Posted by
timothy
on from the rollin'-rollin'-rollin' dept.
bdesham writes "Mac OS X Hints has a story about a plugin for QuickTime and iTunes that enables the user to play all of those Ogg Vorbis files that you have sitting on your hard drive, but can't play because of lack of support from Apple."
CD Burning works!
by
plazman30
·
· Score: 4, Informative
Just tested CD burining of ogg files and it worked flawlessly. Since I don't have a portable MP3 player, I can safely say I will never make another MP3 file again.
Soon as ANYONE makes a hardware Ogg player, they'll get my money.
There are others
by
erik+umenhofer
·
· Score: 4, Informative
This program seems to have OGG support. I like iTunes but I don't think it should be the thing holding you back from listening to music on a mac. That's a little silly.
Re:This is great
by
Scooby+Snacks
·
· Score: 4, Informative
Two things need to happen: one, the Vorbis folks need to get the codec to run on these smaller DSPs with a free reference implementation
Well, the first part is already taken care of with the release of the BSD-licensed "Tremor" integer decoder.
--
-- Runnin' around, robbin' banks all whacked on the Scooby Snacks...
finally, decoding ogg...
by
fishboy
·
· Score: 4, Informative
While ripping to.ogg is fairly common, the most important thing that this plug-in provides is a means to convert.ogg files over to.aiff or.mp3, something that I haven't been able to find any software to do for the mac on either X or 9.
Thus I can play the rare.ogg files I find on my iPod, albeit via mp3.
Also, It does not require 6.0.2-- if you have 6.0 or 6.0.1 it works fine. Now I just wish I could get it for OS9.
actually, no.
by
Anonymous Coward
·
· Score: 2, Informative
On modern general purpose CPUs (such as the pentium) Vorbis actually takes less cycled to decode than MP3 (as measured with the pentium cycle counter).. If your windows taskmon shows it using more, that just because the decoder works in larger chunks of data, thus yealds less often and the task monitor misreports its use...
There isn't a DSP based MP3 player without enough CPU available to decode OGG. (it needs about 40mips on most DSP archs, most portable mp3 players are 70mips DSPs. The real problem is memory requirements: Because of it's ultra flexiable format, Vorbis needs more ram to decode than mp3 and some older decoders only had 32k or 64k of RAM!!! (Vorbis could probably be done in that, but it would be hard.. while 128k would be easy.)..
All the modern players (esp that hard disk ones) have tons of ram (32megs in the ipod for example) and tons of cpu (something like 140mips for the ipod) which makes vorbis decode free and easy.
Re:Mac OGG Problem...
by
FrostedWheat
·
· Score: 2, Informative
oggenc by default will try to write it's output into the same folder as the soure. You can change the output, at the expense of doing multiple files:
Naming:
-o, --output=fn Write file to fn (only valid in single-file mode)
Re:mp3 - ogg (You wouldn't want to do this...)
by
Malic
·
· Score: 5, Informative
MP3 is a "lossy" format - so is Ogg. Conversion from MP3 to Ogg would result in double loss in comparison to the original source CD.
--
I swear by MacOS X. Although I use to swear *at* MacOS 9...
Re:mp3 - ogg
by
lostchicken
·
· Score: 5, Informative
There is no point to doing this, unless you want to drop the bit rate, or just want ogg for political reasons.
When you encoded into MP3 (or any lossy format, for that matter) the quality went away for good. Re-encoding it will just re-encode the low quality stream, introducing the new Vorbis (OGG Audio) artifacts on top of the MP3 ones. If you re-encode your library, the audio quality will get worse, period, although the drop will me minimal, and you might squeeze a little more compression out of it.
To answer your question, though, dbPowerAmp should do the trick.
-- -twb
another project
by
elohim
·
· Score: 4, Informative
here's another attempt to use ogg with quicktime.
http://qtcomponents.sourceforge.net/
from the site:
This site is dedicated to open source QuickTime development for popular open source audio and video codecs. We are currently working on Ogg Vorbis, an audio codec developed by Xiphophorus, and MNG, an animation video codec.
We have just begun the project, expect many changes over the next few weeks. We will offer a site for developers, as well as one for end-users interested in using our software. At the moment, some areas of our site are not yet implemented.
The Ogg Vorbis component does not work with QuickTime 6. It turns out that QuickTime doesn't support audio with packets of varying durations (only constant duration audio is supported.) This limitation is not in the documentation. This limitation exists in QuickTime 5 as well (and it's not in the documentation there either). But QuickTime 5 did fairly well when playing back audio with varying durations. QuickTime 6 will give you a few pops and clicks when trying to play an Ogg Vorbis file. Ask Apple to fix this problem and some others.
Re:Whats the big problem with putting ogg everywhe
by
Graymalkin
·
· Score: 3, Informative
If it's so trivial why haven't you done it already? Integer only MP3 decoders are all over the places and MP3 decoding using only integer math is well understood. MP3 is also standardized such that anyone with the specs can write a decoding algorithm for them if they desire to. The Tremor codec has just recently been released which means there's still a bit of development time before you see it adapted to handhelds like the Rio and iPod. Even if you've got a strong processor, which most MP3 handhelds don't have, you need to get your decoder on a MIPS diet so your chip isn't running full bore and sucking power out of the batteries like an electricty vampire. Integer only MPEG decoding is a well understood practice while Ogg is still relatively new even though it shares many concepts. Decoding algorithms are one thing, decoding algorithms that don't require 100+ MIPS are another.
-- I'm a loner Dottie, a Rebel.
Re:This is great
by
Graymalkin
·
· Score: 5, Informative
For the hardware vendors though it is a question of space. Can an Ogg codec fit into the same ROM space as an MP3 codec and only use the same resources as said MP3 codec? If not they will not use Ogg codecs. Nor will they use Ogg codecs if it halves the battery life of the device, if the Ogg needs so much processing muscle it uses twice the wattage as the MP3 encoder they can't really sell that to people. Who cares if the device holds twice as many songs if the battery life is only half of what it would be otherwise. If playing an Ogg made my iPod only last 5 hours there's no way in hell I'd ever use them better quality or not. I routinely run my iPod for 8-10 hour stretches any period of time less than that is unacceptable for me personally.
Work on Ogg is going to continue and some intepid soul or souls are going to make a super cool Ogg decoder that can run on a paper clip taped to a Dorito but until then MP3 and WMP are going to dominate because they fit on the existing hardware.
-- I'm a loner Dottie, a Rebel.
Re:Poor hardware?
by
octalc0de
·
· Score: 2, Informative
What's the quality of the hardware got to do with it?
Crappy CD-ROM drive sometimes => No Digital Output. No Digital Output => Crappy Rips.
Most of the chips used in handheld MP3 players are lightweight integer only processors or DSPs that handle the sort of integer ops MP3 and WMA files need to decode. With the more general purpose chips you need to write a decoder that can fit in the device's ROM and then not use signifigantly more processing power than the other decoders. Vorbis files need more math ops performed on them than MP3 files do. MP3 audio was designed to be run on systems whose processors performed fewer MIPS than a potato chip. Ogg Vorbis is from the era of Athlons and Intel space heaters. it simply requires more processing power period.
Squeezing an Ogg decoder into the same space as an MP3 decoder is hard enough but getting it to not drain the batteries in Planck time adds a whole level of complexity on top of it. The more work a chip has to do the more power it consumes. I wouldn't buy an iPod that only played 3 hours worth of music before needing a nuclear generator to recharge it.
-- I'm a loner Dottie, a Rebel.
Re:Whats the big problem with putting ogg everywhe
by
Dr.Dubious+DDQ
·
· Score: 4, Informative
Is there an easy way to burn ogg files in Linux?
If you're using KDE, that audiocd "ioslave" is ridiculously easy to use...
Plug in an audio cd, type "audiocd:/" in Konqueror, then drag the.ogg tracks that you want off of the "Ogg" directory to wherever you want them. KDE encodes the track when you do.
I'd be surprised if there weren't similarly easy methods outside of KDE somewhere as well...
They all support Ogg. And I'm sure I forgot at least a dozen more. Claiming the Mac can't play Ogg because iTunes doesn't support it is about as ridiculous as saying Linux can't do your budget because there is no spreadsheet built into the kernel.
The article poster is trolling on that last sentence, plain and simple.
-- CAn'T CompreHend SARcaSm?
Patent evergreening can delay generics even longer
by
yerricde
·
· Score: 4, Informative
In a bit more than a decade, the mp3 patent will have expired
It won't matter if Fraunhofer manages to "evergreen" the patent. Patent evergreening, which involves patenting a minor variation, intermediate product, or process used to produce a product, is common in the pharmaceutical industry. Often, when a drug's patent is about to expire, a pharma company will patent a new version of a drug and then lobby the FDA to label the original version no longer "safe and effective" and make it a controlled substance. It happened to Seldane. I see no reason why an analogous technique (patenting minor variations on MP3, or slamming MP3 as a "music piracy tool" in favor of mp3PRO) could not be applied to codec patents as well.
My old Performa 6200 (75 MHz 603) from '94 (I think) played Mp3s in the background while playing WarCraft 2 or DOOM II in the foreground. It was also acting as an LPD printserver and a fileserver at the time -- albeit on a low traffic in-home lan.
I have no idea why you say that the 7300, a much more powerful machine, would have problems doing the same thing.
Ummm. . . I have to wonder how much you've been paying attention to the ogg project.
It's been stated several times by Monty that decoding an.ogg file has about the same complexity as decoding an.mp3
Perhaps you're basing this idea off the fact that for a long time the only decoder available needed a floating point unit. But this has since been fixed by the release of Tremor (an integer only ogg decoder).
But in any case your information is wrong, or at the very least out of date.
Slashdot Mirror
Just tested CD burining of ogg files and it worked flawlessly. Since I don't have a portable MP3 player, I can safely say I will never make another MP3 file again.
Soon as ANYONE makes a hardware Ogg player, they'll get my money.
--
Runnin' around, robbin' banks all whacked on the Scooby Snacks...
While ripping to
Thus I can play the rare
Also, It does not require 6.0.2-- if you have 6.0 or 6.0.1 it works fine. Now I just wish I could get it for OS9.
On modern general purpose CPUs (such as the pentium) Vorbis actually takes less cycled to decode than MP3 (as measured with the pentium cycle counter).. If your windows taskmon shows it using more, that just because the decoder works in larger chunks of data, thus yealds less often and the task monitor misreports its use...
There isn't a DSP based MP3 player without enough CPU available to decode OGG. (it needs about 40mips on most DSP archs, most portable mp3 players are 70mips DSPs. The real problem is memory requirements: Because of it's ultra flexiable format, Vorbis needs more ram to decode than mp3 and some older decoders only had 32k or 64k of RAM!!! (Vorbis could probably be done in that, but it would be hard.. while 128k would be easy.)..
All the modern players (esp that hard disk ones) have tons of ram (32megs in the ipod for example) and tons of cpu (something like 140mips for the ipod) which makes vorbis decode free and easy.
oggenc by default will try to write it's output into the same folder as the soure. You can change the output, at the expense of doing multiple files:
Naming:
-o, --output=fn Write file to fn (only valid in single-file mode)
MP3 is a "lossy" format - so is Ogg. Conversion from MP3 to Ogg would result in double loss in comparison to the original source CD.
I swear by MacOS X. Although I use to swear *at* MacOS 9...
There is no point to doing this, unless you want to drop the bit rate, or just want ogg for political reasons.
When you encoded into MP3 (or any lossy format, for that matter) the quality went away for good. Re-encoding it will just re-encode the low quality stream, introducing the new Vorbis (OGG Audio) artifacts on top of the MP3 ones. If you re-encode your library, the audio quality will get worse, period, although the drop will me minimal, and you might squeeze a little more compression out of it.
To answer your question, though, dbPowerAmp should do the trick.
-twb
here's another attempt to use ogg with quicktime.
http://qtcomponents.sourceforge.net/
from the site:
This site is dedicated to open source QuickTime development for popular open source audio and video codecs. We are currently working on Ogg Vorbis, an audio codec developed by Xiphophorus, and MNG, an animation video codec.
We have just begun the project, expect many changes over the next few weeks. We will offer a site for developers, as well as one for end-users interested in using our software. At the moment, some areas of our site are not yet implemented.
The Ogg Vorbis component does not work with QuickTime 6.
It turns out that QuickTime doesn't support audio with packets of varying durations (only constant duration audio is supported.) This limitation is not in the documentation. This limitation exists in QuickTime 5 as well (and it's not in the documentation there either). But QuickTime 5 did fairly well when playing back audio with varying durations. QuickTime 6 will give you a few pops and clicks when trying to play an Ogg Vorbis file.
Ask Apple to fix this problem and some others.
If it's so trivial why haven't you done it already? Integer only MP3 decoders are all over the places and MP3 decoding using only integer math is well understood. MP3 is also standardized such that anyone with the specs can write a decoding algorithm for them if they desire to. The Tremor codec has just recently been released which means there's still a bit of development time before you see it adapted to handhelds like the Rio and iPod. Even if you've got a strong processor, which most MP3 handhelds don't have, you need to get your decoder on a MIPS diet so your chip isn't running full bore and sucking power out of the batteries like an electricty vampire. Integer only MPEG decoding is a well understood practice while Ogg is still relatively new even though it shares many concepts. Decoding algorithms are one thing, decoding algorithms that don't require 100+ MIPS are another.
I'm a loner Dottie, a Rebel.
For the hardware vendors though it is a question of space. Can an Ogg codec fit into the same ROM space as an MP3 codec and only use the same resources as said MP3 codec? If not they will not use Ogg codecs. Nor will they use Ogg codecs if it halves the battery life of the device, if the Ogg needs so much processing muscle it uses twice the wattage as the MP3 encoder they can't really sell that to people. Who cares if the device holds twice as many songs if the battery life is only half of what it would be otherwise. If playing an Ogg made my iPod only last 5 hours there's no way in hell I'd ever use them better quality or not. I routinely run my iPod for 8-10 hour stretches any period of time less than that is unacceptable for me personally.
Work on Ogg is going to continue and some intepid soul or souls are going to make a super cool Ogg decoder that can run on a paper clip taped to a Dorito but until then MP3 and WMP are going to dominate because they fit on the existing hardware.
I'm a loner Dottie, a Rebel.
What's the quality of the hardware got to do with it?
Crappy CD-ROM drive sometimes => No Digital Output.
No Digital Output => Crappy Rips.
Most of the chips used in handheld MP3 players are lightweight integer only processors or DSPs that handle the sort of integer ops MP3 and WMA files need to decode. With the more general purpose chips you need to write a decoder that can fit in the device's ROM and then not use signifigantly more processing power than the other decoders. Vorbis files need more math ops performed on them than MP3 files do. MP3 audio was designed to be run on systems whose processors performed fewer MIPS than a potato chip. Ogg Vorbis is from the era of Athlons and Intel space heaters. it simply requires more processing power period.
Squeezing an Ogg decoder into the same space as an MP3 decoder is hard enough but getting it to not drain the batteries in Planck time adds a whole level of complexity on top of it. The more work a chip has to do the more power it consumes. I wouldn't buy an iPod that only played 3 hours worth of music before needing a nuclear generator to recharge it.
I'm a loner Dottie, a Rebel.
If you're using KDE, that audiocd "ioslave" is ridiculously easy to use...
Plug in an audio cd, type "audiocd:/" in Konqueror, then drag the .ogg tracks that you want off of the "Ogg" directory to wherever you want them. KDE encodes the track when you do.
I'd be surprised if there weren't similarly easy methods outside of KDE somewhere as well...
Hacker Public Radio is our Friend
iTunes does use Quicktime to encode and decode audio files. Do you homework before you post FUD.
pfftplplplptpffplplpffft
This is all you need.
Why can't you play your Ogg files with Audion?
Or Unsanity Mint Audio?
Or Macamp?
They all support Ogg. And I'm sure I forgot at least a dozen more. Claiming the Mac can't play Ogg because iTunes doesn't support it is about as ridiculous as saying Linux can't do your budget because there is no spreadsheet built into the kernel.
The article poster is trolling on that last sentence, plain and simple.
CAn'T CompreHend SARcaSm?
In a bit more than a decade, the mp3 patent will have expired
It won't matter if Fraunhofer manages to "evergreen" the patent. Patent evergreening, which involves patenting a minor variation, intermediate product, or process used to produce a product, is common in the pharmaceutical industry. Often, when a drug's patent is about to expire, a pharma company will patent a new version of a drug and then lobby the FDA to label the original version no longer "safe and effective" and make it a controlled substance. It happened to Seldane. I see no reason why an analogous technique (patenting minor variations on MP3, or slamming MP3 as a "music piracy tool" in favor of mp3PRO) could not be applied to codec patents as well.
Will I retire or break 10K?
My old Performa 6200 (75 MHz 603) from '94 (I think) played Mp3s in the background while playing WarCraft 2 or DOOM II in the foreground. It was also acting as an LPD printserver and a fileserver at the time -- albeit on a low traffic in-home lan.
I have no idea why you say that the 7300, a much more powerful machine, would have problems doing the same thing.
t'nera semordnilap
Ummm. . . I have to wonder how much you've been paying attention to the ogg project.
.ogg file has about the same complexity as decoding an .mp3
It's been stated several times by Monty that decoding an
Perhaps you're basing this idea off the fact that for a long time the only decoder available needed a floating point unit. But this has since been fixed by the release of Tremor (an integer only ogg decoder).
But in any case your information is wrong, or at the very least out of date.
Vorbis decode currently requires more memory to decode than mp3/WMA (about 120kB using Tremor; we plan to reduce that to about 30-40kB).
It does not require more CPU.
Monty
"You sounded pretty authoritative for being dead wrong."
I don't think unicode means what you think it means. You're using it in a few different contradictory ways in your post...
[FWIW, Ogg Vorbis comment fields use UTF-8 and support full internationalization. Not sure if the plugin for iTunes posted in this story does...]
Monty
The DirectShow filters at vorbis.com add Ogg support to WMP and all Win apps that use DirectShow, including DiVX apps.
Monty