LGP Announces Game Development Project

michaelsimms writes "Linux Game Publishing is excited to announce our newest project to increase the appeal of Linux gaming. We are sponsoring the development of a from-scratch Linux title! We are looking for developers to work in a team to produce this game, and we will be publishing the game they make! If you are interested, please follow the link to our detailed announcement and within there you will find the rules, requirements, and application process. If you have wanted to get into the gaming industry, if you love playing games, and if you are a creative thinker, not afraid of a challenge and a bit of risk, then you need to take a look." I don't know whether to be happy about anything that promotes Linux gaming, or disappointed that people are being asked to work on a commercial project without a salary.

Comments

No Salary?

[aelfwyne]

A commercial game with no salary for developers? Count me out - in fact with that attitude I probably won't buy it either.

Re:No Salary?

[meshko]

Of course its a troll, but it's the troll inpsired by the editor ("... or disappointed that people are being asked to work on a commercial project without a salary") so I'll bite.

They say that if the game brings in profit, the developers will get it. I think this is completely fair. Of course I'm not sure if that can be called sponsorship, because the really contribution from the LGP only starts when the game is well on its way (they will help to find artists etc).
I beleive this is quite fare and makes sense. Finding good Open Source developers is possible. Finding good artists is harder. Organizing the development process in any professional kind of manner is hardes. If they will make sure that selected developers have a clue and really provide them with artists and QA -- they have a chance (unlike 99% of game projects on SourceForge, for example).
My opinion is that it's a good idea and really nice of them, but I think that chances of success are around 20%. Success being a released title, of course.

Re:No Salary?

[AlternateSyndicate]

My bad, it's 70% instead of 90%, but my point still holds.

Re:No Salary?

[stratjakt]

Whats 70% of 0 again, anyways?

If linux gaming had any commercial viability, EA and the other big dogs would be all over it. Not to mention that it's very hard to develop a commercially successful game in the first place, regardless of platform.

Without at least a windows port, and *very* aggressive marketing, this will make no money.

Re:No Salary?

[ThrasherTT]

Without at least a windows port, and *very* aggressive marketing, this will make no money

I argue that WITH a Windows port, AND very aggressive marketing, this will have approximately 0.01% chance of making any money. How many people out there have gotten a group of people together and tried to make a game on their spare time? How many have succeeded? How much did the successful groups and/or their publishers spend on advertising, and how much did they gain in sales?

Game development is VERY HARD, and game marketing isn't a bag of easy either. Add to that the fact that today's linux game market is so tiny, and you have a recipe for "being in the red."

Re:No Salary?

[tomhudson]

another quote from their site:

Artwork/Level Design/Music When the development has reached a suitable point where we know more about the art, level, and music requirements (if any), we will expand the team to include people with appropriate non-coding skills.

So, the coders will find out that they have to share their cut with people doing the art and music, who will also be cut in on the same basis - "if we make money, you make money"

Then, "well, we also need marketers, etc, so they're taking a cut of your royalties too"

Just my opinion, but anyone stupid enough to do this has:

1. Too much time on their hands
2. Not enough experience swimming with sharks

Here's their game scenario: You're the leader of SimThisBusinessSux, and you have to figure out how to get everyone to do the hard work, while you sit back and play big-shot.

It's for authenticity...

[Quarters]

disappointed that people are being asked to work on a commercial project without a salary.

How else could they hold 100% true to their offer of, "Do you want to get into the gaming industry"?

Good intentions, but a dumb method I think

[laetus]

Since they're not paying the developers (but are generously paying the publishing & distribution costs), why not open it up to a competition? Tell people, look, everyone can participate. The deadline for submitting your game is (DATE). After we receive all entries, we'll decide which is the killer Linux game and publish it.

Sounds better than simply, we're gonna choose 8 people and then let them come up with a game. Sometimes synergy in groups doesn't work that way.

Let individuals groups compete.

Re:Good intentions, but a dumb method I think

[e2d2]

Playing on your idea - what I would love to see is something similiar to Project Green light, where developers create game idea submissions, complete with specs, etc, and submit those ideas to a game development company, who in turn chooses one game idea to be developed. It would be great publicity for the game development house and great for the developer that lacks the funding/tools necessary to publish a good game. The developer could also come to work for the game development shop after the project if both parties agreed.

Of course on the other hand the game development companies might not have a lack of good ideas and this is all a waste. But I think it would be a great way to promote the development house to the development community and others. Plus it would be a good tool for recruitment, many game developers simply start out building their own maps or add-ons and get offered jobs, this is simply a spin on that.

No Salary? So What?

[Anonymous Coward]

There are a good many open source coders who work on projects without being paid to do so right now. What difference does it really make whether the end result is sold or given away? Some things get done simply because people have a passion for doing them, and whether freeware or commercial, the product could help Linux. Earn your money, put food on your table, and if you're still looking for a creative outlet, here's your opportunity!

Wha?

[govtcheez]

How is this any different than the 10000 "Let's make a game!" posts seen on messageboards everywhere?

Re:Wha?

[Antity-H]

This is different in the way that LGP is already in for publishing the game when it is completed.
They won't have to fight their way through publishing companies to find one that will find their project insteresting among the hundreds such companies must receive each month

In addition, there is a high porbability that as soon as they have something with a shape, they will get subventions from LGP to help finish it

I am an idealist .. and so what? If LGP realy wants tu push Linux games they must know they will have to make a few sacrifices at the beginning. Afteward if they play it well, they will 'own' the linux game market

Not being paid?

[binaryDigit]

disappointed that people are being asked to work on a commercial project without a salary

In a way ANYONE who contributes to Linux is doing just that. When people like IBM et al selling product that in large part was written by individuals that will never be "paid" for their efforts, I don't see how this is any different. Is there anyone out there who contributes that thinks that their work won't eventually end up in a product that is sold (i.e. someone else will generate revenue from their efforts)?

I dunno...

[zeronode]

Working on a game is a long long process, and more often than not, deadlines are missed and toward the ship date, everyone pulls the all nighters. But they get paid for it. I'm not saying that people won't do this, but I think it would be kind of hard to hold down the day job, which pays the bills, and still work on this project and come close to the deadlines.

Then again, I could be wrong.

Won't work.

[supabeast!]

Open-Source/Free games for Linux will not solve the lack of games for Linux. The only way to get game developers to come to Linux is to develop a Direct-X like API that makes it easy to develop Linux-native games. Until that happens, Linux gaming will continue to revolve around WineX, id Software, Epic, and begging game companies to release Linux executables.

Given how unlikely it is that the Open-Source/Free software community could ever come together to make a decent cross-distro API, your best bet is to just subscribe to WineX.

Re:Won't work.

[kiolbasa]

How about SDL, developed primarily by Loki? Pretty decent so far, from what I've used of it.

Re:Won't work.

[Patoski]

The only way to get game developers to come to Linux is to develop a Direct-X like API that makes it easy to develop Linux-native games.

The existence of all the high quality Loki ports refutes this utterly. SDL, OpenGL and OpenAL are some noteable examples of cross platform and open APIs that are very useable.

The real reason you don't see alot of professional quality Free Software games is the lack of Free art and music assets. Coding is only about 10%-20% of the job of creating a professional level game. Why do you think one sees so many Free Software/Open Source board games, tetris, and old school arcade clone? Its because the art requirements on these types of ventures are very small. Coders grok the concepts behind Free Software but its a much more difficult job getting artists (and musicians to an extent) to understand and contribute.

The reason one doesn't see many commercial Linux ports is because the Linux desktop market isn't quite large enough for development houses to justify the effort (although this is beginning to change).

Re:Won't work.

[StarTux]

Huh,

Been living in a closet? We have SDL (http://www.libsdl.org) and FLTK (http://www.fltk.org). Not to mention OpenAL nor Miles sound system.

Winex is good for those games that either had a developer who would never port to Linux (aka Microsoft).

As for DirectX, well if you follow any game related mailing list you'd know DX9 has been causing a lot of issues with games...

StarTux

Umm. I'll do this too.

[Gannoc]

ANNOUNCEMENT:

I'm taking applications for people to make a product for me. I'm much more flexible, in that it _doesn't have to be a game_. It could be anything. How about a new type of car? Or some sort of exciting new food product?

Anyway, i'll be happy to introduce the team to each other. Then you guys can get to work inventing something fantastic. I won't pay you or anything, you just get together somehow and do it. W00t

When you're done, give me a call. I'll look at it, and if I think its a product that can make money, i'll market it, sell it, and keep 30% of the profits from it. Think about it though, if you invent something worth 10 million dollars, you make SEVEN MILLION DOLLARS. Thats a lot of money.

If your product is crappy, I'm not going to try to sell it or anything. I have a life, you know.

Sound exciting? Well, it sure sounds exciting to me. In fact, i'm not going to limit it to a group of 8, i'm willing to let the entire ./ readership start developing products for me!

Godspeed and Good luck!

The point of no salary

[michaelsimms]

We are not asking people to work for free. The situation is the same as when ANY game company is started, but we are giving the people assistance and guaranteed publishing.

Imagine, if you start up a game development company with some of your friends, you wouldnt expect to be able to go up to a game publisher and say 'hey, pay me every week and I'll make you a game'. In fact you'd be VERY lucky if even they reply to your phone call when you offered them a completed game.

The people working on this project will be starting a new company, but instead of the uncertainty, the 'is it worth our carrying on' - they can KNOW that they have a publisher, and they can KNOW it will get onto the shelves if they can get it finished.

Yes, its a risk, but it could pay them bigtime - if it works.

Re:The point of no salary

[cgenman]

We understand that you may have good intentions, and if you actually did guarentee publishing this would be a great deal.

But you don't.

At the bottom of your announcement, LGP commits to publishing the game but reserves the right to not do so if we feel that publishing will harm our company.. In essence, you do not guarantee publishing. You are guarenteeing that you have the option to publish, but that you have a convienient out if you choose not to do so. This is the most commonly abused clause in book publishing today, with many authors works tied up in legal tape surrounding the issues of optional publishing.

*Actually* guarantee publishing, and make some guarenteed publishing commitments (x amount or more marketing, x amount of stores, x amount for box art...), and you have a good deal. But remember, you're a publisher now. Nobody will give you the benefit of the doubt on anything because your fellow publishers employ more lawyers than developers. It's a risk, but a significantly smaller one than you are asking the developers to take.

And for god's sake, get a team of free artists and free level designers in on the thing before it is too late to have a complete game.

This sounds familiar

[revery]

Developers are obliged to make the minimum 10 hours a week commitment...

Let's see here, 8 people working at 10 hours a week. Is LGP also managing the team working on Duke Nukem Forever?

sold or given away?

[oliverthered]

The difference is everything.
I work on FOSS because I believe in freedom.
I would rather money didn't exist, so I don't want to put my efforts towards freedom into something the promotes consumerism.

(If they only charge for distribution 'costs', that's ok)

Hahahaha. Rock Band Companies.

[Gannoc]

I've used the term Rock Band companies before based on the high school rock band.

A bunch of kids get together and decide on a 'bitchin name for their band.

Then they scribble it on their bass drum.

Then, they actually start thinking about the music.

Looks like they're doing the same thing here. The first thing they have scheduled is to think of the name for the company, (and make sure you can grab the domain name!!!) then it looks like part 2 of the agenda is to invent a new genre of computer game. Well, wouldn't I like to be a fly on the wall in THAT meeting!

The cathedral, the bazaar and the committee

[dmorin]

This sounds like the worst kind of project management, honestly. Take a random sampling of developers, all with their own attitudes, skill sets, and motivations. It's like herding cats by default. Now choose a leader. How? During the first meeting? To steal from Cory Doctorow, what's the dude's whuffie? I don't know him from a hole in the wall. So the minute that I disagree with him I'm gonna get all tense and no longer be into it with the same passion that I would normally be. Sure, maybe there's a protocol for changing leaders, but all that means to me is that somebody in the group is going to want to change the leader *every single meeting*.

And what role does LGP play as far as leadership goes? If they see the team, leader and all, going down a path they don't like, can they pull rank? Then what? At any time can they keep the idea for the game, toss all 8 programmers, and bring in a fresh batch?

As I apply for jobs I find myself writing several times a day that a hacker who is passionate about what he's doing is 100x more productive than an average schmoe looking for a paycheck. Figure out a way to get a bunch of hackers together who are passionate about an idea *first*, and *then* keep them glued together with the paycheck. Not the other way around.

I think that if you want to do this, then find 8 friends that you trust and respect and then do the exact same thing -- name a company, think of an idea, and code the hell out of it. THEN, maybe, once you've got a demo, go talk to LGP.

Re:The cathedral, the bazaar and the committee

[michaelsimms]

You have some good points so I'll try and answer them.

The developers will all pretty much have one motivation - to create good Linux games. That will be a good starting point. Some of them will want to be in it for the money, some for the creativity. But the goal will be the same. Differences apart from that can sometimes be bad, sometimes be good for teamwork. You never can tell, it is the risk we all take starting a new company with new people.

LGP cannot simply pull the whole team out. We cannot pull any member out unless HALF of the team requests it. If the whole team is messing up and not putting their back into it, then we can tell them that they need to improve or they risk not getting a publishable product at the end.

The only direct leadership we will play is to supply a project manager to the group, to help them stay organised.

I agree 100% that passion is more important than someone looking for a paycheck, which is why we feel that this is a good thing. People applying for this will know they dont get paychecks every week, they are going to have to create something good first. They get out of it what they put into it. Schmoe looking for a paycheck wont even apply.

As for you rlast point, yes, if you have a good game, come tell us about it, we'll look seriously at any serious proposition we are offered.

Work on a game without pay? Silly!

[raytracer]

Next you'll be saying that people will just donate their work to, oh, I dunno, say create an entire operating system from scratch.

We all know that that will never work.

Re:Marketing

[michaelsimms]

We have resellers round the world and have products in physical packages already. The game will sell in a DVD-style box, same as many newer games do.

Re:Umm. I'll do this too.

[liquidsin]

Dear Gannoc,

I have devised a wonderful method for quickly factoring large prime numbers. I'm sure this discovery is worth quite a good bit of money but I have no knowledge as to how to go about marketing my idea or even patenting it. I would love to share my money with you, and maybe your friends too.

Thanks

I don't understand it

[NorthDude]

They are offering peoples the opportunity to write a game for Linux.
That's great in my opinion, even if the developers do not get paid.
I mean, no one ever got paid for creating Tux Racer? Are do they?

So, they don't get paid, but LPG offers to pay for the publishing AND the marketing.
In doing so, they encounter the risk of LOOSING money.
If the title do not sell well, THEY will lost money, not the developers.

BUT, they also state that they will give 70% of the money made out of selling the game and keep the remaining to pay for the afore mentionned publishing/marketing cost.
How can people see this as wrong is beyong my understanding.

Peoples work on project for free because they like it, for fun, to learn, etc. etc. and no one complains about it.
Now, a company offers those same people the chance to make money out of this work and all you can say is that they are bad?

As much as I like the free software community, at times I have much troubles understanding what all of you value so much.
Is it really "free speech" and "alternatives" or is it ONLY "free as in beer"?!?

Money isn't the only reward

[phorm]

For those that have always dreamed about making a good (and popular) game, it's not always about salary. I think that the fame and pursuant job offers for making a free game would more than make up for the lack of salary during development. If every 15-year-old was picking your title up off the shelf/net and saying "coool" - reading your name in the credits - don't you think that would be a fairly rewarding experience in itself?

You're setting yourselves up for failure

[TrebleJunkie]

I'll probably get trolled for this. Oh well. Troll me if ya gotta if you really wanna miss the point.

I'm sorry to be the one to say it, but as you've set up this process, you've doomed yourselves to failure.

Hiring the programmers first and the designers, artists, later, you're putting the cart before the horse.

You don't start making a moving by hiring actors. There's a script. A director. A lot of storyboarding. Conceptual Design. Location planning. Scene planning. Shot planning. You know, for the most part, how every piece fits together before there's any action in front of the camera.

A game doesn't start with programmers. A game starts with an idea. A concept. A concept that is then fleshed out by writers, artists, etc... Quite possibly one or two programmers/developers with a knowledge of whatever game engine will be used (and/or maybe helped choose the appropriate one in the first place.) are available to consult with the conceptual team and prototype some things along the way. But the code is more than likely the LAST thing to be written.

It's a shame. It sounds like an interesting project. It's one I'd certainly like to lend my artistic talents, writing, and imagination to. But it's going to fail unless things are done in the right order. You can't tell 8 programmers "make a game, we'll make it pretty and give it a plot and music and a look, etc... later." You've got to take the proper time to conceptualize your game _before_ you get programmers on-board.

Oooh, I have a better idea.

[Gannoc]

6 teams of 8 programmers each. Give the teams names like "The Lightning Crew" and "Project: Dynamite".

Then, let them compete with each other in a bitter struggle to earn the affection of LGP by developing the best game.

The contest can be punctuated by weekly challenges. Say, two teams have to play a UT2003 team deathmatch against each other... WITH THE MONITORS UPSIDE DOWN. The winners get use of a rendering farm for a day. The losers lose their internet connection for 48 hours.

Or, the teams need to rot13 encode the first page of Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy by hand, while a naked man squirts lemon juice in their eyes. The winner receives their choice of an O'Reilly book. The loser probably goes blind for a day.

Or, a chosen member of each team has to write a functioning HTTP server (text only!), while being forced to watch the goatse.cx website - Clockwork Orange style. The winner receives a 2.0ghz P4 system from Gateway.com. The loser has his liver pecked out by ravens.

Slowly but surely, a product emerges and is judged. Now _thats_ something that will propel the linux gaming movement forward. Hop to it.

Re:The point of no salary or how to get flamed.

[ebooher]

Ok, look. I'm going to have to admit to being a little naive here and .... why is my rear end suddenly getting warmer, please put the flamethrowers down until *after* the post. I don't really understand why so many people are so caught up in complaining about this.

I don't play games, typically, so I'm not your average raving fanatic ready at all times with my tome of useless time line knowledge on the whole of the gaming industry. However, I know that it is big business, and I also know that manufacturers are beginning to look in the direction of the gaming developers as the next level of high line computing.

But did Id software start out, fully formed. Leaping from the bushes, games firmly in boxes hidden beneath trenchcoats ready to make nefarious deals? Psst. Buddy .... need a game? One of the great things about online forums is no one really knows how old anyone else is, until statements like the one I am about to make are made. Then one dates themselves. But, I remember a time back in the days of dinosaurs when we had these little programs called "Shareware." I seem to remember that the original Wolfenstein 3D was shareware. Wasn't it out before Doom and Quake? The first 3D shooter of the genre? Even though Doom was the biggie, and apparently built modern gaming as we know it. The ol' Wolf was pretty "bad" back then. For all the youngsters, "bad" is a term indicating something was really "rad," "hip," or "cool." Which are all terms to indicate "Good." God I hope "good" is still in Webster's Dictionary.

These games, you see, were on a floppy diskette. You could pick them up all over the place, flea markets, the gas station, the grocery store. I kid you not, you could buy Wolfenstein 3D from my local grocery store. Then there were other true Id favorites. Duke Nukem. Which had three parts, or seperate games, if memory serves. All of them shareware. Written by some really imaginative people in a garage somewhere. All they ever asked for was like $10 - $15 bucks for a game. You mail them a payment, and they send you a code to unlock all of the game, or send you the floppy with the full game already on it.

Don't you think that all of these "High line Gaming Developers who would Shape the industry and our world as we know it" had day jobs? All of them did, I'm sure of it. Even if there day job was coding another project (maybe even another game) They weren't feeding their families on this. They were using it for the exact same thing that I read out of this.

A chance.

Plain and simple. They wanted to be noticed, wanted their software to be used. Wanted their games to be played. And shareware was so much more than games, they had spreadsheet programs, comic book databases, you name it there was a shareware program that could do it. Oh wait .... that is kind of like the GNU/GPL/OpSo software today. Software all written for a chance to get noticed and have the opportunity to do something really really cool. By really imaginative people.

I can't help but read through all the posts that are saying things like "This sucks." or "You suck." or even "You want me to code you something for free so you can make money off of it." and think to myself. How disappointing. No vision in any of them. Not a single imaginative soul in the lot. You don't seem able to see things in the larger perspective. This isn't about working for free. Hell, it can be argued that all of us work for free. It is about attaching *your* name to a project. Giving *your* John Hancock to the world of gaming. Something that Rare and InfoGrams and Sega and hell even Microsoft might notice

This is about screaming I to the world. Well I say I damnit. Crazy script kiddies that don't know how to do anything that doesn't come with instructions. If you can't click next, next, next then you think you can't do it. You have to have it all spelled out for you because you as a world are afraid, you're all terrified of failing. This has nothing to do with money, it has everything to do with knowing the whole world is laughing at you. But you know what. Sign me up.

That's right. Sign me up. I don't know a thing about C, or C++. I know bash shell scripting, I'm a UNIX administrator. I know some PERL and a little BASIC. Go on, laugh at me. That's right. I used to code games in BASIC for the Commodore 64. Bring it on. Because I'm not afraid. Whether you think that you can, or that you can not, you are right! And I tell you I can. I'll learn C, I'll learn C++, put my name on the list. Bill it as Ed Booher's Optika World VII. But give me my chance!

Mr. DeVille, I'm ready for my close up.