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Reprieve for Booting New Macs With Mac OS?
MatthewRothenberg writes "Apple has announced that as of January, new Macs will boot with Mac OS X only, but now MacInTouch reports that there might be a reprieve in the works for booting with Mac OS. According to one reader, a Quark representative has been calling pro publishers to ease their worries about the lack of a Mac OS X-native version of its QuarkXPress DTP program; after talking it over with Quark, Apple has agreed to move back the Mac OS X-only deadline until June." I can imagine that conversation with Jobs: "Why don't you just finish porting your freaking product already?"
I bet the program was filled with a bunch of coding tricks that made Classic Work Fine but those tricks no longer work in OS X. Although a lot of the framwork may be simular the reality of coding is sometimes inorder to get it to work the way you want you will need to do some tricks that makes porting harder. It is my guess the code it well hacked up and they are running into a lot of stumbling blocks in order to get it to work.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
In fact, InDesign 1.0 was garbage, but Adobe didn't care. They knew that time was their real advantage, and that as soon as they released a good product, everyone would forget the past. Well for Quark, all they have is the past. The vast majority of people who use Quark do it only because it's what they've always been using.
My guess is that Quark 5.0 will be so freakin' amazing, that people will forget how long it took to come out. In fact, I bet some people will laud Quark for taking its time and releasing a quality product.
And the men who hold high places must be the ones who start
To mold a new reality... closer to the heart
I heard this too. My immediate reaction was that some heroic spin had been applied to the REAL story about the meeting. After the preliminary name-calling and fistfight, Steve and Fred were pulled apart, dusted down and made to sit through a mindnumbing PowerPoint presentation that told Fred:
Every other product you've launched APART from XPress has failed. Most of your user base is on the Macintosh. They're going to Mac OS X and you're holding them back. Meanwhile, Adobe has a product that works on X now...today... and can be used with a little prior knowledge of Photoshop and Illustrator.
Steve's slide was:
There's a significant percentage of major publishers who might just take this opportunity to dump the Macintosh and slide all those legacy Quark files over to Windows. Because, really, is that migration going to be any more fraught than a forced migration to X when you don't even know if your principal software (and attendant Xtensions) is coming along for the ride? XPress on Windows might be an unpalatable choice, but at least it's there. Right?
I've completely forgotten the point I was trying to make.
I have the feeling that this is due to the fact that there will be no evolutionary jump in Mac hardware for the next 6 months, so to continue shipping machines with OS 9 and OS X is no big deal.
Qaurk's market has shrunken noticably enough that not offering OS X ported version is no big deal...
Dinosaurs...
Apple should say tough shit to Quark. They've been holding Apple's release of OS X for far too long. Adobe has had OS X native versions fo their apps, including InDesign 2.0 (IMHO a far better DTP application than Quark), for over a year now. In fact, users of Quark Xpress should say screw Quark too as Quarj has heldp back the adoption of OS X by designers and the publishing industry. I know lots of designer who want to move to OS X but can't because of Quark and I tell them to do themselves a favor by dumping Quark and getting InDesign.
Does it really make a difference to publishing pros if Quark XPress is finally available on Mac OS X or not? I can hardly imagine that everybody is only waiting for Quark so they can switch to X.
What about existing workflows and applications for scanning, printing, ripping etc. that either don't exist on X or cost a fortune to update I can imagine that the inevitable switch from Photoshop 5.x to Photoshop 7 might prevent a couple of companies to do so.
Now, if Apple starts delivering OS X-only Macs, what exactly are OS 9-based companies going to do? They can't buy new fast Macs, as they are not supporting OS 9. It might well be cheaper to switch to Windows... Dangerous game, Apple.
Let me guess. Unemployed, no friends, too much free time. Did I get it right?
I write in my journal
i missed somthing - what exactly is quark, and what does it do? it couldn't be terribly important for the average home user, as that title rarely comes up in my online reading, but it must be at least marginally important, as they seem to have apple's balls in a vice.
moox. for a new generation.
is that what the troll demographic is? man, i'd hate to be in his position. classic theroy has always been that those kinds of posts come from 13 year olds. hunh.
moox. for a new generation.
For many many years Apple bent over backwards to allow legacy software to continue to work, through the transition to 32-bit addressing to PPC and so on. That has started to break down in recent years, and while I can appreciate the benefits of things like abandoning the 68K machines with new OS's (speed, for example), and now, to a lesser extent, booting into OS 9, I'm worried Apple may get a little too used to it, as Microsoft long has been. These moves are a great tool to force people to upgrade ... and Macs users reasonably get pissed over being forced to upgrade -- hardware or OS or apps. The easy path of abandoning compatibility makes more money for Apple, but sacrifices an element of the OS that many of use consider really, really important.
... I've felt that Microsoft has manipulated its profits and bug-fix burden for years by telling users to "get an upgrade" ... Apple may drift in that direction to its long-term detriment ... and yes, before anyone leaps forward, this is an obvious chip in favor of the free software movement. I'm just heavily invested in the older ways; yet (Steve? Are you listening?) I certainly don't rule out moving on. We're not at that crossroads, but I don't like the signals I glimpse ahead (hey, I maintained a metaphor.
I adopted OS X well, but was still have uses for OS 9, as on our iMac. The OS X was a novel transition for me, as a 15-year Mac user, because for the first time I had to upgrade several apps to work under the new OS (Classic Mode is not a panacea!). When Apple starts to disconnect from the legacy machines, the software publishers will also do so, if only because maintaining different versions for different machines is too onerous. But many of us have funky old programs that will never ever be updated because their authors have moved on, or the upgrades offer nothing we want to pay for -- we just want to continue on as we have. That won't be possible for long, esp. if the hardware path abandons our antiquated (read: 3 year-old) ways.
Concretely, I first heard about this from the IT guy at my kids elementary school, which has a substantial flotilla of iMacs. He said it was going to be a pain for them, and with PC forces already snipping at the Macs -- the school admin and high school computers are PC's -- this could portend bad stuff for Mac land. It is a fact of life that the schools buy buy new machines to replace broken ones or expand, and if that necessary path is suddenly encumbered by new transitions and expenses, well, some places will decide it is an opportune time to homogenize the fleet.
Just some musings
What i would really love is a grub/lilo etc style boot loader, so that i can pick on boot rather than having to change it back and forth in my preferences. And bet there is one too, I just haven't opened my eyes wide enough (or my search engine....)
I think the Quark issue is a great excuse for Apple to back off of at least one of their arrogant mistakes announced at the last MacWorld. Jaguar was touted as the be-all-ready-for-prime-time version of OSX. Fact is, it was bug-ridden; with the last 2 releases fixing no less then 150 bugs (that is more than the $1 per feature cost of upgrading that Jobs touted).
.mac and the full-price-only upgrade to Jaguar. Anyone who has a large number of Macs in design and publishing has stayed away from OSX because of the hidden costs of upgrading. And now that Apple has made it clear that it will cost about $700 to get to the next full version of the OS, multi-Mac houses are taking a wait-and-see approach. Remember, counting the software upgrades, a upgrade to OSX for the average design workstation is close to $1,000.
They alienated thousands with the mis-handling of
Apple is only too happy to back off of this "shove X down your throat" move and blame Quark.
Support Native Elders, especially: http://www.norbertrunning.com
Be careful putting your faith in Quark. I'm still amazed at how blatantly people follow Quark, after how terrible they've treated their customers over the years. The Quark following is almost as fun to watch as the Mac followers.... =)
But, keep in mind. Quark is in the process of closing it's main office, in Denver completely. All development and support has been shipped over seas to India. Denver has a major growth of unemployed Quarkies now... things are getting interesting.
I won't post the obvious rumors that are about town, but if you've got a chance, I'd high recommend giving InDesign a look, it may be worth it in the end.....
The company clearly doesn't want to properly support Macs. Whatever spin the marketroids want to put on it, it comes down to Quark not giving a rat's ass about Mac support. I'm pure Mac OS X now (aside from one little legacy program that I don't think is even made any more - but it's not a heavy-duty program so emulation is fine), and it's great. Adobe has committed, M$, for %$@&'s sake, has committed. Quark simply doesn't want Mac business any longer. Leave them.
Do not touch -Willie
Quark doesn't have shareholders to impress for profits. Likewise, no shareholders means less pressure to make a Mac OS X move.
I've already stated my two cents on my blog about Quark's machinations. I do have one item to add: Quark appears to have hedged its bets. It knew full well of Apple's commitment with Mac OS X over 3 years ago. However, like many companies, they've been burned when Apple changed gears on their OS plan and announced several Yet Another Operating System Plans in the latter 1990's.
So Quark went on with its Mac OS 9 version of QuarkXPress (5.0) just in case Apple's OS X plans got chucked. Now that OS X appears entrenched and with direction, Quark is working on the OS X version. The question why they are so slow to port is up to speculation.
However, I don't feel that Quark's new OS X product will compare to InDesign 2, which has had a larger head start in both Mac OS 9 and now a Mac OS X version. It only takes two or three versions of an Adobe product before it has refined into a competitive product.
It's even possible that Quark has lost programming staffing and has had a harder time porting. That's just speculation, but it's yet another idea that makes you go "hmmmm."
Vos teneo officium eram periculosus ut vos recipero is.
http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2002/sep/10macosx. html
hasn't been changed. And until Apple officially changes it, Quark is just blowing smoke.
Everybody seems to forget how expensive the transition to OS X can be. Some of our design customers have many workstations, ranging from old 9600's (8100's even!) to modern G4's. NOBODY is thinking of getting rid of all the old stuff and putting modern OS X running G4's in their places. Heck, some of these machines are still running 8.1 or even 7.6.1! The only thing I see happening is that some new machines run OS X "to test the new system". And even that is quite an investment. ATM doesn't exist anymore so a Suitcase has to be bought. Other programs need to be updated (Photoshop, Illustrator, Office or MacLink, VPC). Sometimes the company's servers have to be upgraded as well (under OS X the FileMaker and Retrospect clients only do TCP/IP, Retrospect 5 doesn't do any AppleTalk anymore forcing an upgrade on other older machines). And the customer has to be taught how to cope with the new OS. Everything is different! Count out the hours, the upgrades, the production time lost. This (OS X) is a huge investment. Some customers are wondering if it's all worth it at all. We've been telling them it's not worth switching to PC's for the same reasons, and now they have to move to OS X which is almost just as much work.
So it's a good thing Apple's trying to force us. But it may be quite a pill to swallow for some. And I think "Classic" Mac OS machines will be around for some time to come.
BTW: Personally I LOVE OS X. I'm never going back.
Apple's Education customers probably had some small part in this, too -- I screamed at Apple pretty loud saying we weren't ready, and they replied that we should buy our next year's machines by January.
Never mind that our next budget year isn't 'til June.
I think this will allow schools to make one more year's worth of purchases that are still OS 9 compatible.
One more year of OS X's maturation (both client AND server) will really really help schools make the transition.
(Not to mention we have to save our pennies and budget for new versions of Office, PhotoShop, etc., since we don't want to buy more RAM to run X just to use all classic apps...)
I'm still having bad dreams about how we're going to train everyone to use OS X, or how a mixed 9 and X environment will work.
(I don't care how flawed it was, people will MISS that darn old Chooser)
- Peter
INsigNIFICANT
There is no carbonized port of Quark XPress, and there never will be. There is no carbonized port of Quark XPress, and there never will be. There is no carbonized port of Quark XPress, and there never will be.
Seriously, though, those Quark guys must have used a crapload of totally custom code that wasn't in the Mac Toolkit, or else there surely would be a OS X version of XPress by now.
Or, maybe they lost all of the source code in a freak accident and are just stalling while they code up their next Adobe killer (yeah right).
Now, I was all like, "Quark is, like, so committing corporate suicide by not releasing an OS X version of Xpress and InDesign, despite its many flaws, will, like, kick their asses and stuff," but not I think that perhaps Quark may be correct in waiting a wee bit. Despite no carbonized competition, InDesign has made almost no headway against Quark on the corporate side where it counts and, should Quark release a X-native version of Xpress in the first half of 2003 which Just Works, they may pull off quite a coup.
My take on InDesign: while it has some nice features, it has no killer feature.
I am a believer of momentum and curves.
I haven't seen anything like this on MacInTouch...is this just some cooked rumor? Not that I care either way :)
Second half of 2003, perhaps, like "2002 2Q" means second quarter? I don't know, just a guess.
My Mac doesn't boot any Mac OS, but runs all apps from MacOS 7.5.2 to 9.2.2, 10.1 and 10.2 in their native enviroment :) you can forget classic mode, yet run OS9 and OS10 at the same time.
http://www.maconlinux.org it's sweet
I'm hoping that they push back the non-booting computers indefinitely. A computer that can't boot 9 is a computer that can't boot from a CD, at least not usefully. The OS X install CD boots straight to an installer when you boot from a CD, and doesn't let you access any kind of file manager. Until someone comes up with a way to boot into a file manager in X from a CD, stopping booting from 9 is a bad idea.
The sooner the educational market switches to OSX the better. I've been using Classic since 7.5, and one thing I didn't like about it is that stuff learned about the Mac OS was non-transferrable. You can learn to hack with ResEdit and write Applescripts and have fun on a Mac, but those skills were useless on any other OS. I always felt like if you want to get your hands dirty, you should run *nix. I knew Windows pretty well in high school, and when I got to college, I didn't even know what Unix was. Now we've got OS X. If you train kids on OS X, they'll be ready for any computing direction. If they go into a computer science field, it'll be an easy transition to a Unix or Linux box (not that they couldn't use a proprietary OS). If they become designers, audio engineers, or digital video specialists, they'll already know the most used OS. If they just want to be Sales Monkeys or gamers, well, they'll have to learn Windows.
It's not an issue of how flawed Classic was. What's important is that OSX is built on rock-solid open technology, the same that is being used on the world's best servers and workstations. I just got OSX a short while ago. Pretty soon, I'll be figuring out how to run a cron job. That knowledge is not Mac-specific. It's general computing knowledge. I like that.
c-hack.com |
You know, Quark has eschewed Mac standards for as long as I can remember. They're UI was (is) totally proprietary, and their key shortcuts are a pain to figure out. Learning Quark was about as easy as learning a whole new OS. I always got the feeling it was totally hacked together. Maybe if they'd spent a little time making their program more standard, they wouldn't have this problem. I have no sympathy.
c-hack.com |
Every new Mac I've bought so far couldn't boot into any OS older than the most current one at the time of purchase (that's partly due to the fact that they put hardware support into those most recent version for the new machines). My old 7600 could only boot into 7.5.3 and upwards. A long time ago I wanted to install KanjiTalk 7.1 just to find out that I can't.
So with OS X Apple have been nice and done you guys a favour, still letting you boot into 9.x, that time is now over and I think Apple is right taking that step. They can't go on pouring resources in supporting new hardware on a dead OS. Everything has to move to OS X sooner or later, and Apple aren't Microsoft, so they don't have 50 idle Programmers hanging around that they could delegate to look after 9.x and supporting it for years to come. For me 9.x can't be dead enough. And QuarkXpress 5 runs fine in Classic AFAIK. Then if you ouput on a Postscript compliant printer or film recorder WTF is the problem with switching to OS X??
There are two rules for success:
1. Never tell everything you know.
...you mean non-standard widgets and tools, then yeah. Those scrollbars on the documents, for example, aren't "real" Macintosh scrollbars, it's goofy proprietary code. When OS 9 (or was it 8?) had a facelift a few years back, XPress suddenly stopped matching the rest of the operating system and had to be patched up because of this.
You're exactly right about the "hacked up" bit. In any other Classic application, porting is relatively easy -- just recompile your code using Carbon and you're on your way. Quark XPress, on the other hand, needs to be rewritten from ground up.
Personally, I think this delay is great for the desktop publishing world, because it's allowed InDesign to get a (minor) foothold in the industry.
// I will show you fear in a handful of jellybeans.
There is still no Mac OS X operating system CD. The Mac OS X installer CD boots straight into the Mac OS X installer, not into the Mac OS X operating system. Without a full operating system boot CD, it is very difficult to do basic recovery when the OS on the hard disk fails. It's still necessary to boot from a Mac OS 9 CD in order to perform some recovery actions.
I had a nasty series of crashes a few months ago that left me with an unsuable operating system. I tried to reinstall the OS, but the disk was too full. In order to fix the problem without reformatting, I had to reboot from my Mac OS 9 CD and move a bunch of files from the OS partition to another volume. I was then able to reinstall the OS and get things working again. If I had been unable to reinstall the OS, I would have at least been able to save my important files before reformatting or discarding the damaged disk. If I had been unable to boot from a full operating system CD, I would have been in the uncomfortable position of having to part with my data.
Until Apple has a bootable Mac OS X operating system CD, they won't likely release any Macs incapable of booting into Mac OS 9.
Apple is aware of this problem, and it seems likely that the delay in releasing Mac OS X-only Macs could be related to putting the finishing touches on a bootable Mac OS X operating system CD.
If Apple is smart, they'll also release a bootable DVD that includes additional applications, developer tools, and a thorough suite of diagnosis tools.
It would also be nice if the boot CD/DVD could automatically write temporary files to a RAM disk in the even that the hard disk is damaged. This could also be triggered by holding down a key combination at boot time. AIX has a maintenence mode like this, and it makes the job of repairing file system and start up problems much easier.
This subject is of considerable interest to my company and Macintouch is a reasonably reliable source--but I can't find the cited item. I've just spent twenty minutes searching for it--I tried searching on "Quark", "reprieve", "boot OS 9," etc. It's not in today's news and it doesn't seem to be in the last few days' news.
"How to Do Nothing," kids activities, back in print!
So with OS X Apple have been nice and done you guys a favour
Some favor! They did out of self-interest, or they would have suddenly had a machine that ran no software. They needed a transitional architecture to serve their needs; now they feel it is safe to move on -- for them.
For for requiring a new OS to boot newer machines, that's not the issue at all; the OS is included. What would be an issue would be that OS in turn forcing you to update all of your software.
Now, the whole question is balancing Apple's needs versus the consumers, not picking one over the other. Most arguments here appear preoccupied with whether switching to OS X is necessary -- that's beside the point. Legacy support is.
Why would anyone who had the option to use Mac OS X not do so? You can do so many things that were once completely off limits to mac users, and do more things at once than before. Perhaps its because I own a MP 533 G4, but my UP 800 G4 eMac is just as fast, and I've observed uptimes in the range of 2 weeks, only ending there becuase I needed to install an update. You have the new developer tools, a whole slew of command-line functions, beautiful projects like fink, and the best GUI I've ever seen... Does it really matter if we have Quark or not? The way I see it, they really don't want us buying their products: The advantages of Mac OS X far outweigh those of Quark Xpress.
Help a college student
We're budgeting for 2003 to finish converting all our Macs to G4 systems...and we ordered a LOT of computers with an eye toward keeping OS 9 on them. Why? Quark Publishing System. The way we're set up, three of our five magazines use QPS, based around Netware 4 servers running IPX. AFAIK there is no plan now or ever for IPX support under OS X...so we've got a long road ahead of us.
Too, every time I talk to our Apple rep about the situation, I get the same answer: "Have you tried InDesign?"
Personally, I'd love to make the jump: QPS is administered here by a separate group from the rest of the IS department, and if QPS goes away, my grip on complete world domination will tighten even more! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Ahem.
"I woo women with my sensuous and godlike trombone playing."
Here's a little experiment you can try at home:
/have/ to initialize anything it doesn't want to--remember that OF can specify what toolbox ROM image gets loaded and which doesn't.
/should/ have done before making an ass out of yourself:
v ic eManagers/pci_srvcs/pci_cards_drivers/PCI_BOOK.35. html
h tm l
Get a Power Mac G4 (Gigabit Ethernet) Software Install CD.
Get a Power Mac G4 (Digital Audio) Software Install CD.
Compare the two Mac OS ROM files in the System Folder of each CD. See how they're different?
With each hardware revision--notice those two logic boards are different--Apple updates Mac OS 9 to boot on the damned thing.
They do it with OS X, too, but it's not nearly as apparent.
So, why do they do that? The 1-MB bootROM of NewWorld machines, of course. It contains Open Firmware instructions that initialize an OS from a boot device. Change the hardware in certain places, change the software to accomodate. (Note that this is not always the rule, but it's the general practice here.)
Simply put, in the end, if Apple doesn't want you booting OS 9, dammit, you won't. (At least, not without some supa-leet hacksorin'.) The bootROM doesn't
Yes, there is more OF code in the toolbox ROM image, and there's the bootinfo file in the master directory block, but what you're talking about is not something a low-level format will circumvent/solve/whatever.
Anyway, rather than exhaust myself explaining why you can't just low-level format a frickin' HD like you say--when have you ever needed to re-update the firmware on a Power Mac after a HD replacement?--I'll point you to some good reading you
http://developer.apple.com/techpubs/hardware/De
http://developer.apple.com/technotes/tn/tn1167.
If I'm wrong, I would love to know where and why. If Apple can be circumvented, who cares what Quark says? (Then again, who cares, anyway? Quark can eat a fat one.)
-/-
Mikey-San
Mikey-San
Karma: +Eleventy billion (mostly affected by watching Celebrity Jeopardy)
That doesn't help him at all, though, because he needed to get data off the drive before formatting.
/then/ format the drive.
Of course Disk Utility can format the drive. That isn't the issue. The issue is that his drive was too full to perform a reinstallation because something went wrong somewhere--he needed to rescue data and
Wow, you don't read anything, do you?
-/-
Mikey-San
Mikey-San
Karma: +Eleventy billion (mostly affected by watching Celebrity Jeopardy)
There's a sharware or freeware app called BootCD which applows you to make a bootable X CD with the apps of your choice on it. Check versiontracker.com.
Amen.
That's the most concise way of expression why I'm so happy with Apple.
- learn to swim.
Most companies know that as soon as a major product release date is announced, sales go flat in anticipation. Do you really think Apple keeps their new products secret just for the sake of the surprise factor?
I think Apple is even making an effort not to make a habit of unveiling new products at Macworld for this reason. When people ask for advice on buying a Mac, the answer has always been "wait for Macworld, they'll introduce something new and prices on the old stuff will drop..."
Anyway, Deb is doing a great job connecting with customers. What I can say with confidence is to just hold on; QuarkXPress for OS X will be here soon, and it should be great.