Motorola's Metrowerks Acquires Lineo

Linux... by Anonymous Coward · 2002-12-17 18:28 · Score: 0

Linux powered cell phones?

Re:Linux... by Anonymous Coward · 2002-12-17 18:31 · Score: 1, Funny

no, linux powered waklie-talkies. I need a stable walkie talkie with support for apache, don't you?
Re:Linux... by Anonymous Coward · 2002-12-17 19:16 · Score: 0

What about linux powered vibrators? You could use the web server to allow it to be activated by anyone, anywhere in the world-and you'll be glad when someone tries to DOS attack you!

Lineo merges with Metrowerks by ekrout · 2002-12-17 18:31 · Score: 2, Funny

LinWerks seems like an appropriate new name -- Linux just works, plain & simple!

Hey, if you get the chance to combine your corporate slogan and your company name, I say go for it!

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If you celebrate Xmas, befriend me (538

Re:Lineo merges with Metrowerks by God!+Awful+2 · 2002-12-17 19:13 · Score: 0, Troll

Hey, if you get the chance to combine your corporate slogan and your company name, I say go for it!

Motorola bailing them out is just throwing good money after bad. I've seen it a million times before; if these products don't turn a profit next year they'll be history.

As usual, the best name for the merged company would be "MOney down the TOilet-o-ROLA".

-a

--
/. users can't

No interested by Anonymous Coward · 2002-12-17 18:33 · Score: 1, Funny

I don't care about Lieno; I'm a Letterman fan myself.

If they're into useless purchases by Anonymous Coward · 2002-12-17 18:33 · Score: 1, Funny

They should've bought Amiga, just to kill the zombie.....

Re:If they're into useless purchases by Anonymous Coward · 2002-12-18 10:52 · Score: 0

Sorry, that would only extend the pain -- note they've been bought 3+ times since Commodore. Their current state of limbo is most productive.

In Soviet Russia... by Anonymous Coward · 2002-12-17 18:34 · Score: 3, Funny

key assets acquire you!

Sounds suspicious ... by obsidianpreacher · 2002-12-17 18:37 · Score: 3, Interesting

"Customers want a full solution, up to the application level, from a single source," [Metrowerks vice president of strategic marketing John] Smolucha added.

Does this sound a little like the Microsoft/Disney/AOLTW/whoever monopolistic practices to anyone else, or am I just being overly cynical and reading too much into it? How does this fit into the whole free (as in speech) aspect of the Linux developmental ideology?

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topreacher@signature.slashdot.org 1% rm -rf sig

Re:Sounds suspicious ... by ericmc42 · 2002-12-17 18:45 · Score: 0

This fits into the linux/free speech/OSS/FSF ideology pretty well.

Linux needs publicity and control right now. I am a hard core linux user/advocate, but I do admit there are a few things left to be desired. One of the biggest problems with OSS/linux/FSF etc is that people don't follow through with what they set out to do. There are uncountable unfinished/barely stated source forge projects, and there are hundereds odf *almost* complete applications. One thing that corporations tend to do is follow through. Look at Internet Explorer or MS Office. MS is paying poeple day in and day out to sit and upgrade/tweak those apps. The more companies that start putting money into linux the better. Anyways... Lineo rocks. I've been so lucky as to become involved with a group that's using both the uCSimm and uCDimm on various projects. Cool Shit.
Re:Sounds suspicious ... by mdechene · 2002-12-17 19:13 · Score: 5, Informative

"Customers want a full solution, up to the application level, from a single source," [Metrowerks vice president of strategic marketing John] Smolucha added. Does this sound a little like the Microsoft/Disney/AOLTW/whoever monopolistic practices to anyone else, or am I just being overly cynical and reading too much into it? How does this fit into the whole free (as in speech) aspect of the Linux developmental ideology?

When he says "Customers", he means "Embedded Systems Developers". And yes, we do want a full solution, up to the application level, from a single source. You want to buy a single dev kit, not a chip programmer from one company, a programming environment from a second, and an O/S from a third. This way you don't have to pull out your hair trying to integrate the environments before you even begin development. And no, it's not a monopolistic statement, as it doesn't preclude other companies having solutions for their own chips. Basically, MetroWerks wants to provide an entire development solution for Motorola chips, kinda like TI wants to provide the same for their chips.

--

Karma: Not Particularly Funny.
Re:Sounds suspicious ... by g4dget · 2002-12-17 19:33 · Score: 2

Does this sound a little like the Microsoft/Disney/AOLTW/whoever monopolistic practices to anyone else
No. With MS/Disney/AOLTW, you must pay them money to continue using the software, even if it turns out that none of their promises of support or ease-of-use work out. With Linux-based systems, including Lineo, if you don't want to deal with that vendor anymore for support, you go somewhere else (well, except for the GUI toolkit, which has restrictions for commercial use).
Re:Sounds suspicious ... by Anonymous Coward · 2002-12-17 20:43 · Score: 0

"How does this fit into the whole free (as in speech) aspect of the Linux developmental ideology?"

I believe you're confusing the first amendment with the GPL. The two are completely unrelated

Metrowerks can't sell GPLed code.
They would be violating a license agreement.
What they can do is acquire a program, from another company, and sell it just like Embedix did.

Perhaps if you weren't so wrapped up in your political agenda you'd realize this is a good thing.
Re:Sounds suspicious ... by Anonymous Coward · 2002-12-17 23:09 · Score: 0

Metrowerks can't sell GPLed code.
They would be violating a license agreement.
A small pedantic point. As a matter of law Metrowerks can sell GLDed code. As can anyone. They can't relicense that code.
As a matter of practicality, there is no market for GPLed code so in that sense, your first statement is correct.
Re:Sounds suspicious ... by jasno · 2002-12-18 06:19 · Score: 2

Yeah, that's exactly what they TRY to do.

I TRIED to use their 68HC12 dev kit for my last project(at my now former employer) and spent 40%(rough guess, but it was close) of my time fighting tool problems. And after the 90 day support was up they stopped talking to me, even with regards to bugs in their c++ compiler.

Had I gone with the GNU toolchain(boss was a HW guy who insisted on paying for tools), I would have been up to speed in 3 days, the c++ support would have been near complete, and I MIGHT just still be employed(can't blame it ALL on them). Sure its nice when companies think they can provide total solutions, but in most implementations I've seen they give you a false sense of security and end up costing you.

--

http://www.masturbateforpeace.com/

Here's another viewpoint / more information by ekrout · 2002-12-17 18:37 · Score: 5, Informative

I read this news earlier on C|Net. They had it embedded (sorry for the bad pun) in an article entitled "Mixed fortunes for embedded Linux".

Please note that this was deemed bad by some for embedded Linux because of the fact that Lineo had to be acquired and no longer was self-sufficient due to lack of profits from software sales.

Lineo's "Embeddix" software for portable devices powers those Zaurus handhelds that some of you are familiar with.

The good news mentioned in that article was that Toshiba just invested a hefty chunk of change into MontaVista software, another player in the embedded market.

--

If you celebrate Xmas, befriend me (538

Re:Here's another viewpoint / more information by Bruce+Perens · 2002-12-17 18:57 · Score: 5, Informative

Well, Lineo did a lot of work on the Zaurus, especially drivers, but the software mostly comes from the community, with the runner up being Troll Tech. Saying that embeddix "powers" the Zaurus is market-speak.
Bruce

--
Bruce Perens.
Re:Here's another viewpoint / more information by ekrout · 2002-12-17 19:03 · Score: 3, Insightful

Bruce,

With all due respect, your comment seems like a simple rehashing of the old GNU/Linux vs. Linux war.

Whenever Open Source / Free Software is involved in a project, we as a community know that underneath lie many great tools made by the GNU folks and many other programmers across the world. But since that's understood, we don't worry about it.

But you're right about the use of "powers"; I admit that many lay-folks would find it misleading were they to know the real truth.

--

If you celebrate Xmas, befriend me (538
Re:Here's another viewpoint / more information by pyman · 2002-12-17 19:18 · Score: 5, Insightful

Linux holds a very small portion of the handheld market.
This is because hardware is the driving cost of PDAs. MS and Palm both license there Handheld OSs for between $8-$10, so the cost of the operating system has little effect on the cost of the unit.
Palm have not invested enough in the latest version of their OS, so it is only a matter of time before WinCE surpasses Palm in Market share, as it already surpasses them in OS features.
Because of this, I think it is going to be very hard for Linux to beat Palm and MS in the handheld market. We have to come up with a much better product, with more features, as beating the competion on price does not count for much...

--
a ^= b; b ^= a; a ^= b;
Re:Here's another viewpoint / more information by Anonymous Coward · 2002-12-18 06:12 · Score: 0

Palm bought Then(Be) for the express purpose of beefing up their OS. This has been posted on slashdot numerous times. It's The End Of The Be As We Know It
Palm To Purchase Be's IP
Be Buyout Looms Closer
Re:Here's another viewpoint / more information by Anonymous Coward · 2002-12-18 12:36 · Score: 0

Unfortunately, the Be IP seems to be sitting on a shelf...
Re:Here's another viewpoint / more information by MikeBabcock · 2002-12-19 03:02 · Score: 2

The EPOC OS is much nicer than Win CE, IMHO.

Look it up from psion at www.psioninc.com

--
- Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
Re:Here's another viewpoint / more information by Anonymous Coward · 2002-12-19 06:18 · Score: 0

If I remember correct, Palm acquired BeOs sometime back... I dont think they'd be sitting still with that. They'll be squeazing it into a Palm one of these days.

might be good by binary+tr011 · 2002-12-17 18:38 · Score: 3, Interesting

This might be good as it would allow a great technology(embedded linux) to gain more market share.
Also it will allow for a great chip manufature motorola and os to come together.
redundant

Re:might be good by ericmc42 · 2002-12-17 18:47 · Score: 0

Agreed
Re:might be good by HiThere · 2002-12-18 09:24 · Score: 2

Last I checked (this morning) CodeWarrior was still requiring Red Hat Linux 6.0. I'm not sure that I would call this agressively pushing development. If they do the same thing with embedded systems, will they really be successful? Outside of a captive internal market?

--

I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.

Does that mean no more codewarrior? by laptop006 · 2002-12-17 18:40 · Score: 0, Flamebait

Oh PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE!!!

Codewarrior is an overpriced copy of the GNU toolchain with an ide...

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/* FUCK - The F-word is here so that you can grep for it */

Re:Does that mean no more codewarrior? by God!+Awful+2 · 2002-12-17 19:35 · Score: 4, Insightful

Oh PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE!!!
Codewarrior is an overpriced copy of the GNU toolchain with an ide...

Well sure it is... but isn't that the business model that /. has been asking us to follow for the last couple of years? After all, isn't RedHat just an overpriced copy of GNU/Linux/Gnome with package management?

-a

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/. users can't
Re:Does that mean no more codewarrior? by Frag-A-Muffin · 2002-12-17 20:38 · Score: 2

... After all, isn't RedHat just an overpriced copy of GNU/Linux/Gnome with package management? ...

How much cheaper can you get than free? Jeez. I know /.'ers are cheap and all (myself included), but common'! :)

--

AirSpeak - http://itunes.com/apps/AirSpeak
Re:Does that mean no more codewarrior? by d^2b · 2002-12-17 20:44 · Score: 2

isn't RedHat just an overpriced copy of GNU/Linux/Gnome with package management?

No that's debian :->

Redhat is the one with the uhh, cool installer.

ducks...
Re:Does that mean no more codewarrior? by lpontiac · 2002-12-17 23:10 · Score: 2

Oh PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE!!! Codewarrior is an overpriced copy of the GNU toolchain with an ide...

Codewarrior has it's own 68000-and-alike targeted compiler that has nothing to do with GNU stuff. IIRC, Metrowerks started out with Apples (back when Macs were 68k), and that 68k stuff is behind Codewarrior for Palm, and their embedded stuff.

I agree with you that Codewarrior sucks, and everyone's better off with it dead.
Re:Does that mean no more codewarrior? by Anonymous Coward · 2002-12-18 03:03 · Score: 1, Interesting

::flails away with large clue-stick::

Codewarrior has NOTHING to do with GNU.

- It was made pretty much from scratch by Metrowerks until Motorola bought them. (IOW, it has always been "proprietary".)

- It has always had a EULA. (It's not GPL'ed.)

It was originally just another Pascal compiler for Macintosh. Yes, the crappy old 68k Macs with the hack-job System n(where n is a fixed-point, one-place-after-the-decimal number less than 8). It was made into a frontend/backend IDE/plugin loader compiler with support for languages other than Pascal, most notably C++.

It became the de facto standard for Mac programming because Apple hadn't updated their MPW tools in years and Metrowerks updated for the PPC. (Yeah, that kind of "de facto" - the ubiquitous, Microsoft kind. Name a C++ compiler in widespread use for Windows development... now name one other than Visual C++. See?)

Codewarrior was the only decent way to make console apps for the Macintosh until MacOS X came out. CW has a thing called "SIOUX" - Simple Input/Output User eXchange" - a.k.a. a text console window. It worked pretty well, but things like system() were defined as:
void system(void *blah) { return 0; }
You can see where that plan goes tits up... I believe they've updated their libraries to use OSX now, and give an error in HackOS 9.

The only thing you got right about Codewarrior is that it is overpriced. WAY overpriced. It retails for $400, and there's no upgrade path. It's $400 for CW Pro 5. 6 months later, CW Pro 6 comes out... another $400 if you want it. Lather, rinse, repeat.

All that having been said, it has a nice IDE... :)
Re:Does that mean no more codewarrior? by Jeremy+Erwin · 2002-12-18 06:13 · Score: 2

A very nice IDE, and a very nioe compiler. Their C++ compiler was complied with most of the C++ standard (much more so than did Visual C++).

Their "Codewarrior for Linux" was IMHO, halfbaked-- Codewarrior implemented in Motif- but packaged with gcc. Their debugger-- gone, replaced with DDD. The nice syntax highlighting-- gone as well. The optimizing compiler-- replaced with gcc (although the price was cut as well).

It didn't work well well with autotools, and so much of the ease of use associated with theIDE was offset by the difficulty of converting to Codewarriors project based format.

As for SIOUX, similar libraries were available for "Think C" and it's successor, Symantec C++

holy crap I cant believe it... by Anonymous Coward · 2002-12-17 18:40 · Score: 4, Interesting

I used to work for a company that is now out of business that used to compete against both of these companies.

Lineo was the only company to come close to what we were doing in terms of execution speed and compatibility. It just boggles the mind that they sold out.

Though the company I was working for is now out of business, thanks to a very stupid CEO..

Re:holy crap I cant believe it... by binaryDigit · 2002-12-17 19:23 · Score: 3, Insightful

It just boggles the mind that they sold out

How is running out of money "selling out", except in the strictist sense of the word? They did/do have some cool stuff (we use some of their hardware development kits here at work), but if they are not selling enough to stay afloat, then you do what you have to do to keep some semblence of the company going. What would you have them do, just go belly up?
Re:holy crap I cant believe it... by haggar · 2002-12-17 20:35 · Score: 2

Well, yes, you are of course correct, but I too, feel a bit dismayed about this aquisition. I liked the stuff Lineo was doing, and I thought they were on the right path to helping the embedded Linux market to real (non-hyped) success, based on real strenghts of linux.

I think Lineo was one of the more interesting assets of the Canopy group. But perhaps not the most profitable?

--
Sigged!
Re:holy crap I cant believe it... by g4dget · 2002-12-17 22:27 · Score: 2

It just boggles the mind that they sold out.
That's the way even many successful startups work: they grow, then they get bought out, and the initial investors make a decent amount of money. Few startups make it on their own in the long run.
Re:holy crap I cant believe it... by sql*kitten · 2002-12-18 08:07 · Score: 2

It just boggles the mind that they sold out.

If you're going to sell out, you could do a lot worse than selling out to Metrowerks. They are a very cool company. I used their flagship product CodeWarrior, a C/C++/Pascal editor/compiler/debugger/class library (later incorporating Java) almost exclusively for development for a few years, and it's superb. Also they were selling Geekware long before any of the Slashbots had even heard of ThinkGeek!

The Full LinWorks Solution: by Anonymous Coward · 2002-12-17 18:40 · Score: 0

Powered by G-Money Aquisition Technologies...

I wonder by grgcombs · 2002-12-17 18:59 · Score: 2, Insightful

I wonder if being owned by Motorola will help their chances of success in this?

It's no secret that I was no fan of Metrowerks in the Bad Old Days before Motorola (and they were no fan of me). I still have some serious reservations about using their tools, CodeWarrior Pro 8 is one of the flakiest releases I've ever seen, more so than Codewarrior 3 which was about nine years ago. I remember some sketchy acquisitions back then that really turned into a garbage disposal for money, but who knows, this might work out for them if they work it right.

Greg

Zaurus by Bruce+Perens · 2002-12-17 19:01 · Score: 5, Informative

By the way, OpenZaurus 3.0, the "free" load for the Zaurus, is really cool! I am running it on my Zaurus, with 1/2 Gig SD card and either 802.11b or Bluetooth in the CF slot. When I ssh to it there's little to tell me it's not a powerful server system. And the applications that run on the LCD are pretty good, too. I hear there's a reverse-engineered driver for the SD coming from the iPaq. That's the last component that wasn't Open Source. I will demo all of this on the geek cruise this year, and will also do a talk on international wireless connectivity with GPRS.

Bruce

--
Bruce Perens.

Re:Zaurus by g4dget · 2002-12-17 19:27 · Score: 2

When I ssh to it there's little to tell me it's not a powerful server system.
The fact that most of the applications only run on the main display or via VNC might give you a hint; UNIX and Linux servers use X11, and for good reason.
Fortunately, some people are working on making Opie play nice under X11. Let's hope that Motorola's Lineo will see the light and make this the standard way of delivering Qtopia for Embedix as well.
Re:Zaurus by Bruce+Perens · 2002-12-18 04:06 · Score: 2

Well, I said server, not desktop :-)
I haven't bothered to load the X packages yet, but OpenZaurus includes an X server. It would be nice if the switch from native Opie to X Opie could be achieved by changing a shared library, rather than by rebuilding applications.
Bruce

--
Bruce Perens.
Re:Zaurus by haggar · 2002-12-18 09:30 · Score: 2

Hey Bruce, what doyou have against Slackware? ;o>

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Sigged!
Re:Zaurus by g4dget · 2002-12-19 00:35 · Score: 2

I have yet to see any evidence that basing applications on Qt/Embedded is any more efficient/smaller than basing them on X11. If anything, and environment built around toolkits like FLTK/X11 seems much smaller and more efficient than an environment built around Qt/Embedded, even taking into account the footprint of the X11 server. Also, just in terms of architecture, I see no savings or performance gains from the Qt/Embedded architecture. If Qt/X11 has a lot more overhead than Qt/Embedded, then that's a problem with Qt, not with X11.
The short of it is that I think Opie-based handhelds should switch to Qt/X11 entirely and just get rid of Qt/Embedded. If that turns out to require more memory or be slower, then the problem is with the X11-based Qt implementation, not the use of X11, and the way to fix that is to fix the Qt/X11 implementation.
Re:Zaurus by MikeBabcock · 2002-12-19 03:04 · Score: 2

I noticed that too ... all that's missing is the now-proverbial tagline; "Remove SLACKWARE ... "

--
- Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)

Re:Soviet sad man is saying: by spike+hay · 2002-12-17 19:08 · Score: 0, Offtopic

IN SOVIET RUSSIA

The sad man says you!

--
If you don't understand any of my sayings, come to me in private and I shall take you in my German mouth.

Linux Watch by Anonymous Coward · 2002-12-17 19:13 · Score: 3, Informative

from the can't-you-build-some-linux-watches-already dept.

Already been done:

IBM clocks in with new Linux watch Developers Warm Up to Linux Watch IBM's Linux Wristwatch IBM Research - Linux Watch

Re:Soviet sad man is saying: by Anonymous Coward · 2002-12-17 19:17 · Score: 0

How is that offtopic? He is sad about _the topic_.

False advertising. by Binary+Tree · 2002-12-17 19:18 · Score: 0, Troll

Linux just doesn't, plain & simple.

Re:False advertising. by Anonymous Coward · 2002-12-17 19:49 · Score: 0

:(

Someone needs to go back to Windows, where they don't throw around big words like "hard drive" and "IDE".
Re:False advertising. by Anonymous Coward · 2002-12-17 20:58 · Score: 0

Re:False advertising. (Score:0)
by Anonymous Coward on 11:49 PM -- Tuesday December 17 2002 (#4914236) :(

Someone needs to go back to Windows, where they don't throw around big words like "hard drive" and "IDE".
[ Reply to This ] Re:False advertising. (Score:0)
by Anonymous Coward on 11:49 PM -- Tuesday December 17 2002 (#4914236) :(

Someone needs to go back to Windows, where they don't throw around big words like "hard drive" and "IDE".
[ Reply to This ]

Does that mean... by Rellik66 · 2002-12-17 19:24 · Score: 1

That we will soon be slashdotting Linux enabled phones in the near future?

--

Too many zeros, not enough ones

Half right by jeramybsmith · 2002-12-17 19:29 · Score: 2

One of the earliest and most popular? I give you the first part. If they were really that popular though I doubt they would be bought by Metro. The reason they are so buyable is in fact because they were a dismal failure. Popular in the Linux press maybe.

--
Never overestimate the end user. -jeramy b. smith

someday the chickens will come back to roost by 17-50th+post+robot · 2002-12-17 19:29 · Score: 0, Offtopic

soon motorola will own us all and we will have cell phone implants in our heads at birth. oh yeah and 39th post suckas

Not good news, for now anyway... by USC-MBA · 2002-12-17 19:37 · Score: 5, Interesting

Sadly, this does not amount to very good news. The Metrowerks acquisition comes only eight months after Lineo was forced to recapitalize (translation: they were broke), which itself came only a month after Lineo laid off over a third of its workforce. For one of the first and best-known embedded Linux companies to go under like this does not shine a good light on the industry.

Meanwhile, a glance at Metrowerks website shows the company leaning strongly toward PDA applications, the market for which has been slumping as of late, and, as Gartner Dataquest's analysis tells it:

PDAs are entering a period in which they will be embraced by enterprises as core infrastructure, like PCs.This portends a gradual shift away from Palm and toward Microsoft. Although Palm devices remain more prevalent in enterprises, Microsoft has been adept in providing the building blocks enterprises require. Most companies Gartner talks with are moving with, or planning to move with, the Microsoft wave.

Note that the idea of Microsoft getting a leg up in "core infrastructure" integration means that the company also poses a threat to embedded applications for such "smart devices" as portable phones and videoconferencing technology.

Though the overall outlook may seem bleak for these companies, a winner is someone who can look a challenge and see an opportunity. As a libertarian, I am anti-monolpoly, and thus I hope Metrowerks' leadership can show the kind of vision needed to put Lineo's intellectual capital to good use in counteracting the Microsoft menace.

Re:Not good news, for now anyway... by peaworth · 2002-12-18 05:27 · Score: 1

The draft version of the Gartner analysis, before edits to suck up to MS, actually said this:

PDAs are entering a period in which they will be embraced by enterprises as core infrastructure, like PCs. This portends a gradual shift away from Palm and toward Microsoft. Although Palm devices remain more prevalent in enterprises, Microsoft has been adept at forcing in, through legal threats and lack of technical interoperability, the building blocks enterprises must put up with. Most companies Gartner talks with are moving with, or planning to move with, the direction that Microsoft is forcing them to go.

Soviet sad man is saying: by Anonymous Coward · 2002-12-17 19:40 · Score: 0

i am sad that LinWerks seems like an appropriate new name :*(.

Soviet sad man says: by Anonymous Coward · 2002-12-17 19:43 · Score: 0

i am sad that the good news mentioned in that article was that Toshiba just invested a hefty chunk of change into MontaVista software, another player in the embedded market :*(.

Soviet sad man is saying: by Anonymous Coward · 2002-12-17 19:48 · Score: 0

i am sad that customers want a full solution, up to the application level, from a single source :*(.

Soviet sad man is saying: by Anonymous Coward · 2002-12-17 19:50 · Score: 0

i am sad that I used to work for a company that is now out of business that used to compete against both of these companies :*(.

Who cares? by phr2 · 2002-12-17 19:51 · Score: 4, Insightful

Why does anyone think these semi-proprietary embedded Linuxes are such a good thing? I have a Zaurus with Lineo on it and as far as I can tell, there's no useful source code available. One of the big attractions of Linux, the ability to modify your system without having to sign NDA's or buy licenses, has been lost. I don't claim they're violating the letter of the GPL, but they're holding back important stuff.

The alternative, OpenZaurus, is free but basically had to be done from scratch, from what I've heard, including some hardware reverse-engineering. I haven't gotten around to installing it on my Zaurus and I gather it still has some shortcomings. I hope Sharp will switch to OpenZaurus, release any new source code, and I don't care if Lineo goes down the tubes.

Proprietary Linuxes are just Windows with a penguin mascot. Let them rot.

Re:Who cares? by saihung · 2002-12-18 00:10 · Score: 2

Check out OpenZaurus 3.0. Lots of the stuff that was broken in the last release works now, and there are new, easier ways of getting the proprietary apps to move over. In many ways OZ is now superior to the Sharp rom.
Re:Who cares? by Kunta+Kinte · 2002-12-18 03:59 · Score: 2

Proprietary Linuxes are just Windows with a penguin mascot. Let them rot.
Lineo provide a valuable service to Sharp. Do you think sharp could have said "hey open-source community, I need a linux kernel and drivers for this new device I'm doing..., and have it ready in 6 months"?
Would you drop everything you're doing and do it for them?
OpenZaurus is nice but unless sharp puts a decent development team to help make sure it sticks around, how are they going to guarantee that it will?
Commercial accountability, delivery guarantees are needed, and that's where companies like Lineo, RedHat, Suse, etc. come in.
Why is it a crime for company to try to make a buck with open-source software, even if they obey all license agreements?

--
Based on upvotes, Ageism is the only "-ism" Slashdotters care about and think isn't SJW
Re:Who cares? by Anonymous Coward · 2002-12-18 05:29 · Score: 0

I have a Zaurus with Lineo on it and as far as I can tell, there's no useful source code available. All the kernel source code is available apart from that for the SD modules, apparently due to licensing issues. This is where of most of Lineo's work went in. I'm not saying they've produced the nicest pieces of code ever, but the kernel source is available. As for other things on the Zaurus, the source code for Qtopia is available under the GPL - that includes most of the applications on there. There are a few tools on there that are proprietry if I remember right, but that'd be Sharp not Lineo.
Re:Who cares? by phr2 · 2002-12-18 08:06 · Score: 2

Lineo provide a valuable service to Sharp. Do you think sharp could have said "hey open-source community, I need a linux kernel and drivers for this new device I'm doing..., and have it ready in 6 months"?
Yes. There are plenty of Linux developers would jump at that job.
Would you drop everything you're doing and do it for them?
Yes. I'd probably charge them less than Lineo charged, too.
OpenZaurus is nice but unless sharp puts a decent development team to help make sure it sticks around, how are they going to guarantee that it will?
There's no guarantee that Lineo will stick around either, and in fact it looked likely for a while that it would go down the tubes. The Motorola acquisition makes it more likely that they'll stick around (though there's still no guarantee); but it certainly wasn't a sure thing, which is what made it news.
Commercial accountability, delivery guarantees are needed, and that's where companies like Lineo, RedHat, Suse, etc. come in.
Yes, and in fact Redhat has been very good about releasing everything they do as free software (I can't say as much for Suse). So I'm not impressed with Lineo's refusal to do the same.
Why is it a crime for company to try to make a buck with open-source software, even if they obey all license agreements?
I haven't claimed that Lineo committed crimes. However, just because something isn't actually criminal doesn't make it praiseworthy. Also, as far as I know, Lineo has never "made a buck" (i.e. turned a profit), which is what put it in such danger. Red Hat, on the other hand is making a profit, while taking a much better attitude than Lineo about releasing free source code. So again, Lineo doesn't impress me.
Re:Who cares? by Anonymous Coward · 2002-12-18 08:33 · Score: 0

Just FYI, you can get the source for the GPL'd stuff on the Z, there's an e-mail address in the docs that you can send your request to.
They (Lineo) apparently want to slow the spread of the source (which has worked to some extent), so that's why you have to request the source. But after you have the code, you're able to redistribute it, no problem.
Re:Who cares? by MikeBabcock · 2002-12-19 02:57 · Score: 2

No, but you asked the wrong question. Is it morally wrong for a company to use open source software to produce a closed-source architecture? The reason they benefit from Linux is because it is _free_ (in the free speech, RMS kind of way). They ought to sell the Zaurus, with whatever price they like, with their modifications also _free_ so that I can benefit from that (by being able to diagnose and fix security holes, for example).

--
- Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
Re:Who cares? by Anonymous Coward · 2002-12-19 22:44 · Score: 0

as far as I can tell, there's no useful source code available.

That's not very "far", apparently: all the OS source (except the SD slot driver, which can't be disclosed because the SDCA is dominated by "security through obscurity" dimwits) can be downloaded from Sharp's websites.

OpenZaurus, is free but basically had to be done from scratch, from what I've heard

Crap: if you'd bothered to spend 90 seconds at the OZ website, instead of mindlessly repeating gossip, you would've discovered that OZ started out as a fork of that source code you claim isn't available. Future versions are allegedly going to be "done from scratch", based on Debian, because the OZ hackers don't like the glacial pace at which the stodgy suits at Sharp roll out major updates. But I seriously doubt that they will, literally: I expect the OZ folks will continue to use the driver code provided by Sharp, adapting it as needed to newer kernels, instead of re-inventing the wheel.

Which is exactly how it's supposed to work: Sharp gets a leg up on building its product by using OSS, and chips the enhancements it developed back into the pool. Which gives the OZ folks a head start on taking their Zs in directions that Sharp isn't interested in going.

IN SOVIET RUSSIA by Anonymous Coward · 2002-12-17 20:02 · Score: 0

Motorola acquires YOU!

Re:IN SOVIET RUSSIA by Anonymous Coward · 2002-12-17 20:45 · Score: 0

Actually, in Soviet Russia, it would be the state instead of a company, and instead of acquiring you they'd just shoot you. (this thread needs the soviet sad man)

Re:Zaurus (SD and MMC) by d^2b · 2002-12-17 20:39 · Score: 2

Quoth Bruce Perens

I hear there's a reverse-engineered driver for the SD coming from the iPaq.

y reading of the iPaq mailing lists is that there cannot currently be an open source SDIO driver due to licensing issues. OTOH, there is open source MMC drivers running on the ipaq.

I understand there is ongoing lobbying of the SDIO association to open the specs, but I had not heard of any success.

I can only think of one thing. by The+Pi-Guy · 2002-12-18 03:22 · Score: 2

(weird commercial voice) Hahlo Lino.

--pi

Re:Zaurus (SD and MMC) by mocm · 2002-12-18 03:33 · Score: 2

There cannot be an open source sd card driver written by the compaq/hp people because they have an official license and cannot violate that.
On the other hand, there shouldn't be any problem to reverse engineer the sharp, hp or any other closed sourced linux driver and write your own. Although, in the US you may have some trouble with the DMCA.

--
***Quis custodiet ipsos custodes***

Re:Zaurus (SD and MMC) by Bruce+Perens · 2002-12-18 04:08 · Score: 2

Well, the Zaurus uses only one of the 4 serial channels of the SD card. Is that what an MMC card does? I need only use the card for storage, not for its feature of protecting someone else from the user.

Bruce

--
Bruce Perens.

Wait a sec... Motorola owns Metrowerks? by Anonymous Coward · 2002-12-18 04:20 · Score: 0

When the hell did that happen? I've been a developer with MW stuff for years and I don't recall hearing about this one.

first thing that came to mind by Anonymous Coward · 2002-12-18 04:51 · Score: 0

"Hello Lino" Penguinlino. The new L-60. "Hello Lino."

Re:Zaurus (SD and MMC) by mocm · 2002-12-18 05:16 · Score: 2

AFAIK, none of the linux driver use the SD specific features, i.e. more than the 4 serial lines. The only problem seems to be that the initialisation of the SD card is a little bit different from the MMC card and the HP people don't want to put that into open source.
So the best case scenario would be that we can take the open source MMC driver and add the SD initialisation taken from one of the closed source ones. This should at least give us the ability to use SD memory cards.
This is under the assumption that there is an open source version of the ipaq MMC drivers, which I am pretty sure there is, but which I haven't used (no MMC ipaq) or looked at.
The sharp SD driver module is not stripped in any way and all the names of the subroutines are pretty intuitive.
There was a long discussion about the whole subject a couple of months ago on the ipaq mailing list. You could try looking for it in the archives at handhelds.org

--
***Quis custodiet ipsos custodes***

Just once... by WindBourne · 2002-12-18 06:36 · Score: 1

I would love to see a hardware company ask us what we want and what ideas we have. Far too often, the phbs have all the answers with none of the ideas, problems, or real solutions. I am willing to bet that there are others here who have been working on ideas and would love to talk to the right ppl at IBM, Tansmeta, or any company BEFORE they are in trouble.
Yes, i know this is off-topic, but companies like Lineo could have survived if they simply quit trying to lock in customers and instead worked on new and different markets.
Unfortunatly, more companies will go under before the phbs get the bright idea to invest a bit of money into helping create markets.

--
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.

where did this all start? by Anonymous Coward · 2002-12-18 10:12 · Score: 0

what the hell is all this 'in soviet russia' stuff about?!

There's a reason... by jimberini · 2002-12-18 11:38 · Score: 1

There's a reason that they call it code-warrior ;)

Re:Zaurus (SD and MMC) by MikeBabcock · 2002-12-19 03:07 · Score: 2

It begs the question:

If you use software in the USA that was reverse-engineered in Russia, are you guilty of anything, or just the Russians (who will be exhonerated by a smart jury)? :)

--
- Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)

Last Post! by alpg · 2003-01-01 11:18 · Score: 1

Earl Wiener, 55, a University of Miami professor of management science,
telling the Airline Pilots Association (in jest) about 21st century aircraft:

"The crew will consist of one pilot and a dog. The pilot will
nurture and feed the dog. The dog will be there to bite the
pilot if he touches anything.
-- Fortune, Sept. 26, 1988
[the *magazine*, silly!]

- this post brought to you by the Automated Last Post Generator...

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