Maine School & Linux

Computer lab or vocational education? by gentlewizard · 2003-01-19 05:13 · Score: 4, Interesting

Most middle school and high school "computer labs" seem to be oriented around the business department vocational education model. That is, they teach people how to keyboard quickly, use office productivity apps, maybe even edit a web page or develop a PowerPoint presentation.

Using Linux in the computer lab is closer IMHO to a real computer science lab like at the university level, where one learns how computers work.

It all depends on your intent. If the intent is to teach business apps, Windows is the right choice because that's what businesses use. But Linux offers a richer environment for understanding computer principles.

Re:Computer lab or vocational education? by starseeker · 2003-01-19 09:13 · Score: 2, Interesting

"If the intent is to teach business apps, Windows is the right choice because that's what businesses use."

No, no, NO! That's exactly what any good middle or high school (or liberal arts college for that matter) should NOT do. That is the single biggest reason Microsoft has a monopoly. Training on specific apps makes for inflexible users. They should have a class which exposes people to as many platforms as they possibly can, and make people learn basic operations on all of them. Then teach basic word processing and spreadsheets, also making them do basic stuff on all of them. Teach the concepts, then make people learn the different implimentations. That way, when they see another one at work, they will adapt quickly. After a certain point a person learns how the logic of most computer interfaces works, and can figure out new variations fairly quickly. THAT is what schools should be teaching. Businesses can do specific training on applications/macros/whatever that the specific job uses, and people will be fast and flexible at it once they know how to learn new computer apps.

Sorry about the rant, but that's a pet annoyance of mine.

--
"I object to doing things that computers can do." -- Olin Shivers, lispers.org
Re:Computer lab or vocational education? by fucksl4shd0t · 2003-01-19 09:36 · Score: 2, Interesting

Yup. Kids (and young adults) pick up new things much more quickly, like languages or interfaces. A well-designed interface or program should be easy for the average adult to learn - not just geeks and kids. Kids also have less of a problem asking adults for help. Adults don't like to feel stupid, and trying to use Linux makes most people feel stupid.
Ok, you shot down my point about the 4-year-old, so I'll mention the wife that only knows (knew) how to use IE, Word, and a smattering of other windows apps. Now she prefers GNU/LInux, and one reason she prefers it has to do with my next point...
Windows operates under the assumption that the user *is* an idiot, and it treats them accordingly. Between all the stupid "Ok" dialogs and "Are you sure?" and Clippy, Windows does an excellent job of getting across the point that "you aren't smart enough to use a computer, so I have to hold your hand like a little kid crossing the street." So the users are told constantly by the interface that they're too stupid to use this OS, and sooner or later they even believe it. Contrast to GNU/Linux, which actually does treat you with a bit of respect (most of the time, but it certainly has its moments), when people use it they feel like they know what they're doing. This can be a bad thing, I know. The point is that rather than beat up on the user, GNU/Linux builds up the user, and they get more and more willing to try different things.
It seems strange to me to talk about how a computer treats its user, but that is the guts of the matter, isn't it? Microsoft has demonstrated a superiority complex along with a driving need to rule the world, whereas Free Software developers have demonstrated a willingness to help people and make peoples' lives better both en masse and individually. The respective interfaces reflect these basic drives by the respective developers. What does an average person prefer from a friend? Someone who treats them with respect, a bit of deference, and allows them the freedom to do as they wish? Or would they rather have Bill Gates as a friend? :)
Add to this the knowledge that adults tend to be more set in their ways, and are less likely to try (or stick with) new things, in favor of what's old and comfortable... and it seems clear that Linux has to do several things before it can be adopted by the masses. One of those things is, most likely, a better (perceived) compatibility with Windows.
I can agree that there's more that GNU/Linux can do to help the masses to look upon it favorably, but IMHO, it's ready for the masses. At least, Mandrake LInux 9.0 is, I'm sure I don't want the masses to have their first experience with Gentoo. I also agree that people in general prefer not to change from their old, nasty habits. I still smoke cigarettes, for example. I'm certainly not on a high horse about not resisting change. OTOH, I have benefitted personally by adopting technology (starting with CDs, moving on to mp3s and so forth) that really benefits me in a direct, personal fashion. My own experience is that GNU/Linux benefits me in a direct, personal fashion, and it adds pleasure to my life. Windows removed pleasure from my life and replaced it with more negative emotions best left unmentioned. My own anecdotal story is hardly evidence to support a revolution, though. :)
When it comes down to it, KDE (not sure about Gnome) is easy for the average adult to learn. IN fact, in many ways it acts the way people expect it to act, ways in which windows doesn't (single-clicking vs double-clicking). The catch is, this isn't exactly true since people have learned the windows ass-backwards way already. When it comes to troubleshooting driver problems and so forth, Windows errs on the part of thinking the user is too stupid, whereas GNU/Linux errs on the part of expecting the user to know more than they do. In both cases, I find it difficult to fix driver problems. It's the same, I've found, in most of the administration tasks on each OS. But I've also found that after you get past the steep learning curve of GNU/Linux, you can fix things faster and more efficiently than you can ever achieve with Windows.
When it comes to administering a machine, whether its a home machine or a work machine, or the one you use at school, it amounts to having two choices. You can try to fix it yourself, or you can get someone who knows what they're doing to fix it. (The third choice is irrelevant, because it means offloading the problem onto someone else who will then be faced with the same two choices) Your average idiot will get someone who knows what they're doing to fix it, and it makes no difference if it's their home machine or their work machine or whatever. Your average techie (or wanna-be techie) will try to fix it themselves, and if they fail they'll look for help. In either case, someone who knows what they're doing gets involved eventually anyway. I've *never* seen your average idiot (to whom Windows is targetted) fix their broken computer by themselves. That doesn't mean it hasn't happened, but I've never seen it. :)

--
Like what I said? You might like my music

Cloning by JohnFluxx · 2003-01-19 05:14 · Score: 4, Interesting

"Having purchased 20 new, identical computers, it made sense to completely configure one machine and then clone the hard drive to the other 19 computers. However, Microsoft's EULA prevents a user from doing this, even if they have 20 copies of Windows."

Surely this isn't correct... is it?
Not even MS would do this - it makes no sense.

Re:Cloning by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-19 05:42 · Score: 1, Interesting

Every large PC deployment I've done for a client, the new machines have been covered by a preexisting Windows site license. Yet every time, the new machines arrive with a Windows license sticker/code affixed to them. Essentially, my clients are paying for Windows TWICE on pretty much every machine they have. If Microsoft thinks they're going to tell us how we can or can't prep machines for which TWO legitimate Windows licenses exist, they can go fuck themselves gently with a running chainsaw.

I doubt the veracity of this EULA claim, though... surely if it were true, Microsoft would find some way to twist the DMCA around and stop Symantec from distributing Ghost due to it being a "circumvention device".

Maine & Linux by DigitalVolume · 2003-01-19 05:16 · Score: 3, Interesting

I'd like to see these schools get adequate support. I know that a few Linux distros are supported by their teams, but what happens in a core dump? What will Mrs. Teacher do when she drops back to a command line? What commands does she throw?

Without proper training, this is bound to fail. I know all of the public schools in the state of Maine have iBooks for their 7th and 8th graders. It's been given quite a bit of praise under that program. While I'd LOVE to see Linux make it here, I don't think that it's ready yet.

My $0.02

--
Chris Giddings President, Ripple LLC

More interesting story than I had expected by bafu · 2003-01-19 05:17 · Score: 4, Interesting

That was a pretty bold move considering his previous experience was very light on Linux. I found the bit about the common questions he was asked particularly interesting. I'm used to the assumptions about Windows and Linux that exist in an IT environment, but hadn't considered that education IT had it's own set of Linux/Windows shibboleths... ;-)

Hm... speaking of shibboleths, I wonder how many posts it will take before someone seriously handwrings about it being a "Christian" academy adopting Linux... ;-)

Kids and computers by Boss,+Pointy+Haired · 2003-01-19 05:20 · Score: 4, Interesting

In 15-20 years time, Tech Support at companies is going to be SOOOO much easier.

Currently, there are old farts that work at our place that take about 20 minutes to position the mouse cursor over the appropriate widget, and another 4 minutes to pluck up the courage to actually click on it.

Last weekend I watched my 4 year old nephew as he fired up a PC, quickly and confidently navigated the START menu to his games folder, loaded a football game, and equally quickly and confidently maximimsed the window etc. What made it more interesting was that I then showed him Microsoft Paint. This was the first time he'd seen the program - but he immediately went for the Maximise button to make the application fill the screen.

This means that he'd learnt the concept of the Maximise button - i.e. his understanding was deeper than simply pressing it as part of the start-up procedure of playing his football game.

I guess I may just be underestimating the abilities of 4 year olds, but I tell you, when this generation leave school and get jobs tech support will be a thing of the past...

Re:Kids and computers by dev_sda · 2003-01-19 05:41 · Score: 2, Interesting

guess I may just be underestimating the abilities of 4 year olds, but I tell you, when this generation leave school and get jobs tech support will be a thing of the past...

Really? You say that because a four year old is displaying pattern recognition and functionality association? That strikes me as being extemely similar to seeing a four year old accurately insert shaped blocks into appropriately shaped holes on the first try and saying, "Welp, aint gonna need any carpenters when this generation grows up."

Seriously, IT is about providing computer maintenance services for an enterpise that can't afford to have its staff sidetracked fixing their own computer problems. When you hire an individual to maintain your computer systems, what you are really buying is more productivity time for your employees.

This linux in schools idea has a definite chance and the doubters who suggest that linux is ready for 'the real world,' as neat as it is, forget that these kids when they're done with their computer classes will not fear a command line, and will indeed have abstract computer knowledge that passes between OSs.

Of course we'll see if Microsoft raises some sort of challenge to this as they hate losing school customers.

Yup by ucblockhead · 2003-01-19 05:22 · Score: 4, Interesting

An OS like Linux is far better for teaching about the guts of software because everything is exposed. And I'm not just talking about "the source". On a Linux box, you can go look at things like startup scripts and installed drivers, while on Windows, such things are (mostly) hidden.

Windows does its damndest to prevent users from accidently encountering any confusing internals. Good, I suppose, for someone who doesn't care, but lousy if you are trying to teach those internals.

--
The cake is a pie

maybe, but there is still something missing by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-19 05:29 · Score: 0, Interesting

Every year, like Windows, Linux bloats more and more, and a faster and faster computer is required to do the same task at a usable speed. Older computers (such as those under 500mhz) should still be able to do these kinds of everyday-tasks just fine, but run Linux and WinXP like a dog (don't give me that custom-compiling stuff, it's too hard & time-wasting for mere mortals).
Microsoft is in a position where they try to bloat software to cause constant devaluation of older computer hardware, because then hardware has a far more limited lifetime in which it is useful to run the required software, thereby forcing people to buy new computers thus giving M$ more money for a new Windows licence.
The powers that be in Linux are ubergeeks who speed way too much money on hardware, and since their motivations are ~98% totally self-centred, they make software with nothing less than the performance of their own urber ghz system in mind.
Considering how much hardware costs, and that a Pentium 90 with 16mb of ram _should_ be able to do just fine _everything_ the _average_ person uses a computer for, the real cause of $cost$ is not centred in licencing fees, but the continuing bloating of software. If software was _efficiant_, then those of us who aren't graphics designers or ubergamers would only need to buy a new computer every 8 to 12 years.
Attitudes of developers towards the development process are the problem which causes the most $costs$, not licencing fees.

Which is going to cost more:
Buying a new computer every 2.5 years with a $150 operating-system licence, or
Buying a new computer every 8 years with a $150 licence.

Even if a copy of Linux only costs $2.00 per box, the speed of bloating of Linux is even faster than Windows, perhaps actually almost increasing the total costs despite figuring the cost of Windows into the total. I know that WinXP would be fast enough on the computer I've got now, but any copy of Linux I've cared to throw at it has been _dog_ slow. And I've got 512mb of ram in the thing.

Before you blame M$ for how much computing costs, please realise it is the whole mentality of hardware makers and software developers: M$ is only one of very many guilty parties, free software makers being guilty too.

Re:Great, and when they graduate with zero Windows by dkh · 2003-01-19 05:43 · Score: 2, Interesting

Thanks to the market many students have MS gear at home.

These kids will have linux experience.

Thanks to our former governor, many students have Macs.

While I'm not convinced the program was a good idea, I am very glad that they went with something non-MS.

Breadth of knowledge is important - the more exposure kids have to the differences between these systems the more likely it is that we will continue to see some diversity in operating systems. Moving between Aqua, X and Windows isn't much of a stretch, none of them will suffer in the market place for having exposure to these systems. Most will not delve into these machines any deeper then the UI. But they will know that there are choices.

Re:It's about time. by MadFarmAnimalz · 2003-01-19 05:51 · Score: 2, Interesting

QUOTE
The primary reason usually lies somewhere along the lines of 'but we have this database and our database guy doesn't know how to do anything but Access!' Sigh.
UNQUOTE

This I suspect is a chicken or the egg situation. It's all about user-base, which is why this story made slashdot, for example. The kids learning on linux today might grow up tomorrow to be 'the database guy who knows postgres'.

Also, there may be a more subtle reason why institutions keep older windows licenses active; annual depreciation is written off as expenses. I suppose if they canned the licenses, they'd a. lose this incentive b. have to write off what remained of the value of the licenses.

If indeed the amortization period of f.ex. win9[58] exceeds [85] years...

--
Blearf. Blearf, I say.

Re:terrible by Quino · 2003-01-19 05:53 · Score: 2, Interesting

I don't agree at all, but maybe I'm missing something ...

The basic functions of all of the programs you listed work similar enough in Linux that it won't make an iota of difference in 'preparation' for the 'real world' (back, forward buttons, reload buttons look and behave identically on IE and on Phoenix running on Linux, for example). VB I guess is the obvious exception, but I'm not sure how you can be so confident that VB won't be anything other than a historical footnote in 10 or 15 yrs. (or so morphed from what it is today) that again it doesn't matter -- this also applies to all applications btw.

I've seen people (Ma, and GF) just pick up AbiWord (never before been in anything other than a MS enviroment, mind you) and know how to change fonts, save and create a document, etc.

The difference will be in the minutiae of, let's say the exact layout of the options under 'Edit' -- which will change anyways as Windows and Windows applications evolve. I really don't think anything will be lost at all.

The advantage, IMHO, is that students with the interest/ability to dig deeper into what the computer is doing will be able to, unlike in a Windows enviroment where things are purposedly (and, again IMHO, unnecessarily) obscured, and the cash savings part of it are important too.

I say, hurrah for the school, someone there 'gets it' (IMHO!)

Re:terrible by rtm1 · 2003-01-19 05:58 · Score: 2, Interesting

Here in Canada we teach kids entirely in French on a regular basis, even though much of the country is English dominated. The kids emerge being fluent in both English and French. Everybody agrees that these kids are better equipped to be successful in the world.

Similarly, teaching kids Linux in school will likely result in kids being able to efficiently use both Linux and Windows upon graduation, since they will use Linux in school, and will probably learn how to use Windows elsewhere since it is so pervasive (home, friends place, etc). Besides, even if they don't pick up Windows while in school the skills they have from Linux will make the learning curve short and easy when the time comes.

There is more to computers than the 'fundamental' applications such as MS Word, Excel, VB and IE. If you restrict your teaching to those topics then you are doing you children a disservice by refusing to teach them how a computer works. We're not training tomorrows secretaries here, we're training tomorrows computer scientists.

--
"Belief means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzche, The Anti-Christ, 1889]

Re:Educational programs + wine by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-19 06:07 · Score: 2, Interesting

Funny you should bring this up.

This is the main problem I'm facing right now.
I am the technical guy on my kid's school board(8 people plus the principal).
This is a private k-8 school with about 300 students.

Linux completely makes sense for this school barring one thing. Educational software. Among other pieces they have Reader Rabbit(tm) and HyperStudio. Neither of which I have been able to emulate in Linux.

What we really need now is an organization to push the importance of having this software ported to Linux. As people start to realize that school's techonology budgets should go towards hardware instead of Microsoft licenses, Linux is becoming more and more important.

OpenOffice.org is perfect for an office suite, but these other eductional software pieces really need to be ported.

Many of these programs are DOS-based or even win32 + quicktime based(yuck). They are flashy noisy programs that younger kids really seem to like.

The use SDL would make a lot more sense as a foundation for educational software. Bill Kendrick's Tuxpaint is one example of a fun little program that is cross-platform using SDL.

If there's already an organization out there pushing Linux educational software, I haven't heard of it.
It doesn't have have to be free as in beer or speech, but It should be cross-platform from the get go.

Necessity is the mother of invention by squirmee · 2003-01-19 06:10 · Score: 2, Interesting

There's a lot of "innovation" of this sort going on in Maine, especially in northern Maine. In some schools the shop class takes on construction and remodeling responsibilities for the school building. There's really no choice in the matter, because that area of the state is dirt poor.

Re:Maine & Linux - from a Mainiac Tuxer by johnlcallaway · 2003-01-19 06:48 · Score: 4, Interesting

My girlfriend (yes ... even 40 year old L/Unix admins have real girlfriends) works as an admin assistant for the maintenance department of a local high school They use Windoze, and have more troubles than you can imagine. Now, to be fair, their admins are not the brightest pixels in the stream, but schools tend to not pay the most money, so they get what they pay for. Her boss has been waiting for a couple of weeks to get his 98 box fixed. From what I can tell, she knows more than the IT guys.

That said, I taught a Linux class to several people a couple of months ago. Maine recently began a program to distribute laptops to all 7th graders. Since most schools had Apple systems, they were at a loss on how to integrate them.

Enter Linux. In two days, I taught a group of Apple and Windows skilled folks Linux basics, stressing command line skills and how to use Google for support. I was blown away by how quickly they came up to speed. Since they already had basic computer skills, all they needed to do was learn a slightly different way to apply them. All but one were able to build Linux boxes with SAMBA and DHCP services that both the Apple and MS boxes could tap into. The one that couldn't refused to adapt and constantly whined about using the command line. (I know, almost all of this can be done with a GUI. But I wanted them to learn more than how to point, click, select the defaults.)

So, I say hogwash to this failing. Those that don't want to learn, won't, you can't change that. Those that are able to take knowledge and apply it to new ideas will flourish.

People that can learn and adapt will be the people most sought after in our society because they will move it forward.

--
I rarely read replies, it's my opinion and if you thought about your opinion a little more, I'm OK with that.

Re:Great, and when they graduate with zero Windows by liquidflare · 2003-01-19 08:27 · Score: 1, Interesting

Yup, I am a junior (17 years old) in hs and I'm taking the fourth semester of CCNA. I think bringing in the Cisco courses is the best move my city's school system has made. However, most students have dropped the class from year one to year two. Initially there were 25 taking the course, and as of now there are 3. I'm pretty sure these statistics are the same for the rest of my city.

19 of 414 comments (clear)