, is there anything like knoppix for the PowerPC?

  28. This is sort of the Anti-Gentoo! by Jeremiah+Cornelius · · Score: 2
    God,

    Gentoo is neat - but if you compile it all...

    I'm on day three of install and config - Single 733MHz+ 1GB RAM and a 1.5Mb net connection!

    Thought I'd finally dig into this guy, 'cos I was intrigued by out-of-the-box EVMS.

    Looks like my next install will be Knoppix. Just to keepa broad perspective on things!

    --
    "Flyin' in just a sweet place,
    Never been known to fail..."
    1. Re:This is sort of the Anti-Gentoo! by Shelled · · Score: 2

      Two and a half of those days are probably KDE and Gnome. :)

  29. SuSE do by IamTheRealMike · · Score: 3, Informative
    SuSE do an excellent Live CD. It can be downloaded from their FTP site and has pretty bootup screens, latest KDE with custom artwork, Mozilla, OpenOffice etc.

    Some other stuff it does well - it'll store swap, config and home directory on files in the first windows harddisk with enough space it can find. That means you can in fact use it as your primary OS if you're happy with not being able to add new software and slow bootup times. You can reconfigure, write docs and so on, and it'll all be saved to disk.

  30. Uhh... again by FreeLinux · · Score: 2

    Check out Knoppix. It has Galeon. It was up to Gnome 2.0, although KDE is the default desktop, but recently Knopper fell back to an earlier version of Gnome because he was having a lot of problems with 2.0. I would expect him to return to 2.x once the bugs are worked out.

    The only thing it doesn't have is Flash and Real Player because of licensing issues with those products.

    1. Re:Uhh... again by kubla2000 · · Score: 2

      And Flash and RealPlayer are vital for her. I'm going to have trouble enough convincing her to live without QuickTime...

      xine now does Sorenson quicktime. xine is included in Knoppix. There's a mozilla plugin in the works.

    2. Re:Uhh... again by Vagary · · Score: 2

      >Poor COLLEGE students? Shouldn't you introduce her to .avi, divx, and a little friend known as P2P?

      Alas, none of those have good web integration. She needs RealPlayer for listening to online radio stations and watching movie trailers. And I think Flash is just kinda required to see the whole net nowadays.

      >(and their are howtos out there that explain in detail how to roll your on Live ISO from any distro)

      There are? Point me to em! I'm not finding anything definitive (eg: discusses hardware detection) in Google...

  31. Re:No writable hard drive? by Vagary · · Score: 2

    Oh yeah, schools teach children very carefully about saving everything to floppies. Unfortunately most teachers fail to mention that you should have your work saved to more than 1 floppy! I remember ScanDisking for mere sector scraps the floppies of many a future teacher while living in residence...

  32. Include Knoppix with magazines! by Fragmented_Datagram · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It would be really slick if computer magazines started including a free Knoppix CD. People could try out Linux for the first time without touching their current installation.

  33. Re:a RAM disk for swap space by FreeLinux · · Score: 3, Informative

    Yes, that's right. Remember that Knopppix was initially intended as a demo CD. The most important criteria was for it to not use a hard drive. But, Linux really likes to know that it has a swap partition even if it doesn't really need one. Knoppix fools Linux into thinking it has a swap partition by creating a small one in RAM. Knoppix also loopback mounts a crompressed file system tree which is accessed via symlinks in the / (root) tree but, the tree is a RAM disk. It is a beutiful piece of trickery to get Linux to run with NO HARD DRIVE AT ALL!

  34. Re:Easiest Debian install??? by LittleLebowskiUrbanA · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Dude, just try Libranet. Easiest Debian install you don't have to pay for. Download the 2.0 version for free, edit the /etc/apt/sources.list to testing or unstable, apt-get update, apt-get upgrade, apt-get dist-upgrade, and you're done.

  35. Impressive, but... by be-fan · · Score: 2

    I'm quite impressed at this distro, and I do realize how hard it is to autodetect the wide range of hardware that Linux supports. However, I still find it humerous that back in the day, the time it took to install BeOS was almost entirely determined by the speed of your CD-ROM drive :)

    --
    A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
  36. Re:No writable hard drive? by vonsneerderhooten · · Score: 2, Informative

    Knoppix doesn't mount the hard drive

    Think again dildo. Have you ever used linux, or even knoppix for that matter? Just because there's no swap file, doesnt mean that it doesnt MOUNT the drives. It doesnt modify the hard drive but it DOES mount every volume it can. Precisely why it makes a good diagnostic tool and recovery agent. Try it some time, and see if you can read your hard drive.

    -D

  37. Re: Maybe a stupid idea but... by Black+Parrot · · Score: 2


    > Would it be possible to take a snapshot of memory just after a sucessful first time boot and just load it for "speed boots"?.

    DEC was working on that for VMS over a decade ago. Don't know how it turned out, though, 'cause that's when I got out of the VMS environment.

    --
    Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
  38. Re:Including non-free? QWZX by Vagary · · Score: 2

    She works on the thesis both from home and the library. Maybe she's not paying attention when the format conversion boxes pop up but for whatever reason she's shown up at either place and realised that the latest copy is in a format that can be read at only one of the locations. As a result, she either has to merge diffs or find something else to do until she can get back to a converter.

  39. good use at school by exism · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I've personally used Knoppix off and on in my C++ class at school. All the computers run Win98 along with Borland something, anti-virus, and some sort of lock down software. With everything they have on there it takes an extensive amount of time to even compile a simple program. I seem to make everyone a little jealous since I can compile any program in a fraction of a time it takes them, besides a screen/vim/gcc setup without X is much more productive then the Borland crap. On another note, when I got braver, I used parted on the knoppix cd to resize the windows partition and installed a copy of debian. I didn't install and bootloader and just use a floppy to boot it up. When the school year is over i just resize the partition back and no one will ever know. :)

    --
    ~ j campbell
    1. Re:good use at school by man_ls · · Score: 2

      I'm going to do this.

      But:

      How do you compile in Linux?

  40. Re:initial concerns by dcuny · · Score: 3, Informative
    If it boots and runs off CD, does that mean I can't use my cd drive?

    Unfortunately, that's correct.

    If I change some settings, won't they be lost when I reboot?

    It will allow you to save some of your settings to floppy. For example, I can save my network settings. However, I have to run the network setup tool (under the Knoppix menu) to get them to work.

    Lastly, what package manager does it use?

    I think so, although you can ckeck Knoppix forum for a definitive answer. The people have been quite helpful there.

  41. Re:No writable hard drive? by Lostman · · Score: 3, Informative

    Excellent question... I will hope you still read this but its a bit after this was posted so shrug...

    Students each have a disk that they have their source code on (they write the code to the disk). We compile onto the disk and the executable remains on the disk. Students turn in their disks (along with algorithms (ie their funny little flowcharts)) to be graded.

    It was a good question... we STILL have to have a disk even though now we dont have to put the development apps on there... I say it was a very good trade. =)

  42. Can be very useful, but... by Ed+Avis · · Score: 2

    A bootable Linux CD like Knoppix can be very handy when you are stranded out of reach of a Linux box.

    Case in point: I went away this weekend to a fairly remote part of the north Devon countryside, armed only with a Win98-powered Toshiba laptop with built-in modem (and an external modem). I hoped that I'd be able to dial up to my ISP (handy emergency ISP for those in Britain: 0845 206 6050, username totalserve, password totalserve), download the Putty ssh client and read my mail. I was expecting some maybe-important messages.

    In one of the bizarre screwups that occasionally reminds me why I normally use Linux and not Windows, I could dial up and ping things but not make HTTP connections to any host. I tried to investigate but there wasn't much I could do. Definitely a software problem (like I said, DNS and pinging were fine), and hard to investigate with only vanilla Win98 tools.

    Realizing this I remembered the Knoppix CD I had at home. If only I had brought it with me! So I telephoned home and spoke to my brother, asked him to find the CD ('what? you don't keep it in a case? won't it get scratched?' - no, CD cases are AFAICT superfluous) and post it to me. 'Stick it to a bit of card', I said, 'and post it to me first class'.

    That was on Thursday evening and I knew that the CD could not arrive until Saturday - that's today. I thought it had failed to arrive, but it eventually got here late in the morning. Sure enough the disc was stuck on to an octogon of cut-out cardboard using a single strip of masking tape across the diameter. (That's the kind of rough yellow tape that doesn't stick on very hard.)

    I eagerly peeled off the masking tape, it was a bit harder to remove than I had expected but I peeled off the tape up to the hole at the centre of the disc. Then I peeled from the centre towards the other edge - and instantly the tape ripped off and with it the silver backing of about a quarter of the CD. I'm left with just transparent plastic where the silver has peeled away. I know that CDs have insane levels of error correction, but of course it would be futile to try sticking the tape back again in roughly the same place and seeing if the CD still works. (I tried it anyway.)

    Like that story where the last man on earth's glasses get smashed when he enters the library. That's the cliche that came to mind.

    So the moral of the story is: Debian and Knoppix may be very stable and robust Linux distributions. But the CDs on which they are distributed are quite literally 'flaky'. Don't try sticking them on to things with tape!

    Epilogue - I found that the Windows installation sensibly had the original .cab and setup.exe files lying around in c:\windows\options, so I reinstalled Win98 from that. That is how I am able to post this message to Slashdot.

    --
    -- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
  43. live test by sireenmalik · · Score: 4, Interesting

    To test the new computer i was buying (and getting), i took my Knoppix CD along.

    I bought the box which caused the least trouble!

    Knoppix was more than helpful :)

    --


    Voltaire: God is dead.
    God: Voltaire is dead!
  44. Swap Space on an existing partition? by PunchMonkey · · Score: 2

    Knoppix mentions that the system will run faster if it can create a swap partition on the drive of the computer it's installed on.

    Why is it that swap space can't be used on an existing partition? It seems that it'd be to knoppix's advantage if it (optionally) allowed you to use an existsing FAT32/NTFS/EXT2 partition for temporary swap space while it runs.

    I mean, Windows does this and look at how great it runs!

    OK, I was just kidding with that last part, but I'd still like to know why this hasn't been done :-)

    --
    I'll have something intelligent to add one of these days...
    1. Re:Swap Space on an existing partition? by Jerf · · Score: 2

      There are two different kind of swap "spaces": Partition-based and file-based.

      File-based is what you are used to, and what Windows tends to use.

      Linux uses partition-based. It's faster, since you don't have to deal with a filesystem, and more space-efficient, same reason. However, it does mean that it completely consumes your partition and fills it with what will look like random garbage to anything trying to access it like the partition has a filesystem.

      Thus, there is technically nothing stopping you from using a windows partition as a swap partition; in fact, I once did that as a joke, on purpose. But you should be aware that you will completely and unrecoverably blow away anything residing on that partition the moment you use it. (Later I re-partitioned the disk to shrink the swap down, as using the whole Windows space as swap was too much. It was just sort of funny, the idea of Linux using Windows as a scratch space...)

    2. Re:Swap Space on an existing partition? by Peaker · · Score: 2

      Linux supports file-based swap space.

      I just read some manpages and figured out one way to do it, though I'm not sure its the "right way", because its just something I sketched up now:

      Use dd to create a swap file of the wanted size:
      dd if=/dev/zero of=SWAP-FILENAME bs=512 size=SWAP-FILE-SIZE/0.5K
      Use mkswap to convert the file to swap format:
      mkswap SWAP-FILENAME SWAP-FILE-SIZE/0.5K
      Use losetup to set up a block device that accesses the file:
      losetup /dev/loop0 SWAP-FILENAME
      Ofcourse you can use loop1..7 in case loop0 is busy.
      Use swapon to enable the file swap space:
      swapon /dev/loop0

      Congratulations, you have enabled file-based swap space!

    3. Re:Swap Space on an existing partition? by MikeBabcock · · Score: 3, Informative

      You can do it even easier ... (one less step):

      dd if=/dev/zero of=swapfile.dat bs=1k count=x
      mkswap swapfile.dat
      swapon swapfile.dat ... that should work if you're running recent tools.

      --
      - Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
  45. Re:Floppy size and reliability by dougmc · · Score: 2
    Wouldn't the temporary files created by the compiler exceed 1.4 MB, the capacity of a "high-density" 3.5 inch floppy disk? Or is one of the objectives of the course to optimize a compilation job for minimal size of intermediate files and of executable files?
    Knoppix (and later Redhat distributions, for that matter, don't know about other distributions) create a RAM disk equal to one half the size of your RAM. For Redhat, it's not used unless you explicitly use it (and the memory isn't actually used unless you put something on the RAM disk) but for Knoppix your /tmp and /etc directories are put into this RAM disk. So you have space for temporary files (plenty of space, if you have a decent amount of RAM.)
    And what does the grader do when he or she receives a disk that has bad sectors on it? Floppies tend to develop them rather quickly.
    Floppies suck. This is always a problem, not restricted to this one circumstance. Hopefully the students know to make more than one copy ...

    Knoppix, on the other hand, rocks.

  46. Very Impressive. by Schnapple · · Score: 2
    Myself, I accidentally found Knoppix when I was looking for the UT2K3 Demo LiveCD from Gentoo. I fired it up and ran it on my system. VERY impressive. Runs like a dream, and more importantly, it does what what Windows has done all along - it detected and used everything I had. I was online with DHCP, it knew my video card, everything.

    But like I said, I had this confused for the UT2K3 disc, so I was looking for that and couldn't find it. This is when I found out what probably most "avid" PC users experienced with Windows find out, and is probably the real #1 threat to Linux on the desktop - the fact that it's all very different, and compared to Windows, difficult. I mean, with a Mac versus Windows you of course know there are differences in things like interface and file system structure, but after some work you've got it down. The way Linux uses and organizes files befuddled me, and I can suddenly see why most people are turned off by Linux - it doesn't seem worth it to learn a whole new paradigm when the one you're most comfortable with is used by 90+% of the world and (from a business standpoint) is more profitbale anyway.

    So perhaps what is needed next is a good "So you've only ever used Windows..." guide. (and if one already exists, feel free to point to it)

  47. Every PC an Idrema! by runlvl0 · · Score: 2


    I was looking for the UT2K3 Demo LiveCD from Gentoo. I fired it up and ran it on my system. VERY impressive. Runs like a dream, and more importantly, it does what what Windows has done all along - it detected and used everything I had. I was online with DHCP, it knew my video card, everything.

    Maybe I'm just a 'tard who didn't think of this earlier, but what a boon for game developers! "HERE you go! Just like your PS2, dump this CD (with live Linux filesystem & game of the week) in your PC and hit the power button..." Now, a REAL reason for game developers to develop for Linux! Control of the *PC* platform - no DLLs, MSIs, or DX crap to work with - THIS is the environment that your customer gets, every PC an Idrema with a live filesystem + app on CD. On the surface, it seems like a great leap back, but it appears that the benefits outweigh the fs overhead on each CD.

    What a fsking GREAT idea! (Or am I missing something? Besides hardware, I mean, this is supposed to be somewhat tolerant in that regard, anyway.) It seems to work for Gentoo and Epic Games, anyway.

    --

    Carthago delenda est!
    1. Re:Every PC an Idrema! by Schnapple · · Score: 3, Interesting
      well not to make you sound any less the genius, but you're not the first person to think of this, at least not that's posted it on Slashdot anyway.

      The idea is not without merit, and it would solve some problems but introduce others.

      To run a game this way would mean that the end user can't do anything while they're playing the game. No e-mail checking, no downloading with Kazaa, no way to quickly get back to your desktop (short of rebooting), etc. The notion of multitasking is gone. In may ways this would be like the good/bad old days of rebooting just to play DOOM.

      It also means saying goodbye to DirectX. Since we already have UT2K3 and all things Quake running on Linux already it's far from impossible, but many developers don't want to kiss DirectX goodbye. While Epic and id are two companies that favor cross-platform compatibility over ease of tools, many other developers think otherwise (witness Neverwinter Nights).

      Back in the pre-DirectX days the developer would have to code for every concievable piece of hardware. DirectX shifted most of this burden to the hardware makers, but to do this LiveCD route would make the developer have to do it again. Not sure how big a problem this would be nowadays (since it might not be such a big deal to just throw every driver in history onto the disc) but it might be another Big Hassle for the developers.

      Finally, this means that game developers would have to either become geniuses on making bootable Linux distros in addition to games, or else get cozy with Linux distro makers. Heck, this might even cause political distro wars as to whom gets used. Plus this probably won't do anything to further Linux on the desktop (if that's your bag).

      But I can see this as an interesting option to do in addition to the install and run in Windows/Linux option. Kinda reminds me of when Windows wasn't popular yet and Adobe Photoshop 1.0 (I think) came out with a Windows Runtime.

  48. Knoppix rocks! by aquarian · · Score: 2

    I just discovered Knoppix a few weeks ago, and I must say I'm impressed. I've never had a Linux distribution install so cleanly and easily, self-configuring everything. So many apps are included, and the KDE desktop looks great. Other distributions have a long way to go to catch up to this piece of work, which is even more impressive considering it runs live from a CD. Knoppix is the perfect introdution to Linux for someone who just wants to check it out, but you can get real work done with it too. I've been using it to run my favorite Linux apps on my Windows laptop. It's been really handy. Now I want to give a copy to all my friends who have been wondering about Linux. Great work!

  49. It's got style, personality, charm... (-: by leonbrooks · · Score: 2
    Kernel painc: Aiee, killing interrupt handler!

    Haven't had one of those for aaaaages (and always on dodgy hardware). But you've got to admit, it is a lot more exciting (and informative, even the dumbest user knows the system has a problem!) than a nicely centered F0AD:4C696C6C message.

    --
    Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
    1. Re:It's got style, personality, charm... (-: by cscx · · Score: 2

      I'm partial to the STOP error myself ... "A problem has been detected and Windows has been
      shut down to prevent damage to your computer."

      Damage? Like, what? Would my hard disk have caught fire had it not shut down?

  50. Funny you should say that -- Cool Linux CD by ptbrown · · Score: 2

    Another auto-configuring live CD is Cool Linux CD. It's based on Red Hat 7.3 with XFS support, uses IceWM, and contains OpenOffice, Mozilla, Opera, Sylpheed, Pan, Xchat, Licq, mplayer, xmms, and VMWare.


    I wouldn't just hand it to a Windows user and say "try this". The hardware auto-detection works well enough, but you still have to login and start X manually. Since it uses RH's configurator, it will initially display the standard RH desktop while setting up then it restarts into IceWM. But once you've got it running and explain that there is no "Explorer" or "Start" button, it's dead simple.

    --
    Any sufficiently advanced civilization is indistinguishable from Gods.
  51. And Konqueror by leonbrooks · · Score: 2

    Add its path to the plugins search list, click refresh, done.

    --
    Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
  52. Does it really fit on a CD-R? by jejones · · Score: 2

    I just grabbed the latest .iso, and it's not wanting to fit on the CD-R. (I figured those have a standard size...) Has anyone actually managed to burn one of those on a CD-R, and if so, how?

  53. Stop! I might damage myself! by leonbrooks · · Score: 3, Funny
    Damage? Like, what? Would my hard disk have caught fire had it not shut down?

    Perhaps a Windows install might have succeeded. Is that damaging enough for you? (-:

    --
    Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
  54. Re:Developing for Knoppix by KesterHabermann · · Score: 2, Interesting

    At the moment I am developing a tool for customizing KNOPPIX boot without remastering.

    Here's the current development snapshot

    Notice: The tool is still under development and far from complete, but it will already serve the advanced user.

    Kester.
  55. Is this an easy way to install Debian? by isdnip · · Score: 2

    I'm probably late to post in this thread, but if anybody knowledgeable reads this...

    I tried Knoppix to see if Linux would work on an old laptop that I recently picked up. Very nice, though it didn't ge the sound going. But the hard drive install is intriguing. It's based on Debian, which is famously hard to install. Once Debian's in place, though, it's said to be very easy to maintain, using apt-get. I use Mandrake now and while urpmi is supposed to help, it's no apt-get! Indeed it still leaves me in dependency hell more often than not, when trying to install a package not included in the base distro.

    So would Knoppix on HD be a nice shortcut to a working Debian system? If so, it could be a killer tool for the Debian world, and I could try it on my "spare" partition (where I last had Gentoo, a nice hack in is own right but talk about hard to install...).

  56. So close... by macshit · · Score: 2

    This thing is fantastic. It's amazing the things you can fit into 50 megs - basically every command line program you'd want except Emacs and man pages, plus minimal X support.

    Geez, only one more zero and they could have fit in emacs too....

    --
    We live, as we dream -- alone....
  57. Re:Why EPS in documents? by Planesdragon · · Score: 2

    EPS (Encapsulated PostScript) is a vector graphics format: PNG, JPEG and BMP are pixel-based (raster?). They *aren't* the same!

    No, but for a print document at a sufficiently high resoution, they might as well be. Except that the raster-based ones will work easier.

    You would have to be pretty stupid to start saving graphs and so forth in PNG/JPEG in a a document.

    No stupider than someone using EPS to do the same thing.

    Office has native graphing features, that translate fairly well across versions--and if you're in doubt, you can just make a new one. And you can even update it natively!

  58. Re:Knoptic reads but not writes NTFS fine by jbolden · · Score: 2

    There are patches that allow write but they are supposedly quite flakey. Anyway the question was being asked in a distribution specific way and so I answered that way though I agree this is more of a kernel thing than a distribution thing.

  59. On USB-keychain? by Hektor_Troy · · Score: 2

    Can you make this run from/boot from a USB-keychain (those that has uptowards 1 GB of flash-RAM)? Okay, the ones I've seen are USB 1.1, so it's slow as hell, but at least you'd be able to have easy writable storage, and once you had it running you could store your preferences.

    And why yes, I did submit this as an "ask slashdot" with a lot more detail, but it was rejected :-/

    --
    We do not live in the 21st century. We live in the 20 second century.
  60. Re:cd-rw? by dougmc · · Score: 2
    Problem is that CDR's are not as easy to write to as floppies. Yes, packet writing software can make it almost seem like a floppy, but there's still issues. Zip disks would be better, but they 're not perfect either (especially since they're not found on most PC's.)

    For the classroom that was using Knoppix, the best bet is probably to have the students mount a NFS or SMB share, and put their programs there. Either that, ftp them to a file server, or upload them with a browser.

    NFS isn't ideal, because every student has the same UID, and therefore could read what other students turned in. The best bet is probably to make a web page that requests your name and lets you upload (turn in) your program, and just hit it with Mozilla (already on Knoppix.)