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Segway Banned In San Francisco
bhsurfer writes "The city of San Francisco has banned the Segway [CNN.com] from it's sidewalks before they've even arrived. Apparently Santa Cruz, Oakland and San Mateo are considering a ban as well. What a bunch of spoilsports...or are they? Any thoughts on this?" According to the article, hiring high-powered lobbyists may have backfired. but the city claims safety concerns are behind the decision.
I've never lived in any of the cities in question, but I know in Honolulu that tourists can rent mopeds, and they drive them on sidewalks everywhere. I would much rather see them on Segways. It might even keep them out of the roads, too.
With a top speed approaching 40mph (as reported on CNN this morning) those contraptions are definately NOT suitable for sidewalks and should be licensed as any other motorized transport.
IMHO
Segway, cool toy, but I just don't see what I would do with it. I can already go on my skateboard pretty damn fast. If I need to go faster I have a bike. If faster than that, my truck. Otherwise I'm walking. I don't get where it fits in, other than some lazy asses and maybe a heavy duty one for delivering mail along the boardwalk.
I'm not even sure that my kid thinks they're cool. I'll ask when I get home.
I've been run over/almost run over by more bicycles than I can count. I'm sure the granola crowd in SF loves the bicycle. These are safer than bikes because there is a maximum speed limit. for Segways.
Seems that the issue here at that the lobbyists forgot the golden rule of the campaign contributions. Bribery is legal. Use it.
In my town, motorized scooters and motorized anythings are banned on sidewalks and paths, no matter how slow they go. Even a motorized skateboard gets you a shaken finger from the local cop. Segway already falls into the banned category where I live.
Like Kamen said, they need to design cities around the thing. It doesn't fit the current model.
The first (in fact only) time I've ever seen a Segway was on the streets of San Francisco. I saw a Postal employee riding down the sidewalk with his USPS-branded saddlebags on the sides. I wonder if they have had bad experiences with Segway on their streets...
I thought one of the main thing about Segway is that it was supposed to be sooooo intuitive like walking? what's up with the multi-hour training?
besides that - does multi-hour mean 2 hours? or 5 hours? Worse yet - Non of the "mandated this many hours courses" I have ever attended lasted for the specific number of hourse.
Take, for example, in NY before you get a license you need a 5 hour (or somesuch) course. Not that I am complaining (that much) but the course ended after about three at a "DMV approved course center." - I say this because if the Segway was not as intuitive as they gloat, and a lenghty safty course was really necessary, then I'd fear of walking from now on - While bad drivers for the most part run into other cars, bad segway charioteers will mostly run into pedestrians.
My life in the land of the rising sun.
"we aren't blocking traffic, we are traffic"
how long before segway riders organize take-back-the-sidewalks rides?
annmariabell.com
foldplay your photos won't know what hit them.
i use a segway ht to go 7+ miles per day, i given up a car, saved over $10,000 and i've even lost 10lbs with my extra time that i have each day to do more things like (exercise) as opposed to sitting in traffic.
you can read about it here on my personal journal of owning a segway ht:
http://www.bookofseg.com
today i hit 100 miles, it took about 14 days of commuting to hit that, i didn't count other trips or previous commute trips so i could keep careful logs. for the first 100 miles or so, i personally saved about $582.00+ by using a segway ht, gave up a car and lost 10lbs. some things weren't quantifiable, results may vary for others.
http://www.bookofseg.com/100miles/
if you would like to chat about it, lemme know-- i'd love to!
cheers,
pt
In an area where one city has banned certain types of coffee beans, what'd you expect? They've been bending over for the minority for some time and it's only logical that they'll continue to do so.
/.ers, many of you helped elect these PC-nuts so don't act like you didn't see it coming. Get some reps with some common sense next time around!
I remember on 20/20 where they interviewed that Kamen guy they showed these pedestrian activist groups more or less claiming Kamen wanted to hurt old ladies. I was just screaming at the television "GET A LIFE!" to these nuts who all desperately needed either jobs or consciences (pedestrian activism???? I mean really, I don't want to get run over on the sidewalk either but that has to be the least important form of activism on the planet).
Bay Area
"New Hampshire-based Segway hired lobbying firms but has made no contributions to any public officials or candidates, said Matt Dailida, the company's director of state government affairs."
The problem apprarently was that Segway, LLC. failed to sufficiently bribe California city officials. Now they're going to have to dig deeper into those pockets to make up for the hurt feelings of city officials and overcome the entrenched pedestrian rights groups.
Yes, San Francisco banned this device. We have some very liberal board of supervisors running the city government here that defined the word 'bleeding heart.' Granted, some of the reasons for the ban aren't too bad, but some of them are very big brother.
The problem is that everyone is worried that the elderly walking down the sidewalk would be injured by one of these things.
There is also the whole pro-walking thing which lobbied pretty hard against it. They believe this device would cause everyone to get fat.
The price of the device didn't help its case either. Being a liberal city, a $4000 device is seen as a rich man's toy and rich men should be spending their money on social problems such as the homeless problem, not toys. This viewpoint is pretty common here unfortunately.
Bikes have been banned for quite some time on the sidewalk and for anyone who has biked down Market St. knows, it isn't particularly safe to be in the road either.
Rollerblades have also been banned on the sidewalk for some time. I've seen people try to go down the road on them and it isn't pretty given the general quality of the roads themselves.
Powered scooters are getting more and more common. They seem the safest of any one-person mode of transport simply because they can keep up with traffic. They are obviously banned on sidewalks, but have no real problems with the street from what I've seen.
Powered wheelchairs however have not been banned even though they seem to cause a whole lot more injury than anything else. That would hurt the disabled however, so it isn't even considered.
On the other hand, you have to realize that the sidewalks are litterly *packed* with people in many parts of the city. The segway would have caused problems simply because it is impossible to walk without bumping into someone.
The world is neither black nor white nor good nor evil, only many shades of CowboyNeal.
youre not supposed to ride bikes on sidewalks!
When I ride my bike in a downtown area where there are lots of cars parked on the side of the street, I get on the sidewalk and ride slowly.
The reason is that I can't rely on the drivers watching before they slam open a car door. Technically I'm not supposed to do it but I've had conversations with cops about it and they mostly agree that I'm better off on the sidewalk as long as I'm going slow. Same will probably be true for segway.
If you mod me down the terrorists will have won
California used to think it was ok enough:
Old Press Release
Personally, I don't think they should ban them, but instead regulate their usage and make owners responsible for their use just like they do with everything else.
There used to be a time when Britain was THE leading industrial country. But people got comfortable with that, old industrial interests got entrenched, and as a result they had laws in the end of the 19th century that prohibited automobiles from driving faster than 4mph, and a pedestrian with a red flag had to walk in front of every vehicle. Now it doesn't take too much thinking to see that a country that passes such laws can never last as a leading technological power.
I can just see the US going down the same road with its overregulation of everything.
When men used to be men
It's a phobic response pure and simple. It's irresponsible to ban an environmentally-friendly transportation vehicle without evidence it is a threat.
This is a motoized vehicle, and had absolutely no business on the sidewalk. If anywhere, it should be on the road, with rights/responsibilities somewhere between a bicycle and a motorcycle.
A sidewalk is for pedestrians, not bicycles, mopeds or anything else. Perhaps, roller skaters, but I think that's the extent of how mechanical a sidewalk dwelling vehicle should be.
I'm an avid cyclist (both competitive and recreational), and I know damn well that we cyclists have to fight tooth and nail for our right to the road and/or bike lanes. I cringe every time I see a cyclist on the sidewalk because it causes people to expect that cyclists will ride on the sidewalk, and this is just not right. We have a right to the road, and have fought very hard for what little bit of it we have.
Likewise, I shudder every time I see an avid runner in the bike lane. I guess they do it because they can't be bothered with the lame sidewalk.
Anyway, every vehicle has it's place in the transportation system. Pedestrians belong on the sidewalk. Bicycles have a right to the road, and the same responsibilities as any car or motorcycle. I think a Segway should fall into the same category as a bicycle; it should have a right to the road, but shouldn't be able to take the full lane unless necessary for safety, just like a bicycle.
"A terrorist is someone who has a bomb but doesn't have an air force." -William Blum
I'm watching this thread closely. I don't doubt for a minute that the PR firms that handle tech clients have seeded /. with paid posters. Segway is backed by famously deep pockets and would be a likely customer for a /. turfing.
Thus far, all the highly modded posts are quite rightly pointing out the existing laws and science of bicycle transportation. Let's see what the latter posts look like now that that the employees of Kamen's PR company are likely to be working late tonight.
This is a good place to start if you're looking for real studies of transportation safety.
Think about it;
This is a device that makes you taller, makes you physically bigger and can make other people move out of your way. I was watching the segway being used in a video promoting the segway and the thing that is most noticed is that people walking would automactically get out of the Segway's way. I have had enough of fucking SUV and the asshole driver bullying everyone else on the road. I dont want to see it happen on the sidewalk also.
Sigs are dangerous coy things
>Your attitude towards your fellow citizens
>is offensive in the least, and stupid besides.
My "attitude" towards my "fellow citizens" was formed by their insolent, childish, selfish, obnoxious behavior. If you have a problem with my "attitude" towards yuppies, try teaching the little fucktards a few basic lessons in civility. Namely:
* Pay attention to where the fuck you are on the road when you're driving your $70,000 petroleum chugging fume belching lane hogging pedestrian composter.
* Learn how to park. In a single space - not three.
* Learn how to use your turn signal. And how to turn it off.
* Learn that red lights mean, "stop."
* Turn off the ringer on your goddamn cell phone when you attend the movies or the symphony. Anybody who's earning $150,000 a year for "harnessing cutting edge models" or "branding granular e-business" or "utilizing magnetic schemas" or whatever the e-bullshit d'jour is in the tech sector ought to be able to figure out how to silence their $500 cell phone.
>Do you really think that "pasty yuppie asses" will
>be the ones to buy this thing - instead of (for example)
>postal workers, who are already testing it?
Well, considering it's a $5,000 tech gadget that performs essentially the same function that a bicycle, skateboard or roller-skates could perform for at least $4,500 less, yes I'd say "pasty yuppie asses" are exactly the crowd that will be buying this thing. Anybody who ever worked an honest day in their life would certainly blanch at the thought of blowing $5,000 on a toy that makes you look like a clueless dork, and turns you into a threat to 90-year-old grandmothers on their way to buy groceries. But based on prior experience (see above), I wouldn't expect selfish, self-absorbed yuppies to spend a single millisecond considering the welfare of others.
I could see the Segway being useful in an environment like a warehouse, but we weren't talking about banning them in warehouses, only on the sidewalks.
Regarding postal workers, they're already reporting they hate the things. As one of them put it, standing around on a Segway buzzing down the sidewalk at 12mph when the temperature is below freezing turns you into a giant popsicle on a stick real quick.
Lets apply the conservation of momentum to a situation involving a man walking toward another man of same mass going 15 mph on a segway (for this we'll neglect friction).
Vi1 = 2.235 m/s (5 mph)
M1 = 77.27 Kg (150 lbs)
Vi2 = 6.705 m/s (15 mph)
M2 = 100 Kg (220 lbs)
say at the end the segway with rider stops in its tracks and the man goes flying, and since the man is travelling toward the man we can say he's going -2.235 m/s.
Pi = Pf
M1(Vi1) + M2(Vi2) = M1(Vf1) + M2(Vf2)
(77.27 Kg)(-2.235 m/s) + (100 Kg)(6.705 m/s) = (77.27 Kg)(Vf1) + 0
Vf1 = 9.648 m/s or 21.583 mph.
ouch.
(sorry about repost forgot to put in my pw.)
Unfortunately, bike trails have turned out to have poor safety records. (Here are some pointers to related research.) The main problem is with intersections: try to figure out how to design a path alongide a road so that right-of-way is always clear, cyclists don't always have to stop (if you ask them to stop at every single driveway and intersection, they're just not going to), stoplight cycle times aren't significantly increased (think what'll happen if you try adding extra light phases for the bikes...), etc., etc. Lots of people have attempted this, in this country and elsewhere. The results are not encouraging.
So the moral is: no, as a cyclist, you really *are* better off riding on the city streets. Research has found this to be safest, it works great (I probably ride a couple thousand miles a year on city streets, and have never had a crash), it's fun once you get the hang of it, it gets you where you want to go extremely quickly.... Don't wait for a special bike ghetto before you start riding. Observe the standard traffic rules and be courteous, and you can ride your bike wherever you want right now.
--Bruce F.
Don't you think you're perception of what's going on is a bit narrow? The reason that cars are okay and Segways aren't is because they have roads for cars to drive on
You are confusing cause and effect. Cars use roads because roads were there before cars were invented. They were originally for pedestrians and horses, but as the popularity of cars increased, cars became the principal users, and in many places pedestrians and horses are no longer allowed to use the roads. Assuming Segways actually prove to be more than hype, perhaps they will become the principal users of sidewalks.
Sure, I couldn't imagine a Lamborgini mixing it up with city trafic...going 200mph or so...You know, its full speed, the only speed it's capable of...
Thanks for the offer...I am curious! (Probably won't make it to lovely Seattle again for some time though)
;-)
I find your experience believable, if not entirely germane. I've gone hundreds of miles on rollerblades with no problem either, but that doesn't mean they stop as well as a bike, let alone a car.
Essentially, if your upcoming halt in a Segway is not a sudden surprise, it makes sense it would stop very well...the mechanism will be able to read your body's cues, speed up the wheels to get them in front of your center of mass, and thereby eliminate the torque during your stop.
However, if you run the thing into, say, an unseen curb, I think you will endo. Or whatever you call it on a Segway. I've done just that twice on a bicycle with one endo (as a kid) and one non-endo (as an adult). So statistically that's what?....maybe a 50/50 endo probability with a 5% confidence level
Rollerblades, BTW, are weird to hit unseen obstacles in. The tiny wheels mean of course that they stop short on relatively small irregularities (let alone curbs). On the other hand, having two legs means that hitting something usually results in nothing more than an awkward stagger as you quickly lift the other leg and thrust it in front of you. I haven't fallen while skating forward in years (don't ask about backward, ow!).
Of course, none of this debate has much to do with whether they belong on sidewalks. Personally, I think they should be treated like bikes -- legally expected to ride the streets, but unoficially ignored if they take sidewalks at reasonably low speeds. (I always ride my bike on the street).
Spot on, unfortunately. Whilst Segway spent a lot on some very good lobbyists, they decided against political donations.
Now, there are all these stupid little local politicians deciding that the Segway is "unsafe". All the while, traffic congestion will continue to grown.
You know what? I think there's a grand opportunity for a bit of public disobedenience here... just ride the damn things on the sidewalk anyway.
-- james
One good thing though - since the Segways are bought by well-off people with a spare $5,000 to spend on scooter, the lawsuits will at least be worth it.
I happened to be last week at the Annual meeting of the Transportation Research Board in Washington DC. There was one session for the Segway. Kamen had an interesting presentation of the subject (he actually arrived to the session on Segway, all the way to the podium): As a medical device inventor et al., he was accustomed to a strict approval process of many years with testing etc. Not the case with Segway! There was no authority willing to take responsibility in advance.
I think there must be something in Segway, because it does not leave people cold: it is suprising why it opposed so fiercly, what are the people afraid of? It is an amazing device. If there is something in it, it will win; if not, it will die. Market will decide.
My biggest problem with Segway is that the creator has said that it would be used on the sidewalk. He also said the top speed was 12.5 mph. I don't want to get hit by someone going 12.5 mph walking, segwaying, skating, or riding a bike.
I wonder how long before two morons on segways talking on their cellphones ram into each other in a head-on collision at top speed.
At a minumum the company making them should prove how safe they are in a collision by having a couple executives ram each other. At top speed. Also they should show how safe they are for pedestrians by ramming a few executives while they stand on the sidewalk.
How long before someone posts some mods to get a segway going at 80mph?