Telemarketers Sue to Block Do-Not-Call List

chumpieboy writes "A story on Yahoo tells about about the DMA's attempts to stop a national DoNotCall list, essentially claiming that Opt Out is not a viable model for telemarketers. Yet they claim that Opt Out is a viable model for email marketing?"

Comments

Well, which is it?

[stevel]

Interesting. Just the other day I read a newspaper story about DNC lists saying that the DMA liked them because they wouldn't waste their time calling people who didn't want their calls...

Re:Well, which is it?

[aborchers]

The fact that DMA charges a $5 to register on-line, where the removal process can be trivially automated, and will remove me for free if I send their form by mail, where a human being has to collect and open the mail, do data entry, etc. demonstrates their contempt for consumers. They go out of their way to ensure that it is difficult to avoid being annoyed by them, while maintaining a claim that they offer us the option. This is exactly why they need to be regulated.

BTW, great username. Brings back memories of thumping the plate glass windows at my local music store with subsonic blasts from the mm rig in the back.

Re:Well, which is it?

[MCZapf]

Yes, they are trying to discourage you from register from their do-not-call list. But, take a close look at the snail mail removal process. They've cleverly arranged it to be significantly more complicated for you, yet trivial for them. The only data entry a human at the DMA has to do is to enter a tracking number.

Observe that to generate the form they want you to send by snail mail, you submit all of your personal data to their webserver, which returns to you a page for you to print and mail to them. Since you are sending the data to their webserver they are almost definitely collecting it, even though they won't act on it unless you mail it in.

Not convinced? Then take a look at the page the webserver sends back to you. Along with your name, address, etc. there is a unique tracking number. Not only that, but the same tracking number is included in the address they ask you to mail the form to. I'll bet the DMA doesn't even open the envolopes sent to them. Someone just enters in the tracking number from the address and POOF, the data they collected earlier is used to add you to the do-not-call list.

What's my point? I guess it's that these guys aren't idiots. I trust them to actually put my name on this list with little chance for error, seeing as how easy they've made it for themselves.

on my friends answering machine

[greechneb]

You've reached 555-1234. If you would like to leave a message, you know what to do. If you are selling windows, doors, siding, long distance, or any other crap, hang up and never call back...

One day she got a message from a telemarketer cussing her out for the message, saying that they were only trying to make a living. Guess she struck a nerve with that telemarketer....

How the list will be abused:

[doublem]

I don't see the point of the DNC list.

Here's what will happen:

List will be made available

Telemarketers will get hold of list.

SOME US based telemarketers will do what they're supposed to and leave the people on the list alone.

Others (I know one personally) will laugh and hand the list over to their call center as a list of verified numbers. If someone goes after them, they will weasel out of the lawsuit via claims of clerical errors. (Got him off the junk fax rap they faced in '97. This is a very sick SOB who honestly believes people WANT to receive SPAM)

finally, there will be a group that takes the list to another country and sets up a call center there.

Sure, you won't get as many calls from US telemarketers, but you'll get a boatload from Indian Telemarketers who laugh at phrase "Put me on your do not call list" reply.

Re:How the list will be abused:

[Daniel Dvorkin]

I kind of doubt it. Colorado is one of the states that has a state DNC list (which applies to out-of-state callers as well) and I haven't seen any sign of abuse -- just a (wonderful) reduction in the number of junk calls I get. In fact, I think I've only had one telemarketer call me since my number went on the list, and when I said, "This number is on the state do-not-call list, and it is illegal for you to call me," he apologized and hung up quickly. The only real hole I see in the system is the exemption for charities and political groups -- guys, if I want to donate to your organization to save the homeless veteran baby seal politicians, I'll seek you out on my own, don't call me at dinner, thanks.

There are some big differences between telemarketing and spam that make abuse less likely:

1) "Verified" phone numbers can usually be found simply by opening up the phone book. People don't drop phone numbers nearly as often as they drop e-mail addresses. So the whole concept of verifying numbers isn't likely to be all that important to telemarketers.

2) It costs money to call from other countries. Obviously there are deals by which big companies can make it cost not-that-much; otherwise IBM wouldn't be setting up call centers in India. But I suspect the resources for that kind of thing are a little beyond the fly-by-night organizations that set up spam centers.

3) You can make life a lot harder for telemarketers than you can for people on the other end of spam. Scream at them, blow a whistle into the phone, press and hold buttons ... Even back when I was getting telemarketing calls, I didn't do these things, because I know most telemarketers themselves (as opposed to their bosses) are just normal people trying to make a living. But if I didn't have any other resources to get them off my ass, I'd probably start doing that. I know people who have done that sort of thing regularly and said they got a dramatic reduction in the number of calls -- apparently, somehow, word gets around.

Re:How the list will be abused:

[Zathrus]

List will be made available

Yes, but realize that "made available" is not a free thing... it costs money to get it. It costs more money to not get it though...

SOME US based telemarketers will do what they're supposed to and leave the people on the list alone

More like most.

Others (I know one personally) will laugh and hand the list over to their call center as a list of verified numbers. If someone goes after them, they will weasel out of the lawsuit via claims of clerical errors

And most judges will let him know that it would behoove him to not have clerical errors in the future, and here's a fine for $500 per incident as incentive. Next case.

Frankly, your acquaintence is an idiot and a moron. He's using telephone numbers of people who have explicitly said "I won't buy from you" as "verified numbers"? That's called wasting money - and it's his own money, not his client's money, because he can't charge significantly more for telemarketing services than his competitors. Filtering out DNC numbers is a quick, computer-driven task. Having people call the number and be told off is a slow, expensive task.

Sure, you won't get as many calls from US telemarketers, but you'll get a boatload from Indian Telemarketers who laugh at phrase "Put me on your do not call list" reply

Uh huh... because running a call center using international phone rates is so much cheaper than using state-to-state rates... Sure, you save on labor costs, but you're still going to get nailed by the "calling people who will never, ever buy your product" bit.

Frankly, let the scum of the scum do this crap. They'll be weeded out by market forces alone.

Re: Fun with telemarketers

[Black Parrot]

> I signed up for our state do not call list, and probably would for the national one too. But sometimes it is fun to hassle them.

I always say "Hang on a sec...", lay the receiver down as quitely as I can, and forget about it until I hear it beeping. They waste my time --> I waste theirs.

Pick one

[nuggz]

The current opt out list is optional. They follow it anyway.
Making it legally binding doesn't harm the reputable companies, only those that ignore it now.

What do they want? an Opt In list?

I don't want charity or political organizations calling me either, why can't we get rid of them?

evidence for this

[martin]

I'd them to cite evidence "that it doesn't work".

We have it here in the UK for both phone and postal varients, and from my experience it works well, YMMV of course.

We used to get lots of phone and postal spam. We signed up and after 3 months it started receeding and now we get no phone spam and very very little postal spam.

As much as I hate telemarketers

[SCHecklerX]

I do somewhat agree with their annoyance at a law. It does not seem that a law is necessary or that it would even help. From the article, the DMA does try to police itself with its own 'do not call' list, as well as monitoring that of each state. Whether they actually enforce their own policy is another discussion.

I've found that when I tell people to put me on their do not call list, that they usually do comply. My biggest problem is that I recently moved (just across town, same phone number, mind you), and I started getting the calls again. It seems the phone company is quite the whore with your personal information. Same with the post office (I received tons of coupons from Lowe's, etc as soon as I changed my address).

I've had to resort to putting the 'three tone' back on my answering machine (search for SIT.WAV on google...I'm not about to have my own little server slashdotted :)

We have a DNC list here

[reimero]

In Indiana, I've been quite happy with the DNC list the state has instituted. Telemarketing calls have dropped to practically nil.
One thing to watch out for is that in many cases, when a "telemarketer" calls when your name is on a DNC list, it's not a telemarketer at all: it's a scam operation. If they refuse to hang up and refuse to provide details, they almost certainly ARE a scam group! Just something to be wary of.

Waste their time...cost them money.

[Rai]

As previous stated, I wouldn't sign up for a do-not-call list because that prevents me from costing telespammers money. Just hanging up does nothing but allow them to move on to the next potential victim. I waste as much of their time as I can. I realize I probably don't make a significant financial impact, but if more people did this, there would be no need for a do-not-call list. Telespammers would waste all their time with non-payers like me, thwarting their commissions, forcing them to seek new (more moral) jobs, leaving the companies with no one to peddle their wares. Keep this up and eventually, they all go out of business.

Re:fantasy system:

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah, but reality can be even sweeter! In St. Louis there was a telemarketing company, and they violated the Missouri No-Call law almost 300 times. The fine was a nice chunk of change - so much so the company was going to have to lay off their workers and shutdown. The employees decided to stage a little protest march complete with picket signs. I loved it! Telemarketers out of work, standing out in the cold, no longer bothering me.

Here's a wacky idea . . .

[dheeraj]

Like the guy who billed spammers, can I invoice these bastards for wasting my time?

I'm an independent consultant, and I bill by the hour, with a one-hour minimum. Why don't I just bill them for wasting my time? They're obviously businesses, too, so I'll be sure to bill them my sizable business rate.

Perhaps I dream of the large Accounts Payable department, where they just don't have the time to sit and analyze every invoice they get, and where some underpaid employee will just blindly cut a check and send it out . . .

Now, proceed to tell me what's wrong with this idea . . .

Opt out works in the UK

[Neophytus]

The UK has a national phone telemarketing opt-out service, for free, which I am on. Since subscribing to it I have recieved very few telemarketing phone calls. The very occasional one I do recieve is either on my ex-internet line (i'm not sure if thats listed) or a disreputable company I just hang up on. It works.

Charge anyone for a call

[iamacat]

There were ideas for blocking spam by letting people charge each other for e-mail. Isn't it much easier and more practical with phone calls? Give one an option to press something like *18 ("I ate") once per call that was placed by the other party. It will charge $5 to the caller and credit $4 to receivers account, with a dollar going to the phone company for the trouble. It will also play a recording to the other side that explains to them what happened.

Discouraging telemarketers will be only one application of this technology. For example, people can make a buck answering short computer questions without setting up 900 number or credit card processing. Or, companies with valid, personalized offers for you can show they are serious by paying for your ears.

As for abuses, they will quickly take care of themselves. If a bozo charges everyone for calls, he will be quickly left alone. If you charge a company you have an account with, they will just bill you back for the pleasure and then you will be able to dispute your bill with the government if they did spam you. If you dialed a wrong number - well it's just five bucks. Watch your fingers. Telemarketers on the other hand, if they still exist, will compile their own don't call lists based on their financial losses.

DMA President H. Robert Weintzen Home Phone #

[Anonymous Coward]

212-879-5606

Perhaps Robert would like to hear from everyone
here "exercising their free speech"

Or drop him a snail mail...
265 E. 66th St.
NY, NY 10021

Re:fantasy system:

[BigT]

This is why do-not-call lists could actually be good for telemarketers. Of those 400 people, most would probably sign up for the do-not-call list. Let's say 300 of them. That leaves 100 people being rude, and 100 willing to listen for every 200 calls. If you expand that out to the 500 calls you made a day, then you have 250 people willing to listen and 7-8 sales per day vs. 3.
The people (like myself) who are going to sign up for the list will never buy anything from a telemarketer, so if we cut down on the number of calls that they make that are guaranteed to be unproductive, it's actually better for them.

Re:fantasy system:

[The_K4]

My experience with the state do-not call list was pretty poor. SO i just switched my "listed" nuber to my cell phone. It's the only number I give out to ANYONE that I don't know. Now if i get a telemarketer call it's on my cell. I politly inform them that this is a cell phone, and as such illegal for them to call. I ask them for their address, and the id number of this call that I may send them a bill for the charges to my cell phone for this call, which they are now legaly liable for. I get supprisingly few calls now. :)

Speech

[bitspotter]

I tend to think freedom of speech is best understood as the right of the audience, rather than the speaker. The point is to allow folks the best access to the widest possible variety speech, literature, art, etc., that they want to hear or experience.

That last phrase carries the key. If you make the very reasonable presumption that audiences aren't interested in deceptions - fraud, defamation, libel, slander... and, of course, unsolicited solicitations, then I think this slant cleans up a lot of difficulties many have with untidy "exceptions" to Freedom of Speech(tm).

Re:fantasy system:

[flyhmstr]

I only got rude to telemarketers when they didn't take the hint or lied

TM: "HI..."
ME: No thank you
TM: but if..
ME: what part of 'no' was difficult, bugger off.

or

TM: "HI..."
ME: If you're trying to sell something don't bother
TM: Well if you give me a moment I'm sure you'll be interested...
ME: Bugger off

However we don't get any calls now because we're on the UK TPS (telephone preference service) which is the UK telemarketing block list. Apart from the odd company which are stupid beyond the norm and get asked for their company details so I can pass them on to Oftel it works well.

Is a national DNC neccesary?

[SmokeSerpent]

Instead of all this "annoy the caller" bologna a lot of people are bragging about on here, two years ago I began to just simply cut off the telemarketer and ask to be placed on their own "do not call" list. I receive very few junk calls nowadays. I make no effort to hide my phone number, and it has been active for ten years.

The only real trouble I had recently was when the TV ratings company decided that they wanted me to report my viewing habits. They will not stop calling you. They will call at all times of the day and evening. They will purposely call 5 times throughout a single day because the person who's been answering the phone might not be "the one that their computer wants to get". They proudly proclaim that they can and do do all this because, since they are not selling anything, they are exempt from the laws regarding telemarketing.

Re:Do you still have problems with this stuff?

[smash]

I've had my phone number for 10+ years, how much of a pain would it be to disconnect my home phone and update everyone that needs to be updated? Sorry, there is the time I don't want to waste. I'd rather be able to tell the Marketiers collectively to not call me and be done with it.

Thats all well and good, and reasonable, but unfortunately, its just not going to happen.

The method of getting rid of their means of contacting you works, and IMHO, if a solution doesn't work (telling them "please don't call me"), its pretty pointless.

Personally, I think several changes need making to the telephone system:

1. Removal of caller ID blocking. There is no legitimate use for it - all its used for is prank calls, or people calling you who you do not want to speak to (harassment)
2. Ability to block incoming numbers/prefixes on your phone. Eg, if I find telemarketer A has a prefix of 61890212xxx, I can just block that prefix.

Essentially, I want to be able to "firewall" my phone. Once the call centre numbers of the various telemarketers are blocked, things should be sweet :P

smash.

I'll chime in

[Flower]

Since this episode happened only a day or two ago and is relevent....

I work the graveyard shift and occassionally take my son to daycare so I can catch up on some sleep. After a couple of night's of insomnia I try to catch up on some sleep and sure enough my head barely hits the pillow when the phone rings. It's a telemarketer. I figure no big deal. Ignore it and go back to bed.

The jerk procedes to keep calling every five to ten minutes for the next 45. I have to keep the phone on hook in case daycare calls about my son. In the end, this harrassment costs me two hours of sleep and I have to take my son to daycare the next day so I can try once again to get some sleep and be somewhat productive at work.

Fuck the telemarketing companies. Stuff like that messes with my livelyhood and I don't need to go through 50 calls a month telling each and every company who manages to get their mitts on my contact info to stop calling me. They don't have a right to one red cent of profit but I do have a right not to be harrassed and I shouldn't have to disable a basic service in my home to get away from it.

Well, that's my rant for the day. Thanks for reading it. I feel better now.