Lik-Sang To Take On The Big 3?

kableh writes "According to a press release on Lik-Sang's website, the gaming accessory company has new management, and is prepared to mount a strong defense in their upcoming lawsuit against Microsoft, Nintendo, and Sony. "Just a few days after having received High Court Orders not allowing us to sell Mod Chip products for the Playstation 2 and Flash Linker products for the Nintendo Gameboy Advance, Lik Sang realized that the powers of those three multi-billion dollar corporations are simply infinite compared to the budgets and resources businesses like Lik Sang have available. Their legal actions have been hurting our customers and our business a lot in the last couple of weeks, so that we have finally decided to let somebody else take over Lik-Sang.com and solely concentrate on the lawsuit", says Alex Kampl, Director of Lik Sang International Limited."

Comments

Customers First

[Doomrat]

"Their legal actions have been hurting our customers and our business a lot"

That's something you don't see often - they mentioned customers first. Lik-Sang really are great, and I'm personally glad to see them sticking it to the man.

Re:Customers First

[Hunterdvs]

Hrrrm yes they want to put customers first. I don't think so. I bought a flash linker a number of days before the lawsuit hit. A month later I get a form email telling me I will recieve a refund the first day of november. Well it's november 22, and i still havn't recieved a refund for an item i should have recieved in september.
Lucky for me my credit card company issued me a refund (credit card policy, not lik sang) and as far as i know they have not had any luck with lik sang either.

I'm not alone in this situation, just search google groups for a large list of people who made off a whole lot worse that I did, especially the ones who sent them money orders and paypal orders.

If lik sang really wanted to put the customers first they would answer our emails and/or issue refunds that are months overdue. Lik sang is in it for the cash, nuff said.

...difficult

[sheean.nl]

Sueing only Microsoft is virtualy impossible, sueing Nintendo, Sony AND Microsoft is going to be quite a suicidal task... how much money do they have to burn?

Re:...difficult

[cryptor3]

Just for the record, Lik Sang isn't doing the suing, it's doing the defending.

More like the Big Two-and-a-Half

[Guppy06]

Watch some video game commercials on TV. You'll notice that the games are published for GameCube, Playstation 2, Game Boy Advance, PC... and a distinct lack of Xbox support. The only games I see advertized for Xbox are only for Xbox (which suggests poor third-party support), and they've now resorted to the marketing gimmick of giving away free games with the console.

Mod me down all you want, but I can't escape the impression that Xbox is floundering. Software houses that stressed they were going to be hardware agnostic a year ago now... aren't. Barring any miracles, I forsee the Xbox going the way of 3DO in less than a year. They just don't have the first- and second-party support to keep their heads above water.

Re:More like the Big Two-and-a-Half

[gss]

I wouldn't count out M$ just yet, they still have plenty of cash to throw at XBox. We all know that when Microsoft wants to dominate a market segment they are usually pretty relentless until they get what they want. They have bought exclusive rights to some titles just to boost Box sales.

Also I think Xbox live might make them more of a viable competitor, from what I've heard it's a better user experience compared to Nintendo and Sony's online offerings, albeit a pay service. I know several people who have bought Xboxes recently just for Xbox live. So who knows, it will be interesting to see where these console wars go.

I think it's great...

[ThogScully]

...to see people really stick up for what they think is right, especially when so many people aren't willing to play ball with such big corporate identities. This seems to be a a pattern lately.

Hopefully, it can become a huge PR boost to take on a big powerful company and let the common people know more about these sort of conflicts. That can act as extra incentive for small companies to stick up for their rights and further bring attention to these problems.
-N

Re:I think it's great...

[Tofuhead]

It's very easy and comforting to romanticize Lik-Sang's reasons for being so adamant in their own defense, but you have to realize that, above all, they are protecting their bottom line. Their clientele is largely composed of mod-chippers, and if they can't please these people, business will suffer.

It's similar to how Apple caters so well to their Mac customers. It's an effective means towards an ultimate goal (PROFIT!!!), not proof of Steve Jobs' undying love for the unwashed masses.

That being said, I also admire Lik-Sang for what they are doing. But I admire them for the balls that it takes to stand up to the big console manufacturers, not for their virtuous behavior in defense of the little guy.

< tofuhead >

MS and Sony should follow Nintendo's example

[Samir Gupta]

We had developed a special proprietary media for the GameCube, which makes piracy all but impossible. There is also no internal hard drive to act as storage, either. Therefore, you don't see much GameCube warez or modchips floating about, compared to the PS2 and Xbox scene.

MS and Sony, with their resources, should have invested time and money to develop proprietary media as well.

Re:MS and Sony should follow Nintendo's example

[neonstz]

I am the (proud?) owner of a PS2 (not modded), GC, X-Box (modded) and a GBA (with Flash Linker).

First, what I really hate is the region system all systems (except GBA) use. I live in Europe, and I feel it is sad that I have to wait several months for some titles (like Metroid Prime and Super Monkey Ball 2). I'm really looking forward to the Freeloader for GC (if it ever ships).

The reason Sony and Microsoft didn't use a proprietary media is because both PS2 and X-Box are supposed to be more than a game console. I'm not sure if that was a wise move, but the X-Box do at least have a potential as a home entertainment system (although not exactly the way Microsoft wanted it :).

What I really wonder is why Nintendo joined Sony and Microsoft suing Lik-Sang. The flashlinker is not just for copying games, but for developing too. I have written some GBA demos, and I the GBA is a really nice piece of hardware. I never use my GBA for games anyway, as I only own one (original) game. (I'm really considering buying Super Monkey Ball Jr, that game is just incredible!)

And... is this a hoax or is this for real?

Re:MS and Sony should follow Nintendo's example

[ymgve]

We had developed a special proprietary media for the GameCube, which makes piracy all but impossible. There is also no internal hard drive to act as storage, either. Therefore, you don't see much GameCube warez or modchips floating about, compared to the PS2 and Xbox scene.

Fine. So, can you now lower the price of your games, since you're obviously not affected by picary anymore?

Re:MS and Sony should follow Nintendo's example

[MrWa]

MS and Sony, with their resources, should have invested time and money to develop proprietary media as well.

A better idea would be to let me play a game that I buy anywhere in the world on the system that I already own. That's the problem - proprietary systems may be nice for the manufacturer that wants to limit my ability to play legally purchases games without buying second system; for the enduser they are nothing but frustrating.

Legal standing...

[BSOD from above]

if they continue to make and distribute the mod chips without implying that they be used to modify a proprietary system, on what grounds can they be sued?

Put a big disclaimer on the side that says:

DO NOT USE THIS CHIP IN PLACE OF U19 IN THE SONY PLAYSTATION 2 MAIN BOARD VER. 1.3, DOING SO WILL VOID THE WARRANTY AND MAY BE A VIOLATION OF APPLICABLE LAW ...then tell the big three were to stick it...

Re:Cry me a river

[mangu]

manufacturing or selling mod chips is obviously against the spirit of the law

Which law, the law that says once you bought something it's yours to do whatever you like to it? It's this transformation from purchase to "licensing" that's very obviously against the spirit, not only of the law, but also the spirit of capitalism as well.

Re:What happened to making an honest living?

[Evil Adrian]

American ingenuity did not create the Playstation 2 or the Gamecube...

And what happened to making an honest living? Is charging $200 for an American operating system honest?

Re:What happened to making an honest living?

[nattt]

Mod Chip != Piracy.

Piracy is wrong, but so is not letting you make backups.

Remember when it was "so you've lost your dongle - pay full price for a new copy..."

Now its "Your dog scratched the delicate DVD and level 3 no longer loads - tough, buy a new copy" - or "You broke the disc but you made a backup - now you're a criminal"

Re:What happened to making an honest living?

[Maul]

Yes, Nintendo is a fine example of an American company. Red blooded Americans like Shigeru Miyamoto and Hiroshi Yamauchi have created many quality, American games from their headquarters in Tokyo, USA.

Re:What happened to making an honest living?

[wolfgang_spangler]

Hmm, while I do not own a playstation, xbox, or anything newer than my "classic" nintendo. I don't see anything wrong with a company producing a chip that I can put into something I purchased. If I purchased the ps2 or something, I would expect to be able to open it up and plug whatever damn piece of electronics into it that I want.

It could be that I am missing some grand point here since I haven't been following all of this very well. It just seems to me that some company is creating a product that allows me to void my warranty on a piece of hardware that *I* own. If I buy a Toasmaster brand toaster and a company makes a Toastmaster hack that connects my toaster to the internet I expect to be able to mod my own toaster.

Am I missing something?

with great power comes great responsibility

[DragonTHC]

MS, Sony and whomever else(never cared for nintendo) have great power.
This was never about protecting their revenues.
They have chosen to use their power to destroy a small business in hong kong that actually sells usefull products that they didn't think of.

Lik Sang is right about this hurting their customers. Their website was punted like a girl from #bearcave
MS has used their power to disrupt a company from selling legitimate products. I was going to buy a 7" LCD screen from liksang at one point and couldn't. I had to get it elsewhere. Oh Wait, no one else sells such usefull products.

Re:What happened to making an honest living?

[mangu]

If I smash up my car, am I entitled to a free "backup"?

If you made a copy of it beforehand, and had it stored in a safe place, then yes, you are entitled to a free backup.

However, your analogy isn't very good. A better one would be, if car companies behaved like the media and software industry, you wouldn't be allowed to make copies of your car keys. Lose your key and you have to buy a new car, at full price.

You are full of it

[Dan Guisinger]

Have you stepped out of your house? You are completely full of **** not to mention extreamly biased. Go to best buy, funco land, gamestop, ANY PLACE THAT SELLS GAMES.

They have almost as many games and space dedicated to Xbox as PS2. What about Game Cube? About half the space. I am tired of the fact no body cares about facts on Slashdot. Xbox may not be on the top of the charts, or even close in Japan, but its clearly #2 in the United States and analists are predicting XBox will jump even further ahead of the Game Cube this holiday season.

Let me ask you this. Did you know 150,000 people bought XBox Live in the first week? Did you know there are over 200,000 XBox Live users as we speak (With friends/family logging in as guest, plus the 30,000 beta testers).

XBox is definately selling well in the US right now, and its picking up steam. PS/2 is still selling strong. Game Cube.....I don't know all of the facts, but I only know one person who owns one, and the games just aren't in the stores.....atleast the Game Stop and Best Buy near me have very few Game Cube games.

--

monopoly?

[ryochiji]

This probably isn't the case right now, but shouldn't it be considered a monopoly if one corporation (or an alliance of a few corporations) has so much power that they can simply sue competitors out of business?

I mean, shouldn't all corporations (and people) be equal in the court of law, even if they aren't in the real world. What the heck do they call it "justice" for?

Re:monopoly?

[error0x100]

The condition is called an oligopoly (when deliberate and purposeful, a http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=cartel">c artel), and it is just one more fairly commonly used method to avoid having to deal with "free-market forces" (i.e, to unfairly eliminate healthy competition). If two large companies (who would normally be in competition) wield considerable control over a market, then they will often just "agree not to compete". In other words, the CEOs realise that they can BOTH make tonnes of money this way, which makes it, in some cases, a much more logical and easy choice than entering into aggressive/risky competition.

There are some well-known of these, such as the RIAA, as well as Visa/Mastercard. Or here in South Africa, there was until recently the Vodacom/MTN cartel that entirely controlled the cellphone market.

Does the Sherman act say anything about oligopolies? Are there are equivalent laws?

One of the tricky things is usually trying to prove that companies have "agreed not to compete".. when a company obviously has a monopoly, thats pretty clear. But if the CEOs and CFOs etc of two large companies have made deals with one another not to compete, its usually fairly easy to hide any evidence of this.

The public often don't seem to be bothered either, because the illusion of competition is usually enough to fool them, and they may not realise that they're being price-gouged because 'for all they know, thats what product XYZ should cost'. (In fact, some companies actually CREATE additional "brands" in order to deliberately *manufacture* the illusion of competition in the market by having two separate brands next to one another on the shelf in the store, and will even do things like have "price wars" with themselves between the brands, to drive up sales. IIRC, the Liqui Fruit and Ceres boxed fruit juice companies ("company") are an example of this. This is a separate issue though)

Incidentally, just like monopolies, the mere existence of a competitor does NOT magically NULLify the condition, since the mono/oligopolies still have "unnatural" powers to control prices or block market entry points (e.g. the existence of BeOS did not imply that MS did not have a monopoly, since MS could still control the major market entry points (the OEMs). In the same way, the existence of small record labels or credit card companies does not "negate" the cartel (and power that comes with it) that the RIAA or that Visa/Mastercard have. With monopolies, the "monopoly condition" may be defined in terms of the percentage of a market that a company controls. I think over here it is 75%, but I may be remembering wrong.

There are many many "sneaky" ways to establish and retain success in a market that have absolutely nothing to do with quality of product, which is why I find the pure-capitalism (unregulated) approach rather naive. People think its all about "building a better mousetrap". I think anyone who thinks this has probably never actually tried to produce and sell a new product. Rhere are many ways to be successful with only a mediocre, overpriced mousetrap, especially if you can block the market entry points of others who might actually have a better mousetrap. "Buying shelf space" is another commonly established practice, in fact, with many retailers, the only way to get onto their shelves is to buy the shelf space. I remember years ago Microsoft used to do "buy shelf space" of software retailers (essentially pay them off) in exchange for keeping Mac and other competing software off the shelves. Microsoft Press made various "exclusionary deals" with a major local bookseller.

Re:What happened to making an honest living?

[Ektanoor]

And have you thought how evil are Microsofts, Nintendos and other large corporations before stating: "What happened to making an honest living?"

Your patriotism is raw as you didn't think about this...

As if you would take some care about how certain corporations came into these megapredatory enterprises, you would just put your patriotism in first place and ask when someone would be able to make an honest living again.

It is not necessary to leave the US to see what certain large corporations did to Amrican ingenuity and innovation. Where are all those small companies that rised the M$ DOS world into the main trend in computing? Where is the shareware world? Where is the chance to rise a profit from a brilliant idea? What happened to Stack, old Borland, Novell and other major palyers in the market? What happened to the ancient Evil Empire of Big Blue which was a menace but still was full of innovation?

There is one thing. Ten years ago we had lots of major players: Microsoft, IBM, AMD, Intel, Novell, Symantec, Oracle, Borland, Lotus and several others. Today we have two sides: the *NIX world vs Micro$oft domination. Some may say this is natural, that there should be some congragation. However it is well known that this was achieved not by natural events and free market but rather by predatory politics. And US courts showed that this was a fact, no matter the half agreements that, for more than 10 years, US governments had with Redmond.

Before looking at Asian expertises, look at your own country and your own countrymen who cannot no longer make an honest living as before. Because you have no worser experts on stealing, distributing and profiting from hard American's work.

This isn't a software issue, dammit

[forkboy]

The thing that kills me about MS, Sony, and Nintendo flexing their corporate might here is that this isn't software we're talking about. This isn't a licensed product...when you buy a PS2, you OWN it, and whatever you choose to do to it once you own, wether that is playing with it, smashing it to bits, reselling it, or fucking around with the hardware, that's YOUR choice. They have no legal say into the matter, so they should have no sway over Lik-Sang for selling a chip that modifies said hardware.

It really chaps my ass that this should even need to GO to court.

Re:This isn't a software issue, dammit

[forkboy]

It's actually the publishers, not the developers, that are hurt by piracy. So, unless a company is publishing their own game, piracy doesn't make a lick of difference to them, they still get paid.

Such a small percentage of console games even use mod chips that I doubt the percentage revenue loss by pirates has even hit a mark higher than a fraction of a percent.

Piracy may be wrong, but so is going after after someone who makes a product that is used just as often for legitimate reasons. (especially with no legal basis for doing so)

You don't understand how gaming works.

[Inoshiro]

"The only games I see advertized for Xbox are only for Xbox (which suggests poor third-party support),"

Do you know how exclusive titles work? It sure doesn't sound like you have half a clue.

To drive up sales of the Xbox is why the release them! If a game is just for the Xbox, I know that the development team will have had more time to make it work brilliantly on the Xbox.

Also, if the exclusive game is something I really, really want (like Shenmue 2x, Jet Set Radio Future, etc), I am more likely to buy the Xbox to get the access to those exclusive games. I bought an Xbox for JSRF, for example. Platform exclusive games boost sales a lot (the N64 lived and died only for Mario Party, the Zeldas, and Mario 64 for me).

As for multiplatform games, if I have the choice between a game which runs on the PS2, GameCube, and Xbox, I know that the Xbox one will look better than the PS2 or GameCube version, but that it won't have any of the features of the Xbox taken advantage of. It's a bit of a mixed bag that way, but you'd still be foolish to buy the PS2 or GameCube version over the Xbox version (unless you like jaggy-ass graphics, or prefer to limit yourself in terms on online play).

"and they've now resorted to the marketing gimmick of giving away free games with the console."

Maybe you live in a cave, and have no impression of time. But this is the Giftmas shopping season. Sony's not making any deals, but Microsoft has put out its value added package, and Nintendo has cut the price on its GameCube again in order to drive lucrative sales. The largest percentage of console sales happen in the next 4 weeks, and they're looking to load up their consumer base. It's not a gimmick, it's plain sense!

"They just don't have the first- and second-party support to keep their heads above water."

Do you even know what that means? First-party would be Microsoft itself. How is the (potential) failure of the Xbox going to harm them, when they make the licence fee + 3rd-party fee on each Microsof game they sell? Second-party would be someone like Rare, who has a deal which lets them get a little lower licence cost for making Xbox games, because they will only produce Xbox games ever (which is helped since Microsoft owns the majority of the company). Maybe you are thinking of third-party (unaffiliated developer) titles. Third-parties like Sega are sure as hell keeping the Xbox going, with many great sequels to Dreamcast titles that sold millions of copies being kept Xbox exclusive (they get a better licence negotiation this way).

You seem like you have no idea how the console indurstry works. Hopefully this clears things up for you. If you don't like Microsoft, just say it. Don't make up stuff about how the industry works inside your mind, when it's way out of tough with reality.

Not about piracy

[Froobly]

Within the next year and a half, what percentage of computer users and gamers do you expect to own DVD burners? Of these people, how many are willing to spend the money and effort necessary to obtain media for these devices just to play pirated video games? The few people I know of who own DVD burners use them for backing up large amounts of data, not for copying DVDs. The DVD piracy war will hardly even scratch the current generation of game systems. It probably won't even come into being until the X-Box 2, Playstation 3 and the Nintendo SmallerMoreColorfulExpensiveThing are already out.

With the PS2, it may be different, simply because the console actually can play CDs, which can be burned fairly easily, but with the X-Box and Gamecube, it's highly impractical, even with a mod chip, to pirate games. Gamecube mods, which consist of a switch and a couple of wires, are about region coding. The X-Box mods are all about running unlicensed software, like Linux and MPlayer.

The way Lik-Sang is being attacked is not about piracy, but about control. Microsoft doesn't want to lose $250 per console (I've heard it takes ten game sales to recoup the loss from a sold X-Box), and Nintendo doesn't want people to break their market segmentation. Whether you believe these companies should lose money this way is irrelevant; do you really think we ought to be left holding the bag for their flawed business models? I want my X-Theater-Box, and if Microsoft really thinks it's a good idea to sell a $550 console for $250, then they need a reality check.

Actually..

[TyrranzzX]

The real reason all 3 companies are sueing Lik-sang is becuase they want to keep their regional game monopolies regional. They sell more expensive in the US than in europe, or vice versa, or they may sell then in japan for 3x as much as in amercia. It's mostly statistics and how they can extract the optimum amount of money. As we all know the lower the price of an item, the more it well sell and vice versa, the more expensive an item is the less it will sell. Throwing all other factors aside, you'll notice that when you plot a graph of this you get a nice curve. Find the optimum point ont he curve, and estemate for those other factors, do some tricky math, and you find metroid prime should be selling at $49.99 in europe and $59.99 in the USA to make the maximum amount of money, even though they are the same game. So, they regionalize their systems, which is inexpensive, and they increase their profits by fixing the market price of their units. Illegally, mind you. Then, some guy comes along with a soddering iron, figures out how to bypass it. Some company starts selling chips becuase the guy figured he can save $20-40 a game by buying it in europe, or some european can get a game 5 months in advance of it's european release, and you start having problems with those statistics. In short, shops would literally spring up overnight to do this kind of thing if retailers didn't think they'd get the full wraith of hades forced upon them. Another thing. The system is designed to play the game while the disk is in. They don't make nay fancy carrieing cases or fancy protective gear for the game when it's on CD. So, over time, the CD will become damaged to the point where it has to be rebaught. By making sure the person can't play the game in the future, and by making sure that you can force people to buy a new game when the original breaks, you can further increase your profit margins. Then when someone questions them, they pay off the reporter or person, or tell them that they do it to ward off piracy then deny the fact that, statistically, they are completly incorrect. They then release the statistics at the end of the year, round off to some big number, and then publish it for joe-smoe's kid to use in his report. So no, it's not hard work anymore. It's the fact that one guy is good at something, and another guy who isn't as good decided to take legal action so he can compete. Game designers, on the other hand, I have a certain respect for. They do work hard and I bet they enjoy every moment of it.

Homebrew and region locks

[yerricde]

off the record, Nintendo, et al. aren't too concerned about importing of games (and DVDs, etc), compared to piracy.

What about homebrew software development for Nintendo consoles such as the GBA? Here's what I've gathered about Nintendo's behavior in practice:

• Devices designed for region modding, such as NES, SNES, and N64 region adapters and GCN modchips: Blind eye.
• Devices that make piracy easy, such as flash carts with the same memory map as official carts: Lawsuit.
• Devices designed only for homebrew development, such as the MBV2 cable produced by Lik Sang Manufacturing: Blind eye.

We just have the region locks to keep the suits happy

Specifically, 1) to distinguish 50 Hz (Europe/Australia) and 60 Hz (Japan/America) consoles, and 2) to solve the "Peter Pan problem", where different entities own a particular franchise in different markets. (Barrie's Peter Pan is in PD in >=1923 USA and life+50 Japan but not in life+70 EU.) So why did Nintendo put Japan vs. America region locks on the NES, Super NES, N64, and GCN consoles, but not on the GBA system?

Re:Money to Burn

[Bios_Hakr]

If it's a criminal court, you have to answer the summons. Otherwise, you'd be in contempt of court. The judge would issue a bench warrant, and you'd be arrested. Stand-ins wouldn't work.