Scientific Research Encountering More Restrictions

vab writes "MSNBC is running an article that details how the MIT AI Lab, the birth place of the free software movement, walked away from a $404K study because the government wanted to restrict participation by foreign students. The article talks about further restrictions the US Government is trying to impose in the name of homeland security and how other research institutions are reacting."

Comments

Foreign students

[Uruk]

I'm glad MIT did the right thing and walked away from this study. It is although somewhat difficult to tell whether they did this out of a principled stand or if they did it simply because they have so many foreign students that they wouldn't be able to pull it off unless they used them. That quite possibly could be the case.

There's no reason to believe that some college student from Hong Kong is a terrorist. Sure there are some terrorists out there, but I doubt they're sweating their midterms at some university. To deny foreigners the ability to work on some stuff isn't just slightly racist, it's outrageously stupid since there are some unbelievably bright people who come to the US from other places for school.

In the financial services industry, most people have to be bonded - that is the FBI gets your fingerprints and they do some sort of rudimentary background check on you. Would that placate the "homeland security" wolves? At any rate, it would be more information on foreign students than they have on most Americans.

Sometimes I think that homeland security is the process of a bunch of people staring at a collander and trying to decide which hole to patch first. Sure it's possible to keep the total morons from pullling off something big (or burning you in the same way they did before) but how many people out there really think that with anything less than a fascist state, it's possible to secure the country against someone whose well funded, clever, and out to get the US?

Re:Foreign students

[burNtchicken]

The trend is disturbing, and in one specific sense I think you're right. They're trying to patch holes, or alleviate symptons, instead of attacking the source of the problem. Is anyone in government asking what the source is?
If a bunch of people are out to get the U.S., then why are they doing it? With all the anti-U.S. sentiment that I hear in some discussion groups, are we doing something wrong?
It's not that we shouldn't patch holes in our security, because we should. It just seems to me that nobody is addressing the policies of our country which have made us a target. Maybe we're doing something wrong, and maybe we're not, but nobody in the government is bothering to ask.
It's like we're the automatic moral authority.

Re:Foreign students

[plugger]

Very insightful, but when you say 'Maybe we're doing something wrong', you make the same mistake as those who hate Americans. You, and most of your compatriots, are doing nothing wrong. It's your government's policies which are causing anger abroad.

I'm at work at the moment, so I won't explore the idea that apathetic populations are responsible for their government's excesses. That isn't a dig at the USA btw, I live in the UK and we're quickly catching up with your country's low voter turnout and general disinterest in the things done in our name.

Re:Foreign students

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't have to explore the idea. I know that populations are responsible for their government's policies. Unfortunately, while it can be attributed partially to apathy, there is a general feeling here that there is nothing we can do about our governments problems (ie. corruption, etc.) Like it's more or less too big and out of our control.

I unfortunately, am just peeking out of my hole and beginning to educate myself on what I can do about the problems with my government. And I'd have to say it's rather intimidating, and I don't think most people are up to the task. Most of us feel free to bitch about our government, but not really do anything. Nobody really cares that much.

I know personally that for most of my life I've been content to work to pay the bills, and screw off (Watch TV, play video games, go to a bar, whatever). Most people I know are the same. I've met a good amount of people in my life, and I don't know one person that does more than vote occasionally. Nobody even writes their representatives. I mean, I'm sure people do, but I've never met those people.

In my, albiet limited, experience, the mindset of this country is not one of concern in how our country turns out, or what we can do to make sure that it stays a worthwhile place to live for ourselves, and future generations. The mindset is generally more selfish.

Re:Foreign students

[ErikZ]

What if it's because we're doing something RIGHT? What if by accepting the best and brightest from all over the world, we're leaving these heavily armed countries with the dregs of humanity?

Re:Foreign students

[tassii]

If a bunch of people are out to get the U.S., then why are they doing it? With all the anti-U.S. sentiment that I hear in some discussion groups, are we doing something wrong?

But what if we aren't? (We are going out of our way to piss people off btw, but the argument must go both ways.) Sometimes you just have to face up to the fact that some people need to hate. The Nazi's did it in WWII, the Taliban did it until we stepped in and most terrorist organizations are doing it as we speak. Yes, many of these organizations started with a principle and a goal, but too quickly those that thrived on hate rose in power and soon the message was tossed out the window and hate took over. Look at the Islamic Jihad in Palestine. If the Israelis split their country down the middle and created the Palestinian State, they would still find a reason for suicide bombers to go into Israel, even tho their proported purpose has been accomplished. The leaders thrive on the hate and see no reason to give up their personal power just because a little thing like peace tried to break out.

It's not that we shouldn't patch holes in our security, because we should. It just seems to me that nobody is addressing the policies of our country which have made us a target. Maybe we're doing something wrong, and maybe we're not, but nobody in the government is bothering to ask.

That's because the people in power here as well are thriving on conflict. Lets face it, if it wasn't for Sept 11 and the following "war on terrorism", GW's approval rating would be in the toilet. That's one of the reason's that the Iraq thing has 'suddenly' become so important. Those in power need something to distract us from the porblems at home. What politian said "Nothing like a nice little war to distract the people from the real problems"?

Re:Foreign students

[Rhubarb Crumble]

Great, we now have all this stuff imported from over seas but now that very American can't buy it because he has no job and no money to pay for it. Hmmm, things must equalize somehow...

Execpt that's the point when the so-called "free market" government of the US suddenly forgets about free marketeering and becomes protectionist. Think steel import tariffs.

You seem to think that just because 3rd world countries make products for the USA that we're somehow exploiting them. Did you ever think that it's better then having no job at all?

Does the phrase "economic leverage" mean anything to you? US (or european, for that matter) importers of goods can dictate prices at will to 3rd world (sweatshop) manufacturers, because if the workers complain the sweatshop just gets moved somewhere else. It may be better than no job at all, but I'd still call that "exploitation", wouldn't you?

Re:Foreign students

[Melantha_Bacchae]

burNtchicken wrote:

> They're trying to patch holes, or alleviate
> symptons, instead of attacking the source of the
> problem. Is anyone in government asking what the
> source is?

Nope. Our fearless leader listens to his political advisors, but not his policy advisors. So he, and the rest of the government, fixes perceived holes and symptoms, as the people stampede in panic (driven on by the media), and people like Ashcroft and Poindexter try to use the stampede to further their little power trip.

Three women, wise, courageous, and loving, dared to speak out. If they had been listened to, part of 911 could have been averted, and Enron and Worldcom could have pulled out of their nose dives, lives and fortunes could have been saved. But no one listened, and now it is far too late.

> If a bunch of people are out to get the U.S.,
> then why are they doing it? With all the
> anti-U.S. sentiment that I hear in some
> discussion groups, are we doing something wrong?

Al Qaeda is run by a madman, they don't need reasons to hate anybody. As for the rest, try reading some foreign newspapers (many have English versions on the web), and they will give you an earful. Everything from Iraq, to our position on Israel (and supplying the weapons they use to kill kids), to the misbehavior of our troups in the many places they are stationed (South Korea is furious over one of our vehicles running into two of their girls), to our general stance as the world's greatest bully (er, superpower). Our nation may be founded on great ideals, but we aren't exactly measuring up to them these days.

> It's not that we shouldn't patch holes in our
> security, because we should.

We can't. Even if we became a totalitarian regime, the country is just too big, we don't have the money, and it would disrupt our infrastructure too badly. We could have fixed the existing communications problems and upgraded the FBI's computers, but that would have been too boring to get funding for.

"Lola, kindness is not enough, look for the reason of hatred and anger.
When you find and understand that, love becomes the strongest power."
Belabera, "Mothra 3: King Ghidora Attacks"

Re:Foreign students

[irix]

If a bunch of people are out to get the U.S., then why are they doing it?

The U.S. is the world's superpower. The only country with economic strength and the ability to project military power. People are going to hate you because:

1. The U.S took the other side in some international dispute.
2. They resent their culture being pushed aside by U.S. pop culture.
3. They are jealous of the standard of living in the U.S.

I think if you look you'll find that dislike of America boils down into one of those three categories. I am Canadian, and despite the fact that we have a theoretically higher standard of living, you'll find reason #2 is most likely why someone from Canada dislikes the U.S. - we know everything about American culture, they know nothing about ours.

The problem is, when you are the world's superpower, it is hard to hide from these problems. Isolationisim was tried in the 1930s, but that didn't work out too well.

Sure, the U.S. has made foreign policy mistakes - maybe even lots of them - but there aren't any magic solutions that will make this all go away.

Re:Foreign students

[LazyDawg]

Yeah, I'm a canuck too, but you missed a valuable point in your list:

4. The Yanks keep accusing us of providing an easy way-in to their country for terrorists and undesirables.

Like, my God, when are they going to notice/remember that EVERY SINGLE ACT OF TERRORISM on the US has come from within their own borders? Remember Tim McVeigh? He was a Yank. Remember the crazy hijackers from November the Ninth 2001? They were living for quite some time in the States, if not full-blown Yanks themselves.

And here's another point you missed:

5. Yanks' economic domination of all of their neighbours and big trading partners.

There's something very upsetting about having to well oil for the Yanks up here, then sell it to the States, then buy back processed oil products from the States again. Our fresh water is not our own, our trees and minerals aren't ours. I'd be a lot less upset at our neighbours to the south if they weren't so freaking colonial.

Eventually, I hope, countries with some economic power over the States band together and say "fsck you, America!" and stop making losing trades with them, in spite of all the economic treaties we've signed.

Bravo!!!!

[byron150]

I for one congratulate MIT!!! It was a bold move to stand up to something as blatantly wrong as what the government was trying to do. Security must not be gained at the sacrifice of our morals. What does that say about us as a society, our nation who claims to lead all others in progressive thought. We welcomed these people to our land when no other country would take them. France gave us a statue embodying the princple. Now we want to send them away because we think all people of a race would also wish us harm. Extremists come from all races, and someday a white female American will do something terribly destructive which will result in the loss of thousands of lives. What will happen then? The government steps in and calms us down and tells us that we can't trust each other and will therefore take away every personal freedom we have in the name of making us secure? I'll spend a cold day in hell before I allow that to happen to me. So yeah, GO MIT!!!!

RTFA

[MeanMF]

But the National Security Agency refused to budge from a requirement that any foreigners working on a planned project at MIT's Artificial Intelligence Laboratory be screened by the government in advance

They didn't want to restrict anybody from working on anything - they just wanted to run backround checks on non-citizens working on the projects. Is that really such a big deal??

Re:In a post September 11, 2001 world...

[mark_lybarger]

slow down there cowboy... when i grew up, i learned that people kill people. then somewhere along the way, that's been converted into guns kill people. and now you want us to believe that information kills people?

i have got to get into a new line of work!

You Take Someone's Money - You Take Their Strings

[Aaron M. Renn]

The bottom line is that if you take someone's money - the government's, a corporation's, a foundation's, etc - you are implicitly or explicitly agreeing to the strings attached. Seldom is there a "free lunch". If there is money being offered, there is usually a reason why. I'm not entitled to have free money come raining down on me. Why should a wealthy institution like MIT? They know the game.

If I offer the FSF a $20,000 grant to develop a "Foo" software package for me, provided they design it how I want, the FSF is certainly free to turn that money down and do their own thing (or do without a Foo package). But that doesn't make me an evil man for asking the FSF to write a program that meets my needs if I give them a donation to do so. Similarly for the government.

Re:This is A Good Thing

[spikexyz]

A saying, from whom I can't remember: "We're all immigrants, or from families there of, we just got here at different times."

Without foreigners, the US would not exist, and without more foreigners, it can not grow, change, or have any right to call itself the land of the free.

Re:In a post September 11, 2001 world...

[shepd]

>Imagine China/Pakistan/North Korea having satellite technology 20 yrs ago. It would have been a very different world.

Yes, imagine it. Satellites would finally be cheap enough today that one of the many freedom groups in China could afford to put one up in the air and the PRC would finally get its eyes opened up. Wouldn't it be nice!

Re:I can see why they'd walk away from it...

[rovingeyes]

I am tired of Foriegn students coming to America and taking up spots in good Universities and Colleges that could go to Americans.

You know why America still holds its place as a technological leader? Not becoz of just american researchers but a significant foreign nationals working in America, who wouldn't have that same oppurtunity in other countries. AFAIK, America's support for intelligence and research skills over nationality has let it remain supreme.

I think we should close our borders to people who only want to go to school here, and then leave the country when they finish their education!

Wrong again, most of the students who come here don't make plans to leave. They settle here. In my past 3.5 yrs in college I have seen 90% of foreign nationals do something or other to stay even overstay their visa time.

Foriegn students are a big security risk! Their loyalties are always in question.

Agreed, but solution is not to close borders. And again you cannot let people walk freely in and out just for the sake of technology or research. Its neither a one line solution nor can be found in a week. May be this is the risk we have to take for the sake of free economy otherwise we have to turn like those chinese closing down thousands of internet kiosks and putting restrictions on our citizens! Not good!

Sounds familiar.

[grub]

2003: You must use Americans for this important work.

1941:You must use blonde haired, blue eyed Germans for this important work.

Re:Sounds familiar.

[jmccay]

You have no idea what you're talking about. This is about the Government doing background checks into who will be working on it's projects. This is something that will always happen. Background security checks are required for a lot of Government job and research. Get over it!

Re:and the problem is???

[1u3hr]

under what conditions will the education be paid for? who says the person will not go through college and then split the US therefore not benefiting anyone but themselves and their home country?

You have it backwards: the brain drain doesn't work like that -- smart people from poor countries study for advanced degrees in thhe US, then stay there to make 100 times the income they could back home, or have research opportunities impossible there.

Those that do have their education paid for may often be obligated to return home to benefit their countries -- as a form of foreign aid (teach a man to fish, etc). But many find ways to dodge that to stay in the land of milk and honey.

Re:Hey I'll take the money

[dhartman]

Puppets? I don't know what school you went to, but most, if not all, undergraduate programs exist only out of necessity. Universities reward professors based on the amount of funding they bring into the system. Maybe this type of funding, while it may be racist, is just what we need to encourage more US born people to pursue advanced degrees. The percentage of foreign grad students is pretty high in most universities (I'm talking technology based degrees...who cares about a PhD in History)

So you can go on living that fairy tail...I'll just rememeber who to contact when I decide to sell my swamp land in Florida.

Re:This is A Good Thing

[No Such Agency]

They are our guests, and they shouldn't expect that we give them the keys and the kitchen sink.

No, it's more like "they're your guests, and you won't let them help you do the dishes because you're afraid they might steal the silverware, despite having no evidence at all to suggest they would". Yes, I'm stretching the metaphor but I feel it had to be said. "Foreign" does not equal "future terrorist" any more (or any less) than "U.S. citizen" does. We've forgotten McVeigh and Nichols *so* quickly. And the anthrax mailer remains mysteriously at large...

Before you agree with the US govt on this...

[dillon_rinker]

...pay attention to who's saying the government is wrong: Sheila Widnall. From 1993-1997, she was secretary of the Air Force, arguably the most technologically advanced of the four branches of the US military. For those not up on US government, the Secretary of the Air Force is the civilian head of the US Air Force. All the generals answered to her; she answered only to the Secretary of Defense, who answers to POTUS. She would have had authority and responsiblity for all the research funded by the Air Force, so she's seen both sides of this (though I don't know to what extent she micromanaged it).

She makes a VERY good point that what the government should do is to determine what's classified research and what's not. It's reasonable to restrict the participation of foreign nationals in classified research, but the concern with this grant was that it was for unclassified research.

For you cynics, note that this grant wasn't for that much money (only half a million) and was probably chosen to send a message because they didn't much want to do it anyway and it wasn't enough money to worry about.

Re:This is A Good Thing

[robbyjo]

The problem is that if all research funds require no foreign citizens at all, then there are consequences that will backfire very badly, such as:

1. It will decimate the number of graduate students.

Note that there is a significant portion of foreign graduate students, most of which are hanging about the funds for their TAs or RAs. Cutting their funds simply send them fleeing.

2. This will in turn bring many research projects ground to halt.

Since there are a lot less graduate students, researches will ultimately understaffed, and thus will bring it to halt. Of course this will recover as the animo from US students to continue to graduate studies grows.

3. This makes other countries advance in their research.

See #1. Lots of other countries like Germany, Australia, UK, and so on still use foreign grad students to do research. Not to mention if China will follow the same path.

Bully for MIT

[MacAndrew]

If the gov't wants security checks, and in some cases that's reasonable (remember all the military work MIT has done, most famously during WWII), that should get them on EVERYONE. Stop this xenophobic insult now.

Aside from the philosophical problem with accused foreign citizens mindlessly, need we remind the NSA of all the wonderful homegrown dangers we have managed to grow in the U.S., from Timothy McVeigh (& Nichols) to the Unabomber to the Columbine shooters to John Walker Lindh to this DC sniper bastard Muhammed, and that's just the last ten years. And and those are just the killers; don't forget double agents Aldrich Ames (CIA) and Robert Philip Hanssen (FBI). Even if you are sympathetic to some of these, consider the rest.

My argument is that if you're going to be paranoid, do be equal opportunity about it out of respect for logic and fair play. Look in your own backyard.

Re:In a post September 11, 2001 world...

[Rhubarb Crumble]

Though it is critical that the study/data be released so that others can improve on that work, it is also critical that information not fall into the wrong hands. Imagine China/Pakistan/North Korea having satellite technology 20 yrs ago.

Yeah. Like, imagine if someone had gone to Afghanistan 20 years ago and taught a bunch of insane fanatics to build bombs.

Or someone had sold poison gas-making technology to mad Iraqi dictators.

But that would NEVER happen, would it?

How long before soldiers with "HS" appear?

[Newer Guy]

I mean, it's only a matter of time before our version of Hitler's 'SS' show up here...with 'HS' (Homeland Security) on their lapels. Think it can't happen? I'll bet that the citizens of Germany in the 1930's thought that too. We have unchecked paranoia in this country..and that's very dangerous, especially when the Government is using it to control its citizens.

Re:Good job US Govt

[buss_error]

McCarthy once told a person under investigation "This committy will decide what rights you have and what rights you do not have!"

Personally, I think your views are shortsighted and, sorry to be so frank, wrong.

It's true that 9-11 was a terrible thing to happen. It's also true that the US has done more damage to itself in the name of "Protecting the Homeland" than any terrorist could ever do. We have restricted the very freedoms that make this country great. We have violated the rights of people because they MIGHT be someone who knows someone who's dangerous. We have detained citizens without trial or charges and forbiden them to speak with anyone, even an attorney, even a government appointed attorney. We strip search grandmothers, and detain people that have funny last names. We listen to the quisling, reporting people that don't leave tips in greasy spoons.

"Those that would trade liberity for security deserve [and will get] neither." - B. Franklin.

As for your assertion that no one thought flight school students could be terrorists, you have your facts wrong. Remember the conflab at the FBI? That's what that's about. Someone DID think there might be terrorists being trained at flight schools.

To protect ourselves from terrorist requires a scalpel, not the howtizer that's being used. The true cancer of a free society are those that would render freedom impossible. The true terrorists are they that wage war on the rights of the people. The real terror is the loosing of the dogs of a police state.

more accurately...

[g4dget]

"When the Soviet Union tried to keep its research secret during the Cold War, their whole scientific apparatus atrophied," said former Air Force Secretary Sheila Widnall, now an aeronautics professor at MIT.

When the Soviet Union tried to keep its research secret, the research moved overseas. Restrictions on foreign nationals, visa restrictions, and secrecy are the best way for the US to ensure that research moves to Europe, Japan, and China. With secrecy, researchers won't generate the publications that advertise that a country and a lab is first rate. With visa restrictions, educated foreigners will increasingly look for jobs overseas, where they are more welcome than ever, or just stay at home and try to make things work there. Hiring restrictions on foreign nationals for "secret" projects further reduce available jobs and further drive them away.

Re:Good job US Govt

[Daniel Dvorkin]

The enemies of freedom, themselves being quite naive, are always quick to accuse others of naivete.

Re:Hey I'll take the money

[Listen Up]

"I'll take the money"..." There is no saying it was racist."...what a couple of ignorant, blind, apathetic as*holes.
This is McCarthyism all over again, folks. The Bush adminstration needs to be taken out of office NOW. Land of the free??? Land of the federated, pre-fascist states. The government told MIT that the only way that MIT could get a $404k research grant was to let the NSA do a complete background investigation on all "non-Americans and foreign nationals" only, in the name of "Homeland Security". MIT said to piss off and forfeited the grant.
YEAH MIT!!!
Could you imagine how f*cked we would have been in WWII if the Department of Homeland Security wouldn't let Einstein work on research in our country because he was German (and a supporter of Communism)?
"Homeland Security" = xenophobia and racism. Period.
Mistakes of our past are meant to be lessons in which we learn from to not make again, they are not meant to be repeated. One of my favorite quotes in the world..."They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety -- Benjamin Franklin." That is exactly that the Bush administration is.

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[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:Domestic governments

[MacAndrew]

So you're saying you're apathetic about apathy?

Millions of us do vote, and almost exactly half of those who voted did not choose this President, nor were they apathetic about their choice.

Voting is technically irrational, that is, the benefits do not outweigh the trouble of doing it. But as the last election demonstrated, sometimes it's a good thing to be irrational. (OK, Florida sort of showed that your vote does AND doesn't count, but do show up. :)

BTW, an easy way to get involved is to simply donate some money to one of the many orgainzations that worry about watching gov't 24/7, or merely doing good things where gov't does not. They won't think you're apathetic.

And even arguing here is political involvement...

Re:Hey I'll take the money

[Listen Up]

Um, dude? You do know that Soviet archives do show that McCarthy was correct in his assertions about Communists trying to control content in Hollywood? (You do also know that Richard Nixon proved Alger Hiss to be a Communist working for the Soviet Union? Soviet archives showed him to be correct also.)
That was not my point.
Just thought I would point these things out to your biggoted white liberal ass. Oh, sorry, did I make a wrong assumption there?
Yes, you did.
Perhaps you are just one of the decadant Americans which must be converted to Islam or killed. Whoops, that would just be another biggoted statement on my part.
Yes, it was.
You can also be pretty damn sure the FBI did investigate Einstein before bringing him into any research. Just as they did for all the people on the Manhatten Project.
That was not my point.
You do know that to get a security clearance, you need to get a background check, right?
Yes, I used to have one.
Or are you just professionally ignorant?
I am professional, yes, ignorant, no. I am simply not blinded by our current nationalism and so-called patriotism because of 09/11/2001. What needs to happen is to judge each person's actions individually, not just because they are from outside the US. The solution lies in fixing the cause of terrorism, nothing else. I could full well support the fall of Israel myself, and I am a full (born in the US) citizen and an educated, self-thinking man (read: educated atheist). What makes me any less dangerous than someone who is here on an education grant studying at MIT and follows Islam? Nothing. I can kill you just as much as them. Therefore the logic being followed by our government is wrong. You solve problems by solving the source of the problem. Why do people hate the US? And then solve that problem. That problem does not have a race, a face, or a nationality. People both inside and outside the US hate the US. Why? That is what is important. Not racial, national, or religious discrimination in a futile attempt to solve a much larger problem.