Vanishing Features Of The 2.6 Kernel

chromatic writes "Jerry Cooperstein has written an excellent article summarizing the features removed from the upcoming 2.6 kernel. One controversial change may be tightening restrictions on binary-only modules." And Lovechild writes with some more 2.6 news: "I recently did an inteview with famous kernel hacker extraordinare and all round nice guy Robert M. Love for Tinyminds.org, about kernel 2.6 and what can be expected for desktop Linux users, when the new kernel series is released.

Comments

They aren't gone!

[jlharris_50010]

Nothing's vanished... just not included... now you too can learn to kernel hack!

Binary modules

[IamTheRealMike]

Could somebody sum up the pros/cons of binary modules. I've been trying to understand this issue for some time, but it's nearly impossible to get technical reasons without ideological bias. So far I have:

Pros:

• Commercial interests are happy because they keep trade secrets they may need to stay in business
• Better drivers (usually)
• Patented tech can be used in Linux, like that nVidia texture compression thing (i don't think all patents are stupid).

Cons:

• Makes kernel harder to debug
• Sticky GPL enforcenment issues
• Some kernel developers don't like it
• Often come with stupid licensing, ie nVidia - you can't distribute our drivers, only download them (and then no psyche rpms).

Have the kernel devs decided whether they are good or not?

Re:Binary modules

[Otter]

Cons:

As a PowerPC Linux user, I'd add that they're rarely made available for non-x86 architectures.

Re:Binary modules

[crow]

You left off one major con:

Binary-only modules must be updated by the vendor when the kernel interface changes.

If we must have binary-only modules, I like how Cisco did it for their VPN software: you compile a small wrapper function with a provided library file to generate the module. That way you can generate one specific to your kernel version.

Re:Binary modules

[IamTheRealMike]

Why does the kernel module interface change so often though? I mean, surely there are only so many ways to write a mouse driver

Re:Binary modules

[kasperd]

Why does the kernel module interface change so often though? I mean, surely there are only so many ways to write a mouse driver

The mouse driver is one of the simplest drivers, and most of the stuff is done in usermode anyway. But a changing interface doesn't mean that each and every piece of the interface changes, it just means that the overall interface has changed in some way.

It doesn't take much to make a change in the binary interface, a small change of a .h file will do. In fact even changing just a kernel configuration option could change the binary interface. The API on source level is however more stable. It doesn't change that often, and it doesn't change in unpredictable ways by modifying something completely unrelated to what you are writing. This API has been kept almost unchanged all the way through the 2.4 series.

Re:Binary modules

[vinsci]

It's exactly the same as if Microsoft changed the Windows license to say you could not run any GPL programs under the Windows operating system. Imagine the screaming that would take place if they tried that.

Microsoft are busy working on just this and it's much worse than you would imagine. See the TCPA/Palladium FAQ.

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Re:Binary modules

[vinsci]

No, they aren't. Palladium will NEVER stop you from running unsigned code. Never. Ever.

So what if Palladium lets your GPL program run, it wouldn't matter at all. This is because your GPL program will not be able, or rather allowed to, access the Palladium infrastructure in order to get the needed cryptographic credentials to perform certain tasks. So yes, your program will run, but no, it won't be able to do anything useful for you, not for anything that requires access to Palladium. And that would be mission completed for Microsoft: GPL software rendered useless.

The easily fooled will probably be glad to hear that the full source code to Palladium will likely be made available. Again, the source code is as powerless as your GPL program, and is of no use to you - even with the source, you can not make modifications to it and run the modified version in place of the version endorsed by Microsoft.

Furthermore, Microsoft already has a license in place that exludes open source development and specifically GPL and LGPL open source, see this article by Bruce Perens

Yes, there are people who are LYING about Palladium. Yes, LYING.

If you are aware of any lie in Ross Anderson's TCPA/Palladium FAQ, please state what it is.

Re:Binary modules

[__aaahtg7394]

If you have 10k desktops and your IT guy/gal/team
1. doesn't have an automated system to push updates, or
2. decides you need to upgrade to a new kernel for no apparent reason (security updates are almost universally backported), or is unable to do the kernel patching to fix things themselves, or
3. you have software that's somehow hacked into the kernel on desktops but you don't have the source to,

you're fucked. Start writing your resignation letter, you totally blew it for anyone you're responsible to. Hope you weren't there too long so you can put it on your resume as a hiatus.

Linux doesn't have to worry about backwards ABI compatibility because most vendors use the API instead...

Arrogance

[rossz]

This may very well break some rather expensive commercial Linux products, but that doesn't seem to bother most kernel developers. Reminding the purveyors of binary modules that they continue to operate at the pleasure of the Linux kernel developers and their open-source licenses is seen to be a necessary (even enjoyable) task.

What an arrogant attitude. The kernel developers need to be reminded that widespread acceptance of Linux might very well require the support of big commercial enterprises, not just hobbiests and open source enthusiasts. Few companies are going to make major investments in Linux if they have to deal with prima donna programmers who love fucking with them.

Re:Arrogance

[silvaran]

How about you go branch your own Linux kernel tree and add code back in that better supports binary-only modules? It's their tree, they can do what they want. If Red Hat doesn't like it, they can maintain their own tree (which they do). If nVidia doesn't like it, they can do likewise.

After all the hard work of the kernel folks, you seem to expect them to be perfectly happy with having to support binary modules that they can't debug, and that fall in a grey area of the GPL.

How about you go create your own open-source project. Then I'll go create some hardware, and keep all the information proprietary. To tease you a bit, I'll keep all information about my hardware proprietary, so you have two choices:

1) Reverse engineer my hardware and write your own software.
2) Indicate to me that your software is valuable, and depends on my hardware, until you convince me to release sources so they'll work better with your software.

That's the position nVidia's in. They've got one of the most widely-used video cards on the market. And the only way to use that video card effectively under Linux is to use their binary-only drivers. Get a clue. Linux doesn't belong to commercial entities any more than it belongs to Linus. What you do with your kernel tree is your own business.

Re:Arrogance

[Subcarrier]

What an arrogant attitude.

Arrogance indeed. Users are so used to being customers that they don't know when they are receiving a gift.

It's weird how, after over ten years, many people still don't get Linux. Every single Linux developer does what he does does because he gets something out of it. Not because he want's you to get something out of it. That's the beauty of the GPL. It guarantees that everyone can do what they want with the code, as long as they give others the same courtesy.

If you want something, just do it. If you can't, find a way to motivate someone to do it for you. You have the same rights as everyone else, no more, no less.

Just great...

[xchino]

I am an op in a Linux support channel on IRC, and I always dread new rleases of both kernels and redhat. It never fails.. some noobie comes in *demanding* we help him fix the production mail server he just trashed by installing RH8 or the newest kernel (dev or otherwise).

For anyone out there who is just waiting and drooling on themselves over 2.6, unless you NEED one of the few features present in a new kernel, you have no need to upgrade. The latest isn't always the greatest, and even "stable" releases need to go through testing before you put them in production.

It's open source, damnit!

[europrobe]

If non-GPL companies feel they can require users to install binary-only modules, why not simply requiring them to apply a kernel patch to remove this new limitation first?

Or, better still, why not delivering the whole product with an installer doing all this for them? It's not going to break GPL, as long as they publish the source code for the patch itself, which should be trivial.

I'm all for GPL, but this is not going to make that big an impact.

Are they nuts?

[I Am The Owl]

This may very well break some rather expensive commercial Linux products, but that doesn't seem to bother most kernel developers. Reminding the purveyors of binary modules that they continue to operate at the pleasure of the Linux kernel developers and their open-source licenses is seen to be a necessary (even enjoyable) task.

See also: quickest way to discourage commercial development on your platform.

Gee, do you think all these corporations who have been embracing Linux in these past few years will still be using it when they can no longer use their expensive software investments with it? I doubt there are reasonable open source alternatives for most of these applications, like video card drivers or movie production applications, for example. Good luck on getting more people to adopt your platform after that.

I forsee a massive move to FreeBSD if this bullshit continues.

Re:the mighty slashdot effect killed TinyMinds

[dubious9]

Jesus, give me some whitespace! At least a
here and there.

See how nice this looks?

Even if you make good points, nobody is going to read a long post with no whitespace.

Drivers please

[visualight]

When a new product comes out on the market, the box almost always includes a cd with a windows driver on it. That driver is written and supported by the manufacturer of the product.

I love linux but I want so bad to be able to buy the latest neates thing and have it just work right away in linux and not a year later. Right now I have a radeon 9000 pro and a wintv pvr 250 I'm struggling with.

Drivers are the ONLY issue I have with linux and because of that I'm trying to learn C but I have so far to go and in the meantime I have to just be patient and wait for the vendor to produce a driver or for some linux developer go buy the same card I have and make it work. That's all fine and dandy except for this one thing: Some of these kernel developers are PAID to develop the linux kernel. That's right, it's their JOB. Not to show any disrespect to those kind hearted souls who sacrifice their spare time to do a community service, but as an enduser who has paid far far more for linux distro's than I ever would have paid if I was using Windows I have a right to insist on support for ME the end user. I have purchased Redhat 7.1, Mandrake 8.2,9.0 and every Suse since 6.2. It's my opinion that the kernel developer employed by the distro's have an obligation to develop the linux kernel with me in mind. And I want drivers. I don't care if they're GPL or not. I want hardware vendors to write the driver for the hardware they sell and distribute that driver WITH the hardware. And I want that driver to just work. That means the linux kernel must allow it to work. Politics and personal philosophy regarding open source have nothing to do with the discussion. I'm a paying customer and I should be treated that way.

Re:Beggers can't be choosers

[pclminion]

You can use the old kernel, you can use the new kernel, you can use your own kernel. Everyone can make whatever they want.

Untrue. Most people are incapable of hacking kernel code, or any kind of code.

The kernel developers can use their abilities and positions to essentially blackmail the user base. New hardware drivers aren't usually backported to older kernels, so in order to get modern support for most things you have to run the latest. Want to run on modern hardware? You have to upgrade to a new kernel, with a new license, new restrictions, etc.

They don't owe you anything.

This is hilarious. You know, I once posted a rant on LKML about some particular issue (details unimportant). I essentially said that if it wasn't addressed, I might consider moving to BeOS (which was looking very good to me at the time). I have the freedom to make that choice, right? They don't OWE me anything, right? So clearly I most not owe THEM anything.

But I got several responses accusing me of BLACKMAIL, saying that I was "threatening" to move to BeOS in order to force someone to do something.

I could understand if there was some disagreement on a technical point, but by that point the conversation had degenerated into a flamethrowing competition between Andre Hendrick and the rest of the list. I was the only guy backing up Hendrick.

Anyway, I know from experience that many kernel developers are elitist, arrogant people. I guess they think that because their code runs in Ring 0 they must be somehow superior to the rest of us.