Slashdot Mirror
Toshiba To Show Laptop Fuel Cells at CeBit
war3rd writes "According to The Register, Toshiba has finally been able to build a fuel cell for laptops that they will unveil at CeBit next week. The fuel cells are expected to last approximately 5 hours and are compatible with existing lithium-ion batteries. Form factor remains the only issue. The trick is that they use the water by-product from the cell to dilute the methanol source as it enters the reformer, and are therefore able to store higher concentrations of methanol in the cell. My only concern is how quickly can they get this to market?"
hehehehe that makes me smile
Ignore the "p2p is theft" trolls, they're just uninformed
If you want a fuel cell to be practically usable, you should make it run on 40% Ethanol, 60% water. That way, there is a commonly available fuel (Vodka) which can be easily purchased most everywhere in the US (outside Mormonstan at least).
If you can make the fuel cell deal with more impurities, you could also use Whiskey or Tequila or similar distilled spirits.
Test your net with Netalyzr
It'd be nice if the component makers would establish an "open laptop" form factor. We've alreadt got mini-ITX. We just need a chassis/monitor and DC power specification.
Life is the leading cause of death in America.
Doc
We should take care not to make the intellect our god; it has, of course, powerful muscles, but no personality.
My question is, how long will the battery hold up? I don't mean a single charge, I mean how long will the battery be usuable. Also, it states at the end of the article it will take 2-3 years to get to market. It's amazing that the poster of this story can't even read the article
----
Squirrel
I'm not sure airlines or the TSA will be thrilled about people using fuel-cell-powered devices on those long-haul flights.
I RTFA, but still have a basic question - how does one recharge the battery? Will you purchase methanol packs, or just pitch the battery and get a new one? Either way, that cuts into the "environmentally friendly" bit...
Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
Is the best site for information about Fuel Cells
Make it run on atmospheric methane, and install a pay-per-use WAP in every Taco Bell.
It'll like be like printing your own money!
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
Ah yes, this will definitely get your through airport security?
Rent-a-Cop: "Sir, you wouldn't happen to have a explosive gas in that laptop would you?"
Slashdot-Geek: "Uh, no, duh -- it's a fuel cell laptop."
Rent-a-Cop: "Riiiiiigggghhhhhtttttttttttt. Please come with me."
Why do the chemists and chemical engineers keep coming up with such volitile compounds -- why can't we start fueling devices out of garbage like that dude on back to the future?
I could be wrong --
"This isn't a study in computer science, its a study in human behavior"
"Runs for 5 hours" under what circumstances and configuration? I'll be downright impressed if they can get five hours out of a desktop PIV running full-blast, and running those drives full-time and the 802.11 won't help. I'd be impressed if the 'smart' battery/fuel cell realy was. My "10% low battery alarm" means anywhere from 5 to 30 minutes on a 2:30 or so charge life.
It's just like a fascist dictatorship, without the punctual rail service!
Making it run on 40% ethanol, 60% water, denatured with methanol (nondrinkable) also is good, for the "lower cost (no booze taxes), lower availablity" fuel.
Test your net with Netalyzr
Let's see. Now I can have a batter with a moderately longer runtime, but refilling it is much more difficult than simply plugging it in. Who's going to go for that? OK, it's cool. OK, it's environmentally friendly, but is that enough to overcome the convenience factor?
Even with a good catalyst like a fuel cell has, the reaction that takes place has a temperature of several hundred degrees Centigrade.
Sounds good for a little hot action on your laptop!
>> smoking thier laptop for it's menthol? lord knows i would
Go for it! I'll start preparing your Darwin Award nomination now.
(Methanol will kill you dead, AFAIK)
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
Fuel cells would be great replacements for non-rechargable batterys, but not rechargables. Think about it. You hate to recharge your laptop, but you'll hate it more if you have to pay for fuel. You pay for electricity, but you don't usually think about it. You also don't pay for it if you charge your laptop at work. Yes, one way or the other we all pay for it - I'm talking about noticing it.
Here is the methanol safety card. I don't see these on airplanes anytime soon. Anyway, remember those old photocopies from the 70's/early 80's that made pages with blue text? They always smelled a bit and came out a little wet. Yup, methonal was the fluid used in them....
-Sean
You "recharge" by popping in a new cartridge of methanol, which should be cheap ($3-5 initial starting price, probably down to $0.30 eventually. You don't actually have to plug the laptop in for a few hours to recharge it either, so on that long airline flight you can run the laptop indefinitely with enough little cartridges. I saw a pic of a prototype cartridge once somewhere, it looked about the size of a AA battery.
Isn't Hydrogen the desired fuel for a fuel cell? I may be wrong, but I thought that anything besides pure hydrogen would have additional exhausts besides just warm or hot water.
If that is the case, I am not sure why I would opt for this, being that it 'only' gives me five/six hours run time between refills.
That's another point - buying refills for every six hours use is a little bit more cumbersome than just plugging your laptop into the wall and charging the battery, even though the battery will not last as long.
Coding under the influence.
Honest officer I was just fueling my laptop.
Slashdot, home of supporters of free software, free music, and free speech.Except for Moderators that disagree with you.
..actually, one can of methanol and one of beer wouldn't be bad. As long as you remember which tube is which.
Life is like surrealism: if you have to have it explained to you, you can't afford it.
1) you misread this - it's methanol, not menthol.
2) methanol is a poison. Low levels of methanol will permanently blind you. At higher levels, you'd be dead. "Denatured" alcohol is ethanol ("normal" drinkable, get drunk on alcohol) with very low levels of methanol. It's used in industrial processes. There's not enough methanol to screw up most reactions that require ethanol, but enough methanol to make it poisonous to drink so people wont use it as a way of avoiding government taxation.
Yes, but where do you get fuel from? I get power from a socket.
People who think they know everything really piss off those of us that actually do.
As others have pointed out, 5 hours on a laptop is *nothing* The batteries on my iBook do that just fine. Sure it takes me a couple of hours to fully recharge, but that's what a second battery is for, should I need one. Also, I don't have to refill, nor throw away spent fuel cells. It sounds like manually refueling would be a pain in the arse [for a laptop]. Vehicles using fuel cells sound much more interesting
What would be interesting would be a fuel cell laptop that got maybe 24 hours on a "charge".
This just seems like gadgetry for its own sake
.
Blocklevel: Practical Information Architecture
http://www.maxwell.com/ultracapacitors/ According to the above page, ultracapacitors "deliver up to 10 times the power, last up to 10 times as long, operate more reliably in high- and low-temperature conditions, require far less maintenance and reduce environmental issues associated with battery disposal" compared to batteries. I recently read about a hybrid automobile that will be using ultracaps (don't remember who). It seems like these could be implemented in laptops and cell phones.
Computer manufactures should focus on lower power solutions instead of building better batteries (or combine the two). My 17" Powerbook I ordered is rated at 4.5 hrs already with a standard battery. In general the pc world seems that the solution is always to throw more power at the problem instead of trying to come up with a more elegant method of dealing with it. (This isn't a rip on PC's I use both Macs and Pcs daily, just that there's more than 1 solution to most problems)
I really don't want a contained fire on my lap. I know Lithium-ion reactions are probably just as bad, but there's just a big mental difference. Do you really want something that can run your lawnmover on an airplane? Does the airline want it on your lap, either?
"Politicians find new names for institutions which under old names have become odious to the people."
The Inforworld link (that I was submitting at the same time that this story got posted, BTW), says they will be available in 2004.
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither safety nor liberty.
Ben
Yeah, it's toxic, but so is ethanol. Methanol is mostly only toxic due to secondary effects. You can get drunk on methanol and feel fine... for a while. The problem is what happens in your body once it starts breaking it down.
:) The ethanol has a much higher affinity for the dehydrogenase so it prevents the body from breaking the methanol down into toxic things.
Methanol breaks down via alcohol dehydrogenase into formaldehyde and formate, which of course are pretty toxic. Ethanol breaks down into these things also, but the body does a much better job of breaking ethanol down more completely.
The antidote for methanol ingestion is ethanol ingestion. Really.
For this reason, if you drink something like ethanol denatured with methanol, you will probably not die, but only get very sick.
Also, some commercial drinking alcohols contain small amounts of methanol, which is likely why you get more of a hangover when you drink cheap liquor vs. the good stuff, you actually slightly poisoned yourself.
I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
Actually, that's CO2 emissions, not CO. At worst, you might feel a little light headed but in no way poisoned.
And, you can use any power outlet anywhere for free (except at home of course) whereas the fuel always costs extra - if you can find it.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
It would be more suitable for most of the executives I work with. They could top it off from the mini-bar.
The "safety card" for lithium.
It's doesn't seem to me that methanol in a sealed cell is any more dangerous than the lithium you have in your current laptop battery, or for that matter than the ethanol in the spirits sold as "Duty Free" on international flights.
There is no place like ~!
Just needs to be re-routed to the single cup USB enabled coffee maker.
So, what makes carrying a small AA battery-sized container of methanol any different than carrying a butane lighter onto an airplane? I don't see one. Not to mention all the other flammable products carried in small quantities on airplanes in cosmetics and toiletries.
As for the waste/disposal issue, the reason fuel cells are considered advantageous is that both production and disposal is cleaner, not containing toxic chemical compounds. The cartridges could easily be recycled into new cartridges...maybe even someday like inkjet printer cartridges.
As for the runtime on a single charge, that is certain to improve over time. The point is that they get new technology in the marketplace.
BTW, before anyone questions "why don't I use a go-ped like engine" - noise is the main reason, laws are another (as in legal grey area).
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
Very safe.
People aren't yelling about how scary and flammable vodka, or any other strong ethanol containing liquid is, but for some reason when they hear the word "methanol" associated with fuel cells it only takes nanoseconds before someone is screaming about safety...
If you live somewhere with cold weather you've probably used diluted methanol in your windshield washer for godssake! Did it explode then?
I sure hope that improves. Thats barely better than my current celeron 633 laptop. If better at all. Certainly not at idle.
:|
I dont relish paying a lot of money for a battery that doesnt last any longer than my current one.
Well, then again filling it is a lot quicker than charging a battery.
Ignore me i guess, i must be in a bitching mood.
It's easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them.