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Segway Banned In San Francisco
bhsurfer writes "The city of San Francisco has banned the Segway [CNN.com] from it's sidewalks before they've even arrived. Apparently Santa Cruz, Oakland and San Mateo are considering a ban as well. What a bunch of spoilsports...or are they? Any thoughts on this?" According to the article, hiring high-powered lobbyists may have backfired. but the city claims safety concerns are behind the decision.
before they have any testing or real user experience on which to base their decisions.
I've never lived in any of the cities in question, but I know in Honolulu that tourists can rent mopeds, and they drive them on sidewalks everywhere. I would much rather see them on Segways. It might even keep them out of the roads, too.
Segway, cool toy, but I just don't see what I would do with it. I can already go on my skateboard pretty damn fast. If I need to go faster I have a bike. If faster than that, my truck. Otherwise I'm walking. I don't get where it fits in, other than some lazy asses and maybe a heavy duty one for delivering mail along the boardwalk.
I'm not even sure that my kid thinks they're cool. I'll ask when I get home.
The first (in fact only) time I've ever seen a Segway was on the streets of San Francisco. I saw a Postal employee riding down the sidewalk with his USPS-branded saddlebags on the sides. I wonder if they have had bad experiences with Segway on their streets...
I thought one of the main thing about Segway is that it was supposed to be sooooo intuitive like walking? what's up with the multi-hour training?
besides that - does multi-hour mean 2 hours? or 5 hours? Worse yet - Non of the "mandated this many hours courses" I have ever attended lasted for the specific number of hourse.
Take, for example, in NY before you get a license you need a 5 hour (or somesuch) course. Not that I am complaining (that much) but the course ended after about three at a "DMV approved course center." - I say this because if the Segway was not as intuitive as they gloat, and a lenghty safty course was really necessary, then I'd fear of walking from now on - While bad drivers for the most part run into other cars, bad segway charioteers will mostly run into pedestrians.
My life in the land of the rising sun.
Think of it this way: in ten years time, what will have more fatalities per machine on the road, the Segway or the car?
Judging from everything I've read about the Segway, it'll be the car, of course. So why don't they ban cars in San Francisco, too? Because use of cars is too widespread, and the public would be outraged if you tried to take them away.
If the Segway's all the hype suggests, then maybe in years hence the new machine will become as entrenched in daily life as the car (...assuming San Fran doesn't become a national trendsetter on the issue, and kill the Segway before it's given a chance). Until then you can expect this sort of thing. Just imagine how many people are going to worry about the first supersonic turbo-boostered flying rocket cars, you know?
youre not supposed to ride bikes on sidewalks! youre supposed to ride them in the street!
as for the segway, i think they should wait for it to be a problem before wasting their time banning it....i mean, how many of these things did they anticipate being on the sidewalks anyway?
Gentlemen...BEHOLD!
-Dr. Weird
The ones being sold to the public have an 8 mph limiting key. The industrial ones had a top speed of 15 mph but aren't meant for streets. The skate boarders and bicycles go faster than that on sidewalks. The are a potential hazard but so are many legal devices.
The Segways should have to adhere to the same rules that bikes do. Bikes aren't allowed on the sidewalk either. They have to follow many of the laws that cars do. This includes riding in the street, going with the flow of traffic. So, why can't the Segways use the bike lane (or curb area) too?
The Segway might be safer for the rider than a skateboard et. al., but it sure as shit isn't safer for the other people on the sidewalk. It's an extra 70lbs -- on top of who knows how much tofu- and sprout-fed mealy Californian -- moving at up to 15mph. Given how godawfully bad San Francisco drivers are, I shudder to think how many pedestrians would get plowed over by yuppie asshats with their new $8,000 toy.
I have no problem with keeping these things off our sidewalks, for the same reasons that I have no problem with bicycles being confined to the street.
'jfb
To spur "enterprise Linux," Big Bang, the distributed two-phase commit.
Pulled from the article on CNN...
Critics say the Segway is a safety hazard on sidewalks because it weighs 69 pounds and travels at up to 12.5 mph
12mph is a little different from the 40mph you were throwing around.
Here's a better column about the whole debate from the San Francisco Chronicle. Basically, you have a bunch of uptight people over there, over a technology that hasn't even been used by the public yet. Fortunately, other cities, like Sacramento, are waiting to see whether there are any problems caused first, before acting.
i use a segway ht to go 7+ miles per day, i given up a car, saved over $10,000 and i've even lost 10lbs with my extra time that i have each day to do more things like (exercise) as opposed to sitting in traffic.
you can read about it here on my personal journal of owning a segway ht:
http://www.bookofseg.com
today i hit 100 miles, it took about 14 days of commuting to hit that, i didn't count other trips or previous commute trips so i could keep careful logs. for the first 100 miles or so, i personally saved about $582.00+ by using a segway ht, gave up a car and lost 10lbs. some things weren't quantifiable, results may vary for others.
http://www.bookofseg.com/100miles/
if you would like to chat about it, lemme know-- i'd love to!
cheers,
pt
Ummm, my understanding is that the standard Segway goes 12 MPH max.
Is 30 MPH a number you have a reference for?
Bill Gates weighs 70 pounds and only goes 10 mph, and just look at all the damage he has caused!
I don't understand how the Segway, which weighs 69lbs can be safer than a skateboard, or rollerblades
Um, maybe because it has brakes?
Just junk food for thought...
In California, officials in Santa Cruz, Oakland and San Mateo are still waiting on additional payoffs, and are wary after the much publicized "payoff check is in the mail" campaign failed in San Francisco.
One official is quoted as saying, "Bring cash."
-- Dan
The postal carriers are ditching it also (and others who were expected to use it, like policeman, security, etc). A quote from a postal worker in this week's Business Week was "You can't keep warm if you're not walking. You end up frozen like popsicle on a stick." Not a ringing endorsement for those states that are chilly 9 months of the year.
Yes, San Francisco banned this device. We have some very liberal board of supervisors running the city government here that defined the word 'bleeding heart.' Granted, some of the reasons for the ban aren't too bad, but some of them are very big brother.
The problem is that everyone is worried that the elderly walking down the sidewalk would be injured by one of these things.
There is also the whole pro-walking thing which lobbied pretty hard against it. They believe this device would cause everyone to get fat.
The price of the device didn't help its case either. Being a liberal city, a $4000 device is seen as a rich man's toy and rich men should be spending their money on social problems such as the homeless problem, not toys. This viewpoint is pretty common here unfortunately.
Bikes have been banned for quite some time on the sidewalk and for anyone who has biked down Market St. knows, it isn't particularly safe to be in the road either.
Rollerblades have also been banned on the sidewalk for some time. I've seen people try to go down the road on them and it isn't pretty given the general quality of the roads themselves.
Powered scooters are getting more and more common. They seem the safest of any one-person mode of transport simply because they can keep up with traffic. They are obviously banned on sidewalks, but have no real problems with the street from what I've seen.
Powered wheelchairs however have not been banned even though they seem to cause a whole lot more injury than anything else. That would hurt the disabled however, so it isn't even considered.
On the other hand, you have to realize that the sidewalks are litterly *packed* with people in many parts of the city. The segway would have caused problems simply because it is impossible to walk without bumping into someone.
The world is neither black nor white nor good nor evil, only many shades of CowboyNeal.
youre not supposed to ride bikes on sidewalks!
When I ride my bike in a downtown area where there are lots of cars parked on the side of the street, I get on the sidewalk and ride slowly.
The reason is that I can't rely on the drivers watching before they slam open a car door. Technically I'm not supposed to do it but I've had conversations with cops about it and they mostly agree that I'm better off on the sidewalk as long as I'm going slow. Same will probably be true for segway.
If you mod me down the terrorists will have won
Hey asshole, here's a tidbit for you: we here in San Francisco don't give a flying handshake if lackwits from Ames, Iowa think Segways are safe. Respect the Federal system, and butt the fuck out.
This measure wasn't something the big, bad government imposed upon us. Local pedestrian and bicycle organizations got together to make sure that the state's insipid redefinition of "pedestrian" to include people on Segways wouldn't fly in this city.
And give you a hefty $70 fine. Bikes are treated as motorcycles from a law enforcment standpoint. They must abide by all the same laws. No sidewalks, no running red lights, must use turn signals etc. The reason you see so many people ON sidewalks with bikes is because police are typically lax on chasing them down in a lot of areas. But in high pedestrian traffic areas you will see lots of "bike cops" making sure bikers are on the road where they belong.
Human powered top speed: 80.6 mph
and after some quick calculations
60/((9.7*16)/60)
Human top speed on foot: 23 mph
12.5 mph doesn't seem so dangerous to me, it is about 3 times faster than I walk comfortably, and slightly faster than when i jog.
There used to be a time when Britain was THE leading industrial country. But people got comfortable with that, old industrial interests got entrenched, and as a result they had laws in the end of the 19th century that prohibited automobiles from driving faster than 4mph, and a pedestrian with a red flag had to walk in front of every vehicle. Now it doesn't take too much thinking to see that a country that passes such laws can never last as a leading technological power.
I can just see the US going down the same road with its overregulation of everything.
When men used to be men
It has different max-speeds (user choosen) which should allow it to drive in sidewalks (8mph sidewalk operation)
IMO banning all innovation for security sake isn't the way to go, REGULATING is.
Maneuvering method: dynamic stabilization--five solid-state, angular-rate-sensing gyroscopes and twin-tilt sensors monitor balance 100 times per second to help the HT compensate for the difference between the rider's body movements, varying terrain, and the direction of gravity
Motors: two (one per wheel) brushless, independent, 2-horsepower DC servo motors and helical gearboxes (24:1 gear ratio); this combination allows motors to spin at a higher, more efficient speed and provides smooth, quiet propulsion
Chassis: aluminum; withstands 7 tons of force
Carrying capacity: 250-pound user
Wheels: glass-reinforced thermoplastic
Tires: tubeless, enhanced-traction, puncture-resistant silica compound
Navigable terrain: pedestrian areas, including streets, sidewalks, grass areas, dirt roads, and hills
Turning radius: 0 (turns within its own footprint)
Maximum speeds: 6 mph (Beginner key), 8 mph (Sidewalk Operation key), 12.5 mph (Open Environment key)
Special mode: Power Assist, which allows powered movement over obstacles, stairs, and ramps when not riding
Platform height: 8 inches (20 cm)
User-controlled features: maximum speed, steering sensitivity, and handlebar height
Display: multicolor backlit LCD, shows battery charge and operating condition
Keys: three electronic, 64-bit encoded keys for Beginner, Sidewalk Operation, and Open Environment performance
Security: encoded keys
Safety: redundant systems
Footprint: 19 by 25 inches (48 by 64 cm)
Weight: 83 pounds (38 kg)
Battery type: two smart-charging, 60-cell NiMH packs
Battery range: 10 miles in good conditions on a single charge, 15 miles under optimal test conditions, and 5 miles average under strenuous conditions (continuous start-stop driving, use on inclines and grassy terrain, etc.)
Recharging method: conventional outlet plug-in, power cord included
I'm a chainsmokin' alcoholic sociopath, so-ci-o-path
Saw a Segway friday evening in Portland OR.
The operator was driving down the street at night.
No lights. No reflectors. Grey vehicle out in traffic and no helmet on operator.
I'd ban the damned things too.
Buddy of mine is a Dallas Police Officer and he told me that these suckers were basically banned months ago here in Dallas. Namely because they are a danger to pedestrians, 80 lbs piece of metal with a 150+ lbs person jamming down the street at 12+ mph makes for a pretty good accident waiting to happen. Personally I am glad they are banning these things, they are useless and will just make people lazy. If we need anything we need subways in all large cities, and people can just walk between stations, least it will get people off their ever growing butts for a while.
But you don't have to go that fast. Most cars have top speeds well in excess of 100mph...so does that mean we have to ban cars from the street? No. It means we put restrictions on speed, or 'Speed Limits'. Just let Segway users recieve tickets if caught speeding. Have a registration system so that the people couldn't get away with not paying. Anything. Just not an ignorant ban before any interesting injuries even have the possibility to occur.
We now have confirmed reports from an informed Orange County minister that Ethel is still an active communist.
My biggest question is where do you put them once you're finished travelling? With cars you park them, with bikes, you can lock them in bike racks, but there is zero infrastructure in place to secure your Segway.
What's the point in taking a Segway somewhere if you can't lock it down. This means you couldn't take it to go shopping, seeing a movie, go to the doctor's, go to class, etc. You might be able to take it to work and keep the Segway in your office... if you have space. That's about it... it doesn't have any other practical use.
I would prefer rollerblades to the Segway any day, since they are small and portable.
As far as I know it is illegal to drive a moped or scooter on most major US city sidewalks. They are considered street vehicles, so it is about the same as driving your car on the sidewalk. Maybe it is different in Hawaii. I would personally rather see no motorized vehicles on the sidewalks, hell bikes should even be there, sidewalks are for people and walking.
It's a phobic response pure and simple. It's irresponsible to ban an environmentally-friendly transportation vehicle without evidence it is a threat.
Yeah, no kidding. Frankly, I think that's the heart of the matter. The rest is just political rhetoric.
I'm no fan of the Segway. I think it's pretty stupid, and will never be anything more than a toy. But when I read about it being banned in San Francisco, one thought came to my mind -- "typical!"
Personally, I hate all the little punk speed freaks begging for money all over the city. But I don't propose banning skateboards, which I'm sure pose a greater threat to pedestrians.
This isn't as much "normalization" as it is "don't take so many drugs when you're designing tables."
No way. They are equally as dangerous as bikes, if not more so (Segways don't have brakes).
Bzzzt. Wrong.
While the Segway doesn't have traditional friction brakes, it does have regenerative braking ala the GM EV1. Essentially when you lean back to brake, the Segway puts the motors in reverse and turns them into generators. Otherwise there'd be not real way to stop a Segway.
The evil monkey commands you to dance.
I'm watching this thread closely. I don't doubt for a minute that the PR firms that handle tech clients have seeded /. with paid posters. Segway is backed by famously deep pockets and would be a likely customer for a /. turfing.
Thus far, all the highly modded posts are quite rightly pointing out the existing laws and science of bicycle transportation. Let's see what the latter posts look like now that that the employees of Kamen's PR company are likely to be working late tonight.
This is a good place to start if you're looking for real studies of transportation safety.
I can understand this happening in SF, where you can't walk slowly without touching shoulders with everyone. On a large moving platform with handlebars, you're just begging for injuries and lawsuits and whatnot.
Oakland is a bit less crazy, same with Santa Cruz, and San Mateo is just silly (hey we're a big city too! give us some press!)
Anyway, there are definitly areas of all these cities where I'd love to be moving a bit faster, as well as areas where everyone should be walking. Bikes, rollerblades, skateboards, mopeds, etc should be banned by an area-by-area basis.
How about Walking-Only zones (handicapped excepted) in certain areas as opposed to shooting things down individually before they are even being shipped....geez
This is mostly true, but note that it's not universally true that bicycles are banned from sidewalks; in the US this is usually a matter for local governments (though there may also be a few states with such bans, I'm not sure).
Certainly it's true that, whatever the law says, people on vehicles with nonzero stopping distances (like bicycles) are better off riding with traffic rather than riding on the sidewalks.
--Bruce F.
The title should include the word "sidewalk" in it. Many posters think that the devices have been banned entirely.
For comparison, the fastest 100m dash was 10.2 meters per second, or almost 23 mph. A segway goes 12.5 mph, which is about 5.6 m/s -- faster than a swarm of killer bees or an australian crocodile, but not quite as fast as a steep lava flow (9.1 m/s) or a Tyrannosaurus Rex (estimated at 11.1 m/s).
The segway is nearly as fast as a roadrunner (6.7 m/s)... just wait 'til Wiley E. Coyote gets his hands on one. In the meantime, imagine getting nailed by a 250 pound metal cyborg roadrunner as you walk to work.
Hope that clears things up.
You wanna be the one to tell the Postal worker that he can't have his Segway? I don't.
Well, I'll explain it for you and all the other lazy ignorant types who lurk around here. The California law defines pedestrian, and it includes any wheelchair when the operator, "by reason of physical disability, is otherwise unable to move about as a pedestrian." The amenedment for Segway was just a giveaway, redefining anyone on a Segway as a pedestrian, which is absurd.
Remember that prior to this, the default in most cities is that motorized vehicles of any kind (except the powered wheelchairs of the disabled) are not allowed on sidewalks.
In some cases vehicles of any kind are by default banned, usually bikes and often rollerblades and even skateboards.
Segway worked hard to get laws passed to declare their device a special case, not like an ordinary motorized vehicle. Some cities resisted, said, "no, we are not going to make a special exception for your new device. It gets classed like any other motorized vehicle, and as always, it's banned from the sidewalks."
Where Kamen goofed is he got broader laws passed declaring the Segway to not be a vehicle and thus, according to state and national laws IT IS NOT ALLOWED ON THE ROADS. So in places where it is banned on the sidewalk, it is also, unless they say otherwise, also not allowed on the roads either. I don't think this will be enforced, though.
I do agree they should see if the device is a danger before deciding where it should go. But realize that the current default is what SF did. What other cities who are "not banning" it have done is to change their rules to allow this one motorized vehicle on their sidewalks.
Has it been over a year since you last donated to the Electronic Frontier Foundation
Think about it;
This is a device that makes you taller, makes you physically bigger and can make other people move out of your way. I was watching the segway being used in a video promoting the segway and the thing that is most noticed is that people walking would automactically get out of the Segway's way. I have had enough of fucking SUV and the asshole driver bullying everyone else on the road. I dont want to see it happen on the sidewalk also.
Sigs are dangerous coy things
Because it's an auto industry conspiracy! Conspiracy I say! And everyone knows that the auto industry is responsible for SUV's and all SUV owners are terrorists! It's the terrorists!!!
>Your attitude towards your fellow citizens
>is offensive in the least, and stupid besides.
My "attitude" towards my "fellow citizens" was formed by their insolent, childish, selfish, obnoxious behavior. If you have a problem with my "attitude" towards yuppies, try teaching the little fucktards a few basic lessons in civility. Namely:
* Pay attention to where the fuck you are on the road when you're driving your $70,000 petroleum chugging fume belching lane hogging pedestrian composter.
* Learn how to park. In a single space - not three.
* Learn how to use your turn signal. And how to turn it off.
* Learn that red lights mean, "stop."
* Turn off the ringer on your goddamn cell phone when you attend the movies or the symphony. Anybody who's earning $150,000 a year for "harnessing cutting edge models" or "branding granular e-business" or "utilizing magnetic schemas" or whatever the e-bullshit d'jour is in the tech sector ought to be able to figure out how to silence their $500 cell phone.
>Do you really think that "pasty yuppie asses" will
>be the ones to buy this thing - instead of (for example)
>postal workers, who are already testing it?
Well, considering it's a $5,000 tech gadget that performs essentially the same function that a bicycle, skateboard or roller-skates could perform for at least $4,500 less, yes I'd say "pasty yuppie asses" are exactly the crowd that will be buying this thing. Anybody who ever worked an honest day in their life would certainly blanch at the thought of blowing $5,000 on a toy that makes you look like a clueless dork, and turns you into a threat to 90-year-old grandmothers on their way to buy groceries. But based on prior experience (see above), I wouldn't expect selfish, self-absorbed yuppies to spend a single millisecond considering the welfare of others.
I could see the Segway being useful in an environment like a warehouse, but we weren't talking about banning them in warehouses, only on the sidewalks.
Regarding postal workers, they're already reporting they hate the things. As one of them put it, standing around on a Segway buzzing down the sidewalk at 12mph when the temperature is below freezing turns you into a giant popsicle on a stick real quick.
Lets apply the conservation of momentum to a situation involving a man walking toward another man of same mass going 15 mph on a segway (for this we'll neglect friction).
Vi1 = 2.235 m/s (5 mph)
M1 = 77.27 Kg (150 lbs)
Vi2 = 6.705 m/s (15 mph)
M2 = 100 Kg (220 lbs)
say at the end the segway with rider stops in its tracks and the man goes flying, and since the man is travelling toward the man we can say he's going -2.235 m/s.
Pi = Pf
M1(Vi1) + M2(Vi2) = M1(Vf1) + M2(Vf2)
(77.27 Kg)(-2.235 m/s) + (100 Kg)(6.705 m/s) = (77.27 Kg)(Vf1) + 0
Vf1 = 9.648 m/s or 21.583 mph.
ouch.
(sorry about repost forgot to put in my pw.)
I've seen two yuppies (the financial kind) whiz by on the sidewalk in front of my office in downtown San Francisco (so much for "a device that hasn't arrived yet"), and I wholly agree with the ban - these contraptions are a serious hazard to pedestrians. They are wide, have a high center of gravity and are very fast. They will also probably be driven by the same heedless people who burn red lights in their SUVs (I see that happen at least twice a week in SF).
And perhaps if I run towards a bullet and hit it, I will stop and the bullet will shoot away at 300 mph. Seriously. You can't just assume M2(Vf2) = 0. Remember to conserve energy too. High school physics 1 can be a dangerous thing with no high school physics 2.
Since Segway comes with speed governors, it would be just as simple to mandate they be dialed down to their slowest setting until there was more experience with it. When cars were introduced, the same thing happened. Eventually, when people understand the issues, reasonable accomodations can be made.
Now wait till WangCo makes a $150 knock off with turbo, wheel spikes, flashing LEDs and a subwoofer, and a bunch of drunk teenagers get them. No accidents?
I'm Rick James with mod points biatch!