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Linux to Power Most Motorola Phones
raffe writes "Motorola will begin selling its first cell phone based on Linux this year and says most future models will follow suit, a major sign of the growing popularity of operating system outside its stronghold on high-end computers."
But symian os is already OSS and probably better for mobile phones (since Nokia spearheaded the modular phone movement).
Now a Linux development kit for symian would be nice though.
It seems as Windows and Linux will meet at yet another frontier. Desktop-wise Windows is holding strong and no break-through seems to be near. Server wise, I'd say that Windows is loosing, but only slowly and more work will be needed. In the portable area, both Linux and Windows are relatively new players, but Linux is better suited. Hopefully this will mean that more developers start using (and liking) Linux, and thus help Linux in other areas.
As for the phones; Can I make a call from bash?
I suppose it'll give a whole new meaning if the phone says "Time for a fsck"
Linux and Java archenemy, Microsoft, said Motorola's move doesn't change things much--it's just a new variation on the fight to lure programmers to Microsoft software rather than Java.
Nice to see MS still have their heads in the sand, lets just hope Sendo survive and win their lawsuit.
Are you local? There's nothing for you here!
Linux is GPL so any kernel modifications must be posted. However, loaded modules can be held closed. Also all software running on the Linux kernel can also be kept a secret.
As the article says, the custom software will run in Java running on Linux, so it will be a JVM hosted by Linux, but Linux will probably not be visible to the end user.
And when speaking about Java applets running on phones. That has been done by both Ericsson and Nokia for a while now.
why I need any OS on my lower-end phone. I just want to make some calls!
I'm all for Linux but I'd have to say this is just a marketing strategy. Motorola is desperate.
I'd be interested in what kind of hardware they are using. I built a Linux-based cell phone a while back (uses VoIP w/ WiFi) and the best hardware I could find was still somewhat clunky (PDA sized) and cost about $400. I'm looking into rebuilding the software into tablet and wearable form factors but I'd sure love to find a cellphone sized device that ran Linux that I could hack on.
At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
HELLO?! WHAT?! No, I'm on Linux! LINUX! No it's rubbish! Yeah, I have to worry about dependencies and all that bollocks! Ciao!
How are you going to keep them down on the farm once they've seen Karl Hungus?
Come one, it's got linux in the title, does that make it news?
You bet it is. One of the big three mobile phone manufacturers has said it's not going to be following the rest of the herd with Symbian but is going with an alternative. That in itself is huge news - the mobile phone market is gigantic - almost certainly the single most important embedded software market - and Symbian was expected to walk it, and win over every major manufacturer. Instead, as we see, it's not. Even without looking at it from a Linux perspective, it's a big thing.
At the same time, from a Linux perspective, it's even bigger. It's an enormous win, it'll keep MontaVista and their partners afloat for years. It's also a huge boost to Linux's status in the embedded world - a manufacturer as large as Motorola doesn't choose an OS for their phones lightly. This is a market Microsoft has been spending hand over fist to get into, and failing apart from with a few niche players (one of whom, Sendo, very publicly dumped Microsoft for Symbian)... and yet Linux waltzes in with no budget behind it and captures a Big Three manufacturer without even trying, and in the face of competition from Symbian who have a very very sharp phone OS of their own.
So yes it's news.
Cool... my phone has locked up a few times... maybe this'll fix that.
-Derick
Now what am I gonna do when I go buying my next mobile? As a Finn I should of course buy a Nokia, since doing that won't send all my money abroad. But in the other hand I want to have Linux in my phone. Buying it would of course send my money even out from the EU, which is a bad thing. And knowing the current political situation with NATO, Germany and all I'd rather not buy anything from USA.. But even though Nokias Series 60 -plaform is /somewhat/ open, I'd like the idea of truly free OS in my phone very much. And if I could get a console on that motorola.. *drool*
Now what am I going to do?
Where have your banknotes been?!
Lose != win
Loose != tight
Is it too much to ask to see someone get it right for a change?
Pathman, Free (as in GPL) 3D Pac Man
...the butt awful interface on every motorola I've ever used.
Actually seriously, all motorlas I've use right up till the v66 are appaulingly horrible to do anything with. Before I would actually buy one they really need to sort this out. Reading a text message was an exercise in hell ffs.
Its worth noting that Yamaha (the music gear maker, not the motorcycle maker) announced recently that they would be using an embedded version of linux for most of their keyboards in the near future.
This is very good news! All it takes is a couple large companies like this to adopt Linux (e.g. for embedded systems, perfect use for Linux).
Everyone on slashdot loves desktop PCs and laptops, but the vast majority of computing power in the world exists in embedded systems like in your car, home appliances, portable gadgets, etc. These little systems really run the world.
So when embedded systems engineers get hooked on Linux, believe me, that's huge.
...if you recompile your phone's kernal.
;)
:p
Every time you add a new number.
still, I can start sending my business card as an rpm
I hope Motorola will include Xkillbill on their phones!!
Outsiders agree. "The story here isn't really Linux on cell phones. It's Java running on Linux," Jackson said. "It's more about it being a bigger part of Motorola's Java strategy than it is about the efficacy or viability of Linux."
:-/
That's just wrong. The story is about selling more phones. How to do that. Easy: Put (java)games, (java)PIM applications, (java)Chat, (java)anything on the phone. A second bonus is ofcourse that linux runs on top of the PPC arch that motorola develops. It's also worth noting that now that Apple is flirting with IBM motorola needs customers for it's PPC line. It all makes sense: Let one division of motorola use the chips that the other division produces.
I'm only worried about what all this does for battery lifetime of my phone
Thomas S. Iversen
The new, Linux-powered, easy-to-use SmartPhone! To make a call, just enter the IP address of each router!
is here. I can't find a picture of the device anywhere. Does anyone know whether it will run QTopia? If so, the QTopia platform (already adopted by Sharp and IBM) will be getting some useful momentum.
I'm old enough to remember when discussions on Slashdot were well informed.
I say this as someone who was actually contracting for Motorola, when a rant came down from management demanding that everyone use Motorola phones. I wonder if anyone was actually brave enough to actually tell him why none of the workforce were using their phones...
Anyway, I hope the situation has changed and management has gotten a clue. No one will eat a cake that looks like a giant dog turd even if it is made of delicious marzipan. The same goes for running Linux in a phone.
If you're a Swedish speaking Finn (like Linus), buy a Motorola. Otherwise go with Nokia.
And when speaking about Java applets running on phones. That has been done by both Ericsson and Nokia for a while now
And, in Japan, on Sony, Panasonic, Sanyo, Sharp, Toshiba, Dentsu, and others' phones.
Nokia is just buying its technology from Sanyo and passing it off as its own in Europe and North America, as is Ericsson with Sony's technology.
You just can't see it.
Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
Nowadays more and more companies sell various soluions based on Linux. Many of there include modifications to the kernel. Where's the source?
As far as I understand, they are required to provide the source to their customers, and they're can not prohibit by any means redistribution of the source by the customers.
But I have yet to see a website download section with source. What's happening? Do all those companies act as if the code was in public domain , or BSD-type licensed? What the hell??
The only thing MontaVista's site offers for download is some preview kit. It is an ISO image (uncompressed!!), "encrypted" by some stupid password which gets mailed once you fill out a ridiculously long form on their website and requires Flash 5 to run.
I'm downloading it right now, but I'm more than sure there ain't a trace of source to linux source there.
Have anybody got any GPL-d source from them? What holds you from putting it up on the web?
Come on, this shit shouldn't have begun to happen in the first place.
./lxnt
tell that to PIXAR who just purchased a 1024 node blade server running Linux.
Tell that to SGI who have a 64-way Itanium running Linux...
Ok , perhaps I'm being slightly sarcastic but IF they decide to make the phone into a handheld computer too then the opportunites to hack it could be quite large especially if it runs TCP/IP over the phone network. Ok , this can happen already with handheld computers but people who use them tend to be a bit more tech savvy and almost expect something nasty to happen. Joe and Flo Sixpack however won't have a clue and won't understand what it means to have their phone "owned" or "rooted". Imagine a virus running on the cellphone system.... nasty...
And when speaking about Java applets running on phones. That has been done by both Ericsson and Nokia for a while now.
As indeed they have been on Motorola phones.
I believe they were the first in fact, on a US iDEN phone a couple of years ago, which hosted it on VxWorks.
It's good for Java, but Motorola had already committed quite heavily to Java on their phones - heck, you can't move for Motorola adverts promoting Java games on their phones on UK TV right now - just everyone expected them to choose Symbian as the platform for running Java on their next-gen phones, so this is quite a surprise.
You're right that it probably won't give Linux any end-user visibility, but it's still a big win, and it gives embedded Linux vendors a big name they can point at and say to their potential customers - "Look, they chose Linux, why don't you?". Good for MontaVista, good for other embedded Linux vendors, good for Linux as a whole.
This certainly seems interesting, having also political consequences discussed above, but my understanding is that only a single process will execute on these mobile phones: the Java(tm) interpreter.
Rationale: Licencing Symbian or Windows (whatizzit? Mobile Edition?) for a mobile phone may shorten the development cycle, but a) it costs real money (with per-unit charges) and b) you give up control of your platform. With all solutions you will need to code support for your extra gadgets (e.g. the camera, keypad circuitry, LCD screen, battery status, and let's not forget the basics: GSM chipsets). Since the phone will use Java, it will need to support the MIDP, therefore the interpreter will need to have access to these features anyway. So, why code your OS (as in, what the user will see on the display) in native code when you can use Java?
I'm currently planning to buy an Ericsson T800 when they'll be available where I live (Greece); I'd buy a Motorola phone if I could get my hands on all the source and java classfiles (the decompiler is your fried, together with the global search-and-replace - think unobfuscation). However, I don't expect I'll get the source for the more nifty features of the phones....
(Posting this using a laptop to an Ericsson T39 to the 4.0-second-round-trip-time GPRS network.)
The article talks about MontaVista, but they just purchased Lineo's Embeddix assets.
Kind of weird
I'm not so sure. For starters, modifying GPL'ed software does not require you to make the source available, distributing it does. The software isn't, strictly speaking, being distributed, the phone is. I'd imagine that this would still count as distribution for licensing pruposes, but I can see the potential for Motorola to claim that it's not necessary. Obviously, the right thing for Motorola to do would be to make the source available, I guess we'll have to wait and see.
I'm the big fish in the big pond bitch.
All that said, Nokias have cool games, so many accessories and addons it's almost hard to fathom. BUT, they get VERY poor reception across the board. My Mitsubishi phone had great reception, great battery life, took standard home accessories, and was easy to navigate; but was basic and sorta heavy, not clunky like the "sattelite phone sized original analog Motos" but still clunky.
The point is, every phone has it's problems. My current is a Sony Ericcson t68i, I like it more than any phone I have ever had. I just feel like I'm going to break it. Accessories are few and far between, and the neat features need refinement.
As for Moto embedding Linux, this will only be of use if they can get full functionality of a small PC by using the PowerPC, iPod like size (with hard drive of iPod too), color screen, great battery life. Then, maybe if it can run some of the Mac emulators out there under it's Linux, like the Sharp Zaurus can, then that would be beyond useful, if not revelutionary.
Yell & scream & rant & rave... it's no use... you need a shaaaave ~ Bugs Bunny
I think what Motorola is doing is smart - like the article said, by using Linux/Java they're controlling their own destiny a bit more. The part that I don't understand is that Motorola is part owner of Symbian. It seems to me that they would want to promote that platform instead of going off in a different direction entirely.
But if you just ignore that for a sec, I think choosing Linux is the right thing to do from a power/scalability perspective. Symbian, for example, was designed from the ground up to run on mobile devices. But since these devices are now becoming more and more powerful (like a circa 1995 laptop) you're going to need an OS that can take advantage of that power in an open way and I'll vote Linux any day (like all the rest of you, I'm sure).
Think about this: Motorola (and Nokia) are both going to sell around 400 million smart phones in 2003. Even if a very small percentage of these phones initially use Linux, it will still mean millions of Linux "installs". Motorola could soon be the #1 Linux computing platform.
If you check out Motorola's home page, you'll also see that they've launched a reference platform for OEMs called i.Smart to base their mobile phones on also. According to this article on InfoSync.no, this will allow OEMs to create smart phones in as little as 90 days with support for Symbian, eLinux, Windows CE or PalmOS. This is pretty cool, but what is disappointing is the complete lack of WCDMA/CDMA2000 (i.e. 3G) support in either the A760 or the i.Smart reference design. They need to just pay Qualcomm some ransom money and get on board the CDMA train, IMHO.
I've got lots more thoughts about this. From what I've seen so far, I can't tell if Motorola is going to follow Sharp's example and make the Java Apps peers with the native apps using Personal Java, or whether they'll restrict the functionality and use J2ME, which keeps Java apps in a tightly controlled sandbox. That could really make a difference in the number of apps available and usability also.
Anyways, cool news to see.
-Russ
Me
I'm getting tired of stories like this and "Home Depot to use Linux in cash registers." First, we're just talking about the Linux kernel and some device drivers. We're not talking about X11, bash, a window manager, KDE, Mesa, or anything like that. Just a kernel and some device drivers.
This has nothing to do with the general "popularity" of Linux. Test time: Name any of the 10+ other operating systems used in embedded devices? Can't name them? Exactly.
There's getting to be a more than a little annoying "Linux is the only operating system and should be used in everything from PCs to microwaves" rally. Doesn't that sound a whole lot like what Microsoft has been saying since the mid 1990s?
I've following the OS debate for smartphones for a couple years now, because I am from Europe an seemingly everyone wants a cellphone and smartphone technology eventually trickles down to normal phones as well.
This means that the number of phones (and therefore of OSs on them) will soon surpass or is already bigger than the number of PCs. Any OS that will dominate that market will have the biggest installer base of all OSs in the world and will sell more licences than MS.
The most interesting event was when Psion gave up its control of their embedded OS called Epox and now shares control with Nokia, Ericsson and Motorola. The new name is Symbian.
Motorola is the only one that for some reason still can't make up its mind how to power their smartphones and has been trying j2me for a while now. Siemens and Samsung got on the Symbian train last year.
The problem with Symbian is that it is still very unstable on some phones which is the reason why they don't give out kits for the P800. Many apps seem to stall the system.
Imagine writing a killer app for an OS that dominates the mobile market. Symbian is pretty new and still doesn't have many of the most basic app written for it. Any future Bill Gates readings this?
Good Luck! If Symbian will ever turn out to dominate. And the chances are still pretty high.
Our concern is about making the best experience for developers. We feel it's going to be the developer experience that drives these devices, not the operating system itself," Kaim said.
Uh, so let me get this straight.
What he really said was "Even though Microsoft is aware our software products may be bloated and massive memory hogs, the fact that developers have a really neat toy to utilize these systems is what will make our device the leading one."
I get that right?
-- El Sacarino tiene gusto de la chocha
Ok, a little tough to slog through, but check here. It's all in Japanese, but if you look to the bottom left you'll see a category labeled Java. The columns to the right show the maximum size for Java applications (I think it's the maximum size for all Java apps, not for individual apps). Along the top are the names of the models (D05, D06, K51, etc.)
A key for the models:
- D : Dentsu
- K : Kenwood
- N : Nokia
- P : Panasonic
- SA: Sanyo
- SH: Sharp
- T : Toshiba
If you look around a bit, you should be able to find better links, but this is the first one that came to mind. Sony doesn't make phones for J-Phone, just Docomo and AU, so they aren't listed.Or, just for fun, even though you probably can't read it, check out the phones at J-Phone's official page. Note that non-full-color phones are no longer sold in Japan, and that all J-Phone phones come with built-in cameras. One of the new Docomos has TWO built in cameras (seems a bit excessive to me, though).
Technically, this should be a no-brainer. PalmOS is effectively a 16bit platform dedicated to organizer functions, with other uses as an afterthought; and Palm is currently in transition between PalmOS4 and PalmOS6 anyway, two very different architectures. Microsoft's phone platform is the usual bloated, buggy, messy stuff we have come to expect from them. Only Symbian is pretty decent, but it is proprietary. The Linux APIs (i.e., UNIX/POSIX) have a three decade history. They are mature and scalable to small devices, and Linux itself is as well. And huge numbers of programmers know the Linux APIs.
By 2006, IDC believes Symbian will have increased its market share in powerful phones to 53 percent from its current 46 percent. Microsoft will have about 27 percent of the market, with Palm at 10 percent. IDC predicts that Linux could take as much as 4.2 percent.
I see: the reason why Linux will have a hard time is because we say so.
"It's more efficient to work with (Linux) because there are more modules we won't have to develop ourselves." [...] "By using Linux instead of Symbian or Windows, they are in control of their own upgrade cycle,"
Seems like Motorola really has their act together. Good to see. If they deliver on their promises, my next phone is likely going to be from Motorola.
you really should TRY and get out of the house a little. And - here's a tip - that Starfleet uniform with you lunch all down the front is NOT exactly a babe magnet.
That was classic intercourse!
"Lets keep politics out of our technology purchasing decisions"
Impossible with M$ running rampant, I'm afraid.
That was classic intercourse!
The OS itself and its subsystems (GSM/GPRS, IR/BT, camera, voice recognition, etc) aren't written in Java; they're written in very tight, small, fast code, usually C or C++ with bits of assembler. But the phone supports a Java engine so it can run Java apps, which makes it easy for 3rd party developers to target the phone. Like Microsoft did with Windows in the 90's: encourage the developer community, and your product gains mindshare.
Chuck Norris: Socialism == a thousand years of darkness.
A year ago, I was working on Motorola's primary phones. In fact, I worked on the v60, v120, and a couple others.
There is no way in hell I think that Motorola will use Linux on most phones....maybe the high-powered ones. I won't name any specifics out of fear of breaking confidentiality, however their current phones operate a real-time OS on a microprocessor that is roughly fast as a 80386. Flash ROM storage was less than 16mb, and RAM was less than a megabyte. Real-time tasks had to respond to an interrupt in less than a microsecond for certain things.
Sure, they can build a phone that runs Linux. However not without fuel-cell technology to power them. Linux will have to run as a separate task in a real-time kernel. And to do so will require a more powerful processor which of course requires more either a much-larger lithium ion battery, or something revolutionary like fuel cells.
Once again another Java win too.
It may be Linux based, but it can run Java apps along with the rest of the phone world.
"does this use of Linux in Motorola phones make it less likely that it will be used widely as a desktop? I think Linux is rapidly becoming viewed as an appliance engine."
In breaking news today, IBM, HP, and Sun Microsystems have officially dropped their plans for Linux becuase, quote, "Linux is just an appliance engine."
Meanwhile, sales of desktop Windows have crashed as the public has come to terms with "Windows only being a game console OS."
I guess I would tell the parent to "lighten up" if he was not already modded "Insightful."
Before you mod me down, please realize that I could have been a coward and used my mod points to mod the parent down, instead of posting a reply.
Sdelat' Ameriku velikoy Snova!
Remember that Motorola owns Metrowerks. Metrowerks just recently bought Embedix, the company that formerly was Lineo. That means Motorola now controls a major chunk of embedded Linux intellectual property. Yes, lots of it is GPL, but Lineo also developed a lot of their own IP around the Linux platform that Motorola can now leverage.
Linux will have to run as a separate task in a real-time kernel. And to do so will require a more powerful processor which of course requires more either a much-larger lithium ion battery, or something revolutionary like fuel cells.
Or a more efficient but faster processor. You've heard of Moore's Law right? Use a smaller feature size, maximum clock speed goes up, power consumption goes down. These phones are going to have to be more powerful anyway, they're going to be expected to drive colour displays that can play video and run Java games at decent speeds. If you've got a processor that can do that then the extra overhead of RTLinux or RTAI or LXRT to give you sub-microsecond interrupt response is pretty minimal.
Note that Symbian is only available on high-end phones right now too, but it's expected to trickle down to the lower-end once the processors, memory and screens that can handle its requirements become cheaper. Symbian isn't really any lighter than a properly-stripped Linux anyway, it needs at least 8MB RAM to be properly usable and prefers a lot more.
Apparently this phone is so clever that if your wife calls when you're with your mistress, the phone will kernel panic.
Computers are useless: they can only give you answers. -- Pablo Picasso
By switching to an established OS, like Linux or MS's new phone OS, they can by-pass the problem of writing a new OS, maintaining it, testing it, etc.
I would say the switch to Linux is more a financial one, as Motorola hasnt been on the money-making end of things for quite a while (RISC processors losing out to Intel, Apple probably going over to Intel, losing the cell phone wars to Nokia, etc). Since there is about zero cost using Linux as their base platform, they can bypass the royalty fees to MS, and increase their profit per phone. Or they could just charge less per phone, but I would imagine they are more interesting in profit per phone than volume sales.
Manipulate the moderator system! Mod someone as "overrated" today.
We all know that technical merit is the sole deciding factor of sucess in the market, right?
People who think they know everything really piss off those of us that actually do.
First, we're just talking about the Linux kernel and some device drivers.
:)
And that's what Linux is. A kernel. This might be one of the rare cases where everyone agrees we can leave off the "GNU/" at the beginning, so just hush up!
This has nothing to do with the general "popularity" of Linux.
It has everything to do with the general popularity of Linux. Name five other kernels that scale from cell-phones to super-clusters.
"Linux is the only operating system and should be used in everything from PCs to microwaves" rally. Doesn't that sound a whole lot like what Microsoft has been saying since the mid 1990s?
The big difference is that Linus isn't trying to leverage his desktop monopoly into control of cell-phones and super-clusters. He's just offering his software up to the world, and letting the world make its own choices. Moreover, Linus isn't saying, "here's my system, you should use it everywhere," he's saying, "here's my system, if you like, you can adapt it to fit your needs," and people are responding, "oh cool, look, I can adapt it to fit here...and here...and here...."
But the biggest difference is that Linus isn't saying "use my software to run your cell-phone and super-cluster, or I'll do everything in my power to lock your system out of talking to my desktop."