Girls not Going into CS

Girls in CS by bencc99 · 2003-01-12 04:23 · Score: 5, Interesting

Worth a look is this article written by a girl doing CS at the university of kent.

Re:Girls in CS by Anitra · 2003-01-12 08:03 · Score: 5, Interesting

I agree. In many of my earlier CS classes, there were guys & girls who were just in it for the money, and didn't really care that much about what they were learning, or why. Most of those tended to get weeded out by the sophmore-level classes, though. (CS is harder than it originally looked to those people.)

I am an odd case - I switched into CS, and I am a woman. My original major was in the management department; when I decided I wanted to learn more about computers, I could have easily switched to an MIS degree. But I want to be taken seriously. So I became a CS major. It's been a long, hard year since I switched, but I don't regret it. I'm doing research on creating an adaptive website using a genetic algorithm, and I'm only one class short of graduating on time. I plan to go on to grad school in CS - I want to get a M.S. in Human-Computer Interaction.

I switched after the dot-coms tanked, and I knew it. The important thing for me is not whether I get a job in IT (not likely right now anyway), but what I've learned about how computers work. I can open up my PC and muck around with it now, if I wanted to. I can hold an intelligent conversation about the pros and cons of a language. I know how to customize a Linux kernel.

People always told me college was about becoming an educated person, not about getting a job. I didn't understand them until I became a CS major. For the first time in my life, I'm studying something simply because I enjoy it (although I might not agree while doing some of my assignments). I think my study of computer science has made me a more well-rounded person.

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Re:Girls in CS by sonali · 2003-01-12 15:39 · Score: 4, Interesting

I'm a geek and proud to be called one. I am a CS grad student and yeah I also switched my career to CS! Like a girl already said this, I am glad I learnt how computers work(compared to getting a job in IT though that wont be such a bad option ;) ) On a side note, my bf is in CS too and I enjoy working on projects with him.

And as for the statement that

Girls do not like doing anything that involves concentrating on one single thing for long periods,

all I can say is oh my gawd such total BS. No one really belives that right? I did my undergrad in India in an all-women school and we used to compare ourselves with guys from other schools in our university and you know what we always came on top.

The problem by polyphemus-blinder · 2003-01-12 04:28 · Score: 5, Interesting

is that most women simply aren't intersted in IT. It's pretty obvious to me. How many of you found it beneficial to expound on the virtues of open source software or the beauty of TCP/IP structure during a date? Probably not many.

That's not to say that they can't be good at it, though. It seems that women will study harder and get better grades, but its gonna be guys hanging out after class discussing the stuff in the pub because they have a genuine interest. Just my two cents.

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It's all going according to .plan.

Re:The problem by Serra · 2003-01-12 05:13 · Score: 2, Interesting

is that women are actively encouraged to avoid CS.
When I (a women) was in college and trying to declare a major, I told my advisor that I wanted to get my degree in CS. He immediately replied that I should go into biology instead, because the math in CS would be too difficult. I am not even remotely bad at math, so his statement was somewhat shocking to me. I can only assume that it was caused by the general "girls are bad at math" mentality. I'm not debating whether women are worse than men at math or science, but when a professor at a top ranked engineering school automatically assumes that the girl student in front of him doesn't have enough math skills to get a CS degree, then there is definitely a problem.
I also have to add that my mother discouraged me from getting a CS degree too. She said, "Computer Science is so lonely... you don't want to do that. Wouldn't you rather do something that involved people?"
In the end I decided to get my BS in biology with a minor in computer science. Perhaps it was my fault for listening to them, but I ended up wasting time learning about e-coli when I should have been focusing on what interested me... (I'm now running my own software company.)

Re:So what? by GroovBird · 2003-01-12 04:34 · Score: 5, Interesting

> All descrimination is bad, positive descrimination is included.

True, but you might want to investigate why this is so. Perhaps there is something inhibiting them to make a free choice.

Dave

Hard to be a woman in CS... by Skyshadow · 2003-01-12 04:46 · Score: 5, Interesting

I know two women who majored in CS -- one's a good friend and the other one is my sister.

The real problem, IMO, is that there seems to be a couple of guys in any given CS class who seriously cannot handle women, and who one way or the other make life hell for the women in the class. Some are just plain creeps, some are always trying to upstage them, some seem convinced that women in CS get through just because they're given preferential treatment. My sis used to get comments like "Geez, you're smart for a girl" at least once a semester -- that's a pretty shitty thing to say; if you think it's a compliment, it's not.

Then there are the usual stalker types who get their jollies sending out creepy emails and eyeballing girls in the class -- my friend decided to work rather than go to grad school at Madison because this happened *twice* (on the level of restrining order), fer chrissake.

Granted this is just anecdotal and two people does not a study make. But say what you want about societal pressures on girls not to be scientific or a predisposition against math, what I've seen drive them away is a hostile environment that doesn't seem to exist in most other fields.

What can we do to fix it? I just don't know. When they bothered my sister, the solution was obvious but definately not constructive. My friend used the law to help her (restraining orders and all), but that didn't seem to help in the overall scheme of things either -- who needs that sort of pressure while taking 400-level CS courses?

Anyhow, that's the problem as I see it. I don't have a good solution, but it's something we *must* work on.

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Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.

because they think its boring by t_allardyce · 2003-01-12 04:47 · Score: 3, Interesting

Computer science is lonely, i hate that feeling you get on a friday evening when your stuck in a basement lab debugging on your own. The only difference between boys and girls in CS is that girls realise that its going to be like this _before_ they choose their degree where as us guys dont realise until half way through the second year that actually, human company can be more interesting than assembly language.

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Geek Superiority, and an Uninviting Atmosphere by Flamesplash · 2003-01-12 04:48 · Score: 3, Interesting

I think part of the problem is that male geeks tend to have a bit of a superiority complex as a generalization, and that same is not true for female engineers, so they tend to feel like they are not as good as the guys simply because all the guys make them feel as such. It's not really inviting

I would say that the environment is not one to be condusive to a female. Let alone the hormone factor.

A very appropriate comic.

I think that much like females outperforming males in elementary school they also do so in engineering programs. I knew a few Engineers at school that could kick any guys but in what they did.

--
"Not knowing when the dawn will come, I open every door." - Emily Dickinson

Re:Geek Superiority, and an Uninviting Atmosphere by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-12 07:56 · Score: 1, Interesting

"I think part of the problem is that male geeks tend to have a bit of a superiority complex"

Rubbish. What happens is that geeks tend to get ignored, bullied and beaten up in grade school/high-school, and get an *inferiority* complex, and hide themselves in technical crap to hide the pain/anger.

"because all the guys make them feel as such"

On what planet? If anything, as long as there's no *automatic superiority assumption* ON THE WOMAN'S PART, I can deal with female engineers. It's just that most of the women engineers I've met simply had the good fortune of having parents that pushed them that way and paid for the schooling, as opposed to actually having an interest in the field (like me, with a scope in high school and learning assembler). I've met a 20 year old girl engineering student who didn't know what 'OS' stood for. Oh yeah, that's going to be a brilliant engineer right there.

"females outperforming males in elementary school they also do so in engineering programs"

That's purely anecdotal. Women simply don't have the childish viewpoint necessary to be good engineers, period. Yes, that's right, childish. You have to be able to have a child's viewpoint to really understand engineering. Simply learning what has been done before and vomiting it up on command does not make for a good engineer.
That's why I have a problem with Chinese/Indian whatever engineers as well. They're great at memorizing and vomiting, but change the problem a little bit, and the confused-looks/shoulder-shrugging festival begins.
Being able to question, and have a sense of wonder, like a child, that's real engineering.

Re:you call this a career? by SunPin · 2003-01-12 04:49 · Score: 4, Interesting

Could it be that Hollywood has declared all geeks as their sworn enemies? And vice-versa?

I think that has something to do with it.

--
Laws are for people with no friends.

Re:Gender equality is a myth by Psx29 · 2003-01-12 04:53 · Score: 4, Interesting

As long as there aren't restrictive sociocultural barriers preventing women from doing what they want, there nothing wrong with have gender disparities.

I happen to agree, this whole mess reminds of this. That is to say, political correctness and 'equality' have gone too far in today's society.

Re:umm.. Duh? by Yokaze · 2003-01-12 04:55 · Score: 5, Interesting

"Computer science is as much about computers as astronomy is about telescopes" (Edsgar Dijkstra)

Actually, in my experience, the large drop-out rate in CS is partly based on the expection of people. They think, they are going to play with computers, but they aren't. They are going to play with ideas and information.

In other languages (French, German, Italian, Japanese, Spanish) CS is dubbed as "information science".

--
"Between strong and weak, between rich and poor [...], it is freedom which oppresses and the law which sets free"

Re:So what? by neuroticia · 2003-01-12 04:57 · Score: 2, Interesting

Oh. One more thing. Once you get into the "real world" (the world beyond typical means of education) a lot of us go as guys or asexuals, opting for a generic email address like jsmith@domain.com instead of janeS@domain.com, or even johnS@domain.com This will skew "numbers" of women practicing in the IT field, if you do a casual survey.

I opt to retain my female status unless I'm obviously getting treated unfairly (common occurence when communicating with tech support staff at various mobo manufacturers, hosting providers, and ISPs, oddly enough.) then I swap over to my alternate male ego and get treated as though I know what I'm talking about.

Dammit, why do some guys feel the need to explain what a traceroute is when you just SAID you used it? I'm NOT confusing it with a bloody ping.

And, walking into a computer store? I wish I could successfully pull off dressing like a guy and spare the schmeel about "This great new thing called Windows95" as some pimply teenager tries to hand me a dusty box full of upgrade floppies.

-Sara

Other Reasons by witcomb · 2003-01-12 05:03 · Score: 2, Interesting

There are other reasons why women would not be interested in computer science. As mentioned the work is pretty intense and does require a genuine interest. However, the work can often be fairly individual as well. Although you may be working in a team on a project, this doesn't mean you are in constant interaction with people. There can be times where I go a whole day or two without speaking to people, while working that is. I can't see many women being interested in such a profession. When I go to other departments which are basically being run by women, such as payroll, it seems like they are having a party everyday in comparison to our work enviroment.

Back to the genuine interest, as someone mentioned men like their toys be it cars, computers or even that ball you bounce around while thinking. We love to play with things, break things, make things work. We tend to have a passion for our toys, we could spend days just tweaking things which would seem pointless to others. Simpily put we have a passion for playing. Whereas women tend only to hold things such as releationships as close to them as we hold our passion for playing.

Image of the IT industry by ToastedBagel · 2003-01-12 05:10 · Score: 5, Interesting

The article was mentioning something about THE IMAGE of IT industry and I think that it is one of the biggest reasons why not many women go into IT. Ms. Fiorina does not fit into the stereo typical image of IT person, but I look at her as a businesswoman (good sharp one, of course) not as an IT person; many others, I'm guessing, view her as a businesswoman as well. So the image of IT industry (mostly geeky looking pale extra thin or chubby men) hasn't really changed much. Hmmm... yet another reason why we have to think about what Mr. B. G. is doing to the whole IT industry.

Re:Image of the IT industry by mesocyclone · 2003-01-12 08:14 · Score: 5, Interesting

There are significant statistical cognitive differences between males and females, as my daughter, a neuroscientists, would be glad to tell you.

But there always exceptions, which is why arguing by anecdote is dangerous. For example, my mother was a math major and was chosen in WW-II to be quick-trained as an engineer (they took the top 100 female mathematicians in the country for this), and then worked as an electrical engineer. After the war and her children were into high school, she took a traditional female role as a teacher - math, of course. My daughter taught herself calculus (and received full credit for it, btw) when she was in junior high school. One of the earliest and most well known programmers and inventor (or early promoter - I don't remember which) was Grace Hopper. I work with a female software engineer who also has a bachelors and masters in electrical engineering, have worked with many women programmers over the years.

But... on average, women and men choose different fields partly because of different *average* inherited aptitudes for them.

--
The only good weather is bad weather.

Look at the author's agenda ... by monique · 2003-01-12 05:12 · Score: 1, Interesting

The author also wrote a book on why single-sex education is good ... and it shows.

I have serious reservations about gender-oriented education. I'm female, and I *don't* fit in with the averages. I *was* outspoken in my classes, and I *did* major in CS. I didn't even know what "programming" was when I took intro to CS, but after the first assignment, I was hooked.

In this article, they talk about trying to change the CS curriculum to involve fewer "girl-unfriendly" elements.

From the article:
"The environment isn't girl-friendly. Intelligent, creative girls want to do larger-scale programs that actually do something. They don't want to look at a logarithm that deals with a math thing and how we're going to apply it. They don't like puzzle problems -- or they don't exclusively, and yet that's a lot of what the Advanced Placement test is about."

Give me a break. If someone doesn't enjoy or do well at puzzle problems, how on earth are they going to turn customer requirements into a working product? Maybe there's a reason the AP test focuses on these things?

And sure, I don't remember a lot of the math I learned in college now, but understanding the foundation for algorithms, why this one is faster than that one, etc. when you're learning them is pretty damn important.

If these people had their way and the educational world were divided into girl sections and boy sections, misfits like me would definitely lose out. Maybe instead of trying to separate kids because the girls (on average) won't speak up in a class with boys, we should *gasp* look at the root causes -- the socialization that goes on in the home and on the streets.

I saw a little girl the other day, maybe 2.5 or 3 years old, with her mom in the store. They were looking at some themed candy -- different cartoon characters decorated the containers. The girl picks the Batman candy, and mom puts it back. "Batman's not for girls, honey. Why don't you pick something more appropriate? How about Tweety? You like Tweety?"

Until parents learn not to put predispositions in the minds of their kids (girls, don't do math or contact sports, the boys won't like you; boys, be tough and never show the hurt, or you'll look like a fairy), there will be uneven numbers in the different disciplines. That's just the way it goes.

On a side note, and I may be totally off-base, but I wonder if anyone does studies on how many young men major in english lit and education?

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-monique

heh by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-12 05:17 · Score: 2, Interesting

Interesting stats: in my CS department there are more gay men than there are women total.

News flash: NOBODY going into CS, now. by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-12 05:19 · Score: 2, Interesting

Enrollment in CS at my campus is in the dumper this year. All the people who thought they were going to make a ton of money because they can squeak through a CS program have gotten the word that there's no jobs in IT anymore. About a third of our Freshmen/Sophomore students jumped ship, mostly to Bio and Psychology. Upper levels have seen similar attrition, though the CSAB accredited program (where all the REAL CS students go) is still going strong (1 person out of 40 enrolled left in the last two years).

We did have a number of female CS students, in the low 20s (percentage). They've thinned out in the last year, I'm not sure what the ratio is now, but I think there are less than 10 female students (full time), so it's around 3%.

My experience by ShatteredDream · 2003-01-12 05:19 · Score: 2, Interesting

I'm a second semester sophomore CS major and this is what I've seen thus far.

The majority of the girls in CS that I've come into contact with fall into one of three groups: those that could be good but are too self-deprecating to push themselves, those that think they're hot shit but aren't and those that cheat and just suck. I've only known one true "computer geek girl" and she wasn't a CS major.

At my university you have to have an overall 3.0 GPA in your freshman CS classes to be guaranteed to be allowed to declare your major and register for sophomore classes. In my last freshman class, I was probably the best one in there and the professor had no problems hinting that he felt so at times. I wasn't the teacher's pet, he demanded more of me than the other students. I noticed that only one of the girls would talk to me, the rest acted like I was an asshole or something. I'm not the stereotype of a geek. I dress like a cross between a prep and a skater, am built a bit like a football player and tend to not act like a geek in general public. So here I am, scratching my head about why this is and I realized something.

My theory goes something like this. In school, before college, girls are given a lot more attention than boys because of "past discrimination." It doesn't matter of course that we've moved past that point. Girls do really well because they push themselves and beat all the guys who don't take their math and science classes seriously and as a result they think that they're hot shit. When the girls get to college and do math and science, lo and behold, they're surrounded by mostly geeks and nerds. Yeah, the guys who do take math, science, hell practically every other remotely interesting study, seriously. For the first time, they're surrounded by a lot of guys who are good, know it, and can best them everytime.

It would not be an exaggeration to say that none of the girls in our CS program could match the best guys, regardless of which CS chic you picked. A large part of the problem is that the girls tend to not be adventurous. Here I am, downloading the D compiler to see what it's like. I'll probably never use it for more than a few code samples on my website, but it's another language I can get familiar with. All of the girls I know, know only 2, maybe 3 languages: C++ and Java and some, VB. I have a solid grasp of C++, Java, PHP, C# and a decent understanding of VB and Python. I'm at the point where I can often figure out a language's syntax just by looking at sample code, unlike the average girl in our CS program. I can read Pascal and little bit of ASM, and I've never formally tried either.

It's my experience that "geek girls" don't make good girlfriends. There are exceptions, but most of the ones I've met are too neurotic and immature to make good girlfriends. The drive to have a geek chic seems to be the reason why this topic keeps getting posted. I've come to the point where I've realized that geeks are generally a waste of time. Stop actively trying to recruit girls because it's a waste of time. Coding isn't for most people, regardless of gender and you're only doing a disservice to them and making yourselves look desparate. You think they don't know the real reason why most guys want a larger female population in CS?

If you want to have a chance to encourage them, make HS more like college. Stop babying them in HS and push them no harder than the guys. I saw too much of that at my HS. I was frequently insulted by a math teacher who would bend over backwards to help the girls, but who looked at me like I was a bumbling idiot when I asked a simple question. Which amused me then and still does. My GPA was about .5-1.0 points higher than most of the girls she was talking to and I ended up outscoring most of the girls on AP tests. Her darlings usually had around a 900-1000 on the SAT, I had a 1270 and a 1390 on the SATII (760 American History). I got a 5 on the US history and US government tests, a 3 on the comparative politics (class wasn't even offered at our school and everyone in the surrounding region who tried, got a 1 and I had only 1.5 months to read the entire textbook) and 3s on both English tests. I graduated with a 3.8 weighted GPA (only 5 weighted classes at our school). So no, I'm not bitter, I'm very much amused by how stupid the female cheauvinists are.

This topic is just another way for most guys here to say "how can we enlarge our dating pool." Here's my suggestion, pick up a musical instrument and start hanging around the music crowd. I've found that I have more in common with musically-oriented girls than computer geek girls.

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Click here or a puppy gets stomped!

Re:My experience by chialea · 2003-01-12 09:04 · Score: 3, Interesting

Look, people are individuals.

1. there may be some good reason they're avoiding you. maybe you smell. I don't know you, so I don't know.

2. coding is not CS. it's a useful tool, but I've found math to be much more useful. I know somewhere around 7 languages pretty well, but I don't use them, generally, becasue I do math. Yet I'm in CS! Oh my! Something must be wrong here! And it's not very unusual to be able to superficially pick up similar languages from observation, hate to burst your bubble.

3. women are differnt from each other, as are geek women. The guys I've dated had no complaints. I also think you're doing the other people around here a disservice in assuming they're recruiting becasue they want dates. Striving for equal rights and encouragement is often an altruistic pursuit. Don't ascribe one person's motives to everyone. Ans as for your comment about music people, that's rather common. In fact, at Berkeley, most of the Wind Ensemble is made up of engineers.

4. some teachers suck. it happens. If you want to swap horror stories, I'll do so, but I'd like to point out that I know some that are a lot worse that have happened to women of my acquantance. I've found it varies a lot by school district.

5. don't flaunt your scores if you're trying to prove that other people are dumb. Really. I got higher scores than you did, quite signifigantly higher in many cases, and I know that that says just about zilch about my intellegence -- the SAT's are justly deprecated. The AP's tend to be better, but vary widely between subjects. (and while I'm on the subject, the GRE's are pretty silly as well)

Just becasue the women that you know don't point out that they're smart, doesn't mean they aren't. Perhaps you haven't met smart ones -- since there's a smaller pool, it's a bit restrictive. I would simply be very, very careful about assuming women are not as intellegent or as educated as you belive yourself to be. I personally know quite a few very intellegent women in CS. I have been doing rather well for myself as well, thus far.

As for your statement that "for the first time, they're surrounded by a lot of guys who are good, know it, and can best them everytime," it's been my experience that a lot of guys have this issue. I certainly met a lot who expressed these sorts of anxieties, and when you go to grad school, at least at CMU, they point out to you that it's normal.

Feel free to email me if you'd like to discuss this further.

Lea

Re:Its the damn calculus by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-12 05:44 · Score: 1, Interesting

What do you think computers are but mathematics-in-a-box? Mathematics is the science of patterns and that's all any program is. A set of patterns.

I like math AND computer science because of their extremely close relationship. There's no ambiguity; both stick strictly to logic. Both work in a building block manner. Both are problem solving intensive. Both give me that feeling of awe when I solve one of those problems, especially if it was done creatively.

The problem I have seen with a lot of people is they view mathematics as a set of rules to memorize for some random symbols given to them. I don't know if this way of thinking is the only way they know how to perceive mathematics or if it's that they just don't care enough to go beyond that (ie. "I just want my grade for the class"... anything beyond that doesn't matter to them).

I guess it's the same reason why I hate literature: I view it as simply a bunch of reading I have to do (ie. "I just want my grade for the class"... anything beyond that doesn't matter) rather than taking the time to appreciate everything behind it. I just don't have any interest in investing my time that way, even though I realize I'm probably missing out on some good stuff.

Re:And this is a bad thing how? by catscan2000 · 2003-01-12 06:22 · Score: 2, Interesting

I agree :-). Funny thing is that most straight IT guys I know are fat and ugly while the gay IT guys are generally cute and slender, though certainly not in all cases. My partner always jokes at my profession since he expects that I'll get fat and start speaking techno-speak all day like the IT department where he works, but I'm not going to allow that doomed fate to happen to me ;-)!

Arrrrgh by Athena1101 · 2003-01-12 07:07 · Score: 4, Interesting

A lot of this discussion is extremely frustrating. There are so many stereotypes ("Girls aren't as good at math..." "They don't like computers anyway..." "They're just NOT INTERESTED") that are the precise reason that the ratios are so low. How do you know? How many women have you talked to that fit these stereotypes? And have you ever thought *why* some might not be interested? I never owned a set of Legos or an Erector Set as a kid -- plenty of Barbies, though. Computer classes at my high school taught word processing and spreadsheets (at an all-female school... clearly teaching us all we ever needed to know in our future careers as... secretaries?). I'm currently arguing with them right now about updating our technology AND math and science curricula after they drastically cut back on them, thereby screwing over anyone who had any desire of entering such fields in college. It's not encouraged at all. The only reason I'm in ECE (with a CS concentration) right now is because practically by accident my high school ended up with a FIRST robotics team and I fell in love with the programming and wiring. Without it, despite my ability and interest in computers, I probably would have ended up a humanities major just because it never would have occurred to me that engineering or CS was something I was really interested in.

And don't make assumptions on what women do or do not want. I am perfectly willing to stay up all night coding surviving only on caffeine. I buy clothing based on whether or not I can carry my Leatherman in a pocket. I have attended many a Warcraft III LAN party with my boyfriend and his roommates. I build my own computers, run Linux, and for God's sake, I read Slashdot. ('Nuff said..) And I'm not unique -- I got to Olin College of Engineering, which has a 50-50 male to female ratio, and there are plenty of chicks there just like me.

Just keep in mind that it's very much a matter of exposure. For example, one girl in my class had never had any programming experience and only went into engineering on a whim, but loved our first CS class so much she soon after taught herself Perl in order to keep the college Quote Board organized. Another girl who had been considering journalism instead of engineering went crazy with her first introduction to CAD modelling and power tools. It's just that so many of the girls there had never seen any of this before, didn't realize it was out there, and only by some fortunate chance ended up finding it in college.

But please don't assume that women aren't interested. Think of it instead is that a lot of them just don't know what they're missing.

Re:I can assure you by destine · 2003-01-12 07:11 · Score: 5, Interesting

I am one of those ultra-rare cases. ;) Life is interesting. Out of 40 people at my previous job with a programming consulting company I could count the number of women there on one hand. One was the secretary, one was an accountant, one was in marketing and web design, one was our tester, and the last was a programmer. It's a bit alarming transitioning from male to female in a workforce dominated so completely by men. I watched, my friends position in the company and how she dealt with things and it came down to that she really had to be forceful to get anyone to listen to her. And she was good.

Most of my girlfriends just would rather not be thought of as geeks even with the positive meaning it now has. It would be incredibly hard to put into words what I've observed since starting my transition, but it is incredibly interesting. I wouldn't have ever actually believed it if I hand't lived it.

A lot of what I'm having to do is start over. Currently where I live, the computer job market has completely fallen apart. I just hope my future in computers isn't dictated so much by my gender.

And for the sarcastic person who remarked on how "hard" it was to tell the difference between a transsexual and a born woman on site, take it from me, it's not always as easy as you would think. I've never been clocked. ;)

Fair assessment by SideshowBob · 2003-01-12 07:33 · Score: 5, Interesting

I'd have to agree with you. While it's been over a decade since I graduated with my degree in CompSci, even then the majority of my classmates didn't belong in that degree program.

At my Uni. (at that time anyways) the business school offered a degree in Information Systems Management that would have been far more appropriate for most of the CS students.

More schools should offer MIS undergrad degrees (if they don't already, I really have no idea) and they should be promoted as credible alternatives to CS degrees for students that want to pursue careers in IT rather than 'pure' CS.

(I may be coming off sounding elitist here and I really don't mean to.. I think IT is a perfectly valid career path and universities should be adequately preparing students for that. Simply put, the knowledge and skills needed to design and manage a database system (or whatever) are a lot different than the skills and knowledge needed to write the database software itself)

Re:Fair assessment by RickHunter · 2003-01-12 08:09 · Score: 3, Interesting

An excellent point, and probably one I should've considered. A lot of the co-op jobs (basically an internship, for those who don't know) offered at my university weren't programming jobs. Most were tech support or IT (management) jobs, which the CS department offered no training for.

Of course, this is completely apart from the issue of whether or not CS should be doing this at all. The idea of universities being for "job trainign" is a bad one, and the idea that CS is "programming job training" is even worse. That's part of most CS programs, but most don't do a very good job of it. IMHO, CS needs to be separated out from Software Engineering, too.

Re:Yes, they are different by Planesdragon · 2003-01-12 07:56 · Score: 3, Interesting

And just to pick apart that "concentrating on a single thing for long periods of time," I have just one word: mother.

Mother's don't. Actually, mothers have to multitask to w+n+c, where "w" is their job, "n" is the ammount of housework that they do, and "c" is the number of their children under the age of 30.

While the "in-depth" crack was a load of bullocks, it is true that women multitask far better than men--and that men "focus" equally better than women.

Of course, the REAL reason why CS doesn't appeal to women is that it's a boy's club. The tools, methidology, culture, and framework are all designed by rather cloistered geeks for their own use in putting out a rather arcane end product.

Plus, it's a psedudo-mechanical thing, and there aren't that many women auto mechanics, either.

Re:Its the damn calculus by chialea · 2003-01-12 08:29 · Score: 3, Interesting

Computer science is heavily math-based. Especially what I do. I'm female, btw, and I'm doing quite well, thank you. Have you not met any women, that you must rely on what you hear from others, and what you can determine to be likely inaccurate from the links in this story? Mathematical rigor seems quite necessary in most branches of computer-based work, though most of my experience has been in research.

Software engineering, on the other hand, is not. Perhaps there wasn't a separate major for it, where you went. Still, math is helpful to teach you logic and new ways of thinking. Discrete mathematics and formal logic might have been more helpful, but calculus is generally introduced before those topics, for whatever reason.

Lea

Who see's X's not in profession Y's as np?? by gte910h · 2003-01-12 09:08 · Score: 3, Interesting

I don't see why women NEED to be in CS jobs. I know it makes it a little harder to get a date, but other than that, who cares if women as a group go into CS? I don't hear the fashion industry decrying the lack of men? Or the press?

As for anyone, if you'd like the flexability to go into any carrer, you need to be able to both handle sci/math issues and empathic/literatry fields. If many women don't strive to get the math/sci backgroud, then they won't have as much flexability. I see many men who do the exact opposite in shorting themselves in the empathy/literary vein. They couldn't write a understandable document to save their life, and they can't empathize what their co-workers are feeling.

I personally will try to get all my children to excel in BOTH areas. But if they don't I'll point out what flexability that they are loosing and be done with it.

--
Want to see every step I took to start my company? http://www.rowdylabs.com/blogs/pitchtothegods

From a Female Computer Engineering Student by ImACucumber · 2003-01-12 11:14 · Score: 2, Interesting

I'm currently a senior computer engineering student and will be graduating in May. My major is best described as half electrical engineering and half computer science. It is true that in my school's computer science department that there is many more males than females. In a course of approximately 35 people there are usually four or five females other than myself.

However, CS is in much better shape than computer engineering in this respect. In my electrical classes there have been many times I have been either the only female or one of two females in the class.

Why is this? I really have no idea. Personally have been interested in computers and their design for a long time. It seems that most females are no so interested in the design process. The only engineering major that actually has close to 50/50 male/female ratio is chemical. And for anybody that says that the girls have a good shot and finding dates if they are in CS or CPE all I have to say is the odds may be good, but the goods are odd.

Re:I can assure you by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-12 15:45 · Score: 1, Interesting

Look, I think what it comes down to is that for 20-30 years men have been ridiculed by women for being into computers. It's uncool and nerdy. Then when the industry took off and become one of the best paying sectors to work in suddenly the women are bitching that there aren't enough women in the field? While you chicks were off braiding your hair and playing with barbies we were programming and building systems. Don't give us shit because you're falling behind.

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