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Taiwanese Capacitors Leaking, Exploding
ackthpt writes "A few astute slashdot readers were on to something back when this article was published. After a tip (at e-insight.net) on failing caps over at amdmb I did a little looking around and found this article by Dennis Zogbi on TTI Inc.'s site, which goes into more detail. In a nutshell, many motherboards are now failing due to electolytic capacitors made with an inferior water-based electolyte. Within days or a few months these capacitors build up hydrogen gas and blow the rubber bung out the end of the capacitor, leaking electolyte and causing havoc. The problem may be widespread, as many consumer electronics made with these capacitors may also fail prematurely. Gary Headlee specializes in Abit motherboards, but as his FAQ states, he will work on other makes and the FAQ has more info on capacitor problems."
I had this happen to my Abit KA7 motherboard.
Not many, I should hope. Just as we have "server grade" components in the tech industry, other standards exist in different industries.
Bored with karma, be a fan/freak
I just replaced an MSI KT266Pro Motherboard with exactly those symptoms. The computer suddenly started crashing at strange times, and in a week could barely boot. It turned out to be the capacitors, which had ruptured at the top.
The company my parents own bought 30 machines a while back which apparently all had these bad caps on the mainboards. When the first few mainboards started failing we tried to send them back on warranty, but our vendor wasn't cooperating, and shipping them all back to ABIT was resulting in too much down time. (shipping time, etc...)
So we went to the nearest electronic wholesaler in town and bought a box of the equivilent caps and soldered them on ourselves. It doesn't take more than 5 minutes and the caps themselves are very inexpensive.
Of the 30 machines we bought I think almost 25 have failed, just a matter of time before the rest fail I'm sure.
Open Source Time and Attendance, Job Costing a
I had 8 of 12 Abit BE6-II (Pentium III - Slot1) boards die just after 1 year of operation. I noticed that the some of the capacitors had ooozed, but not being electrically inclined, I assumed that it was only cosmetic.
Could this or other fundamental defects be the new "Y2K" problem?
nohup rm -rf ~/. >& zen &
Forget case mods, maybe we need to start modding our mainboards with better caps.
Minor point of correction - what you describe is a "cross-shipment." A "drop shipment" is when I order an UPS from someone like CDW, and APC ships from their factory to my location.
I only mention because I caused some confusion with an sales account rep by confusing these two shipping methods...
Good god...how many of these things could be lurking about in automotive airbags, ABS systems, or in any sort of medical device?
:)
(Slightly OT)
While not quite as bad, this is becoming a problem in older automotive ECUs (engine control units). The problem is especially rampant in DSM cars (Mitsubishi Eclipse, Eagle Talon, Plymouth Laser) manufactured between 1989 and 1994. I know because it happened to me. All the big electrolytic capacitors leaked all over the place, pretty much destroying the board. One of the symptoms is a 'rotten seafood smell' coming from behind the console.
Mitsubishi wanted around $750 for a replacement. Luckily since this is such a problem, refurbished ECUs are available for cheap.
I can finally vent about my misery! This experience ought to be useful to anyone who is currently in the market for a motherboard. Simply put, don't buy Abit.
About 1.5 years ago, I purchased two motherboards from Abit. This one for an 800MHz Athlon system, and this board for a dual, 733MHz Coppermine system. Last semeter, my KA7 failed slowly over time. At first, I thought it was the power supply because it seemed all the capasitors around the power regulator were fried (they were encrusted with the carbon of some substance that appeared to boil out of them and burn). I replaced my power supply and motherboard. A few weeks ago, I started having interrupt failures on my VP6 (APIC errors on both CPUs). I replaced the motherboard with a Gigabyte GA-6VTXD (sorry for the shameless plug, but Gigabyte denies deep linking, and this is where I got the board - a great buy). Turns out the VP6 also had fried capasitors and I *know* the PS in my that dual proc box is solid (a well tested Antec). The only two Abit mobos I've ever purchased burned out their capasitors. The moral of this story? Don't buy Abit. While this problem is wide spread, Abit seems to have a particular affliction.
Why bother.
This is a very widespread problem. The gateway e3400 series falls prey to this, i have replaced no fewer than 30 in the past 4 months, and the gateway tech told me that they had a school with over 200 cases of this. I hate to see that problem is more widespread that a single series of motherboards.
Going under temp is just as bad, if not worse, as going over temp. The cost-consious id10t who approved using an electrolyte based on H2O should be liberally bathed in it - it's the worst possible thing to put in a cap. Being water based, if the electrolyte in the capacitor freezes, it expands and basically mashes the caps plates together. If they touch, well, hope it was time for an upgrade. The electrolyte would normally act as anti-freeze, but being water based means that it freezes a lot sooner. All the wrong things happen with water in the capacitor.
If you fly, keep your electronic gear with you, since the baggage compartment of an airplane isn't usually temperature controlled. Or, if you live in Sweden, Canada or any place that can get low screen temps, keep that laptop in the car or someplace warm so you con't freeze a cap and blow up your gear. In any event, insulate it from temerature extremes whenever possible.
Soko
"Depression is merely anger without enthusiasm." - Anonymous
We had a similar, but much worse case a couple of years ago. We bought some cases that came with power supplies branded CommPlus. After about 2-6 months the power supplies would die in a really fierry death (sparks, high temparature, whatever)
The worst thing was that HDs, CD-ROMs, MBs, and procesors were also trashed. This happened in about 50% of the cases. We lost a whole lot of money. Anyone had this joyful experience also?
please excuse my apathy
Q:Can you tell me how to do the repair myself ? A:I used to post the information on newsgroups, however several people e-mailed me to say they followed my directions and "something" went wrong , their CPU is dead and the motherboard went up in smoke. If you have the necessary skills and equipment, you really shouldn't need instructions.
This thread has lots of tips for people who want to replace motherboard capacitors themselves.
To find Garys messages messages search groups.google.com for authors=capman@att.net.
He suggests replacing the origianl teapo capacitors with the the Panasonic FC series or cap from Rubycon Corporation, Nichicon, and Nippon Industries (NIC Components)
Good god...how many of these things could be lurking about in automotive airbags, ABS systems, or in any sort of medical device?
For the most part, none.
Electrolytic capacitors have a fixed lifetime and are by nature unreliable. They don't meet MILSPEC for electronic components. An F16 fighter for example, won't contain a single electrolytic capacitor.
Where reliability is critical, Tantalum capacitors are used, but they're physically larger and more expensive. Any -critical- system manufacturer(automotive safety systems, medical equipment, etc) that uses electrolytic capacitors should be shot.
Want to see some fun stuff? Do a search for "capacitor" and "Bose" on Google. Bose had a TON of problems with bad capacitors in their car stereo systems(installed on millions of vehicles from at least a dozen manufacturers), and it took years for the car manufacturers to fess up to the problem and offer recalls. Bose knew about the problem for years, so one presumes the car companies did. The Ford Pinto incident apparently never taught companies anything; they still don't issue recalls until enough people die/get hurt that it becomes in the company's financial interests to announce a recall.
Some never did announce a recall, until recently. Audi used Bose speakers in the 1991 200 Quattro 20v turbo(car I happen to drive), and the orientation of the circuit boards for the rear speakers were such that the (conductive) electrolytic fluid often caused serious shorts- the Audi enthusiast community knows of at least a few 200q20v's that met their untimely ends due to speaker FIRES. Loud thumping, smoking, popping, etc are more common.
It was pretty much exclusive to the one model, of which only about 2000-3000 at most were imported. The number of reported problems were low(I'd say maybe half a dozen fires), but keep in mind- this wasn't a Ford Taurus will millions on the road.
Audi continuously lied to us- we have proof that they knew from about 1992 onwards that the speakers were defective. A year or two ago we banded together and got a LOT of owners who had experienced speaker problems to call in and report the problem.
When we called Audi, each owner was separately told "we have no knowledge of any problems with your model vehicle"(or something to that effect.) I guess they didn't think we would talk to each other, eh?
Only after several owners submitted paperwork to NHSTA did we see any action; early spring of this year, Audi -announced- the problem and said there would be a recall. It took months to get the replacement circuit boards in and for the recall procedure to get out to dealerships.
Still, guess what? If you report a problem with your car to NHSTA, you can't actually follow up with anyone at NHSTA. The ONLY people you can talk to are a bunch of lazy government call center workers who can ONLY mail you a form or take information on a new case over the phone. You could have evidence of over 50 vehicles that have had said safety problem, and guess what? The call center couldn't care less, they just want to mail you a @#$! form.
Ask any Audi owner and they'll tell you- they love their car. My 200q20v is well over a decade old, but(thanks to a $500 ECU modification) does 0-60 in under 6 seconds, has all wheel drive for incredible traction, 5-speed, stealthy looks(looks like a 5000, basically) and huge amounths of interior and trunk space. Galvanized panels(standard in most audis since 1985 or so) means that there is barely a spot of rust anywhere on the car despite living its entire life in the Northeast US.) Audis are the most utilitarian of german luxury cars, and you usually get more for your money(in terms of features and interior quality) compared to a BMW or Mercedes...and Audi's all wheel drive system is still the best(despite what Subaru would like you to believe, Audi has been doing AWD since 1980, dominating the rallying world at the time. Subaru is about 15 years behind the game.)
But, ask any Audi owner what they think of the company, and the answer will probably change dramatically. It is a terrible shame when such a great product is hampered by piss-poor support.
Part of the problem may be that the engineers are underspecing the capacitors in an effort to cut costs. A friend of mine used to have a job evaluating component reliability. He had lots of graphs that showed reliability as a function of how hard the component was driven in the circuit, for example dissipating 5W in a 5W transistor instead of using a beefier transistor.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
I've seen waves of bad production lots like this before over the last 20 years. What seems to be the problem is the parts are mismarked for operating voltage and are fine at lower voltages. It may have been something as simple as the maker using the wrong heatshrink plastic sleeves over the cans. Sometimes the board makers demand a smaller size cap because of board space limits and the cap makers try to sub a lower voltage (hence smaller) part rather than match the construction of their higher priced (and quality) competitors. BTW, all aluminum based electrolytic caps use a water based electrolyte.
if they don't burn something out by blowing up. I've replaced a couple capacitors on computers easily. All you do is solder a new one with the same values in. The first one was on my motherboard, cause by a slip of the hand. The second was on a Vodoo3 vid card (the badly placed ones right at the edge of the card). On the v3, it had power going to it for quite a while, but ran fine after i solderer the existing one back on.
If one breaks, and you don't want to/can't get your money back, you could always try putting in a new one yourself. The worst that you could do is cover things with solder...heheh.
What, are you gunna break it!?
Experienced and identified this problem last year when two Abit Slot-A mobos of ours failed at around 6 months of age. Replaced them with Socket-A systems (we were on a time crunch and didn't know if the CPUs were still good or damaged). Later, we tested the damaged systems and found that one CPU appeared to be non-functional, but the other was still ok. Both mobos had substantial black leakage on and around nearly all electrolytic caps. Both mobos were discarded. We bought a cheap slot-A mobo earlier this year and put the working CPU (an 800Mhz Athlon) back into service where it is working fine today.
A customer of ours also had an Abit Slot-A mobo of the same vintage fail about a month after ours. Again, cap leakage was evident. He got the board replaced under warranty from his vendor, and the new one is still operational.
-- There is no truth. There is only Perception. To Percieve is to Exist.
The only thing in your air bag should be the sodium azide and an igniter. The last thing you need in an accident is a bunch of loose capacitors and crap being blown into your face.
Actually, I would rather be hit in the face with a bunch of capacitors than aerosolized sodium azide, which is highly toxic by US definition, and is about as healthy as sodium cyanide powder. It is commonly used as a laboratory preservative since it can kill just about anything...
The NaN3 and ignitor are not actually in the air bag - they are in an inflater, with a filter so they don't end up in the air bag.
I've worked as a professional electronics technician (radio communications) for 13 years, and grew up around the industry. The one thing I learned early on is to always suspect the electrolytics.
Any electrolytic will change value with age, they simply dry out. Change it enough and the circuit either quits or is way out of spec. But I'm talking about caps that are 20+ years old. It seems like caps made back then could hold up for that length of time.
I've noticed in newer equipment that the caps just don't hold up. This seems to be a trend in the last 10 years or so. Everything else like diodes, resistors, transistors, etc. holds up just fine as long as you don't exceed engineered values in the circuit. But caps, anymore you just cant rely on an electrolytic to stay within spec for more than a year or two.
All this time I thought it was just me and my bad luck. Guess not.
Note that I'm not talking about just computer equipment here. Most of my experience is with land mobile radio, power supplies, and telephone equipment.
If your switching power supply in your computer has gone on to the afterlife, and the fan still worked (they won't take heat buildup)......I'll lay odds it was a cap that croaked.
. Quit playing Monopoly with Bill. Switch to one of many non-Microsoft products today.
So you can afford to buy an Audi, but you're too tight to replace some cheap speakers that might CATCH ON FIRE AND DESTROY YOUR CAR?
I agree, Audi should ultimately pay for the replacement, but in the interim...
I'm sure your family appreciates such thrift.. what, did you get them each a personal fire extinguisher for Christmas?
Actually, I unplugged them as soon as I heard of the problem, and then took the speaker units apart, and repaired the amplifier boards with new components.
I then wrote an extremely detailed document(using LyX and LaTeX, btw!) giving part numbers and places to order from, tool recommendations, etc for other owners so they could fix their own cars. I then posted it on the mailing list I administer for 200q20v owners(we have about 250 people on the list) so they could fix their own cars as well. The mailing list was instrumental in letting other owners know, since many of these cars have changed owners to the point that Audi doesn't know who to send recall notices to.
I was also one of the people who pushed HARD on Audi to acknowledge the problem and get a recall going.
So pardon, Mr. Troll, if I take offense at being accused of not taking safety seriously...and YES, I DO carry a fire extinguisher in the car, for myself and as a good samaritan for other motorists.
I know someone whose car was saved because a retired firefighter happened to drive by and put out the engine fire with his(very large) fire extinguisher. BTW- the car was extensively modified beyond original specs, it was not the fault of the car company in any way/shape/form.
FYI- if you want to be prepared to help others(or save your car should it catch fire), don't waste time on those little teeny units, they're worthless. 1 to 2 litre foam units are the best for cars; Home Depot sells them for about $40 or less. That said, be extremely careful if you do tackle even a small vehicle fire.
Lastly, replacement is easier said than done. The whole reason there is a problem is because each speaker is amplified separately- a line-level signal is sent between the radio head and the speakers(which each contain an amplifier with said capacitors.) That means low-voltage, low-current wire, which isn't suitable for non-amplified speakers.
So, in order to replace ANY speaker, you have to replace them ALL, along with all the wiring for the speakers themselves. It is a $500-$1,000 proposition.
I solved the problem for $5 in electronic components, a heat gun, and a soldering iron.
The Epox has 14 capacitors with dark green insulation and marked "GEC". These are 2200uF, 16V supposedly low-ESR capacitors arranged in two banks, one to filter the output of the siwtching regulator for the CPU, the other to filter the 5V line on the mainboard after it has be decoupled from the power supply via an inductor.
I had altogether 4 blow-outs, luckily with no secondary damage. I did not observe instability with one blown out capacitor, but when I finally replaced them all, I did not realize that it was two banks and created a different balance between the banks. About 20% difference from the original (~2 blown caps in the wrong place) was enough to totally destabilize my mainboard. What happened was that the 5V line dropped to 4.9V with something like 500mVss "noise". This lead to HDDs not being found, VGA not initializeing and other random failures. After I had a second look, I discoverd that it was two banks and re-created the original values. No problem so far, runs stable again for 3 months now.
As replacement I used Rubycon ZL's, which I hope will last longer. One problem I encounterd is that the "GEC" (could not identify the manufacturer) are 10mm diameter, while the Rubycon ones are 12.5mm. As diameter seems to affect lifetime, maybe that is not an accident...
It is really disappointing to find this kind of low-quality components in a supposedly high-quality mainboard. The 8KTA+ is not low end of the price scale. I thought manufacturing standard electronics components was well understood by now! And components from reputable manufactorers are not that expensive, I paid something like 10 Euro for the replacements.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted and ignored otherwise.
I have been having spontaneous reboot problems with 2 MSI 694D Pro (V 1.0) motherboards which is almost certainly caused by these bad capacitors.
They each had completely different hardware and software configurations. One was my Linux server at home and the other was my Windows 2000 desktop at work. One had a single Celeron, the other 2 P3-866's. They had different sound cards, different network cards, different video cards, different RAM. The only thing they had in common was this MSI 694D Pro (V1.0) motherboard and they both had the same symptom, random spontaneous reboot without warning.
They both have black 2700uf 6.3V capacitors around the CPU sockets that have the tops bulged out with brown crusty stuff on top that smells nasty!
I troubleshot this problem for a long time and decided the problem must be something to do with the CPU power supply. Both of these boards now reboot once they get to the CPU-initialization part of boot when they have 2 CPU's in them (They have MSI DR-LED's so I can tell what part of the boot they are in.) One of the boards will run for a while with only a single Celeron 600 and all the on-board devices disabled. It runs a lot less stably with a P3-866 and won't get through the boot with a single P3-1ghz They both failed slowly, starting out rebooting just once then staying up for a month or so. All this is why I thought it had something to do with the CPU power supply. They started out rebooting every once in a while, then once a day, once an hour, now with 2 CPU's it's up to once a second.
I suspected it might have something to do with the capacitors but now that I've heard about this I'm sure that's what it is. It really bothers me since both machines were in nice, big, well-ventilated cases with good power supplies. I designed and built both machines with well-supported name brand parts. It has taken me a long time to track the problem down, and since the reboots were random I though I had them fixed many times. I have replaced one of the motherboards but the other system was using the RAID controller and I'm having a hard time finding a good replacement board. I can't believe MSI would use these shoddy capacitors in a high-end dual processor board. It cost me hours of down time, hours troubleshooting time, a new motherboard, and the time to install it, just to save a few dollars on parts! I will never buy a MSI part again!
set softtabstop=4 shiftwidth=4 expandtab nocp worlddomination
80% of the world's supply of coltan, the ore from which tantalum is extracted, is found in the Congo (formerly Zaire). Illegal mining has caused large sections of Kahuzi-Biega National Park and the Okapi Wildlife Reserve forests to be cleared. The U.N. has determined that 90% of the gorillas in these parks have been killed in the last five years, primarily by the illicit miners, leaving only about 3000 remaining. The miners kill the gorillas as a threat to their safety, and sell the meat for extra income.
It's not an easy problem to solve: coltan sold for upwards of $600/kg in the late 1990s (although it's down to about $100/kg today.) A team of miners can produce about one kg per day, and each miner can earn about $200 US/month in a region where the average income is $10 US/month. Technology's demand for tantalum has driven the poorer residents of these nations to take the easy money where possible. And according to the U.N., both sides in neighboring Rwanda have been funding their civil war in large part by sales of this illegally mined tantalum.
What can be done? It is reported that deposits of coltan have been found in dormant volcanos in Greenland. And there are legitimate mines elsewhere in the world. MoBo manufacturers can and should agree to purchase and use only "gorilla safe" or "non-Congo" tantalum caps (or they can continue to use better quality electrolytic caps.) But this will only occur if the demand for gorilla-safe tantalum crosses some magical political threshhold. I wish I knew what it would take.
John
I use tantalums instead of electrolytics as a rule. Electrolytic caps have a higher ESR, and the dielectric fluid is prone to leakage. The lifetime of an electrolytic is shorter than that of a tantalum - they have a finite lifetime, as the liquid electrolyte evaporates.
While it is true about tantalumns having a particularly impressive failure mechanism, once you remember not to reverse the polarity you don't have problems. Electrolytics also behave poorly when reversed. In addition, electrolytics have a minimum operating voltage and a maximum operation voltage. And how's this:
"Conventional aluminum electrolytic capacitors which have gone 6 months or more without voltage applied may have to be reformed."
Electrolytics are also physically larger than Tantalums, not smaller. They are indeed more expensive, but worth it.
Yes, I use ceramics whenever possible (esp. NP0/C0G, none of the x7r or worse grades). Ceramics are the best general purpose - no polarity issues, small physical size allows them to be extremely close to the DUT (for bypassing), and they have pretty good SRF. The only problems - the max capacitance you can get isn't too good. Polyprop/polystyrene are better for high fidelity audio type signals (earthquake detection anybody?).
No, I don't trust in god. He'll have to pay up front, like everybody else.
A previous employer of mine made somewhere near $10,000,000 in repair costs (both in-warranty and out of warranty) because of these capacitors. Radio went poof? $250 repair please. Bose Amp squeals like a siren and pops like a canon? $200 please.
Ford could not believe that our repair shop needed as many capacitors as we were using, and sent out auditors and engineers to get a grip on what they were convinced was out of line repair expenses (or maybe outright fraud). When we showed them radio after radio, and Bose amplifier after another with exactly the same failure mode, they started waking up. We even gave them boxes of ruined circuit boards for them to analyse. The real kicker was the Bose amp used in Chevy Caprices: the board is mounted so that the capacitors are suspended from the board, the electrolyte boils and spurts out of the base of the caps so hard that it splatters all over the board. Once they saw these, and learned how they are mounted in the vehicle, they went after nichicon.
Because of the size of the part, and that nichicon has a stranglehold on the market, we had to order parts directly from them. When you need 2,000 to 4,000 per month, you use them far faster than the US car makers ordered for replacement parts. However, instead of ordering the 65C rated parts, like the OEMs used, we ordered the 105C parts. Still took 12-20 weeks to send the boxes from Japan to Florida. That is real fun committing your employer to buying stuff for a year at a time and having to wait months for each delivery.
Because of heat and humidity issues, the south florida climate accelerates the aging process for these parts. What fails in 2-3 years down here, may take take much longer for you folks who live with frost. Heck, car batteries only last 2 years before they need to be replaced.
>ECS has so far proven to be quite good. I've had their k7s5a for quite a while and it works excellently.
I'm happy about that, but you'll have no trouble proving that ECS is PcChips, and that PcChips changes their name occasionally (ok, very often) because it gets tarnished faster than iron by the sea. Basically, here's what PcChips does (very easy to verify, if you like):
- Pirates BIOS code.
- Manufactures and uses fake cache chips (ie: Plastic blobs with metal bits sticking out -- nothing inside).
- Fakes chipsets (they often make their own in-house chipsets, which are famous for being buggy and slow, and are known to brand/name them according to OEMs wishes)
- Uses misleading names on their in-house chipsets (eg: TXPro, VXPro, etc, etc)
- Fakes processor speeds (they used a batch of slower than expected chipsets and simply re-programmed the BIOS to always multiply the speed by 100, no matter what you set the FSB speed to)
- Uses low quality/grade parts whenever possible
- Makes chipsets that silently corrupt hard drives (my personal experience on another PcChips mobo about 3 years ago).
Also, a former PcChips employee informed me that PcChips executives were once sued for being involved in remarking processor speeds (can't verify this one, but it sure goes along with the other fraud PcChips commits).
There's more, read about PcChips here if you like. That site is the only place you're going to get help should you lose the box/manual to your mobo (since the majority don't have a model number marked), so keep it bookmarked! Deja can sometimes be some help if you want to check if your board is a PcChips board or not.
Some other PcChips brand names (ie: My short shitlist): Ability, Alton, Amptron, Aristo, Asia Gate, Asiatech, Assa, Atrend, Elpina, Eurone, EuroCom, Fugu, Fugutech, Hi Sing, Houston Tech, Hsing Tech, H Tech, Matsonic, Minstaple, PCWare, Pine, Protac, Warpspeed.
And, just to let you know, you'll find if you ever take the machine into a shop, they'll probably charge you double when they see a PcChips mobo inside. I know I do, because I know it's going to take twice as long to fix (if possible).
But hey, best of luck with the board! I've got one PcChips machine in the house, and other than having to disconnect the video before powering up, it's been fine for a couple of years.
If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC