Movielink Snubs DRM-less Macs

mcwetboy writes "CNET reports that the Macintosh is being shut out of online movie services like Movielink, and connects it to the Mac's lack of digital-rights management. From the article: '[Apple VP] Schiller says Apple has not released much in the way of protective technology ... because effective techniques for securing content without interfering with the experience of consumers have not yet been invented.' A consumer-friendly attitude towards DRM may be a double-edged sword (content may not be made available for that platform), but if the content is locked out of the Mac for that reason, do I really want it anyway?" In other news, the USSR provided free bread only to the poor people.

Comments

And I'm going to miss this how?

[lennywood1]

I dont watch movies on my G4 anyway. If I want to watch a movie, I watch it on my TV where I can be comfortable. But I do enjoy the lack of DRM on my mac.

DRM's dirty little secret

[tucay]

As Steve Jobs has pointed out is that DRM's dirty little secret is that it does not work and will always be hackable.

The answer is to make reliable, quality, fairly price downloads available. Don't assume your customers want to be criminals.

Re:DRM's dirty little secret

[BigBir3d]

The answer is to make reliable, quality, fairly price downloads available. Don't assume your customers want to be criminals.

That statement does not follow the mantra of Microsoft, hence it is wrong.

Don't you guys pay attention ;-)

Re:DRM's dirty little secret

[runenfool]

The problem is that Microsoft is telling execs that it CAN be protected. Thus they believe it and lock out other platforms.

It doesn't matter if its true or not, Gates/Ballmer are telling them what they want to hear.

Re:DRM's dirty little secret

[BrookHarty]

I use http://sourceforge.net/projects/asfrecorder/ to download those nice protected microsoft media files.

OF course for how long it will still work, I have no idea.

Re:DRM's dirty little secret

[Bonker]

This is a software developer's greatest weakness.

If your customer tells you he wants his product to do x, then you give him a piece of software that will do x, even if you know he really wants y and z.

Case in point... DeCSS. The entire CSS scheme, which is fairly robust on its surface, revolved around having a secret key... a secret key that was going to be included in millions of decoder chips and in hundreds of software releases available to millions of people.

All the technical genius in the world can see that the second the key was in the hands of the public in one way or the other, it would be copied and it would be redistributed. The only reason that Jon Johansen got in trouble was because he was a kid and really didn't understand how many powerful entities he was upsetting when he released DeCSS. A person who had to copy the key off of a eprom or decrypt it out of DVD player firmware would probably understand a little better than someone who took a debugger to RealPlayer and found the key there, unencrypted.

The developers of the DeCSS scheme *knew* this would happen, as did the technical minds that came up with the CD watermarking protection scheme. Their bosses, the ones directing the development pretended like they didn't know, but you know they did.

Re:DRM's dirty little secret

[neuroticia]

*Microsoft*?! Hah. It doesn't follow the Mantra of the RIAA and MPA. Their mantra is "In every customer is a possible criminal." and "If they can use it, they can steal it, therefore they should pay without having the privilidge of using it, so that we can continue to create more stuff along the lines of Brittney Spears"

Microsoft might *encourage* the mentality, but Microsoft encourages a lot of stupid mentalities. The MPA/RIAA are the problem, not Microsoft. It's the MPA/RIAA that are pushing for insane copyright measures. I know it's fun to hate Microsoft, but let's not let it detract from the people we should *REALLY* be hating.

-Sara

Re:DRM's dirty little secret

[macdaddy357]

We can punish the entertainment industry by not buying their products. We forced software manufacurers to give up copy protection in the Commodore 64 days by not buying the crap, and by cracking the copy protection with programs like renegade and maverick. We can do it again.

Re:DRM's dirty little secret

[Oculus Habent]

Not quite.

The initial askind for ID is more like the Product Key - making sure you have the right to use the product.

The Activation is like being asked for your ID every time you open the bottle of liquor in your house.

I understand their motivation. Most people don't frig around with their computers enough to be bothered by this, and it helps them prevent some level of misuse.

(I know I'll get responses to this one...)
I dare say that more people were angered because they couldn't steal the software as easily than because they were serious upgrade fiends.

It does negatively affect people who have legal copies of the software and like to upgrade their computers. I would be in that group if I didn't still use Windows 98 for my PC.

Are we at a point where companies are expected not to do things in their best interests? DRM, if implemented well, could be a painless thing. Now I agree it's not implemented well, and shouldn't been pushed on people until such time. But then, if we held to that theory, no one would be using half the stuff out there. WPA, it's not too painful - (among other things the telephone part could be better - transition the alpha-numeric code into simple sentances or something easier to deal with...) and yet we still scream about Microsoft being manipulative bastards.

Well, yes, they are. And it's not reasonable for Microsoft to want to know what's in my computer (hardware-wise) at any given time. But there are millions of people using Windows who have never seen a Windows CD out of it's box, much less touched a Genuine Microsoft CD.

What Microsoft should really do to increase legal customer base is offer an amnesty period to people who have illegal copies of Windows. They should offer a downloadable program (something like WPA) that specs your computer and allows the purchase of one copy of Windows for $100. And that should be tracked, quite well, to catch offenders.
--
Some of the things I've said may not apply to you.
Some of the things I've said may offend you.
But no matter who you are,
You MUST REMEMBER this ONE THING:
--
My Other Shirt Is An Armani

Quote too long

[gorilla]

because effective techniques for securing content without interfering with the experience of consumers have not yet been invented.'

The correct quote is "Effect techniques for securing content have not yet been invented."

When Apples Introduces DRM...

[Bouncings]

What is implicit in the Schiller's statement... "There are some real challenges in DRM, It's important to protect artists' rights and we want to do that...but no one has been able to make a model that works."

So Apple supports the idea of DRM, just not the implementation? That's just as bad if you ask me, and I also think this looks new. In the past, I've only seen Apple on the side of "no DRM" -- now it seems they would be willing to implement DRM if it were done in a way that doesn't interfere with the user experience?

Just an observation.

Re:When Apples Introduces DRM...

[runenfool]

They do not support DRM, they support the right of artists to get paid for their work. Judging by what we have seen so far Apple promotes fair use but expects people to not steal things.

Re:When Apples Introduces DRM...

[Have Blue]

No. Apple supports the idea of not stealing or infringing copyright. However, unlike everyone else, they are not willing to pursue this goal at the expense of existing functionality and their customer's rights.

Re:When Apples Introduces DRM...

[thatguywhoiam]

So Apple supports the idea of DRM, just not the implementation?

Erm, hm. That's a strange interpretation.

I think what Schiller is saying is 'Apple supports the idea that artists should get paid for their works. Apple recognizes that no one has figured out an effective way to do this yet.'

This is basically the line in the sand where we see if Apple really has balls. If content (with demand, mind you - Movielink is a bad joke) starts to appear regularly with DRM embedded, we'll see if Apple sticks to their guns. It may save them in the end if they do.

Re:When Apples Introduces DRM...

[aftk2]

In the past, I've only seen Apple on the side of "no DRM" -- now it seems they would be willing to implement DRM if it were done in a way that doesn't interfere with the user experience?

I don't see this as too big of a deal. First off, I consider this statement some sort of damage control - "Hey, Hollywood, we're your friends, remember?"

Secondly (and much more important), the "user experience" you mention is actually synonymous with a user's fair use rights. Apple finds the idea of protecting artists' work a good one, but not at the expense of fair use rights. Apple sells the iPod. Apple sells Apple-branded Superdrives. But at the bottom of all those commercials are the words "Don't Steal Music." Apple has never taken a friendly stance toward piracy. They are friendly towards consumers, however.

Re:When Apples Introduces DRM...

[g4dget]

They do not support DRM, they support the right of artists to get paid for their work.

Please stop mindlessly repeating the PR party line of movie studios. This isn't about artists, this is about the profits of big corporations.

Judging by what we have seen so far Apple promotes fair use but expects people to not steal things.

What about consumer rights? If I pay for a piece of copyrighted content, I have a right to fair use of that content. DRM keeps me from that.

Re:When Apples Introduces DRM...

[Iguanaphobic]

It's called a book.

not tracking or tethering the user in any way

I buy. I leave the store. End of story.

allowing the user to view the content on any machine

Any old eyeballs will do

allow the user to study and learn about the encoding scheme used

Read books on language, typesetting, bookbinding etc.

allowing the user to copy the content for his own use, or to give to friends

Photocopyer, writing, speaking into a microphone as you read. And then give the output or the original to friends.

allowing the user to create new collage-type works for the purposes of satire or commentary

Scissors :-)

allow the user to re-sell the content when he's through with it

Used book stores.

yet prevent China-type mass "piracy"

Publishers are still in business, so it must be working for them.

Seriously, the ultimate digital DRM would be something with all the attributes of a book.

Re:When Apples Introduces DRM...

[g4dget]

Now, if you buy something and agree to a supplemental limitation of rights, than you in fact have no non-explicit rights (ie, not defined in the contract). [...] You buy DRM'd content and you agree in fact to waive your fair use, first sale, and other consumer rights. Its basic contract law.

It's not supposed to work like that for copyrights, and for good reason: publishers would collude to eliminate fair use if they could. For books, we warded off that threat, but for on-line movies, it is happening.

More generally, you cannot waive arbitrary rights in contracts; many rights are guaranteed to you no matter what the contract says. Fair use has traditionally been such a right, and it should continue to be for digital media.

If DRM bugs you though, the obvious answer is not to buy into it.

That's a free market argument. The problem is that there is no free, competitive market in movies. I don't have a wide choice of sellers for equivalent products and I can't negotiate conditions with individual sellers. It's a take-it-or-leave-it proposition.

You can justify any monopoly with your kinds of libertarian platitudes. But the fact is that if we want a free market, we need to regulate things like copyright and fair use carefully.

Reality Check

[RAMMS EIN]

``if the content is locked out of the Mac for that reason, do I really want it anyway?''
Maybe not if you're an idealist. The vast majority wants the content for the content, not because it does or doesn't work on Macs.

Oh Well

[Marc2k]

This whole Movielink thing suffers one point: digital video will (probably) always be either a) large, or b) low quality. Broadband has caught on to a large degree, but not as large as anyone thought it would, and certainly not enough for the huge streaming video boom that was supposed to happen. This means that while I'm not exactly sure which choice Movielink will make, either it will take 80% US users a day and a half to download a movie, or it will be so poor quality that their is no motivation not to go rent from Hollywood Video down the road. The only people who can't drive under 15 minutes to a local video rental store are almost certainly operating on 56k or less (except for those towns offering their own DSL ;-)). In either case, fine. I'll be just happy going to Mom & Pop's Video Store down the road and renting the new LOTR DVD to watch on my PowerBook.

if u can write, u can't buy book

[u19925]

in another news, book publishers association has banned selling books to people who can write or type. "once you can type, you can copy a book and sell or share a pirated book", says one of the top publisher spokesperson on condition of anonymity. this means, many internet book publishers will not be able to sell the books to people who are not using voice interactive browsers like IE. they would only be allowed to place order via voice, including credit card information. in another news, USA has banned teaching writing in schools. "Writing will only be taught on need basis in advanced courses", says LA school board district administrator.

Best DRM scheme to date

[androse]

Apple invented the best DRM scheme to date. It's a transparent sticker aposed on all iPods. It's says :

Don't steal the music.

That's it.

Not news, just propaganda!

[standards]

This is industry propaganda - they "want" to support the Macintosh, but they "can't" due to the "limited availability of Mac software".

Or, perhaps we could re-phrase their double-speak:

"We don't like Apple's attitude. Therefore, we're going to hose their customers... not by saying that Apple is wrong, but by saying that the Mac platform is poorly supported by the software industry! Heh, that'll learn them".

Again, the customers are in the middle.... between the computer industry, which has a disdain for controlling their customers and industry self-overregulation, and the "DRM" industry, whose only purpose is to control customers.

Since Apple was technically correct in their claims, the DRM folk could only counter by kicking Apple between the legs.

Let's read this article and it's topic as it should be - a power-play by the DRM industry, against Apple's ideal of fully supporting it's customer base.

Don't know if it's been said yet...

[Zergwyn]

...but it is vitally important that you actually let Apple know if you like their stance! I have seen posts already that say something to the effect of 'I applaud Apple for their policy...'. Don't tell us (the slashdot audience), tell Apple. They are about to come up against the big sword that hangs over all who would try to hold out, and this sword packs power: exlusive content. Media is going to come out in formats that are DRM exclusive. We say now that if it's DRM, what good is it? But what if the next Lord of The Rings was available in a DRM format only, or what if it was something else we really wanted? This isn't about just dumb movies or boy bands, this is about the future of all media.

Apple is going to come under pressure from its own customers to include support for this stuff. If we want them to stay on the high road and not curb consumer's rights, we need to tell them, both in words and with our wallets when possible. The same goes for any company that takes a similar stance. It may behoove you to go to their feedback page and tell them what you think, before they become convinced that nobody cares.

What they really mean...

[AtariDatacenter]

"We didn't want to go through all of the waste of creating compatiblity with a minority of users running Apple (or Linux for that matter). So, we will use this as an opportunity to forward our own issues and blame it on a lack of suitable DRM. So, we'll deflect the issue, and advance one of our own goals at the same time."

Do Americans Want Freedom or Bread and Circuses?

[FreeUser]

The real question that is likely to be answered is

"Do Americans care more about the freedoms for which hundreds of thousands of their forfather's died, or the Bread and Circuses Hollywood offers?"

In truth, the question will likely become more generic when this dreck is exported to the rest of the world:

"Will people care more about the bread and Circuses America's Hollywood offers them, or the freedoms they, their parents, and their grandparents have died trying to secure for them?"

Depressingly, the former will likely fall into the "Take away any liberties you like, but don't take away my Seinfeld!" here in the states. However, with hardware made in Taiwan and GNU/Linux displacing Windows in governments (and to some degree on the street) in most of the non-American world, the answer the rest of the world gives to the question will be very intersting, and I suspect a very rude surprise to the copyright cartels of New York and Hollywood, and those software and hardware purveyors that kowtow to them.

Put This in an Ad Now!!!

[toupsie]

CNET reports that the Macintosh is being shut out of online movie services like Movielink, and connects it to the Mac's lack of digital-rights management

This is what consumers want. Everytime business puts barriers to entertainment in front of consumers, they bypass it. People really, really like to be entertained and will go to some outlandish methods to obtain it -- Gladiators anyone?I like Apple's philosphy towards DRM, its a social issue not a technology issue. "Don't steal Music!" as it said on the sticker on my iPod.

This is no biggie for Apple. Just remember:
1) How long does it take to download a film than to drive to Blockbuster and get a DVD?
2) Would you rather watch a film on a 27" TV or a 17" Computer Monitor?
3) Apple has no DRM! You computer is free to read and write what you want! Its like Linux except it has a usable desktop environment and has great consumer apps...iMovie anyone?

another quote

[EccentricAnomaly]

also from the article: But Mac choices for file swapping are severely limited compared to options for the PC. Two of the most popular services--Kazaa and Morpheus--do not support the Mac in their latest versions.

so the article is saying that there will be no movies for mac because there's no DRM on mac, and people could copy the movies, burn them to DVDs, upload them onto a windows machine, and put them on P2P networks??

silly hollywood.

How to beat DRM

[mdechene]

DRM is only effective at keeping good, computer-confused citizens from using their computers to their full potentials.

Good IP thiefs will remain good IP thiefs indefinately.

Want to copy a DRM'd song? Wire the speaker-out to the line-in on another computer and record it as a Wav, then MP3 it. Want to copy a DRM'd video? Use a camcorder. Or better yet. Use one of those video cards that sends it to a VCR, DVD-R, or HI-8, and record the video output from the screen. Seriously, DRM will not work against pirates, and only serves to prevent legitimate users from using to their full potential.

And I spend months of my life prostituting myself working on this bunk..........

Audible.com

[Triv]

Audible did it right by apple - you can buy their files from audible.com (and they're CHEAP ;), download 'em to your Mac and (get this): play them anywhere! You can play 'em on an iPod (or other MP3 player), play 'em on your mac or even burn 'em to CDs. You can make backups. You can transfer to different media. It's a proprietary audio format, sure, but one so transparent that the only thing it prevents you from doing is filesharing it. I mean, you can, but it won't work without your login and password. It seems like the perfect system to me: You wouldn't think of sharing it because it won't work anyway, but what's the point when what you want is cheap, easy to get and freely portable?

DRM can work for all concerned, in a way that doesn't violate anyone's rights and stil pays the artists. Why hasn't anyone else tried this?

Triv

Who cares?

[gsfprez]

This story is 100% bullshit. None of the pay-for-stale_media services has ever worked out. Yet, this article touts that these services are the wave of the future...?! Its not news to call listen-per-pay the future.. its and damn lie.

So the RIAA approves a few crippled download services and the MPAA approves a few crippled download services... so what? Its been done before... failures of Biblical proportions. Why didn't they report that?

In the real world, DVD's are open media (thanks to our friend who's paying for it with his freedom)... and what's going on in the world of DVD sales?

DVD sales are making them money hand over fist.. they can't buy enough trucks to take the money to the bank fast enough.

This story is bullshit because it doesn't note that 1/2 of the protection was taken off of a DVD last year in a underreported coup.. and what happend? Hary Potter.. which was both un-Macrovisioned AND was on the P2P nets long before the theatrical release became the biggest selling DVD of all time..

from the article..."[the iMac] also has a large contingent of early adopters, who likely would be interested in trying out technologies such as video on demand. "

That is not news... that is bullshit.

note to c|net... those iMac adopters can ALREADY watch Harry Potter, you NONCES!. They bought the open media format on DVD and are already watching it! Do you have to practice to be this stupid?

the real truth will be found out in the next 5 years.. who will proseper - open media or crippled formats? The trending up of DVD sales and the trending down of CD sales... which are being more and more crippled each day. Or the new cripple-ware services....

I'm putting my money on the open media standards....

What the article also doesn't do a good enough job of it pointing out WHY Final Cut Pro, TiBooks and linux renderfarms are the darling of Hollywood.. and all content creators....

The reason is.. they are not DRM-crippled.

Damnit... it should be against the law to call your site news.com when you are nothing but Microsoft and now, DRM shills... with no actual desire to report news.

WM and Real DRM works on a Mac

[benwaggoner]

This is all rather besides the point. Even if Apple doesn't provide system-level DRM, application-level DRM works just fine in the formats MovieLink is using (RealMedia and Windows Media). And Windows, while they talk about system-level DRM eventually with Palladium, doesn't have it either today.

So, whatever MovieLink might claim is their reason, they aren't technical. They probably don't want to do it for marketshare reasons, and are using Apple's DRM statements (which are really rather mild) as an excuse/flogging horse.

One of many DRM issues with Macs...

[agent oranje]

A week ago, I went to cdnow.com to look up an album. To my surprise, they had per-song downloads at a somewhat reasonable cost. As I only wanted one song, I read through their FAQs to find out if I'd have any issues playing the song under MacOS X, they had the following section about supported formats:

Music can be encoded in a variety of formats, such as MP3, a2b, MPEG, Liquid Audio and RealAudio. Some formats, such as MP3, can be played on a variety of players (programs that play various audio formats), while other encoding formats must be played using a particular player.

Okay, that's nice and vauge. However, MP3s aren't an issue ,or MPEGS, and RealAudio I can manage. A2B...? No idea. And then there was Liquid Audio, which has clients for Mac and Windows, as well as plugins for RealPlayer. So all is good! I can play the file under pretty much any circumstances!

So, of course, it wasn't mp3, or mpeg, or realaudio. It was the Liquid Audio format...

I downloaded and installed the player, which runs under classic a-ok, until you actually try to play the files. Upon searching, it is explicitly incompatible with MacOS X, as are the RealPlayer plugins to listen to the files as well. There are no alternative players. In reading a bit more, I also found that Microsoft bought all of the intellectual property rights from the creators of Liquid Audio in September, so now the task of writing a player for MacOS X falls into their lap...

Fair use rights...? What are those? I paid money for this song, and can't listen to it. In speaking to cdnow's customer service, they informed me that I needed to get the proper player for my operating system. This was in reply to my saying "There isn't a player for OS X."

So, Mac users, linux users, BSD users, and the rest of the gang unfortunately get it up the poop chute when it comes to DRM-based media. I paid for a song and couldn't listen to it, as the DRM won't let me! I'd be more bitter about my lack-of-refund if I didn't get the song 10 minutes afterwards from my local friendly P2P clients... at a much higher bitrate, too... If getting things LEGALLY were as easy as getting them pirated, maybe people wouldn't be stealing so much music, eh?

Re:anyone know who to email?

[Karma Sink]

sjobs@apple.com

He actually reads it. I've worked in Apple support, and I've seen him respond to a customer's e-mail a few times. He's the big gun, and he'll notice if his mailbox gets slashdotted with praising e-mails on this subject.