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Antibiotic Resistant Staph Antibiotic Discovered

edward.virtually@pob writes "CNN is reporting that a team of scientists has discovered an extremely effective killer of the antibiotic resistant form of staph infection occuring naturally in rock pools. Unfortunately, despite the obvious cheap potential availability of this cure, do not expect it to be cheaply available. The employer of the scientists, AquaPharm Bio-Discovery Limited, the story notes 'is keeping the identity of its MRSA-killing bacteria a closely guarded secret, and taken out patents on how they can be cultivated and used.' Oh well."

67 of 434 comments (clear)

  1. One of the best ways to make money... by Snaller · · Score: 2, Funny

    ...is to make make of of the sick.

    Other excellent ways are weapons of mass destruction and reality shows.

    --
    If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating
    1. Re:One of the best ways to make money... by Pxtl · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Oddly enough, I think the big problem here is not the drug company, it's the doctors. Antibiotic resistance is their fault. Go to any small-town non-prestegious hospital and you'll see doctors prescribing multiple high-power antibiotics for non-critical applications. These anti-biotics are powerful _because_ they are rare - by overusing them rather then getting the last use out of the simpler antibiotics, they doom the world to diseases resistant to even the strongest antibiotics.

      Larger, more prestigious hospitals have to keep in much closer touch with research (often being research-oriented themselves) and tend to be more aware of the problems of antibiotic abuse.

      Complex, rare antibiotics like this should not be needed - at least not yet.

    2. Re:One of the best ways to make money... by macbar · · Score: 3, Informative

      Maybe you could also consider how difficult it is for a doctor NOT te prescribe antibiotics? Some patients almost force you to do so, otherwise they just go to the doctor next door who will give them what they want...

      --
      -- The day Microsoft makes things that don't suck, it's the day they start making vacuum cleaners.
    3. Re:One of the best ways to make money... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Bull$hit, I say!
      If you'd do your research, as opposed to the kneejerk disgust with doctors many Americans have developed, the predominant cause of antibiotic resistance is: LIVESTOCK!

      WHAT?!?

      Yes, A MAJOR cause of antibiotic resistance is the highly common practice of farmers mixing antibiotics with their feed. A steady dose of antibiotics helps the animals spare some energy for getting fat and happy, instead of fighting off common infections, which means more meat for the farmers to sell. A hell of a lot more antibiotics get used by dairy cattle than by snot-nosed five-year-olds, exposing a lot more bugs to antibiotics than they ever could. As a mater of fact, vancomycin, one of the last, great "superantibiotics," capable of taking out MRSA, (sometimes called a "flesh-eating" bacteria) is gonna be undermined soon, because one of the "feed supplements" being used is very similar in structure and function to Vanco.

      Many doctors are trying hard to conserve the "big gun" antibiotics, which are HELLA expensive, for when they're actually needed, but that's occuring more and more. Plus, the fact that patients often demand an antibiotic when they've got a cold (which is a virus, and doesn't get TOUCHED by even the best antibiotic), and you've got a tragedy in the making.

      Not flaming, not trolling, just one Medical Student's experience.

    4. Re:One of the best ways to make money... by juushin · · Score: 2, Informative
      Not really - farmers are probably more to blame than doctors. The amount of oral antibiotics consumed by the agricultural industry would make your head spin.

      If you are going to blame physicians, you will have to blame patients as well. It is all too common that patients stop taking an antibiotic when they feel better - instead they should be taking it for the prescribed amount of time which insures that no partially-resistant microorganisms survive.

  2. Patenting.. by sporty · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I see nothing wrong with pantenting the process so long as the patent isn't abused.

    Remember claritin before the FDA deemed it fine to go over the counter? It was stupifying the price drop.

    I hope these people don't find the cure for AIDS. That would be one that would be ethically/morally wrong to abuse.

    --

    -
    ping -f 255.255.255.255 # if only

    1. Re:Patenting.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Why single out AIDS? Are you saying that someone abusing a cure for Ebola would be just fine? ANY abuse of medical patents should be morally and ethically wrong. Just because it happens to be AIDS doesn't mean it should be treated any differently than if it were a cure for a cold sore.

    2. Re:Patenting.. by elrolas · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Why would abusing a patent for a cure to MRSA be less ethical than abusing one for AIDS ? Merely because it affects less people ?

      When it comes to human life no abuse of patents should be allowed. Everyone should have a chance for a cure.

    3. Re:Patenting.. by budgenator · · Score: 3, Informative

      from the story. AquaPharm is keeping the identity of its MRSA-killing bacteria a closely guarded secret, and taken out patents on how they can be cultivated and used.

      1 they are not patenting the bacteria, its identity is secret. therefore guess the bacteria and its yours legaly, steal the secret its not yours.

      2 patents taken out cultivation, just use a different cultivation technic no problem.

      3 patent taken out on use, probably no way around that one depending on for broad or narrow the patent is.

      Aids has a cure it's death, that means AIDS is presently terminal. AIDS is also causative of death. Cold Sore are also terminal, but usualy doesn't cause death unless you have Aids also.

      There are quite a few diseases that cause death more grusome than aids like Hepititis B, ever wonder why a Hepititus B vacination costs so much?

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    4. Re:Patenting.. by llamalicious · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That would be one that would be ethically/morally wrong to abuse.

      What the fuck, just because it's highly visible and currently kills 100% of it's victims, just that *one* would be wrong to abuse?

      Pardon my soapbox, but I find any abuse of patents by pharmaceuticals to price fix or price jack the cost of their life-saving prescription medications to be completely and utterly offensive.

      In a few years, I'm sure more and more antibiotic resistant strains of bacterium are going to start popping up, with dire consequences for people in hospitals. I, for one, would not want someone in my family going under the knife, perhaps contracting a resistant staph infection and dying because of some bio-pharm's goddamned patent.

      Sure, they have every right to recompense for their research dollars, salaries, etc... but you know, as do I, that the patents will be used as a thin veil over corporate greed.

      IMO. YMMV.

    5. Re:Patenting.. by nbvb · · Score: 3, Funny
      Two wrong does not make a right.


      But three lefts do!

      Dah-dum-dum.

    6. Re:Patenting.. by ducman · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Let's see. Somebody had a disease. They had no way to cure it themselves. You did not give them the disease, but you do have a way to cure it. Why is it immoral for you to ask them to pay you for it?

      Oh, you're saying it's immoral for you to try to prevent someone else from stealing your method to cure the disease and giving it to the sick person for free.

      So why would you spend any time and effort to find that cure in the first place?

      --
      "We have nothing in common, your attitude annoys me, and your political views are appalling."
    7. Re:Patenting.. by nahdude812 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      One of the major misconceptions about pharmaceuticals is that "To make this pill costs about $0.12, why are they $15 each?" The problem is that this stuff requires years of research.

      This stuff isn't like coming up with an idea in computer technology where it mostly requires a lightbulb to appear over your head for a really good product to be invented, you see, in medical research, it's not about being able to come up with good ideas, those are easy, such as "AIDS cure" and "Cancer cure," it's trying mostly random things, fueled by only minor insight, and many years of trial and error to come upon something truly useful.

      I'm not sure what the regulatory process is behind something like a bacterial antibody is, but if it's anything like drug research, once it's discovered, you're looking at another 10+ years of preclinical and clinical trials. Literally billions of dollars must be invested before joe consumer can use it. And that's for a successful run. There are drugs that make it to the end of 10 year trials, and fail, with billions going down the drain.

      *THIS* is what you pay for, not the manufacturing cost.

    8. Re:Patenting.. by mfrank · · Score: 3, Informative

      You *do* know that the pharmaceutical companies spend more on marketing that they do on research? *THAT* is what you're paying for.

    9. Re:Patenting.. by bluprint · · Score: 2, Informative

      Marketing isn't focused towards the sick people always. Granted, sometimes it is, like with cold medicines. However, much of the marketing in the pharmaceutical industry is aimed at the doctors themselves.

      Sort of like, you've never seen a commercial for a machine to align your car, you just take the car to the mechanic. HE, however, probably *has* seen advertisments for these machines.

      --
      A modern day witchhunt.
    10. Re:Patenting.. by rogerz · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Who is preventing you from pursuing drug development for your (claimed) noble purpose?

      The point is: what are the rights of the producers of a given drug (bridge, piece of software, etc.)?

      The only answer appropriate to a free society is: they can do with their product exactly as they see fit, so long as they are not infringing the legitimate rights of others in the process. (And, to claim that one of the "legitimate rights of others" is for free/cheap/easy access to this product is to annihilate the concept of rights per se.)

      To summarize: if you want to give away the drug you develop for free "so that people won't suffer", noone should be able to prevent you. But, neither should you, or the majority, or the dictator, or whomever, have the right to force someone else to provide their drug on any other terms than they are willing.

      --
      If humans are mostly water, and beer is mostly water, then humans must be mostly beer.
    11. Re:Patenting.. by jvkjvk · · Score: 2, Informative

      I don't see how your comment agrees with the facts.

      For example

      1) The pharmaceutical industry is ranked as the most profitable industry by Fortune magazine. At the close of 2001, the top 14 pharmaceutical companies altogether made profits of $38 billion.

      2) In 2001, pharmaceutical companies spent more than $2.6 billion to advertise their prescription drugs, according to Intercontinental Marketing Services. This is up from $1.8 billion in 1999.

      3) Drug manufacturers consistently rank among the top two industry groups in money spent to lobby Congress. With more than 400 registered lobbyists -- nearly one for each of the 535 members of Congress -- the pharmaceutical industry spent nearly $97 million in 2000, according to records filed with the Secretary of the Senate and compiled by the Center for Responsive Politics.

      That's just the money given to congresscritters, not for the lobbyists themselves.

      4) Major drug makers spend nearly twice as much to advertise their medicines as to research and develop them, from Families USA.

      For example, Merck & Co. netted $40.36 billion in sales in 2000. Of that amount, 17 percent was profit; 15 percent was spent on advertising, marketing and administration; and 6 percent was spent on research and development (SEC filings).

      So don't go telling me how drug prices can't get any cheaper because of all the research money spent on them!

      Yes, "litterally billions" of dollars are spent on research, but *THAT* is only a small portion of where the money you pay for drugs goes.

      What you pay for is the pharmaceutical companies ability to maximize profits by having a single source of something that people need.

    12. Re:Patenting.. by HenryFlower · · Score: 2, Interesting
      You are including Medco's sales in your $40Bn figure. The correct figure for the Merck unit is aproximately $20Bn, of which the $2.4Bn R&D figure represents 12% of sales. Further, you need to take out the Medco proportion of G&A, advertising and marketing, and account for the "materials and production" line (which accounts for the cost of producing drugs) noted in the filing. Unfortunately, although the filing breaks out the revenue from Medco, it does not break out the costs, but the situation is clearly not as absurd as you suggest.


      Let's look at this the other way: if there was no ability to patent drugs, would Merck be able to afford the $2.4Bn in R&D costs? (The true cost of R&D is probably higher than this, as there are certainly some in-licensing costs to account for here, in which Merck purchases compounds from other companies).


      Yes, Merck spends a good deal on marketing, and makes a very healthy profit. The profit comes from the blockbuster model most of the large companies follow: there is some volatility in R&D spend, but much higher volatility in the market. A strong drug can generate orders of magnitude more dollars than the R&D spend. With such a model, pharma companies tend to blitz market, attempting to make as much as they can. The spend on marketing because they make even more in profits. All of that, however, presupposes that they have good drugs to sell.


      It is rare that any one company has a "single source" of something that people need. Much profit these days in is antihyperlipidemia drugs, of which there are many. Likewise, there are two major Cox-II inhibitor drugs on the market, with more coming. Of the top classes of drugs, only Pfizer has a semi-monopoly with Viagra.


      Part of the problem here is our irrational health care system. I'd agree with you (I'd imagine) that with a more rational healthcare system, the average cost per drug would be less, marketing costs would be less, and there would still be enough funding for R&D.

    13. Re:Patenting.. by puck01 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You bring up a good point, but it does not account for the full picture. First, publicly funded research is generally that, public. Anyone can build on it.

      Second, much of the research pharmacutical companies do is proving drugs are safe and they do indeed work. This process is extremely time consuming and costly. I resently posted on this very topic here.

      pasted below is what I said in the link, perhaps it will shed some light onto why drug companies have to do much of there own research, even if they start out on publicly funded research.

      puck


      Let me start by saying I am not an expert on the matter, but I believe I have more experience with this than most people here. I am almost a doctor and did some research at Monsanto doing basic research to develop new drugs.

      I can say fairly confidently your theory, at least in the pharmacutical business, is mostly wrong. Relatively speaking, developing the process to manufactor drugs is cheap. Once a compound had been identified, its not very hard to make it. The hard part in the drug business is *finding* new compounds, proving they are relatively *safe*, and finally proving they are actually *efficatious*. This is a very long and hard trail.

      Generally, one first starts by identifying compounds that have a desired property (they inhibit a certain enzyme or activate a cerain receptor for example). Candidate compounds are then tested for toxic effects to cells in petri dishes. From this several candidates move onto ex-vivo experiments or straight to animal studies. So far you've spent tons and there is no guarentee you'll get anything. Now you need to find a good animal model for the process you are interested in. You can easily spend a few millions on the animal studies while testing a compound or two. This process can be as short as a year if you get damn lucky.

      Moving on, you find one of the compounds seems to do what you want and without any bad effects. You're lucky but not done. It only gets more expensive. Now a large human study must be done to prove safey (ie. no bad effects in humans). So that study goes on for a year or two and again we can breath a sigh of relief, its not hurting anyone. Still not done yet, though. Another study must be carried out on humans to determine efficacy. We are talking a large multicenter study blinded and randomized comparing our new drug with placebo or another drug. These studies cost many millions of dollars and typically take years to carry out. If the company is lucky, the drug works and they cash in and milk the drug for what it is worth. By far this is the exception, now the rule as many, many compounds to do pass all these 'tests'. Basically, it is a long and risky process with absolutely no guarentee of success.

      So, anyway, my point is that the cost is mostly not in making the drug. An extemely larger amount of money and effort goes into reseach to prove safty and efficacy of the drug after screening and animal studies that are expensive as well.

      It would be grossly unfair to expect a single company to bare these costs only to have other companies copy the drug after it has been proven safe and effective.

      Do I side completely with drug companies? hardly. But they do have some valid points.

      puck

    14. Re:Patenting.. by nahdude812 · · Score: 2, Informative

      I'd sincerely like to know what your source for this is, and what you classify as a cost of research, and what you classify as a cost of marketing. I've worked in pharmaceuticals for years in many different areas, from a janitor right out of high school, to accounting, to marketing, and now I work for a marketing firm that specializes in pharmaceuticals. My mom and both of my brothers have worked in pharmaceuticals for many more cumulative years than me, in numerous areas of research.

      Let me tell you what I observe being the case, and what I suspect is the basis of your claim.

      Pharmaceutical A spends $X billion on marketing. This covers TV and print ads, direct marketing materials, product literature, product packaging, etc. For the things that are done in-house by employees, we only collect information on the costs of the tangible things, and ignore wage costs. For things that are outsourced (there's *lots* of this), we look only at the final pricetag. For a successfully run national campaign, we may be talking about $3-4 million dollars. This would, of course, include the salaries of the people working for the outsourced company, as their salaries are part of the pricetag. In marketing at a pharmaceutical, usually many more man hours go in from outside companies than inside companies. It's easy to inflate the pricetag like this (which perhaps you should as their salaries are being marked up for profit). The staff of marketing individuals at the pharmaceutical are paid a range of $50,000 to $150,000 for the execs. On average though, they probably make $60-70,000.

      When it comes to research, statistics are collected regarding, again, all of the tangibles, which are things like cages for animals, food for animals, wholesale chemicals to make drugs and test compounds, etc. This figure may only make it to several million dollars, perhaps a billion for a research intensive company.

      What isn't considered is the salaries of the individuals running that research. This is *not* outsourced ever, aside from consultants, but money to pay consultants comes from the same place as the money to pay employees, and so isn't probably wrapped up in the final figures. Consultants in the research area maybe make up 25% of the total research employee base, and usually in the lower down jobs.

      The non-technical jobs here go for $40-50,000, and the technical jobs here start at $70,000 and run well in to half a million dollars for ONE person. Yes, that's right, pathologists (who is to a doctor what a doctor is to a highschool dropout, usually requiring 16-20 years of education) frequently make more than some very big wigs on the corporate side. Then there are bonuses *required* to be paid to the managing pathologist for a drug. This is the guy or girl who in the end reviews all the available data and puts his or her signature on the final research report and says "This is safe for human use, and all these data are accurate." That comes at a very high risk, there is no real way this person can verify that numbers weren't fudged, and if something goes wrong with the drug after it hits clinical, *they* are very liable to be sued for many millions of dollars.

      The mean salary of technical persons in a research division is probably close to $100,000; there are many doctors involved in this process.

      The payroll for a moderate research division of a medium to medium-large pharmaceutical is probably on the order $12-15 billion dollars. I very much doubt that many pharmaceuticals are spending as much on marketing, including salaries, than they are spending on only salaries of personnel in research.

      Plus, have you considered the cost of insurance when a drug goes clinical? Insurance premiums for pharmaceuticals tend to be on the order of several billion dollars a year.

      Again, I'd truly like to see your source, and to verify their data on my own.

  3. And they shouldn't make money why? by Christopher+Bibbs · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Why would anyone expect that a company would spend all the time and resources to discover a new cure, only to release it to the public? If they weren't going to try and make money from the effort, they would probably never have attempted it in the first place.

    To quote Cartman, "Damn hippies."

    1. Re:And they shouldn't make money why? by ketamine-bp · · Score: 2, Insightful

      They should make money, yet, they should make themselves a living, not a luxery. In fact, I believe that anyone working in the pharma/biochem/medical field should have this _basic_ principle lie in their head.

      And no, I am no communist. But I do think being humane is the 1st rule in the capitalist world. If not, I think our world's near its death of humanity.

    2. Re:And they shouldn't make money why? by InterruptDescriptorT · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This isn't some cure that they genetically engineered, spending billions of dollars to splice DNA into an organism. It was literally 'found' in a rock pool. They stumbled across it. That should not give them exclusive rights for 20-30 years (including sneaky tie-in patents after the original patent has expired) to sell this potentially life-saving cure at inflated prices to the world. Rather, this find ought to be shared with researchers who may find additional ways to apply it to other illnesses and bacteria-fighting medicines.

      --
      Karma: Excellent Birds (mostly as a result of listening to Laurie Anderson)
    3. Re:And they shouldn't make money why? by laughing_badger · · Score: 2, Funny
      It was literally 'found' in a rock pool.

      Yeah, the way that they just happened to have the team of scientists playing team building games with sandcastles nearby when that MRSA infected hobo with the rotting leg tripped into the rock-pool and then leaped out cured - hell! What a stroke of luck!

      Just think, the company might have had to spend millions on computers and lab equipment if that hadn't happened.

      Sorry, just had lunch and my brain is stuck on 'sarcastic'.

      --
      Help children born unable to swallow - www.tofs.org.uk
    4. Re:And they shouldn't make money why? by IamTheRealMike · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Why would anyone expect that a company would spend all the time and resources to discover a new cure, only to release it to the public? If they weren't going to try and make money from the effort, they would probably never have attempted it in the first place.

      That's not an argument for being able to artificially restrict supply of a potentially life saving drug, that's an argument for rethinking how R&D is performed in our economy.

      Realistically, if people are dying because our brand of capitalism requires artificial scarcity in order to get research done, then we need to change our economic system sharpish, not just write it off as "oh well, life isn't fair".

    5. Re:And they shouldn't make money why? by bunratty · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You obviously have no idea how much money it takes to conduct studies that prove the drug safe and effective. This needs to be done before the FDA and other drug agencies approve the drug for use. It can take millions of dollars to conduct just one study, and usually multiple studies are needed to test the safety in kidney patients, the elderly, and the young. If drug companies couldn't make billions of dollars a year for about a decade from "blockbuster" drugs like this, there wouldn't be any drug companies at all, and thus no new drugs.

      --
      What a fool believes, he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.
    6. Re:And they shouldn't make money why? by ackthpt · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Why would anyone expect that a company would spend all the time and resources to discover a new cure

      The optimal word here is discover, not create. There are restrictions, in some countries, on patenting something which occurs in nature or a natural process.

      e.g. I find an algae growing in a particular pond which clears up a skin rash. I take this algae to my lab, and perform some study on how it reacts with the affliction and whether it has any really bad side effects (like the rash is actually my immune system fighting some fungus, the algae has a narcotic affect on the immune cells and the fungus left free starts to eat my skin cells) If it all turns out great, I apply for patents for such clever things as:

      Process: Place algae in water, under light, feed certain organic solutions, remove algae, dry, mix with mineral oil as a salve, bottle, good for 6 months.

      Patents barring encroachment of genetic engineering other, similar algae to produce the same effect.

      --

      A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
    7. Re:And they shouldn't make money why? by haystor · · Score: 5, Interesting

      "Found" in a rock pool isn't exactly how it all came about either. They have probably looked thousands of places cataloging millions of strains of bacteria. Its not like they wandered up to a pool and the damn thing had a sign on it.

      If its so "obvious" that it should be common knowledge just because it was found in a pool, how come it wasn't stumbled upon before? The fact that it has been found now is good indication that drug companies have been encouraged to look for such things.

      I do think it would be an interesting economic model though to put a bounty on certain types of drugs, say $2 billion for a antibiotic-resistant staph antibiotic. When funded by the whole world, numbers like $10billion for major drugs wouldn't be that high. Insurance companies would likely offer bounties as well.

      --
      t
    8. Re:And they shouldn't make money why? by TopShelf · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And who's to decide the difference between a living and a luxury? And for whom, between the researchers, the assistants, the support staff, the investors who provided the means to undertake the endeavor, etc.? That's what we have a market for, so society as a whole can make those judgements through everyday transactions. The incredible pace of medical research these days is, in large part, a function of the neverending demand (expressed through a willingness to pay just about any price for better and newer medicines) that provides financial incentives for continued investment. Plain and simple - they're meeting a demand, and are getting rewarded for it. Good for them!

      --
      Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
    9. Re:And they shouldn't make money why? by nomadicGeek · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It was literally 'found' in a rock pool. They stumbled across it.

      I guess having a bunch of scientists on the payroll travelling around the world searching, testing, developing methods to mass produce it, doing clinical trials, seeking FDA approval, etc. is practically free.

      Hell, they probably found it in the first rock pool that they looked in.

      Sounds like maybe I should get into this easy low risk business. Sounds like an easy way to make the big bucks.

      All kidding aside, somebody has to front the money for this research and it is very expensive and very risky. It is not uncommon to spend 10's of millions of dollars and never see a dime in return. When they do find something, they have to make enough profit off of it to make up for money they lost on all of the things that didn't work out. They also have to be able to invest in the research to find more products.

    10. Re:And they shouldn't make money why? by Rich0 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This is the kind of ethos we need to see in the medical industry. People who want to benefit the world doing so for that purpose. I realize there are a lot of people in the field that do just that--unfortunately many of them work for people who don't share their sentiments.

      Keep in mind that I can develop C code using my $400 PC running linux and gcc. The folks who developed gcc probably had to use $200 PCs and a $1000 compiler package. Still, it is a one time expense, after that you are just donating your time.

      Analyzing soil samples for antibiotic compounds requires a lab outfitted with safety features (so you don't burn down your house or breath in cancer-causing fumes), equipment (like a $50,000 HPLC or GC-MS), reagents (culture media, chemicals, etc), disposal costs (I hope you don't plan on dumping said chemicals down the drain), etc. The cost of operating a lab is quite substantial - even in academia where worker safety isn't as big a priority. To run a lab you have to have money. If you have money, that also means that at any given time somebody is trying to sue you. (There would be suits against every open source developer out there whose code crashed and caused a lost day's work - but most of these developers don't have substantial assets to go after (compared to a corporation).)

      In short, developing drugs isn't something you do in your garage...

      Then we get to testing. At first you have a compound that kills Staph in a tube while presumably not killing human cells in a tube. But then again, VX probably doesn't kill human cells in a tube either (it kills nerves, and cultured cells don't have those). Now you need to shoot this stuff into a person and see what happens. Anyone want to sign up for beta-testing the latest open-source injection?

      I'm all for charity-based research to benefit the general public, but a big part of the reason that drugs are expensive is because they aren't cheap to discover.

      Free software works because the main cost in software development is the programmer's time. In free software this is typically donated. If profit is sought it is in services.

      For drugs, there are other substantial costs involved (though the developer's time is still a big one). Just donating time doesn't get you much. The services side of things is already cornered by doctors, who have much different qualifications than the guys in the lab developing the product.

  4. Be good, MRSA by laughing_badger · · Score: 2, Informative
    Let's just hope that MRSA doesn't infringe on the patent by becoming resistant to this one too :-)

    There is in fact a perfectly good MRSA killer out there already - bleach. Not much use once you are infected, but an ounce of prevention, etc. Here in the UK we need the government to get hospitals to focus more on basic hygiene, rather then forcing them to hire more managers to figure out ways of fiddling the figures to meet the latest (meaningless) government target.

    At least the government here have set themselves a goal of a 6% reduction in the number of targets set per year...

    --
    Help children born unable to swallow - www.tofs.org.uk
  5. Re:It might even be a good thing to keep it secret by ketamine-bp · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The problem is the drug should be _regulated_ not _patented_. i.e. the patient taking the drug should obtain it in a reasonable price, but he should be put in isolation in a biosafety-level-whatever center for diagnosis & treatment.

  6. Nail On The Head Dept. by ackthpt · · Score: 2, Interesting
    AquaPharm Bio-Discovery Limited, the story notes 'is keeping the identity of its MRSA-killing bacteria a closely guarded secret, and taken out patents on how they can be cultivated and used.' Oh well."

    With all the complaining about how the USPTO awards this or that patent for the obvious things, it's this patenting of medicinces which I find the most anti-social. It's like, "I'm going to discover something which may save lives, but I want the ability to restrict, for profit, how it gets used." Makes me feel my healthcare premiums aren't so much an insurance policy as a licensing fee. While I feel people do need compensation for their efforts, I feel any kind of patent awarded on medicines or medical treatments should have a much limited scope. I.e. any pharmacutical should be allowed to produce the medication with a minimal fee. Otherwise we become embroiled in these debates, like africans can't afford this or that because they cannot afford it, so they die, and it's a fait acompli massacre or genocide.

    And then there's the separate issue of this antibiotic: how long before staph is resistant to it, too.

    The best thing I ever did to fight respiratory infections was to stop eating antibiotic laden meat.

    --

    A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
  7. reality check by barryfandango · · Score: 2, Insightful

    We live in a capitalist system. Companies that don't operate in a profit-making model die faster than staph-infected peasants. Perhaps this sucks but it's our system. If a company comes up with a miracle cure at the expense of millions of dollars, should its next move be to give it all away and go out of business? The solution is for the government to subsidize the cost of the cure so sick people can afford it. In a free market system, big business has no mandate to look out for anybody's well being. That's where the government is supposed to come in.

    --
    In all matters of opinion, our adversaries are insane. -Oscar Wilde
  8. This just in.. by grub · · Score: 3, Funny


    For many years, alcohol has been recognized as an excellent disinfectant. It kills germs and viruses without exception. I strongly recommend taking in large quantities of Guinness Stout or if you live in Manitoba, Canada; Fort Garry Dark Ale.

    You're be helping the economy and keeping yourself safe from bioterror attack.

    This has been another public service message from GrubCo.

    --
    Trolling is a art,
  9. Re:This is not like software by ketamine-bp · · Score: 2, Insightful

    As a student learning in medical science and biochemistry, I believe that I can make a living researching in a university, and I can, also earn money from what my efforts deserve, YET, If it's about getting another 1 * 10^x (x being smaller than infinity), and one life is going away, I am NOT going to make it, unless the 10^x going away means I will die.

    (REALITY check - will you sacrifice your life for other's? I don't.)

  10. Closely guarded secret: in this case a good thing! by TheMidget · · Score: 4, Insightful
    To those flaming against these "evil patentmongers", in this instance it may actually be a good thing:

    Just think about why we had the problem with antibiotic-resistant staph in the first place: overuse of antibiotics. While in the old days antibiotics where reserved for serious diseases, nowadays, they are prescribed for the smallest flu and the faintest cough.

    Keeping this new wonder medicine patented will ensure that it will stay expensive enough that it will only be used when really needed. Or else we might get some Antibiotic resistant staph antibiotic antibiotic resistant staph...

  11. Re:High Price = It Will Work Better by ketamine-bp · · Score: 2, Insightful

    as pointed out previously before, it should be regulated, not high-priced. If you distribute it as 100 dollars per pill/injection/etc, and I have 100,000 dollars and i MISUSE it, like donating it to some unnamed conuntries like china, without any instruction (They suffer from resistant-strain since they misuse antibiotics pretty badly), then the whole world is possibly doomed!

  12. Re:Drug patents worse than software patents by NineNine · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If I eliminate drug patents, I will also eliminate all the new drugs I was trying to make afforadable, the argument will go. Well, maybe, but it's not so obvious to me

    Nice way to shrug off the core of the problem. Your rant is pretty much all fluff if you don't even address the issue. Yes, we all know that people not getting drugs to cure disease is bad. That's obvious. Any suggestions?

  13. Wait until the FDA approval. by NilesDonegan · · Score: 5, Insightful

    As a Staph researcher, I should say that it's wonderful that there's a new promising antibiotic out there, BUT we have no information on a) how effective it is on different strains of Staph b) if it's specific to Staph or to a wide variety of bacteria or MOST importantly c) if it's toxic to humans. The last thing you want is to get sicker while taking it.

    So treat this more as a press release, less as a scientific discovery until the peer reviewed articles and FDA approval phases start.

    Niles

  14. Nice editorializing by liquidsin · · Score: 4, Informative

    I have a question for the fellow who submitted this story: do you have any info that we don't? You've gone and claimed that this cure won't be readily / cheaply available, but I didn't find that information anywhere in the article. And now everyone else has gone off talking about how horrible pharmaceutical companies are. Like it or not, they do have the right to make money. If you want to spend your life trying to find cures for diseases and give them away, all the best to you, but these companies are in no way obligated to do the same. And NOWHERE in the linked article does it say that they plan to charge exorbitant fees for their findings. It simply says that they're patenting it. Good for them. Once it's protected by a patent they can go ahead and finish their research and develop some good drugs. Then, and only then, *if* they artificially limit availability or charge ridiculous ammounts of money for it, can you judge them. But we can always hope that they'll make a fair profit on it that they can use to do more research and that'll be it.

    --
    do not read this line twice.
  15. An new antibiotic? How about a new approach by xA40D · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I read a while back that the antibiotic approach to dealing with bacteria will always result in resistant strains of that bacteria. You can mitigate the problem by ensuring people take the full course of antibiotics, but eventually resistant strains will emerge.

    The article went on to note that a diferent approach seemed to be 100% effective in killing bacteria.

    Bacteriophages.

    Very simply if you take sample from the places that a particular strain of a bacteria is known to be present - an then alalyse these samples - you will eventually find a virus that simply eats the bacteria. Cultivate large amounts of the virus, and you can use it to kill the bacteria.

    The article highlighted the Russians who, during the cold war, became quite good with Bateriophages. But that problems with patents and financing prevented the commercial exploitation
    of their knowlegebase.

    From what I could understand bacteriophage development is so simple, it would be impossible to make any money out of it.

    Can't make any money out of it?!!?

    Makes you think.

    --
    Do you mind, your karma has just run over my dogma.
  16. wake up! overuse of antibiotics is our downfall by passion · · Score: 5, Insightful

    In this case, I feel like they filed for a patent to save humanity from itself. We as a species are overusing antibiotics. They don't just go away when they exit our bodies, or when the pills, cleaners, feed and fertilizer adjuncts expire. They wash out into the ecosystem where they definitely kill a lot of bacteria... but this is the dark point.

    They get weakened and find a culture that has mutated, or is ready to mutate - and it survives. Not only does it live on, but it thrives because it's competition has been wiped out.

    Now when that super-bug comes back to knock on your door, it laughs at your antibiotic treatments.

    I would prefer to have a certain class of treatment guarded behind intellectual property laws. I would prefer to see doses of that treatment be rather expensive, so that Joe Sixpack isn't sprinkling it on his lawn, and flooding his watershed with the substance - almost dredging out recruits for the next generation of biowars.

    Instead, it should be reserved for last-case scenarios, and applied in surgical strike fashion.

    --
    - passion
  17. Re:Patents are bad for society by Rich0 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "It's essentially beachcombing," said Dr David.

    "We go for whatever we think is likely to be of interest. There are certain sites to look for -- basically it's down to experience."


    If it is wrong to patent materials obtained in this manner there is an easy solution. Why don't you go beachcombing for the cure to the next big disease and release the rights to the world at large.

    Oh wait, you don't have millions of dollars to blow scouring the world for pools of slime that probably don't contain anything, but which might contain the cure for AIDS? Neither do these guys - hence the patent...

    If the person who discovered penicillin patented it, where would medicine be today?

    Just where we are now - patents only last about 10 years after the product is developed enough to relase...

  18. overuse, resistance by jimkski · · Score: 5, Insightful
    An important factor in the emergence of anti-biotic resistant bacterial infections is the rampant overuse of our mainstay anti-biotics by those in the medical community. Several years ago there the media started reporting on this issue when people began to note the prevalance of bacterial infections that didn't respond to conventional treatments. Doctors were found writing anti-biotic prescriptions even when such treatments were contraindicated. One doctor said that patients insisted that they receive anti-biotics and it seems easier to give them rather than put up with the fuss or risk a situation that might lead to a lawsuit.

    I don't condone price gouging by the pharmaceutical industry, but if this product is expensive and it prompts doctors to use it as a last resort, then it certainly will forstall the day when natural selection delivers us bacteria that are resistant to it.

    --
    yea i stole your sig- whats the big deal, it sucked anyway.
  19. watch the hyphenation! by Bazman · · Score: 2, Informative

    Its 'Antibiotic-resistant' - a compound adjective, so it is hyphenated. I had to read the header twice to figure out what it meant.

    Its the same difference as 'Man eating shark' (in a restaurant) and 'Man-eating shark' (in trouble).

    Baz

  20. Life Saving Patent by RhettLivingston · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The last thing we want is for this to become cheap and widely available. It will have to be expensive because we don't want anyone to get it until there it is proven that a particular case of MRSA is resistant to all existing antibiotics. And then, we only want it given on those particular cases. Thus, the costs of having found it, which could have been in the billions since its the cost of every project looking for naturally occurring drugs divided by the number of successes, and the cost of figuring out how to cultivate it, purify it, and of testing it all have to be defrayed against (hopefully) no more than a few thousands of cases.

    Its the fact that the antibiotics are too widely and easily available today that has caused this crisis. Now that a possible way out has been discovered, you propose to destroy it by making it cheap and widely available. Will we ever learn our lessons?

  21. Re:which is why by Nurseman · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The Government DOES put BILLIONS of dollars into this kind of research. The amount of Government money in research in astounding. Many research projects split funding between the Government and the drug companies.

    --
    Save a Life. Donate Blood. Please.
  22. Just bathe in a rock pool after a major surgery... by Reverse+Entropy · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The question is what kind of rock pool... People have been bathing in heated spring water pools for thousands of years with our race to become technologically superiors we have forgotten our past. Now if we can change the way that we use H/A/V/C in our work places maybe we can prevent offices & cube spaces from becoming flu factories... Why they don't install basic UV lamps inside of air ducts is beyond me, same goes for commuter and cargo transports airplanes...

  23. Not *entirely* their fault by overunderunderdone · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Remember claritin before the FDA deemed it fine to go over the counter? It was stupifying the price drop.

    I have to say I'm mostly (but not entirely) on the Pharmecuticals side on this issue. You are forgetting a few things
    1) the manufacturing of these drugs *once you know how* is generally pretty cheap & easy to do.
    2) Discovering these drugs in the first place is the product of some very serious, long-term, hard and *expensive* science.
    3) Often finding a way to turn a discovery like this into a drug that is fit for human consumption is perhaps even more difficult and *expensive* - Penicillin was discovered in 1929 but it wasn't until 1945 that someone figured out how to use it as a drug. It usually takes several years of *very expensive* research before they figure out how to use a discovery like this as a drug.
    4) Once they have a drug it takes several years of difficult and *very expensive* trials to prove it's effectiveness & safety to the FDA
    5) Not all of their expensive initial research, & expensive development of drugs end up being anything.
    6) The whole time they've been doing this their patent has been active and ticking down, they have a few years left in their patent to make back their enormous investment. (though they *may/may not* be able to get a patent extension that compensates them for the time it takes to get FDA approval. So, they may get at best 17 years to get a return on their investment or if they fail to get an extension they may have only a couple of years.
    7) They are making drugs there is a *huge* risk even after years of *expensive* research and getting FDA approval that a drug may do nasty things to the user over the long term or to a tiny fraction of the population - the result could be lawsuits that costs BILLIONS. It is important to note that this harm doesn't have to be proven scientifically it has to be "proven" in a court of law - One scientist with a pet theory as an expert witness and a handful (out of millions) that have some unexplained syndrome and all the profits from all the drugs produced by hundreds of scientists over dozens of years may end up in the pockets of a few dozen lawyers that "worked" for at most four or five years to "earn" it.

    The response to all this is that Pharmecutical companies are *very* profitable - true but they are engaged in a fairly risky investment as a matter of economics high risk has to be balanced with high rewards, otherwise the investment goes elsewhere. If they operated without any profit at all the drugs would be roughly 8-25% less (looking at last years profits vs. revenues) but that obviously woudn't take into account any risks or explain why anyone would bother to undertake the years of research outside of pure altruism - a fine sentiment but not that great as a motivator.

    The other response is "if it's a life saving drug it's morally wrong to profit from it". My response to those folks is to ask them if they are willing to make such huge investments themselves without profiting from them. Would YOU be willing to go to school, get an advanced chemistry degree, spend decades of research into the slime floating around rock pools and NOT GET PAID for it.

  24. Re:Closely guarded secret: in this case a good thi by danro · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You do have a point.
    A good one.

    But when push come to shove this will probably mean that the rich get the cure and the poor (as usual) gets shafted.
    There's huge potential for abuse in the patent system.
    I hope that won't be the case here.

    But misuse of antibiotics also ranks quite high on the 'threats to mankind' list.
    This patent properly handled could be a good thing.

    --

    "First lesson," Jon said. "Stick them with the pointy end."
  25. You don't understand patents by Kombat · · Score: 2, Informative
    I'm seeing a lot of posts here about how evil the world is for potentially allowing this company to patent this thing and make it available only to the rich. People making these comments need to read a little bit about patent law.

    Disclaimer: The following applies to Canadian/US patent law. IANAUKL.

    Patents cannot be granted for things occurring naturally in nature. There have been cases where researchers discovered a cure for a disease in nature, and spent millions of dollars trying to reproduce the substance synthetically. This is because they couldn't patent the original organic material, but they *could* patent a synthetic copy.

    Secondly, part of patent law states that in being granted a patent, you must make the product available to the public at reasonable cost. The company that comes up with a cure for AIDS will not be granted a patent for the cure unless it is produced in a lab, and they will not be allowed to charge $200 a pill for it.

    Patents are not as unbalanced as some people seem to think. They're actually a good thing. They drive research and provide incentive to invest in new medicines, while keeping the balance of ensuring such medicines will be accessible to all, not just the rich. Particularly here in Canada, where we have universal health care.

    --
    Like woodworking? Build your own picture frames.
  26. The reality in pharmaceuticals by beef3k · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I work in a small company offering services to the pharmaceutical (aka "life science companies").

    First off, it comes as absolutely NO suprise that they are keeping this close to heart. These people keep their birthdates and surnames close to heart. The only place you can possibly find a higher level of paranoia is probably at the annual DefCon.

    Second, the pharmaceutical industry NEEDS TO TAKE OUT PATENTS TO SURVIVE.

    Developing one new drug costs hundreds of millions of dollars. If the drug turns out to be a complete failure near the end of the project (i.e. clinical testing on animals/humans), then they've wasted those hundreds of millions of dollars. That means they have to make a decent profit on their successes, otherwise one or two failures would send them straight out of business.

    If they didn't patent and protect their discoveries that would mean some other company could just start producing the drug themselves, and as they didn't spend all that money on developing it, competitive pricing is not exactly a problem and again the inventor is driven out of business.

    Either have your government use some of your tax money to fund this sort of research, or just accept the facts:

    1. We need medicine.
    2. Medicine is insanely expensive to develop.
    3. That means it will eventually cost you.

    All the people that are nagging on about how "all medicine should be freely available to everyone around the world", please take a moment and understand that if it was free then there wouldn't be any medicine in the first place. Yes the pharmaceutical industry does make a good profit, but it's needed to finance the failures.

  27. We don't cure ANYTHING by Galvatron · · Score: 2, Insightful
    At present, we have 3 types of medicine: we have treatments, we have vaccines, and we have antibiotics. Discovering antibiotics cured bacteria-related diseases all in one fell swoop (okay, some refinement had to be done, but it was a giant breakthrough, not some "two diseases a week for 20 years" nonsense). Treatments don't cure anything, they merely repress symptoms. Sometimes a treatment is so effective that it is tantamount to a cure, but they're still not the same. Vaccines don't cure anything either, they just help to prevent you from contracting something. Furthermore, vaccines for deadly diseases ususually have a mortality rate associated with them. It's often small, a mere fraction of a percentage point, but there's a price nevertheless.

    Even if one accepts the argument that the pace of medical progress has slowed, that's not necessarily an argument against capitalism. Maybe the initial discoveries were easier? We've been working on cancer for most of this century, but most of the progress has been made recently, not back in the early days (when you believe things were done right). In fact, as the price of research becomes higher, it becomes all the more important that the medical companies have a way to make back their investment.

    R&D is not free. Even if the government paid for it, people would still have to bear the cost. Instead of people who actually require the medicine having to pay, the entire taxpaying population would pay. It's up to you to decide which is more fair. Of course, another big downside of government sponsored R&D is that it would be politicized. Imagine all the fun if our elected officials had/got to decide which diseases were the important ones. We'd probably spend all our money on Alzheimer's, as the baby boomers get older.

    In short, Chris Rock is full of shit.

    --
    "The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than that of whether a submarine can swim" -EWD
  28. Re:An new antibiotic? How about a new approach by nycsubway · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Woah there.. Hold on, professor.

    Bacteriophages are viruses that attack bacteria. They infect the bacterial cell and use it to multiply. There are many different kinds of bacteriophages and they infect bacteria in different ways. A virus is a peice of RNA inside a coating. It is not alive, and it does not eat bacteria. Like any virus, it uses the host cell to reproduce more virus.

    And it's also not 100% effective against bacteria. Like an antibiotic, some bacterial cells will mutate and become resistant to the virus. Considering how many billion times the cells divide, one mutation in a million can result in possible resistance traits.

    Bacteriophage development is not that simple either. Its possible to isolate a bacteriophage, but since it does not reproduce without the aide of a host cell (which it will destroy), its kind of difficult to get it to multiply and hence mutate into a form thats more virulent.

    Can't make any money out of it?!!?

    Makes you think.

    It makes me wonder why people would imply such simple solutions to a complex problem without understanding it first.

  29. Re:An new antibiotic? How about a new approach by Galvatron · · Score: 2, Insightful
    From what I could understand bacteriophage development is so simple, it would be impossible to make any money out of it.

    Huh? If it's so "simple," then that implies cheap. If it's cheap, there's little R&D to recoup. If it's patentable (as you implied with your line about the Russians. I'm not sure why the USSR cared about American patents anyway, but I'll let that slide), one can make a profit, quickly recouping R&D costs.

    Assuming the article you read wasn't just totally full of shit, there could be another reason why it's not profitable. There simply aren't that many antibiotic immune bacteria. Any new drug would almost certainly be orders of magnitude more expensive during the patent period than generic antibiotics, and there's very little that can't be cured with the right antibiotic at the right dosage. If antibiotic immune bacteria become more common, then people will pay a premium for bacteriophage based medicine, because there will be no alternative. Then it will become profitable.

    --
    "The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than that of whether a submarine can swim" -EWD
  30. Bacteriophage *won't* work by Lady+Lance · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Even before we really started to gain mastery over antibiotics, bacteriophages were studied quite extensively as a means for eradicating disease within in a patient. The problem? They simply don't work. Study after study has shown that sufficient numbers can't be delivered to the patient, and even when they are they don't have the anticipated the effect (ie bacteria don't die). You have to remember that the human body is hella complicated, and what will work on simple media won't necessarily work in vitro. I don't remember all the theories as to why it doesn't work, but I'm pretty sure the immune system is one of them--bacteriophages are non-self. The body can't differentiate between a "good" non-self and a "bad" non-self and will quickly destroy the viruses--if they even survive digestion. Yes, there is a camp that believe that treatment by bacteriophage works, but the scientific community as a whole has nixed the whole idea as there has yet to be conclusive proof that it does.

  31. "Expensive" Research? Yes, but... by The_Laughing_God · · Score: 4, Informative
    As a physician (and former researcher), I'm always surprised that, despite hundreds of media reports outlining the pharmaceutical company expenditures in some detail, the public doesn't seem to realize that the large pharmaceutical conglomerates spend several times as much on promotion and marketing as on R+D, clinical testing, etc.

    Of course, it's not the public's fault if the facts are muddied. All too often, the media's brain-dead interpretation of "fairness" and "balance" consists of providing roughly equal time (or arguments of apparently roughly equal weight) even when that same outlet may already have thoroughly discredited a given argument. They are selling the appearance of fairness, after all. Actual fairness is as irrelevant as the *decrease* in aerodynamic performance caused by the rocket/jet fins and detailing of many cars in the 50/60's. Appearances are everything.

    But to return to the pharmaceuticals companies: R+D is "a major expense" only after a tangled borderline perjurious accounting that was previously reserved for Ponzi schemes and the recording industry. Many of these ultra-expensive wonder drugs are sold for half as much in Canada, and a quarter the price or less in some parts of Europe, Asia or Africa. This wouldn't be the case if they were desperately trying to recoup genuine costs at their inflated US prices (because they'd be losing money on every non-US sale). They're just charging what the market will bear.

    Further, as regards "innovation". Every week, I am bombarded by literally hundreds of ads (in medical journals, direct mailings an drug reps who barge in with no appointment, but are my sole source for "free samples" for my poor patients) for new wonderdrugs thhat are nothing more than 'me-too' knock-off. They move a hydroxyl group or a carbon atom on an existing drug, and run hundreds of tests (talk about expensive!) looking for some minute benefit over a current wonder drug (which they may also own). Almost invariably, the me-too is *less* effective or safe OVERALL than the existing drug (the lack of overall improvement is so consistent thatI sometimes think they're marketing the also-rans of the initial development effort - it would certainly be cheaper) Often the original 'wonder drug (progenitor of a new class) is itself only occassionally better than far cheaper and safer generic alternatives

    Let me cite an example: in most cases, diuretics (drugs that cause you to urinate excess water) are both more effective and safer, at pennies a day, than Calcium Channel blockers and ACE (angiotensin convertine enzyme) inhibitors that cost several dollars a day -- for life! The study that proved this was one of the best and most unarguable in years, yet drug reps and execs will openly tell you that they aren't worried. "No one is pushing (marketing) cheap, safe diuretics which doctors have used for other purposes for centuries". Why do you think they market directly to patients? A few years ago, TVs and billboards were flooded with ads that didn't even specify what the drug was for, but urged "Ask your doctor". Perfectly healthy people came in, asking, afraid they were missing out on the Latest Greatest Thing.

    Another example is the new anti-AIDS drug Fuzeon, widely hailed as an example of a drug whose high price ($20,570/yr = E19,000) is justified because it takes over 100 steps to prepare. Even if you accept their own figures justifying the cost, R+D was SFr 840 million ($620 million) and annual sales are projected to be $740 million per year, once hey hit full production (by which time, production costs are expected to be 10-15% of current levels)

    Here are a couple of articles, for those who are still reading:
    In U.S., marketing blurs into medicine
    A more general analysis of the industry by the Markle Foundation (health care advocates)

    Sorry for the rant.

  32. AWESOME! by xeeno · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Now we can overprescribe yet another antibiotic and thus churn out zillions of antibiotic-resistant bacteria.
    God, I *really* hope this is used only as a last ditch effort and is used correctly. It makes me ill when a doctor offers me an antibiotic for a viral infection.

  33. Which would you rather have? by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 2, Informative

    It's just stupid to think that it is fair to allow an artificial monopoly on important discoveries because it is an incentive to develop more.

    Which would you rather have?

    1) A cure for AIDS (or drug-resistant staph, or whatever fatal nastiness) that costs $500,000, and a lot of aids patients cured.

    2) No cure for AIDS (or drug-resistant staph, or whatever fatal nastiness), and all of those patients dead.

    You only get one. Because it costs many millions of dollars to hunt up a cure for anything. And once it's found, another $13 million (and rising) to get it approved by a bureaucracy that gets dinged big-time for approving a drug that harms a few people through side-effects but not for withholding one that would save 100,000 lives a year (example: Beta blockers for preventing second-and-fatal heart attacks.)

    The bright side is that they're going to try to get as much money as possible from their drug once they have it. So they won't price it so high that only five patients can afford it. Fast nickles are better than slow dimes - so (as soon as a few rich ones have been soaked to get it early), they'll drop the price and sell it to a few thousand well-to-do, then again to get the insurance companies to declare it no longer experimental, then again to sell as much as they can to the people without insurance. And they'll sell 'em cheaper in poor countries (as soon as they've sold some to any rich rulers that need curing.) Meanwhile they'll donate some to charity clinics for a tax deduction based on the high price, and hand out physician samples (to physicians who will save 'em for the people who can't afford 'em because there aren't enough samples to cure everybody). (And there's a rare-disease special approval for drugs that don't have enough market to pay for the bureacuracy's regular approval process.)

    And that makes sense even to compensated psychopaths in the executive suite. But I'll tell you a dirty little secret: Not ALL the decision-makers in drug companies are money-grubbing psychopaths. Some of 'em are there because they really want to help people. But (unlike some bleeding-hearts) they're smart enough to know that, after researching ten thousand compounds to get a cure (or "treatment" - make it better without ending it, if that's all you can manage) for ONE disease, you need to make enough money to pay off the cost, and the investors, to have enough left over (or enough profit to attract more from investors) to find cures or treatments for the next two, or ten, or fifty diseases.

    Most of these patents are for these which nature has spent millions of years perfecting. The first person who comes along and notices it does not deserve an artificial monopoly on a natural drug.

    This system was perfected back when the way to find a new antibiotic was to hunt up plants and molds, extract their funny compounds, identify any that did something useful, figure out how to make it in bulk, and productize it. (Think "penicillin" and "{whatever}mycin".) That's exactly the financial case above, and exacty what we're talking about with this new compound. They DAMNED WELL deserve a return for the millions they spent finding this - and the other millions they spent going down blind alleys while hunting for it.

    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
  34. The Government will/must step up... by awfar · · Score: 2, Insightful

    As a long-time employee in a pharma giant, near but not in the top level science, I know first hand the culture and their attitude; it is elitist and (was) very top-heavy with it's highly paid Wharton" business school managers who accounted for nothing but paperclips.

    "we do nothing anything inexpensively; we are not a University" I was warned; the more expensive and shiny the better. I hated the culture and left it, the Republican-ish stewardship and snobbery; even the locals hate you if they know you are part of "that company".

    As in other *required* areas of our life/lifestyle, the government(s) will be forced to take over or regulate this burden; society cannot afford to fund hyper-educated, top heavy, and expensive endeavors ala space shuttle, orphaned drugs, our highway system, etc.

  35. This is... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    ...bullshit. I understand that people deserve to be compensated for their time and efforts even in the field of medical R&D, but this is ridiculous. Something with such widesweeping implications and of such potential benefit to humanity should not be patented. Fortunately, I contend that the concept of patenting something that occurs naturally is stupid on it's face. It doesn't matter how they patent it. Once the information has been disclosed it will find it's way to freedom.

  36. Philosphy Street... by TygerFish · · Score: 2, Insightful

    There were a lot of interesting threads above arguing the right or lack of a right of a drug company to hold patent secrets and the attendent ability to set prices.

    This rapidly becomes a matter of taste in morals and what a society should allow or does allow in terms of ethics.

    The way pharmaceutical companies operate in many cases, is analogous to blackmail: a man walks up to a woman whose husband has a violent temper. He tells her that he has put them in a place where her husband is bound to find them very soon unless he gives her all the money she can beg, borrow or steal.

    Like someone with a fatal illness, the woman has very little time to respond and has to put many of her resources into providing for her tormentor's profit.

    One man is a filthy criminal. The other is a corporate hero.

    It is interesting to note that when there is a sufficient pressure of national interest, governments lesson or remove the power of companies and individuals to derive profit from their inventions (see the conflict between the Wright Brothers and the Inventor Curtis over the aileron at the start of the first World War).

    The key question which is only resolved by the political will of the people in control is: 'at what point do the interests of the many (alleviation of suffering, survival ), outweigh the interests of corporations and entrepreneurs?'

    It's an ugly question. Not everyone has the stomach to intellectualize people dying of infection by a resistant strain so they can charge $100 for antibiotics instead of $10 but this is what drug companies are all about.

    --
    To mail me, remove the 'mailno' from my email addy.
    "Yeah. It smells, too..."
  37. Drug Resistance by silentbozo · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Consider how important it is to keep antibiotics in reserve. Previously, Cipro was the last line of defense - and it was used up during the anthrax scare. There's plenty of Cipro to go around, but the usefulness has dropped significantly since the appearance of bacteria resistant to Cipro have appeared.

    For those of you who don't remember biology, bacteria resistance is particularly nasty because unrelated kinds of bacteria can actually swap genes for traits (including resistance.) Thus, you could take an incomplete course of antibiotics, and end up with drug-resistant e-coli in your gut (which are harmless.) Then, you catch a nastier infection (say, a bacterial pneumonia), the nasty bacterium manages to swap genes with your drug-resistant e-coli, and WHAM, you've got a deadly infection that is resistant to all available drugs. Hospitals are particularly deadly because they tend to treat the sickest patients with the most advanced drugs... and as a result many drug resistant strains LIVE IN HOSPITALS! (Yes, this is a true fact - disinfection is a serious bitch with certain strains of bacteria...)

    The longer they keep this new stuff away from the general public, the better it will be in the event we REALLY need it.

    1. Re:Drug Resistance by juushin · · Score: 2, Interesting
      To my knowledge Ciprofloxacin has never been considered the antibiotic of last resort. I believe you are mistaking this for Vancomycin.

  38. private drug development is not efficient by g4dget · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Given the realities of the market and who ends up paying for drugs, it turns out to be cheaper for drugs to be developed through government research and then manufactured generically. If private companies develop the drugs, the public doesn't need to pay for drug development directly, but the public ends up paying many times over in terms of higher drug prices.

    Another problem with private development of drugs is that market forces cause the development of the wrong kinds of drugs: you get dozens of redundant designer anti-allergy drugs, but less common diseases don't get addressed.

    Research is something the government has demonstrated they are good and efficient at. And, in fact, a lot of private drug research is still partially supported by the government anyway.