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NYT on RFID Tags
indros13 writes "The NY Times is running a story on the radio tagging of merchandise. Companies like Gillette want to make sure their razors are in stock and stores like Wal-Mart want to make sure you can find your paisley panties, size 10. But what happens to privacy when everything you buy can be tracked from store floor to door?"
Tracking is a good thing. We won't see the prices drop immediately because retailers never lower prices, even if their costs drop. It should hold prices at their current levels for a much longer period than usual, as shoplifting losses decrease to offset inflation.
Another good use will be for searches for stolen merchandise. Non intrusive searches will be possible instead of strip searches. In addition, police will be able to search homes without a warrant by scanning them. This shouldn't scare anyone, since only activated RFID tags would respond, so you don't need to fear that they will find other things. That's even better than a standard search with warrant!
Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I take my purchases to a clerk who rings them up, and to whom I give payment.
- someone spreading gossip than I am some pencil-pusher in a cubicle 1000 miles away.
The store already knows what I've bought. Big deal.
These sound like a much more effective shoplifting deterrent than the current tags that can be defeated with a tinfoil-lined purse (or fanny sack as geeks call them).
It would be nice to see a system of these tags taking the current 'self check-out' aisles even further: the products in the cart announce themselves to a kiosk which automatically tallies up the bill. For practical purposes, that's much more anonymous than the cashier.
I'm more worried about the cashier-whos-a-friend-of-a-cousin-of-a-dentist-of
Anyways, more fluff.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
"the same techniques that enable an electronic sensor to record data from an E-ZPass tag or an office door to open for people with chip-equipped cards in their pockets"
I know many who have EZ-Pass (mine was ordered and never came) and it has so many false positives for non-payment it's insane. Along with your fine you get a nice little picture in the mail of your car going through the toll even though they have that car in their EZ-Pass database!
My apartment building uses the electronic key lock with a motion sensor on the inside. I'd say it's broken about 5% of the time, which is a lot if that's where you are every day.
OddManIn: A Game of guns and game theory.
For any cool experiments? Is the transmitter range long enough to track my pet to within lets say 400 feet? Could they be hacked into some sort of packet network backbone or radio station?
I'm going to brush paranoia aside for now because I wonder what sort of cool things I can do with these little wonders. Millions upon millions of them all availiable whenever I purchase a product.
Could I read these RDIF tags myself? Could I drive past my neighbors and find out what brand lubricant they use by scanning their trashcans? Oh what fun! I can see it now, you heard it from me first, "War RDIF anarchy dildo driving!" As soon as these things are introduced, I'm going to drive around the bay area every garbage night and scan for people who have empty anarchy dildo packages in their trash, and mark it with some chalk (And on a map I will post on the net)
Man, this takes shaming peoples insecurities to a whole new level.
Probably about as much happens when your shopping cart contents are itemized at the cash register.
Come on. I mean, come on. This is getting stupid. "Oh, no, my rights are being violated, because the store is TRACKING THEIR OWN MERCHANDISE until such time as I actually pay it. Oh, woe is me. Woe woe woe."
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This is stupid.
Its not like Wal-Mart doesn't have security cameras every 10 feet that zoom in on you, the contents of your cart, what you are carrying, etc.
Also, its not like Wal-Mart doesn't keep records of everything you buy and when you bought them, which can be linked up to the timestamps on aforementioned security cameras.
Trust me, RFID tags on merchandise isn't going to harm your privacy in a store one tiny bit.
The
Unless you are stealing from the store, the clerk and the cash register know everything you buy anyway.
If it ends up having *any* impact on privacy, it would be too *improve* privacy. No matter what, the cash register system has the *potential* to track your purchases that you pay for. Currently, when you buy stuff, every individual item must be handled by the cashier to be scanned, so the cashier is intimately familiar with your purchase. If used properly, this thing could scan an entire cart without digging through every item. Items you want to hide can be hidden. They still are paid for, but the cashier only sees the total sum, not each purchase. Combine this with anonymous currency (only paper money right now) and individuals are in no way associated with their purchases, neither by humans nor by computer.
Afraid of those items being tracked after leaving the store? Rip out those tags when you are out of there.
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
...Faraday shopping bag?
Actually, that is an old shoplifter's trick.
Take 2 large paper shopping bags, like the one's from a department store. Cover one with aluminum foil, place it inside the other one (arrange foil so that it can not be seen).
TA DA! Faraday bag, blocks RF tags dead.
Eve Fairbanks says I drive a hybrid!LOL
I wonder if these would even work in an electronics retailer - say like Best Buy. You've got a wall of TV's, cell phones, radio, etc all over the store. Unless you had a large number of distributed receivers, how would you counteract the interference.
Nearly all store shelving is metal. In particular, Wal-Marts have those big 8 foot high shelves in certain sections of the store. Grocery stores are completely filled with metal shelving and refrigeration units.
it would be like the thick plastic armoring that music stores encase CDs and Tapes in
No, they are strips of "foil" just a few microns thick. They are very easily concealed. So far they are usually held on under a bit of tape but, they can be embedded into the materials that make up the product. Some manufacturers are discussing doing this. In the case of Gillette, the strip could be easily embedded in the plastic shell of the individual razor blade. RFID tags can also be easily laminated into the paper of books etc.
Take a US currency note, greater than one dollar, and hold it up to the light. You will(should) notice a milar strip embedded into the bill that denotes the face value of the bill. An RFID tag could be as simple as this milar strip. In fact, the tag could be even smaller that the milar strip in the bill.
Oh wait, my local supermarket does this already, and uses this info when I log into their online shopping section to populate my favourites list, so I don't have to bother searching for things I purchase regularly. So does Amazon. This is an infringement of my civil liberties because wasting my time is an inalienable human right... or something.
Seriously, what can someone actually do with my purchase history? Maybe target me with adverts for things I might want to buy? (no, I am not a good person to try to sell feminine hygein products to. And no I don't want to consolidate my debt, thank you. HINT TO ADVERTISERS: The only banner ad I have ever clicked on deliberately was for food.) Maybe they could use this information for blackmail, after all I wouldn't want it getting around that I make my own pizzas, or the men from Domino's will be after me.
Honestly, it's not like I buy things over the counter for spreading sedition. I use my other identity for that...
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
The way I see it is that it is their right and responsibility to gather that information. What business owner wouldn't want to have that kind of information? And while you are on their property you are subject to whatever legal things they want to do. If you don't like it... leave. Although I'd imagine it would only be crazy extremist people and theives that would go to such lengths.
Now if they tracked their goods past their doors... then I'd be signing whatever petition is required to get that tracking system out of there.
But think about it though... especially in walmarts of the world... 1/2 the fun of going there is switching where things are hung. So isn't it only fair that the people who work there can actually have the ability to find something for someone who can't find where another customer put it?
The fact that they continue to work for a very long time and the fact that they are, or can be, completely unique means that a store can identify YOU by your panties. National chains such as Walmart could track YOU and your panties all across the country. Suddenly they don't sound very nice, do they.
More power to 'em! Sooner or later they should be able to do this with those newfangled face recognition systems, anyway - and why should I mind? I was at that place at that time, it's their store - I want to know who is in my house at all times...
What's the problem?
Your credit card or debit card company knows what you bought? Funny, but mine don't. They see that I spent $107 at Fortinos and $89 at Walmart, but they DON'T see that I bought Lays BBQ chips and a big tub of jellybeans, and Walmart doesn't see what I bought at Fortinos and vice versa.
Sears and JC Penney specifically, give me an itemized list on my statement of what was purchased. (This can be QUITE handy for things like warranty issues, and also when the card gets used fraudulently).
Maeryk
Feminine Protection? What is that? A chartreuse flame thrower?
Sure, that's what they want you to think. ;-) It says here that some RFID tags can be read up to 300 feet away. (Alien Technology says its RFID tags can be read up to 15 feet away, but it would not be difficult to build a beefier transmitter and a more sensitive receiver that would make the range far greater.) <PARANOIA MODE=ON>The tags can supposedly be easily destroyed via a reader, but it's pretty easy to design an RC-timer circuit that would just deactivate it for a period of time.</PARANOIA>
Nothing for 6-digit uids?
I work for a company that sells to one of the worlds largest retailers. This retailer recently held a meeting with all suppliers in the division and stated that RFIDs will be used on all pallets entering the DC this year and all products sold within a couple years. The benefits such as walking past the checkout and knowing exactly what's in your cart was discussed. Inventory management is the really big benefit though. Concerns such as thieves potentially knowing what's in your cart as you walk to your car were also discussed. Someone also voiced the concern that thieves with proper equipment could know exactly what's sitting in your car. It seems like the retailers know what the risks are. They are seriously trying to reduce those risks but the benefits are far too great for them to ignore. We're just hoping that the price comes down. The tags cost half as much as our product.
Reminds of the system a co-worker and I tried to design about 7 years ago. The way it worked was that a bar-code scanning device (handheld or fixed-base, wired/wi-fi to broadband LAN in home)would scan UPC labels as family members used up their consumables. It would develop an ongoing editable shopping list/database and communicate (probably for a low fee, or no charge if retailers would agree)to the grocer's database and update the total cost of shopping including current sales/coupons/rebates for that day/week. The ultimate goal was to encourage competition between the retailers through the use of all their product datbases or through a centralized database through us or a 3rd party. Unfortuneately, it never materialized (yet, to my knowledge).
I agree...the supplier shouldn't track you inventory. But if they sent you an item with a tag, wouldn't you need a) a reader to know what was passing out the store b) a connection of some sort to send that back to the supplier.
In other words, the inventory isn't phoning home to the mothership - you'd have to work with the supplier to setup this sort of deal.
Of course, they would know what has left their truck into your store, but as you said, up til you sign for it, it's theirs anyway.
Personally, I'd like to start weaving the tags from items I bought into my clothes. Walk out the door in shorts and a tank top and the system thinks I am carrying a 25" tv, etc...
I have absolutely no problem with a store using RFID tags to track their own merchandise as long as the RFID is removed/expired when I leave the store. As many other people have said, this is not a privacy issue, it's just the store tracking it's own merchandise.
What I do have a problem with is walking into a store and having RFID tags embedded in my clothing read by scanners so salesdrones can target their pitches to me. Sadly, I don't expect to see this issue addressed until the first time a fetishist stalker is caught wandering a mall with an RFID scanner and following attractive women whose undergarments have the same RFID tag IDs that you see in Victoria's Secret.
Get a clue. What do you think club cards/saving cards are for at Grocery stores/Retail shopping centers? Just so you can get a discount? Think again.. Everything you purchase is recorded so the store can more accurately tell you what you want to buy through advertising. Check the back of your receipts when you check out, I doubt you will ever see one for dog or cat food if you have never purchased any items relating to a dog or cat. It's subtle now, but give it a year or two.. things will start to be more in your face.
Who says the RFID tag needs to stay in your clothes? Seems like I'm going to get a free RFID tag with every purchase that I can use as I please; after all, I paid for it. All I need is my own scanner.
Come on, when AOL started shipping their CDs in DVD cases and tins, which one of us wasn't thinking "Cool, a free DVD case... a free CD tin"?
What would you do if you had a whole boxful of RFID tags and your own scanner? Think about it. You'll be able to find your keys, your remotes, your books, whatever. All you need to do if figure out a way to read the RFID tag on the scanner when you misplace that.
"But what happens to privacy when everything you buy can be tracked from store floor to door?"
I hate to be the one to break this too you, but Walmart already tracks EVERYTHING they sell. Every purchase goes into these giant NCR Terradata setups back at their home office. They mine it for trends and such already and have been doing so for years. So this really don't change that. The real question is how to you make sure the RFID tag is really deactivated?
Sorry folks, but Wally World and Smas Club already track everything you purchase from them via Credit Card address information, or via membership information.
I've had replacement items show up on my doorstep for defective product recalls before I even knew there was a recall issue on items I have purchased from both locations...
Yeah, you're really private shopping alright...
Imagine someone with a portable scanner walking through the mall parking lot knowing exactly which recently purchased items are in each vehicle...
youch!
It is _really_ simple to 'deactivate' RFID tags. Just get one of your ham friends and have him hit it with about 50W on the frequency it resonates. That should be enough to liquify the antenna rather nicely and with no antenna, you've got no problem.
Why not simply put them on stickers that you can put on the box or on the thing itsels, or on those little paper tags with size and brand that always are attached to clothes?
That way you could physicaly remove the tag once you're home.
There is absolutely *no* reason what so ever to put the rfid in the product itself!
/.Mattsson - My native language is not English, so please don't whine over linguistic errors. (That's lame anyway...)
Wal-Mart, for example, has a database TWICE the size of all the U.S. Government, combined.
This strikes me as an urban legend. Think about it -- all the tax data, census data, GIS data, weather data, etc. etc. etc. must amount to far far more than it takes to maintain Wal-Mart's inventory and financial systems.
What is your source for this factoid? If it is true, I can't believe Wal-Mart is turning a profit!
In fairness, I'm not out to be a "privacy zealot". I'm out to make sure the poorly trained people they put at the front of the store, who are not poorly trained through any fault of their own, understand what THEIR rights are and are not. I don't mind the fact that MOST people consent to the search and as a result, my prices stay lower. I'll even admit *gasp* that I not too long ago, probably within the last 3 times I've been asked (somehow it doesn't happen very often) when the stupid alarm went off when I was going IN to a store, that I just handed my stuff to the person, told 'em to check it out and bring it to me when they were done while I went browsing through the store. They found the errant tag, a piece of merchandise from another store which had been mistakenly double-tagged, fixed it, and brought it to me. I couldn't tell you why, on that particular day, I didn't mind at all, but I didn't. The important point, as far as I'm concerned, is that it was my choice to make, and I made it. On a different day I might have said no, they might have asked me to leave, and I would have smiled, knowing that for the time being there's still enough competition in retail for me to avoid patronizing stores that I don't enjoy shopping in for whatever reason.
I do think it's critically important that enough people remember that they are not obligated to consent to J. Random MinimumWageGuy pawing through their stuff that it not become a defacto obligation. As it is now, if you don't play jellyfish, they at least act like they understand this. I'm not willing to get to a point where random employees actually believe they can stop me and search me without my consent.
We might get to the point where "privacy zealot" does need to become a protected class, though. What choice will there be if (if not when) every store decides to search your stuff on the way out? You have a theoretical right to refuse, but if that meeans in practice you can't walk in, buy stuff, and carry your property out the door, it's meaningless. A balance between the security rights of the store and privacy rights of the individual is necessary.