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The Ethics of Desktop Chips Stuffed Into Laptop PCs
squareBIT writes "I recently found this article on THG about my SmartStep 250N having a desktop CPU stuffed into it. That's all fine and dandy. but when I paid for this thing, nobody told me it would run at HALF SPEED in battery mode. I don't recall there being any mention of this before I handed them thousands of dollars. Shouldn't there be some sort ethical ramifications put into action here? I feel so dirty ..." The least-satisfactory computer I've ever owned (won't even boot now) is a Toshiba with just such a chip -- wish I'd asked about that in the store.
If you bought an old Mustang and found out it was a four cylinder POS and not an eight cylinder monster would you feel cheated? Or would you feel stupid for not having researched a major purchase? Just because you have the cash on hand doesn't mean you have to buy something this second - check it out first. The internet is a fantastic way to learn the true specs of a product, especially computers. Use it.
Writers imply. Readers infer.
A CPU that only runs half as fast as you expect. Wouldn't that be a Cyrix or an AMD k5?
If I spend $50 on something I want to know exactly what I'm getting. If you spend $2000, and are this unimformed than you deserve what you get. You must not have read the specs very closely, or compared it with other models, or read many reviews. I guess you won't make the same mistake twice.
There is. Its called Battery Optimized Mode .
Not having a SmartStep 250N in front of me (as I no longer work at Dell) I can't say what the options are to get to this feature.
Most if not all Dell laptops have this option.
Cruising the internet on my TI-99/4A @ a whopping 300 baud!
If you pull out all the papers they gave you, and look at the REALLY REALLY REALLY fine print, it's there. Right next to the spot where you agree to give them your soul upon purchasing it.
The only reason I keep my Windows partition is so I can mount it like the bitch that it is.
Did you bother to figure out what SmartStep/SpeedStep means?
If you did a modicum of research you would know that you run at a far slower speed in battery mode.
Now Toshiba DOES allow you to fix this setting (in the control panels) but this should not come as a surprise to any educated consumer.
When I was shopping around for a laptop for my wife we came across a darling little Toshiba Portege- and one of the first things mentioned in the CNET review even mentioned "Mobile Pentium III with Intel SpeedStep technology" and went on to explain what SpeedStep meant.
So when my wife types away in class if she can't find an outlet she can expect it to be slow. Easy Solution.
O.T. P.S.: is it my connect, or is slashdot slow today?
In the future, I would want to not be isolated from my friends in the Space Station.
What you are talking about is actually a good feature for many laptops. If you want to maximize your performance while depending on battery, check your BIOS while booting. There probably is some switch for gliding between max. power savings and max. performance.
The article mentions in passing that the user has no control over this performance degradation.
Even if they did, it's hardly convienient have to reboot and enter the BIOS to rev up the processor in the midst of heavy operations.
I don't see why you would need it to run at the full speed on battery anyway. If you're doing something CPU-intensive enough to need the full speed of the chip, then you can almost certainly plug it in; for most other things, half speed is more than enough and doesn't even get noticed. It's not like you're only running with half the RAM active or something like that.
In fact, you mentioned that you saw it on THG. Did you notice it at all yourself when using the laptop? Or did it run just as well, and you just like getting offended at these sort of things (which seems like exactly what you're doing here).
This has been a test. Had this been a real emergency, we would have fled in terror and you would not have been informed.
This is a clear explanation of SpeedStep, it says as clear as day "You 500 mhz chip will operate at 300 mhz speeds"
I don't mean to give anyone a hard time but if you are going to spend more than $100 (or 0x64 dollars for that stupid hex guy) you would save a lot of aggrevation by doing some research.
In the future, I would want to not be isolated from my friends in the Space Station.
A friend of mine went through hell trying to get any customer service from Toshiba. Even when they finally agreed that he deserved a replacement, he got censored (and censured) for telling other customers.
Score: 5, Informative should, in this case, be Score: -1, Didn't Read The F'ing Article.
I quote: and So no, it is not a good feature for this laptop.four nine eighteen twenty-7 thirty-nine forty-7 fiftyeight sixty-nine seventy-9 eighty-8 one-hundred-and-nine one-twenty
It's a *WELL* publicized fact that laptops use power management in order to extend battery life. I mean, people deliberately go out and buy ultra-low voltage P3s with speedstep because they need the battery life...
Besides, it's pretty well known that *most* laptop action occurs in the *indoors* near "power outlets".
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I work in IT for a law firm. If any lawyer came up to me and asked for a laptop that did NOT have this feature (or to turn it off), I would laugh in their face. How hard is it to understand: 1) Computers have so much speed now that only the most graphic intensive game or the most complex calculations are going to come close to pushing their limit. 2) Batteries have not kept up with chips, and thus have laughable capacities for the things you use. 3) Unless you carry spare fully charged batteries with you, you have to be a moron not to use the incredibally helpfull feature that you are complaining about. Even if you are playing Doom, it is far better to play Doom for 2 hours with a slight jerkiness and speed reduction, than to lose power and have to kill the game 1 hour into your 2 hour train ride.
excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
There's not a whole lotta difference between "mobile" and desktop processors other than packaging.
Desktop CPU's use PGA's that were designed for socketed use. The extra 4 millimeters from the pins sticking out is worth it because it means the CPU can be swapped in and out. Flexibility is the goal here.
Mobile processors usually come in a BGA package because they're soldered directly to the motherboard via wave solder, or UV cured solder. Since they don't have that extra 4 millimeters of pins sticking out the bottom, their profile is smaller than that of a desktop processor.
Right now though, it seems a lot of manufacturers are at least trying to make the newer laptops as flexible as a desktop by offering expansion busses to replace the laptops video card, processor, ram ect.
Remember 7 or 8 years ago when you wanted to get laptop memory? Everytime you wanted to upgrade you would have to order a custom stick because the manufacturers were all doing their own thing. Back then they thought they had to keep every vertical market on their laptop to themselves. There were a few exceptions to this rule (chembook was one of the first to start using standard desktop parts in their laptops)
I don't think it's a bad thing either... Sorta lets you get more life outta your laptop.
This is labed as a "SmartStep" computer.
Do a little research on the net.
FROM Dell's WEbsite:
Power management features limit processor speed when running on battery.
You have no legal recourse when they make full disclosure.
These are manufactured in bulk, not like a house. Besides, you wouldn't actually buy your house without a final walkthrough! Your legal recourse would be to not buy the house!
In the future, I would want to not be isolated from my friends in the Space Station.
From Dell's online ordering: Power management features limit processor speed when running on battery.
There is no excuse for not reading this.
If you wonder "Gee, how much does it limit processor speed?" You should put down your credit card and start researching.
In the future, I would want to not be isolated from my friends in the Space Station.
"Like, I went to the store to buy this laptop, and uh, like I got it home, and figured out that if you didn't have it plugged into the wall, it runs like, um, half speed. *insert slow wierd sound here*
So, I returned it and bought an Apple iBook. I unplugged it from like the wall, and *insert strange zippy sound here* it was still running like at full speed.
I'm John, and I'm a certified Pron watcher."
It's either on the beat or off the beat, it's that easy.
I moderate therefore I rule!
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Laptops are "portable" computers, but not really "mobile". The distinction, as I see it, lies in the fact that even with a fully charged batteries, many laptops don't give very useful operating times unless you're plugged in to an AC outlet.
Assuming you can find an outlet wherever you're likely to want to use your PC, laptops can be a decent choice. But without access to an AC outlet, you're not going to find a laptop to be useful for more than 30-40 minutes or so.
I can't tell you how many times I've had my laptop just shut down with no warning because the AC cable was loose and I didn't notice, and I'd only been using the computer for maybe 20-30 minutes.
So that's why I say a laptop is portable, but not mobile. You can't really go that far with one while it's umbilical is plugged in, so it's not really fair to call a laptop mobile.
And, if you're going to be plugged in 90% + of the time you're using it, then you're not going to have to deal with the reduced performance issue anyway.
You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
With as slow as Slashdot is running today, did someone enable Speed Step on the Slashdot servers? Maybe Cowboy Neal unplugged the servers so they are running in battery mode!
The point is Dell is using desktop CPU's in their SmartStep model laptops - and as a result these laptops don't behave like you would expect from a laptop using a 'Speedstep' compliant chip.
.. or buttons on the keyboard etc ..
Desktop CPU's are not compatible with Speedstep technology (Speedstep reduces speed - but allows the user to bypass this if need be within software)
The Dell SmartStep laptop actually reduces your speed by half in battery mode and this CANNOT be altered via software
Dell makes no mention of this fact on their website, product brochures, or any other material you would read before purchasing the laptop.
2. Common sense would tell you that a desktop processor running at full speed would drain a battery far too quickly.
How does this apply to Apple and its PowerBooks/iBooks, which get far greater battery life than PC laptops? Sorry, but that's quite a broad generalization you've got there.
"Mod, mod, mod...and another troll bites the dust."
I shelled out big bucks for my "desktop replacement" Toshiba satellite 5000 which has a desktop PIII 1000GHz chip. Unfortunately, the processor runs so hot that it constantly overheated and powered down. The BIOS "fix" clocks down the CPU when it gets hot (which is always) so it doesn't shut down spontaneously any more, but now I have a VERY expensive pentium two equivalent. When you apply the BIOS fix it changes the BIOS so that the install disks which contain the gimped version of your Win OS won't unstall on the "unrecognized laptop" until you take it in to an authorized dealer.
Not to mention that this laptop doesn't even have a standard bios that you can configure. It's some wierd proprietary thing that lets you make a password and select boot priority and that's it.
The sound is problematic too because it runs through ACPI, which is fine for windows, but very difficult if you want to run linux. So for the one in four linux distros that can actually boot up on this laptop, so far none of them have sound that works.
Toshiba won't do a thing to help you when you get these headaches. I would stay away from buying a brand new laptop until you can do a little research to see what sort of problems will crop up.
I just recently bought a Toshiba Satelite 1200 and have been pretty happy with the performance. It has a power managment console that allows you tell it what mode to run in. In the full power mode you run your processor at full power. One of the default modes is power conserve mode where you processor runs at lower and lower speeds as the power drains. However you can run the full power mode when running on just batteries, you just don't get as much battery life. I still find I get close to the advertised 3 hours. My two biggest complaints about the Toshiba is that the bottom tends to get hot, and there is no docking station port. All in all, really happy.
THIS SPACE FOR RENT
As I recall the first company to use the "smartstep" approach to portable computing was Apple with the 5300 series. However their solution then (even better with OS X) was only to run the CPU at what was required. If you were on the road and needed all the CPU horsepower, you got it, but inbetween clicks and hard drive activity, the CPU throttled down.
As to the chips themselves, lower power RISC chips actually can be used in both desktops and laptops and you don't have to deal with this sort of engineering workaround of marketing. The other issue with using many desktop chips in laptops is heat. For instance, my mother purchased an Wintel laptop with a desktop chip that was designed with a huge fan on the bottom of the computer, so that if you actually placed it on your lap, you would block the fan and the laptop would overheat and shutdown. I bought her a Powerbook (the first Mac she ever owned) and she has never gone back to the Wintel crowd. It's thin, it's light and she always has all the power she needs battery or AC power.
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As I understand it, the SmartStep systems with desktop CPUs are targeted toward a business-traveller market that just wants a portable high-power system. They don't care about battery life, since they can plug it in when they're in a conference room, with projector attached. What they want is raw performance. As has already been noted, you'd do well to research your purchases in the future.
These people looked deep into my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined.
It is called SmartStep. That should have been a major clue.
I thought that meant it was optimized for running a NeXT platform on!
If you bought an old Mustang and found out it was a four cylinder POS and not an eight cylinder monster would you feel cheated?
.8 Ghz faster than my current 1.2 Ghz computer."
I would feel cheated if the dealer told me it was an eight cylinder mark2, and expected me to do extra research to find out that the mark2 eight cylinder engine would disable half the cylinders whenever I took it out of the driveway.
The problem has two possible solutions (and I'd recommend a combination of both):
1. Consumers should better educate themselves before buying, or
2. Companies should avoid using misleading advertisements.
Most folks see a laptop ad that says "2.0 Ghz processor featuring SpeedStep technology," but only come away believing that "this new 2.0 Ghz computer is
We've seen similar naming problems with 3d graphics cards. Geforce4 MX (slower than Geforce 3ti) vs. Geforce 4 4600 (faster than 3ti), or Radeon 9700 vs. Radeon 9700 Pro. Sometimes "Pro" or "Deluxe" means better. Other times "Pro" or "Deluxe" means crappier. (Ok so deluxe usually means crappier, but you get my point)
I think the main problem stems from the fact that computer performance cannot be fairly conveyed in a few convenient, marketable numbers. AMD has been combating that status quo with their XP naming scheme; Athlon Tbird 1.4 Ghz vs. new Athlon XP 1600 (runs at 1.4 Ghz) vs. Pentium 1.6 Ghz.
So, who is responsible for getting the information to the customer that speedstep technology would significantly slow down their portable computer whenever they go on battteries?
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That being said, every state in the US has a version of the Uniform Commercial Code. Section 2-313 deals with Express Warranties. Any affirmation of fact or promise or description of the goods creates an express warranty which is breached if the goods sold and delivered do not conform to the factual affirmation or description or if the promise made is broken. For example, if the processor speed is labeled as 1 GHz, the consumer is entitled to rely on the 1 GHz measure. A split 1 GHz/500 MHz ration when running on AC/battery does not conform to the affirmation of fact (processor speed) made by the merchant and could be said to breach the express warranty.
Section 2-314 is the Implied Warranty of Merchantability. The warranty is created simply by virtue of making the sale. If the goods sold are not such that would pass without objection in the trade then the warranty has been breached. Here, the argument would be that the industry creates mobile versions of chips for laptops because of battery life concerns. If someone wants to depart from that practice and use a speed slowdown to reduce power consumption, then that fact must be disclosed and agreed-to by the consumer prior to the sale. Otherwise, the consumer is entitled to rely on the standard practice when making the purchase. Such undisclosed use of "slowed" desktop processors would not pass without objection in the trade and could be said to breach the implied warranty of merchatability.
Additionally, virtually every state has a "Little FTC Act" or Consumer Protection statute. These statutes outlaw "unfair or deceptive" business practices. Breaches of warranty are usually automatic violations of these statutes. The penalty is usually up to three times your damages (for example, the cost of your laptop times 3) plus attorneys fees if you hire a lawyer.
Laws affecting technology will always be bad until enough techies become lawyers.
New MTV special: Fans unplugged.
Considered harmful.
Our local Fry's is selling these things under the brand QuickNote. We bought two of them for customer visits to our co. and we may get a few more. It has an AMD desktop 1Ghz cpu in it with a massive heatpipe -> a copper radiator like structure. Amazing looking. It has NO battery. Don't let the A/C cord fall out! It has WindowsXP home prebundled. Uses DDR PC2100 memory (128Meg of which windows only see's 96, must be the AGP screen buffer eats the other 32Mb). Think about that price for a moment... XP alone is like $100 to an OEM (or is it?...)
Also the unit has a warning on it that the feet must be in the down position, tilting the case off the flat so that airflow can move to the radiator.
I had heard when the P4 came out, Taiwan Inc figured out how to duct the heat out of a desktop cpu based notebook so they could be the first to offer a P4 notebook.
Hedley
Speedstep is a fairly easy thing to research; they make a point of saying that laptops have it.. it's quite clearly labeled as such....
And a speedstep enabled machine will let you run it at full clock all the time if you want to, easily. For instance, my laptop has a nice button on the windows system tray that lets me flip it between different cpu settings.
In this case, the laptop does NOT have speedstep, it's a desktop processor, and the laptop is basically hardwired to run it at half speed when the AC is disconnected, the user has absolutely no way to change this behavior.
It's not a common behavior, and one I think most readers here would not even know about until they looked in detail at those specific models of laptop.
No, Mhz is not an all-encompasing speed indicator. but it's still quite releveant, and the difference between 1Ghz and 500Mhz is rather large, especially when you are forking out several thousand dollars.
So, instead of "feeling dirty" because the people who designed your laptop were intelligent about it, why not "feel dirty" because you don't know enough about computers to understand why this is an issue, or maybe "feel dirty" because you've been sucked into the trap of thinking that clock speed is the be-all and end-all of computer performance.
Case in point; Back when MFM hard drives were the only show in town, I built my first computer from parts. After a few weeks researching each part, I boldly went in and asked for a 1:1 hard drive controller -- paying extra for it -- along with the other premium pieces needed to build the beast.
Meaningless fact: The old MFM drives would not necessarily be fast enough to continuously read data. Instead, they would read a track, fill up, and then skip a track or more; the disk would have a 1:2, 1:3, ... interleaving of tracks. If the drive and controller were in tune, the data could be read one track after another with no gaps; 1:1 interleave.
After putting it all together, I ran some tests and found that data was being read from the drive with a 1:2 interleave. When I accused the uber geek salesman back at the store of giving me the wrong parts, his only comment -- sealed with a grin -- was;
Since then, I've assumed that no matter how I plan something isn't going to be right.
A firewall can not protect you from yourself. Turn off what you do not need. Do not use the firewall to do your work.
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Dell makes no mention of this fact on their website, product brochures, or any other material you would read before purchasing the laptop
Actually, Dell does. On the product web page.
Look at the actual web page detailing the computer.
First, see footnote #2. "Power management features limit processor speed when running on battery."
Then go up the page to where it has "Learn More" next to Processors, and click on it. That explains the difference between a Penitum 4 and a Pentium 4-M. Look at the "Details" tab and note the footnote on the Pentium 4 speeds that says "Power management features limit processor speed when running on battery."
Now, finally, note that there's no M after the processor name in the specs.
What does this mean? Dell both said that speed is reduced when running on battery AND that it isn't the mobile processor. All on the product web page.
75% of the Windows laptops I have been assigned over the last 5 years have had that "feature."
Yes, feature. In each case the builder added little stickers and tray icons saying how it had a "power saving feature" that slows down the CPU to save battery power. The tray icon points to an applet that controls what triggers the speed drop.
The biggest offenders in my case where IBM and Toshiba. Neither could play a full DVD. I remember one specific instance that the battery died right at the intermission for 2001: A Space Odyssey!
My 600 MHz iBook on OS X 10.2 has this kind of feature in the system preferences, but as far as I can tell it defaults to full power. You would have to specifically set it to cut performance to save power. And I can watch a whole DVD without sweating it out.
Pedro
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The Insomniac Coder