Slashback: Cooperation, Gravity, Petite

Slashback with more (below) on KDE/GNOME cooperation (hint -- they're not renaming it "GNOMKDE"); the desert parachute nuts, a tiny P4 machine, and another chance to Ask Kevin Mitnick, at least if you're near Pittsburgh. Enjoy!

This is only making my biggest case look even bigger. Andrew Pakula of StealthPC writes: "A little while ago you posted about our Pentium 3 little pc, the size of a CD-ROM. ... Many of emails people sent us however were for people looking for a Pentium 4 little pc but at the time we didn't have anything to offer them with that power.

Well now we do have a Pentium 4 version, slightly taller than the Pentium 3 version it is still very, very small. You can take a look a look at it here. There are several pictures of it there as well as on the images page."

Just don't tell him your full real name. If your question didn't rise to the top of the recent Kevin Mitnick interview, here's your chance: Arvonn Tully points to this site (an activities listing for Carnegie Mellon University) writes "If you look at the bottom of the page you will see that Kevin Mitnick will be coming to Carnegie Mellon and lecturing on March 18th."

Those two are really joined at the XML! JP Schnapper-Casteras of the Free Desktop Accessibility Working Group writes about the post last week titled "KDE And Gnome Cooperate On Interface Guidelines," to clarify the extent of that cooperation: "We're going to co-locate, NOT combine the documents. This means that means there will be separate guidelines for GNOME and KDE in different chapters / sections of the same document. The current overview implies that KDE and GNOME will become stylistically similar, which is not the case. We're simply creating one site and mailing list where HIGs for all desktops can reside."

Lucy in the sky with a junker that's just begging to be dropped. Last September, we mentioned the fellows who like to abuse technology by dropping unusual things (manned automobiles, for one) from the backs of cargo planes for skydiving thrills. If that interested you, you will enjoy (and boggle at) the group's DVD documentary/video montage Good Stuff. I watched it with jaw unhinged; if this doesn't make you want to skydive, nothing will.

Comments

If they can drop automobiles?

[$$$$$exyGal]

Why can't scientists drop bowling balls ?

--naked

Re:If they can drop automobiles?

[Anonymous Coward]

Or Anvils *Loony Tunes Theme*

Re:If they can drop automobiles?

[WatertonMan]

Funny. A few friends of mine dropped some bowling balls off a rather tall building on campus when it was discovered that the doors to the roof were left unlocked. It bounced rather high several times. (They did have someone below checking to make sure no pedestrians were around).

An other friend bought some bowling balls at a thrift store back in High School. They rolled it down the street to hit a curb where it would fly high up in the air - much to their amusement. They did this about 6 times until it smashed through the curb, flew off into the air and went through someones roof. Fortunately no one was home. But it taught them why dropping things isn't always a good idea.

I've been hiking in the backcountry where some stupid mfer was rolling boulders down a mountain thinking no one was around. Unless you know exactly where you are dropping things and have scoped things out, dropping things from a plane isn't too smart. (IMO)

BTW - there was an old B-movie staring Charlie Sheen where they do a cool stunt. Someone is locked in the trunk of a car and dropped out of a cargo plane. The stunt man dives after it, gets the keys out of the ignition, slides to the back, unlocks the trunk, gets the person out, clips them into their chute and then they tangent open together. Horrible movie but very cool stunt. Too bad today it would be handled via CGI. It seems like real stunts are becoming a thing of the past.

Re:If they can drop automobiles?

[FFFish]

I've been hiking in the backcountry where some stupid mfer was rolling boulders down a mountain thinking no one was around.

Oh, shit, I'm sorry, man. I've always worried about that. A little. After it's too late.

Re:If they can drop automobiles?

[daveq]

In case you care, the movie was Terminal Velocity.

Re:If they can drop automobiles?

[meringuoid]

Unless you know exactly where you are dropping things and have scoped things out, dropping things from a plane isn't too smart.

United States Air Force, are you listening?

Re:If they can drop automobiles?

[yellowstone]

bowling ball up to the top of a local residential road that travels down a long, steep hill for about a mile or two

Assuming for the moment that one were to actually try this, the bowling ball would almost certainly find its way into one ditch or the other in fairly short order, because

1. Roads are very uneven, and full of random crud which would tend to deflect the bowling ball from a straight course, and
2. Roads are typically designed to be convex (high in the middle, low on the sides) so that rain drains off. Even if the ball wasn't deflected by debris, it would tend to roll to the side anyway.

Even if you don't have those problems to deal with, imagine how hard it would be to avoid rolling a gutter ball on a bowling alley 2 miles long.

The reason there was nothing in the paper is that the ball is in the ditch, probably a few hundred feet from where they started it.

Re:If they can drop automobiles?

[stefanlasiewski]

They rolled it down the street to hit a curb where it would fly high up in the air - much to their amusement. They did this about 6 times until it smashed through the curb, flew off into the air and went through someones roof.

I've been hiking in the backcountry where some stupid mfer was rolling boulders down a mountain thinking no one was around.

No, I knew you were down there.

After all, I have been stalking you since you ... I mean, your "friend" smashed a bowling ball into my car!!!

I mean, who do you think you are? Bowling Girl???

Re:If they can drop automobiles?

[transient]

Unless you know exactly where you are dropping things and have scoped things out, dropping things from a plane isn't too smart.

Not just dumb, but illegal. Unless you have made every effort to ensure that no people will be hurt, and no property will be damaged (other than your own, I suppose), you're in violation of FAA regs.

Of course, if you know everything's safe (relatively), then you are legally allowed to drop stuff out of planes! I have to admit I've been tempted to launch squadrons of plastic army men with little parachutes from a Cessna.

Re:If they can drop automobiles?

[child_of_mercy]

except for when their allies are in the region of course.

WWII Saying:

"When the Germans bomb, the british duck,
when the British bomb, the germans duck,
when the Americans bomb, everyone ducks."

Re:If they can drop automobiles?

[tzanger]

Besides, the USAF does a pretty good job of hitting appropriate targets accurately and precisely.

<cough>

Re:If they can drop automobiles?

[Chiggy_Von_Richtoffe]

Pffft!!
automobiles, shmautomobiles, real boffins dropp watermellons!

Its good to see kooperation.

[Anonymous Coward]

As an end user, who uses kde, and gtk apps, compatibllity is key. The kde team should write a wrapper for gtk to use kde widgets for gtk apps, so they look and feel the same.

Geramik helps, but it would be kool to use the kde file dialog instead of the (yuck) gtk one.

Dedicated Servers

[jpsowin]

Those "little pc's" would be great for a bunch of dedicated servers in a compact space... I wonder if one could remove the CD drive and put a notebook HD in? That would be perfect...

KDE and GNOME, combined documents??

[Cokelee]

WTF, IMHO a common HIG would be great. Geez, talk about getting my hopes up.

Same document, different sections. Why the same document, compare and contrast???
What is wrong with a streamlined HIG- why is it seen as a bad thing to ANYBODY?
The approach doesn't have to be exactly the same, just the ideology behind the approach, that's what matters - SOME consistency.

Re:KDE and GNOME, combined documents??

[bstadil]

WTF, IMHO a common HIG would be great Fewer acronyms would be a good start.

Re:KDE and GNOME, combined documents??

[mmol_6453]

why is it seen as a bad thing to ANYBODY?

Grudges. KDE is based on Qt, which wasn't Software Libre when the first version of KDE was released. (Which is why GNOME was started.)

Also, as an example, I came in on the scene only five years ago, after Trolltech made Qt GPL. Oddly enough, I'm still annoyed at theKompany, because I installed Kivio on my laptop so I could build circuit diagrams on my laptop. Come to find out, I have to buy the electronic schematics before I can use them in Kivio. Granted, they have the right to charge for extraneous material(which these extra stencils are), but I find, as a (P)oor (C)ollege (S)tudent, that free as in Beer is really, really advantageous. So I'm annoyed. I was really looking forward to built-in Python scripting, and, IMO, Dia needs work before I can use it with much comfort.

For the complete set of electronics symbols, at an average of $6 per stencil set, I'd probably be paying out $60 this week. And if I wanted any other users on my laptop to be able to use those stencils, it's another $60 per person.

And, as a final answer to your question, I gaurantee you I'll get at least one down-mod for badmouthing either GNOME or KDE office components. (Though I might not get modded at all as this is a rather old article now.)

Re:KDE and GNOME, combined documents??

[Anonymous Coward]

You're crazy!!

Let me tell you about our project. We strongly believe that Okay buttons should be blue, with 5 pixels of padding between them and the window border.

I understand there are some misguided people in this world who tolerate and even support white Okay buttons and.. it hurts to say it.. 3 pixels of padding.

Now, you know, and I know, these people are MORONS who deserve nothing less than FLAMING HOT DEATH, but still, they get together in their little "cliques" and plot new ways they can sneak their white 3-pixel agendas into the mainstream.

I want no part of it.

That's why it's best if we simply write our own documents, and not contaminate them with the festering ideas of these addle-brained mouth-breathers. If they are smart, they will simply drop their inferior competing project, which serves no purpose and crashes often, and join ours, with its blue 5-pixel perfection.

The choice is clear.

good stuff

[SubtleNuance]

I dont normally give free adverts (or any for that matter), but Ive used Stealth's pointing devices/keyboards in an iron foundry (read as; incredibly harsh environment) -- they are they only thing to stand up to the abuse. Good quality stuff.

I 'll bet these little PCs are built equally well.

Case modder's dream.

[dwdyer]

Nah, get one of these little PCs, stick it in a tower case, then you've got the whole damned thing for cold cathode lights, improbable-looking water cooling systems, etc.

-W-

Re:Why KDE or GNOME anyway?

[WIAKywbfatw]

If you think that Linux doesn't need a stable WIMP interface and desktop environment and that a CLI will suffice for all Linux users then you are sadly mistaken.

A CLI and a CLI alone might be fine for you but it won't work for 99 percent of Linux users. How do you expect to browse the web in Mozilla, edit a picture in Gimp, type and format a letter in OpenOffice or play a game with a CLI alone?

At a time when the Linux community is pushing open source software as a viable alternative to Microsoft-dominated solutions how will forcing every new adopter to learn a non-intuitive set of commands help promote Linux as the way forward?

I'm sorry if you see both GNOME and KDE as a waste of time. Please accept the fact that the overwhelming majority don't and that the future growth of the Linux community is dependent on an easy-to-use desktop that delivers as much as (if not more than) Windows does.

Re:Why KDE or GNOME anyway?

[ddimas]

Actually the command line and the GUI both have their uses. After all, you don't use a hammer to drive a screw do you?

Well, the power of linux is in its command line, I believe there should all the work go. I feel linux is going in a totally wrong direction.

Re:Who the fuck cares about Kevin Mitnick?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Mitnick: you're a goddamned criminal. Rot in hell."

Michael:

Please stop posting all this negative shit anonymously. If you've got a problem then let's meet and talk. Perhaps at 9:00 tonight at Vino's? You've got plenty of gas in your tank, and your Outlook says your free so I'll pencil you in. Please wear something else 'though, that red sweater you've got on makes you look like a tomato.

-me

how about this little mini-itx sized p4 mobo?

[ovidus naso]

As spotted on linitx.org: 7in x 7in P4 mobo
Should be much CHEAPER to build a system than the one refered in this article...

Re:how about this little mini-itx sized p4 mobo?

[-tji]

This looks like a great board.. Integrated USB 2.0 and Firewire are great, especially with only one PCI slot to work with. But, how about a case to put it in?

There are several good options for Mini-ITX motherboards.. If you don't need a lot of CPU power, the VIA EPIA motherboards - with the C3 processor - are a good option. They are low heat, which will help if you can find a small case.

But, this P4 system could be quite challenging, given it's high power and heat dissipation requirements. Anyone have some good suggestions for a case for this thing?

Re:how about this little mini-itx sized p4 mobo?

[EverDense]

That looks good, thank you very much. If only they'd ditch the printer port, it is
getting pretty hard to buy a printer these days that isn't USB. Might save a little
space on the M/B into the bargain.

One gratuitous incompatibility in GNOME 2.x

[rsidd]

is the rearrangement of the "OK" and "Cancel" buttons, so that "Cancel" is now on the left and "OK" is on the right, in contrast to GNOME 1.x, KDE (all versions) and Windows. Whose bright idea was this? Perhaps someone who's used to answering questions like "Do you want to do this, no or yes"?

This is my single biggest peeve with GNOME 2.x, which is otherwise looking very nice. Well, if they're cohosting their Human Interface Guide with the KDE folks, hopefully someone will get a clue (the clue being: stay compatible with the rest of the world).

If the GNOME folks ever built a car, very likely they'd put the brake to the right of the accelerator, because that's the way it "should be" for some theoretical reason of their own.

Re:One gratuitous incompatibility in GNOME 2.x

[mabster]

I think it was Apple who decided that OK should be on the right. The idea is that the buttons should work like the 'Next' and 'Back' buttons do in wizards - take you to the next logical step, or go back to the previous one.
When you think of them in that context, OK and Cancel really should be ordered the other way around.
Of course, it's still hard to get used to for your average Windows user (like me).

Re:One gratuitous incompatibility in GNOME 2.x

[Fluffy the Cat]

1) It standardises the position of "OK". There are significantly more boxes that only have a single "OK" gadget than there are only having a single "Cancel" gadget.

2) People tend to leave the mouse in the bottom corner of dialog boxes while they're reading them. Dialog boxes should ideally be designed that most of the time the user wishes to choose "OK". Having the "OK" button on the right reduces the time taken to respond to the dialog.

I find it significantly nicer with this arrangement. I'm unconvinced by the "Do it the same as the rest of the world" argument - doing it right is more important.

Re:One gratuitous incompatibility in GNOME 2.x

[Spyky]

The Apple Macintosh has prefered this configuration of Cancel and OK since it was first created in 1984. It is incorrect to say that GNOME is going against the grain of companies that have spent millions on HCI studies, because Apple is definitely one of those companies.

Aqua HIG

-Spyky

Re:One gratuitous incompatibility in GNOME 2.x

[spitzak]

I don't find the "standardize the position of OK" argument convincing. This could also be "fixed" by moving the OK on a one-button dialog box left so it is in the same position as the two-button one.

The truth of all this argument is that OK-right was the design used on Macintoshes, which most post-Mac Unix software copied. There were some theoretical arguments for why this was better and thus selected by the Mac, but they are not really strong.

Like usual it was Microsoft that ignored prevailing standards and set their own and reversed the order (they also added the yes/no/cancel type dialogs, which had the annoying effect of reversing what yes/no meant when exiting a program compared to the Mac standard).

However imho the cause is lost. Microsoft set the standard and everybody (not just Gnome, but Mac) should give up and follow it. The alternatives do not have strong enough arguments for the this standard to be ignored.

Direct link to Mitnick news

[generic-man]

It's a pretty brief blurb, but AB's Slash-like site actually has comments on the article.

Direct link

Put a

[gearheadsmp]

LiveDVD in there (ala LiveCD) and you've got quite a big a workspace. Or better yet, ditch the optical drive, drop a bunch of ram in, and have the boot off net, downloading the entire OS into ram.

It's been done

[Wee]

Those "little pc's" would be great for a bunch of dedicated servers in a compact space... I wonder if one could remove the CD drive and put a notebook HD in? That would be perfect

It's already been done, and done better than a stack of these little CD-sized guys. The RLX deals are pretty damn amazing. I've had occasion to see two different models in the past two years, and have been impressed each time. My favorite has to the be Transmeta-based blades, just because the consume like 9 watts when sitting idle. They're cool enough that you'd have a hard time telling they were powered on.

What makes something like an RLX chassis better than stacking in "little PCs" is that RLX has some very nice mgmt software that comes with the whole unit. Basically, you dedicate one blade to do mgmt stuff, and the rest (whether you have one chassis or ten) can all be managed by it. You can have all the blades sitting there blank, and remotely (and programmatically) boot up and then re-image any number of them with Windows or Linux, in any configuration you've set up. (The OS images are actually just tarballs of previously-installed operating systems you've set up and saved. So you can dedicate one blade to OS imaging duty, put Red Hat in whater config you want on it, upgrade the kernel or whatever and then push that tarball out to a "test blade" if you want to see how your apps runs.)

You also get more hardware with something like an RLX. The newer ones have dual fibre channel NICs, dual Gig Ethernet NICS, and a dedicated backplane network for "out of band" management, and an optional layer 2 switch for that chassis. That all means that you can make a cluster out of them really easily. And it means that you can do away with their hard drives, boot off the net and use network disk everywhere while still keeping them as "individual" servers. One more bonus: you don't have a cabling nightmare, and don't really need KVM for every server. They are also designed with heat output in mind. You can literally fill a 42U rack full of them (which is a total of like 330-something P3s) and still power it up. They're hot-swappable, too.

I don't work for RLX, I've just seen them up close a couple times (we're demoing one unit now, and will get another soon). If you are thinking of making a cheap cluster, or just want a lot of PCs in a little space withut a management headache, you might do well to look into RLX.

-B

Re:It's been done

[Wee]

blades are too expensive.

That depends on what you need the machines to do. When you factor in management costs for a cluster of full-fledged 1u PCs, blades are in no way too expensive.

colo space isnt that pricey nowadays, even downtown manhattan dcs are pretty cheap.

Again, not my experience. Most people I've seen have a rack or 12 and they don't want to buy more square footage. Some are in a unuversity setting where floorspace can be at a premium. Many realize that they can replace a half rack of 1Us with a half rack of 3 times the server power.

you would be hardpressed to financially justify forking out that kind of money instead of getting a 1u dual p3 tualatin with 2 gbs of ram

Not true. At the college where I work, we can't afford a lot of high-end 1U machines, in either replacement parts or management cost terms. With an RLX, we pay a lot up front for the chassis, but we can add blades very cheaply. And if we have RLX's management stuff can also accommodate requests like "I'd like 27 x86 servers for a class on distributed computing.. can you have it ready by next week?"

Blades fill a purpose, of which clusters are one.

-B

Little PCs -- Do you actually want to sell one?

[Cokelee]

Wow, tiny computer. Nice. Look a n o t h e r tiny computer.

If not bowling balls, why not Silly Putty?

[Xandar01]

Silly Putty Physics Experiment

http://www.sunbelt-software.com/stu/putty/index.cf m

Re:Skydiving

[Shishak]

I don't have a 100% accurate statistic handy but about 95% of all skydiving fatalities are pilot related. People downsizing their canopies too quickly (smaller = faster = more fun). Hook turning that new uber canopy into the ground at 70 MPH.

The fact is, Skydiving equipment is very safe. When used properly, kept well maintained it will rarely fail. If it does you always have your reserve. It is the skydiver that screws up and dies. Complacency = death in this sport.

My first reserve ride was on a borrowed rig and it was all my fault. I deployed too quickly on a hop-n-pop and had my main wrap around my legs. Let me tell you, going to reserve at terminal hurts like a mother, but I'm alive :)

Take your life into your own hands, SKYDIVE!

Other Small PCs

[OrangeHairMan]

Most of these small PCs I've looked at have been >$300 (the one linked in the story doesn't list a price), and haven't been fast enough for my needs, so I looked and found a better solution: Mini-ITX.

These motherboards are only 100 dollars and a little more than 6 inches square. They have integrated video, 800MHz VIA C3 processors, ethernet, TV out, sound, and 2 IDE busses. And the fact that they use C3 processors, they only consume 10 watts, for the whole motherboard! You can get more info here:

http://mini-itx.com/
http://shop2.outpost.com/product/3349552
http://www.via.com.tw/en/VInternet/mini_itx.jsp

Orange

Performance in small PCs?

[BitHive]

To me, a small mainboard means bad performance (i.e. memory throughput etc). Is this the case? I would gladly sacrifice expandability (PCI slots) if I was sure that the components that count (HDD, CPU, RAM) were still performing optimally. . .

Combined

[Shadow Wrought]

So Kevin Mitnick loaded both Gnome and KDE onto a Stealth Pentium 4 Little PC only to drop it out of an airplane?

Cool;-)

Carmack follow-up

[Reality Master 101]

Following up on a recent story (Carmack Needs Rocket Fuel), John an interesting post to the CATS board, which I'll reproduce here to save Slashdotting:

Something a little weird happened on friday -- out of the blue, the local FAA guy that had been running us around about low altitude flight testing at my property outside Dallas, just called up and said that we can do flight tests to 3,500' if we call them on Wednesday, then again on Saturday before we fly. Someone must have prodded him.

A couple of the OSIDA folks visited with us on Saturday. I was complaining about our current peroxide supply problems with FMC, and they asked if it would be helpful to have a governor or senator call someone. Yes indeed, I think that would be helpful!

I'm not too worried about things getting worse on the clearance side. Especially in our case, where we really don't overfly anything -- we just go straght up, then straight down. We expect to come down pretty fast on the parachutes, so we shouldn't even drift very far.

John Carmack

So perhaps things are moving forward after all! All you "chem majors" can now stop e-mailing him. :)

Of course they're not...

[Exiler]

They're renaming it KGNOMKDE

roads have built in gutters

[AlaskanUnderachiever]

Doesn't mention where they rolled it. But in Anchorage, Alaska at least the vast majority of our roads all have two nice "ruts" per lane that would be deep enough to guide a bowling ball nicely for a mile or two. I've personally seen them be up to 4" deep. And while it's nice that a road is "designed" to be convex, they rarely stay that way for long in any area with heavy traffic and poor quality asphalt.

Noise ? Wireless ?

[IanBevan]

Does anybody know how noisy (or not) these little PCs are ?

It also seems to me that they would be a lot more useful to many folks if they had 802.11 wireless networking. Their two featured models (p3 and p4) don't have spare PCI slots, nor do they have a PCMCIA slot (as far as I can see anyway) although I guess you could add it using the usb port. Perhaps an IRDA port would be good also ?

Re:Noise ? Wireless ?

[stefanb]

Lex Barebone has fan-less 533 MHz Mini-IXT boards, including one with three Realtek 10/100 chips, or two Intel 10/100 and one Intel GigE.

There's also a Atmel-based 802.11b controller you can add as an option. Can't seem to find it on their site, but I've seen it at some European resellers.

Not too expesive either: with the wireless option and the Intel chips, it runs at around 400 EUR (plus memory and storage).

Redefining the Slashdot Effect?

[Osty]

Could this be a new consequence of the Slashdot Effect? We all know about the damaging Slashdot Effect, where websites are literally blown out of existence by the huge amount of traffic Slashdot can generate. However, it seems very likely that theCarmack's change in luck so shortly after Slashdot's article had something to do with the Slashdot article. Maybe the widespread airing of his plight got back to the officials who were blocking him, or perhaps there are Slashdot readers involved in the same offices that turned around and decided to help rather than hinder.

Just an interesting observation, is all. Good luck to theCarmack.

The solution

[marm]

Adjust the button order programmatically depending on what environment the app is running in.

When running in KDE, GNOME/GTK+ programs should adopt the KDE button conventions (and possibly other UI choices).

When running in GNOME, KDE/Qt programs should adopt the GNOME conventions.

For KDE apps at least, this is relatively simple - much of the KDE user interface style is already programmatically enforced. Switching button order on dialogs (that inherit KDialogBase, and that's most of them) is a one-liner, a few more lines if it's to be run-time configurable. Similarly, changing menu and toolbar conventions/layout involves using a different XML file to merge with - hey presto, all the menus and toolbar buttons in all KDE apps are arranged differently.

I don't know how easy this would be from a GNOME perspective - my guess is, at least for the button ordering, quite easy - the switch before GNOME2 was released didn't seem to take very long. As for menu/toolbar conventions, this depends on how many GNOME apps use GLADE rather than hardcoding their interface...

Re:Skydiving

[Nick Driver]

Getting out of bed in the morning used to be fun too, but since there's too many accidents, I think I'll just sleep in tomorrow.

Little PC = Disaster Recovery Option

[ashitaka]

OK. We've had a major earthquake. Our building is inaccessible. The off-site tapes won't be available for a couple of days. Even so, I still need to gather the requisite server hardware, tape drive, software (Arcserve - be gentle) and get it all re-installed and recovered to a point at which we can access our data and start producing documents again.

Alternatively I could have a couple of these mini-PCs pre-configured, with a weekly or monthly backup of current production documents, databases, message stores, etc.

In this case it would be one Win2K box with SQL Server, Exchange, IIS and iManage. It would be enough to get us running with a few laptops thrown together on a wireless LAN. I could have the firm running the next day.

Any flaws in this plan?

(Don't bother mentioning Linux. Our Novell servers have already been replaced with RedHat. The requirement for Win2K as the server comes from Exchange and SQL Server that cannot be replaced in our real-world environment.

That Charlie Sheen movie...

[TWX_the_Linux_Zealot]

That movie was called "Terminal Velocity", and seemed pretty cool to me when I was 14 and in a preview audience. Of course, I was 14.

They dropped something like sixteen Cadillacs out of the plane they were using to get all of the scenes they needed for that last shot. It was pretty cool, but if I remember correctly, one or two of the cars landed on something that made it a bit of a mess to clean off of the Arizona desert. Nothing that killed anyone, but still a bit weird.

Re:A "Six Pack"...

[Monkeyman334]

Finally, what I've always wanted... A Six Pack [littlepc.com] that won't make me more attractive to women.

I don't get it. Who exactly is drinking the six pack to make you more attractive?

Re:WooHoo I'm going to jump with those crazy basta

[CvD]

So what's freaky flying then? freak brother? As in sitflying? head up?

I was in Perris this summer... jumped their skyvan a couple times... didn't do the hanging thing tho... next time maybe... :-)

Have fun man! Wish I was there (weather really sucks right now here in the Netherlands).

Cheers!