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Toshiba To Show Laptop Fuel Cells at CeBit
war3rd writes "According to The Register, Toshiba has finally been able to build a fuel cell for laptops that they will unveil at CeBit next week. The fuel cells are expected to last approximately 5 hours and are compatible with existing lithium-ion batteries. Form factor remains the only issue. The trick is that they use the water by-product from the cell to dilute the methanol source as it enters the reformer, and are therefore able to store higher concentrations of methanol in the cell. My only concern is how quickly can they get this to market?"
hehehehe that makes me smile
Ignore the "p2p is theft" trolls, they're just uninformed
If you want a fuel cell to be practically usable, you should make it run on 40% Ethanol, 60% water. That way, there is a commonly available fuel (Vodka) which can be easily purchased most everywhere in the US (outside Mormonstan at least).
If you can make the fuel cell deal with more impurities, you could also use Whiskey or Tequila or similar distilled spirits.
Test your net with Netalyzr
It'd be nice if the component makers would establish an "open laptop" form factor. We've alreadt got mini-ITX. We just need a chassis/monitor and DC power specification.
Life is the leading cause of death in America.
Doc
We should take care not to make the intellect our god; it has, of course, powerful muscles, but no personality.
My question is, how long will the battery hold up? I don't mean a single charge, I mean how long will the battery be usuable. Also, it states at the end of the article it will take 2-3 years to get to market. It's amazing that the poster of this story can't even read the article
----
Squirrel
Why stop at just laptops? Why not go straight to powering houses and cars?
I'm not sure airlines or the TSA will be thrilled about people using fuel-cell-powered devices on those long-haul flights.
I RTFA, but still have a basic question - how does one recharge the battery? Will you purchase methanol packs, or just pitch the battery and get a new one? Either way, that cuts into the "environmentally friendly" bit...
Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
Is the best site for information about Fuel Cells
Make it run on atmospheric methane, and install a pay-per-use WAP in every Taco Bell.
It'll like be like printing your own money!
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
I'll bet a dollar the answer is ... NO.
Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws-Plato
Ah yes, this will definitely get your through airport security?
Rent-a-Cop: "Sir, you wouldn't happen to have a explosive gas in that laptop would you?"
Slashdot-Geek: "Uh, no, duh -- it's a fuel cell laptop."
Rent-a-Cop: "Riiiiiigggghhhhhtttttttttttt. Please come with me."
Why do the chemists and chemical engineers keep coming up with such volitile compounds -- why can't we start fueling devices out of garbage like that dude on back to the future?
I could be wrong --
"This isn't a study in computer science, its a study in human behavior"
"Runs for 5 hours" under what circumstances and configuration? I'll be downright impressed if they can get five hours out of a desktop PIV running full-blast, and running those drives full-time and the 802.11 won't help. I'd be impressed if the 'smart' battery/fuel cell realy was. My "10% low battery alarm" means anywhere from 5 to 30 minutes on a 2:30 or so charge life.
It's just like a fascist dictatorship, without the punctual rail service!
Making it run on 40% ethanol, 60% water, denatured with methanol (nondrinkable) also is good, for the "lower cost (no booze taxes), lower availablity" fuel.
Test your net with Netalyzr
Let's see. Now I can have a batter with a moderately longer runtime, but refilling it is much more difficult than simply plugging it in. Who's going to go for that? OK, it's cool. OK, it's environmentally friendly, but is that enough to overcome the convenience factor?
Even with a good catalyst like a fuel cell has, the reaction that takes place has a temperature of several hundred degrees Centigrade.
Sounds good for a little hot action on your laptop!
How do these things work? Do you really have to fill 'em up or are they sealed, disposable units?
>> smoking thier laptop for it's menthol? lord knows i would
Go for it! I'll start preparing your Darwin Award nomination now.
(Methanol will kill you dead, AFAIK)
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
A technology that lasts about the same time as a battery and will label you a terrorist when you board an airplane. Can't wait until these are out either.
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My fujitsu lifebook p-2000 gets 5 hours of real battery life with the extended battery and up to 12 with two batteries. Let me know when your iBook can do that!
5 hours of juice is about what my tibook gets now. After getting the mac I have never wanted for more battery time anymore. Now I want for CounterStrike though !!
I would like my laptop fuel cell to run on jet fuel. That way I could just pick it up at the airport on the tarmak.
Fuel cells would be great replacements for non-rechargable batterys, but not rechargables. Think about it. You hate to recharge your laptop, but you'll hate it more if you have to pay for fuel. You pay for electricity, but you don't usually think about it. You also don't pay for it if you charge your laptop at work. Yes, one way or the other we all pay for it - I'm talking about noticing it.
I guess you've never heard of a cross compiler o QT then. I can write software using a Mac running OSX that will run on your PC and look like any other windows GUI.
That's what open standards and file formats are all about.
Follow me
OK, how good is this as a fuel cell? Can you hook up a fuel tank and run it as long as the tank is kept full? That would be great for emergency power applications.
I could be wrong, but you should be able to use the fuel cell to power your laptop making it 9+ hours (I don't know what system toshiba's estimates are with.)
-Derick
Here is the methanol safety card. I don't see these on airplanes anytime soon. Anyway, remember those old photocopies from the 70's/early 80's that made pages with blue text? They always smelled a bit and came out a little wet. Yup, methonal was the fluid used in them....
-Sean
You "recharge" by popping in a new cartridge of methanol, which should be cheap ($3-5 initial starting price, probably down to $0.30 eventually. You don't actually have to plug the laptop in for a few hours to recharge it either, so on that long airline flight you can run the laptop indefinitely with enough little cartridges. I saw a pic of a prototype cartridge once somewhere, it looked about the size of a AA battery.
Isn't Hydrogen the desired fuel for a fuel cell? I may be wrong, but I thought that anything besides pure hydrogen would have additional exhausts besides just warm or hot water.
If that is the case, I am not sure why I would opt for this, being that it 'only' gives me five/six hours run time between refills.
That's another point - buying refills for every six hours use is a little bit more cumbersome than just plugging your laptop into the wall and charging the battery, even though the battery will not last as long.
Some people forget that ethanol (drinkable) ~= methanol (poison).
The IPCC has purposely engineered a massive scientific fraud.
If you are flying, at least you would be able to recharge your laptop. Might even be healtier, tomato juice for you, vodka for your computer.
SCO to Hell
It'll probably be in the "Best vaporware of 2003!" poll.
-Derick
Coding under the influence.
Honest officer I was just fueling my laptop.
Slashdot, home of supporters of free software, free music, and free speech.Except for Moderators that disagree with you.
In that case, how long will the iBook run on it?
1) you misread this - it's methanol, not menthol.
2) methanol is a poison. Low levels of methanol will permanently blind you. At higher levels, you'd be dead. "Denatured" alcohol is ethanol ("normal" drinkable, get drunk on alcohol) with very low levels of methanol. It's used in industrial processes. There's not enough methanol to screw up most reactions that require ethanol, but enough methanol to make it poisonous to drink so people wont use it as a way of avoiding government taxation.
Yes, but where do you get fuel from? I get power from a socket.
People who think they know everything really piss off those of us that actually do.
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As others have pointed out, 5 hours on a laptop is *nothing* The batteries on my iBook do that just fine. Sure it takes me a couple of hours to fully recharge, but that's what a second battery is for, should I need one. Also, I don't have to refill, nor throw away spent fuel cells. It sounds like manually refueling would be a pain in the arse [for a laptop]. Vehicles using fuel cells sound much more interesting
What would be interesting would be a fuel cell laptop that got maybe 24 hours on a "charge".
This just seems like gadgetry for its own sake
.
Blocklevel: Practical Information Architecture
http://www.maxwell.com/ultracapacitors/ According to the above page, ultracapacitors "deliver up to 10 times the power, last up to 10 times as long, operate more reliably in high- and low-temperature conditions, require far less maintenance and reduce environmental issues associated with battery disposal" compared to batteries. I recently read about a hybrid automobile that will be using ultracaps (don't remember who). It seems like these could be implemented in laptops and cell phones.
Not to mention that the FAA requires the pilot be notified of all hazardous materials shipped on airplanes. (I'm in charge of hazmat auditing at a UPS hub). Having these methanol cartidges would require the passenger to have to register it or something of that nature, have it inspected, and a report given to the pilot of all of the laptops of this type on the plane. If this wasn't followed by the wonderful employees in baggage...hefty, and i mean HEFTY fines could result. For example, Emery Airlines was nailed for $500,000 for not notifying pilots of hazmats onboard. So...I don't see these on planes anytime soon either.
Give yourself a hitler?
No I didnt spell check this post...
Computer manufactures should focus on lower power solutions instead of building better batteries (or combine the two). My 17" Powerbook I ordered is rated at 4.5 hrs already with a standard battery. In general the pc world seems that the solution is always to throw more power at the problem instead of trying to come up with a more elegant method of dealing with it. (This isn't a rip on PC's I use both Macs and Pcs daily, just that there's more than 1 solution to most problems)
Your transmeta would probably get 8 hours. That's 5 hours with a "normal" laptop.
Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
Hopefully they'll be able to squeeze them down to AA size. I have some lithium AA batteries for my PDA, and the battery life is a little longer, but the big plus is that the amperage keeps up even when the batteries are low. With NiMH (or NiCD I suppose) if the battery is low and you turn on the backlight, the PDA shuts off and drops to backup battery power. Maybe with a fuel-cell battery you could actually use the PC-Card slot on the road for more than 30 minutes without draining the batteries dry.
Democracy. Whiskey. Sexy. Pick any two.
What's with the alarmist "It's got unhealthy stuff in it!" rants about fuel cells? It's not like NiCad or LiIon batteries are a good nutritional supplement and all that wildlife friendly either, folks.
Some people forget that there are drunks all over the world who don't care. Methanol poisoning is a real medical problem that crops up in inner city hospitals all the time.
Unfortunately, since the cells contain methanol, they would probably be banned from airplanes for security reasons. So much for flying with your laptop.
TLR
A man no more knows his destiny than a tea leaf knows the history of the East India Company
There will be an increase in risk for those people who use their laptop around large open flames. Hopefully these people will know to stick to regular batteries.
I really don't want a contained fire on my lap. I know Lithium-ion reactions are probably just as bad, but there's just a big mental difference. Do you really want something that can run your lawnmover on an airplane? Does the airline want it on your lap, either?
"Politicians find new names for institutions which under old names have become odious to the people."
The Inforworld link (that I was submitting at the same time that this story got posted, BTW), says they will be available in 2004.
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither safety nor liberty.
Ben
Yeah, it's toxic, but so is ethanol. Methanol is mostly only toxic due to secondary effects. You can get drunk on methanol and feel fine... for a while. The problem is what happens in your body once it starts breaking it down.
:) The ethanol has a much higher affinity for the dehydrogenase so it prevents the body from breaking the methanol down into toxic things.
Methanol breaks down via alcohol dehydrogenase into formaldehyde and formate, which of course are pretty toxic. Ethanol breaks down into these things also, but the body does a much better job of breaking ethanol down more completely.
The antidote for methanol ingestion is ethanol ingestion. Really.
For this reason, if you drink something like ethanol denatured with methanol, you will probably not die, but only get very sick.
Also, some commercial drinking alcohols contain small amounts of methanol, which is likely why you get more of a hangover when you drink cheap liquor vs. the good stuff, you actually slightly poisoned yourself.
I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
Ok, here's the ultimate use for Fuel Cell units like this. Install a espresso maker in the laptop. The fuel cell provides both water and heat. And Presto it fuels the laptop and the user.
Today is what tomorrow will be built from.
Just remember that these battery packs are for fueling your computer, not for drinking them like alcohol and then getting drunk with them...
guess that's why they say "never drink your laptop battery!" ba dum bum!
speaking of drinking laptop batteries as a substitute for alcohol, could I get another? ooh.. where do I come up with this stuff, I'm funnier than ALF
slashdot: where everyone yells sarcastic metaphors to themselves to understand the issue
And, you can use any power outlet anywhere for free (except at home of course) whereas the fuel always costs extra - if you can find it.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
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It would be more suitable for most of the executives I work with. They could top it off from the mini-bar.
The "safety card" for lithium.
It's doesn't seem to me that methanol in a sealed cell is any more dangerous than the lithium you have in your current laptop battery, or for that matter than the ethanol in the spirits sold as "Duty Free" on international flights.
There is no place like ~!
Egads! I remember turning the crank on the ditto machine to make the magical blue copies in school.
We had our ditto machine in a not so well ventilated room, and you could almost get a contact high.
I had a hard time reading your link to the hazard.com site due to my impaired vision and persistant headaches.
Smelly Purple Faxes
Just needs to be re-routed to the single cup USB enabled coffee maker.
now you will really be able to write explode virus.
Mod me down, but I have to say it...
In Soviet Russia, laptop fuels you.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
So, what makes carrying a small AA battery-sized container of methanol any different than carrying a butane lighter onto an airplane? I don't see one. Not to mention all the other flammable products carried in small quantities on airplanes in cosmetics and toiletries.
As for the waste/disposal issue, the reason fuel cells are considered advantageous is that both production and disposal is cleaner, not containing toxic chemical compounds. The cartridges could easily be recycled into new cartridges...maybe even someday like inkjet printer cartridges.
As for the runtime on a single charge, that is certain to improve over time. The point is that they get new technology in the marketplace.
"Ladies and gentlemen, you are hereby, for the length of this flight, deputized to engage in the use of lethal force in defense of this airplane, and it's passengers. If you are called to exercise this right, and suceed in preventing a hijacking and/or crash, you or your surviving dependents will be eligible for a reward, possibly up to one million dollars."
Do not confuse duty with what other people expect of you; they are utterly different.Duty is a debt you owe to yourself.
I believe the article was saying that the Intel funded fuel cell (Not the Toshiba product) would take 2-3 years to get to market.
"If it gets product out by then, Toshiba will probably be first to market. An Intel-funded start up, PolyFuel is working on direct methanol fuel cells for laptops. This delivers 150 watt hours hour battery capacity, three times greater than the best mobile PC batteries a day, but commercial product will take two-to-three years to get to market."
I don't think fires or security will be a major concern. According to the article:
The technology uses water produced by the fuel cell to dilute the methanol to the 3-6 per cent concentration required for the electricity generating reaction. The upshot: the methanol can be stored at a much higher concentration, requiring a much smaller (ten per cent) fuel tank.
The wording is a bit confusing, so I'm not sure if the fuel tanks are 10% smaller, or that the concentration of methanol in the fuel tanks is 10%.
Either way, it's pretty clear that the fuel cell reaction only takes place with very low concentrations of methanol, and my guess is the fuel is going to be a comparitvely dilute mixture of methanol and water.
BTW, before anyone questions "why don't I use a go-ped like engine" - noise is the main reason, laws are another (as in legal grey area).
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
Very safe.
People aren't yelling about how scary and flammable vodka, or any other strong ethanol containing liquid is, but for some reason when they hear the word "methanol" associated with fuel cells it only takes nanoseconds before someone is screaming about safety...
If you live somewhere with cold weather you've probably used diluted methanol in your windshield washer for godssake! Did it explode then?
Alarmist? Huh. Seemed perfectly non-alarming post to me. He just stated a fact: methanol is a poison. Nothing more, nothing less.
Besides, methanol is probably extremely wildlife friendly compared to those batteries, poison to humans it may be, but it's still organic compound, and is created all the time in small amounts by natural processes, and will break down as well.
Does anyone know the practicallities of replacing normal lead acid batteries charged by a generator (on a boat) with methanol fuel cells. The batteries are used for domestic power and charged by generator/engine/wind/solar (in that order) on a sail boat. If I could use silent efficient fuel calls instead (prolly keap one lead acid for engine starting curent and store the solar/wind that I have anyway) and save the wieght space of the genny I would be a happy hamster. Thanks for help :)
one Calm Whore
However, this particular fuel cell system is probably designed for safety and ease of refilling, and would have a battery or ultracapacitor backup, so the cartridges are probably not refillable on the fly - you have to stop the system, swap the fuel cartridge, and start it up again.
In the future, though, it's not hard to see people taking fuel-cell "generators" on camping trips.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
--Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
The problem with hydrogen is storage. Liquid, gas tight pressure canisters? Methanol is a simple and effective solution to that problem.
You can manufacture methanol from a number of sources, fossil fuels, biological sources, you can even manufacture it from the CO2 in the atmosphere if you have plenty of free energy.
Deleted
Blue Schnapps Over Drambuie?
I ride a motorcycle.
Several thousand explosions per minute 6 inches from my bollocks. Add to that a 50kW heater situated directly under 20L of petrol, which happens to be placed 1 inch from my bollocks.
Deleted
So is there a way i can make one of these fuel cells myself?
Yes, ive done a google, but only found books that 'claim' to show you.. but of course, no refunds if the info is garbage.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
100 bateries for my dell on the wall, 100 batteries for my dell take one down, surf it around, 99 batteries for my dell on the wall.. . . . . . yada
ethonal is also the treatment for antifreeze, you more or less put a person/animal into liver failure by injecting vodka right into the veins, the liver shuts down and the antifreeze just ends up getting pissed out or whatever instead of processed by the liver.
I sure hope that improves. Thats barely better than my current celeron 633 laptop. If better at all. Certainly not at idle.
:|
I dont relish paying a lot of money for a battery that doesnt last any longer than my current one.
Well, then again filling it is a lot quicker than charging a battery.
Ignore me i guess, i must be in a bitching mood.
It's easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them.
to the Oil Industry.
Laptops and cell phones have already driven batteries to the point where they are useful in cars...
Just think about what the oil industry would do if you could run your electric car on locally made methanol (or ethanol)....
If they're smart, they'll keep this out of the market for as long as possible (watch for exploding fuel-cell laptop horror stories)
But some laptop components are either bog-standard now or come in one of a few formats. Here are the ones that are standard:
The components still specialized are:
> I would rather have smaller laptops than standardised ones.
That's you - but its different strokes for different folks really. Many (most?) people would prefer an open-er laptop specification that could be customized by the system integrator or the end-user. (This is already happening with some system integrators by the way - they purchase laptop barebones kits and build laptops to order)
This would also drive prices down. Of course, the apple's of the laptop world would still have a market share
Also, it states at the end of the article it will take 2-3 years to get to market. It's amazing that the poster of this story can't even read the article
"Toshiba will unveil a prototype DMFC at CeBit next week, but commercialisation of the technology is unlikely to take place until next year"
It says the Intel funded version won't be out 2-3 years.
Sigh. Who can't read the article?
Phillip.
Property for sale in Nice, France
Sure it takes me a couple of hours to fully recharge, but that's what a second battery is for, should I need one.
And how heavy is this 2nd battery? And if your battery dies then I suppose you can buy a second one easily enough at the newagents at the airport?
Also, I don't have to refill, nor throw away spent fuel cells. It sounds like manually refueling would be a pain in the arse [for a laptop].
Eh? It will be just like changing batteries in a walkman. Doesn't sound any great hardship to me.
Vehicles using fuel cells sound much more interesting
Do you know how many toxic batteries are disposed of each year? Even rechargable ones have a limited lifespan. I don't think this is any less important than car fuel cells, even if it's less glamerous.
What would be interesting would be a fuel cell laptop that got maybe 24 hours on a "charge".
Fuel cells are ultra-efficient but you can only get out the amount of energy stored in the fuel source. If you want it to last longer, either use a larger refill pack, or cut down the energy usage of the device.
This just seems like gadgetry for its own sake
You're not that guy that's still kicking himself for turning down The Beatles, are you?
Phillip.
Property for sale in Nice, France
Ummm- Arent regular batteries MUCH more dangerous exposed to naked flames than methanol. Methanol burns, and gives of relatively harmless substances. L/Ion, NI-Cad, and non-rechargable Batteries tend to explode, revealing some fairly nasty corrosive substances and toxic fumes.
OrionRobots.co.uk - Robots From sol
It mentions "fuel cartridges," which raises a whole new set of questions.