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U.S. Jobs Jumping Ship
An anonymous reader writes "As painful as February's big job cuts were, they're even more painful since many of those jobs are never coming back as U.S. employers in a wide range of industries move more and more jobs overseas. CNN has the story." Salon has a good piece detailing how job requirements are changing, asking more and more for less and less pay.
Humanity is so ridiculous in its endless tendency to linearly extend every trend into the infinite future. As a "Daily Show" the other night humored: If an infant keeps its rate of growth for several decades, soon it will be the size of giant office buildings and killing us all! Of course we know that isn't the case, just as we know that the economy shifts and sways, and companies try endless tactics to seem to be doing something. In 3 years this will all seem idiotic, but that won't stop the idiots from doing the same thing during the next cyclic downswing.
The CNN article makes an intersting point good point
In the 1990s, it seemed all one had to do to buy a ticket to Easy Street was learn a programming language or how to manage corporate computer networks.
Okay, so I've learned a dozen ways to shoot my foot clean off -- and now this article asserts that my skills are just as easily found abroad as here locally.
But is that really what is happening. When I read the above quote, I wonder, how many QUALITY programmers are losing their jobs to concerns overseas?
Similarly, if this is the case, okay, so now what? The computers didn't disappear, nor is the need for software going to go away.
Do we work for less? Do we (dare I say it) unionize? Pass laws? Comments, please.
--- have you healed your church website?
It's my firm belief that we are about to invade Iraq because the current batch in W. DC can't figure out how to improve the economy. (Hint: Economies flourish in a stable and peaceful world)
There has to be a lot of pent up demand out there considering that everyone has been stalled for a couple of years now.
No. If there's no demand, there's no demand. Interest rates are at incredibly low levels. Go an idea and can convince a bank to fund it? Go into business, best time ever for loans, no competition for the money. Why? People afraid nothing will succeed and they won't be able to pay back the loan.
I'm quite positive the image projected by the president has 90% to do with the health of the economy, and Bush projects fear and loathing. Clinton (what ever his other warts) projected a positive, inclusive image. It took a while, but economy grew. It started to shrink when it sunk in that the ride was almost over.
If we're saddle with Mr. 'Axis of Evil' for another 4 years, after 2004, we might as well open trade schools for ditch diggers.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
You can't expect the current administration or house to insist upon a tariff on imported services, can you? .... Well you get the picture.
Sure you can, but remember that the american companies like coke, pepsi, McDonalds, KFC, PnG, Nike , etc etc have huge markets outside US, especially in far east populous countries like india, china, japan, korea
Now if govt. of these countries were to impose the same tariff that you speak of on imported american goods,
face it, the world is shrinking day by day, and if affects everybody's life in some way or another
America is a super-power in the world not because of its military , rather because of its economic dominance. But that economy can not be self contained, To be a world leader you have to play the same game on equal fields
To stay competetive in world markets the american companies need to reduce costs at all options, and labor cost is a very convenient option.
for the last time people, I am "frodo from middle eaRTH", not "middle eaST".
Christ, if you think this is bad, thank God that we weren't alive during the Great Depression. That didn't sink us, and this won't either. Also, for those who argue that this time it's different because of globalization: the world was more globalized in 1910 than it is now, because of European colonialism.
"The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than that of whether a submarine can swim" -EWD
Hey, aren't we being selfish?
Think of the people in India that just had their standard of living raised. Who is to say that their living standard is less important than your living standard?
We complain and complain about the Recording Industry backing up a "inferior business model".
So are we! Its time we found something else that we can do better/different.
Let's see...
In the early 70's, you could:
Buy an average car for 1/4 to 1/3 of a yearly average household income.
Buy a house for 2x-5x of a yearly average household income.
Today, its more like:
Buy an average car for 1/2 or more of a yearly average household income.
Houses start at 5x yearly average household income.
But here's the kicker: in the early 70's, there was almost always ONE breadwinner making up the average household income. Now, its almost always TWO.
When I was a kid living in Brooklyn, taxi drivers routinely owned homes and cars, and mom didn't work. Today, Mom and Dad work in some service drone job, and can't make ends meet. And that was true 10 and 20 years ago.
Things have gotten a lot worse.
I don't vote for people like Bush, because they're only concerned with War and God (in that order). I think most of the Republican Party's core values are good, and would benefit this country, so voting Republican is a pragmatic decision to get those policies implemented. IF the Republican party swung things too far to the right, then I WOULD vote democrat.
Liberal-conservative is a phony paradigm that defines the parameters of the debates in a rather silly fashion, but I can't help but to be annoyed with Democratic policies with respect to the economy (and the other way around with civil rights, but only within the last 5 years).
Slashdot: Where people pretend to be twice as smart as they really are by behaving like children.
Perhaps they are sending jobs overseas because they won't have to deal with unions. Remember not too long ago, the dock workers went on strike (at the cost of US economy) despite the fact that they were already highest paid blue collar works and management promised job security. How about the mechanics of United Airlines? UA was facing bankruptcy and they still refused a paycut. RTD (Mass transit system for Denver metro area) bus drivers are threatening to go on a strike lately. RTD already were being subsidized by the cities even when the economy was good because they weren't making any money. Now dispite the fact that the cities are hurting for money and jobs are scarce, they want a raise?
1f u c4n r34d th1s u r34lly n33d t0 g37 l41d
gosh, in hindsight, I cant believe I could have ever doubted the government's plan to increase the number of H1B's to such a ridiculously high number.
now I see that they truly did have our best interests in mind. Employers say "the industry no longer pays salaries like that" when they mean "there are hungry immigrants that are willing to do your job for half your salary"
a big "cheers" to the US government.
A year spent in artificial intelligence is enough to make one believe in God.
To stay competetive in world markets the american companies need to reduce costs at all options, and labor cost is a very convenient option.
Oh, really? Then why is it that it's only the worker's jobs that get offshored? American companies could save many millions of dollars per year by offshoring management jobs, but that never happens.
We have American companies claiming offshore workers are better and cheaper (which is one-half bullshit) except when it comes to management. Now isn't that remarkable? We have American CEOs getting obscene salaries and bonuses for putting American residents out of work.
- The quality of the work being done by Indian (or whatever) programmers (or whatever) varies wildly. Some of it is good, a lot if it is not.
- In my experience, companies like Amex who outsourced their entire IT needs to IBM India (yes, IBM India) and let loose hundreds of employees are now rehiring those same employees (mostly analysts and PMs) through third-tier consulting firms at a much lower cost. So they get the quality they need (because they can't get it from Indians) but they save a bundle of money. It's not uncommon to find a project manager at Amex directing 15 indians that used to be manager or director of so-and-so two years ago. This is (I think) more about deflating the job market than shipping jobs to other countries.
- The perennial "web programmer" and "web designer" and so on is out of work because there is no more market for them. There are no more dotcoms hiring teams of 20 people to "design" three web pages at ~$60K+ per year. No way. But software developers and architects and so on with solid experience and real skills are still finding jobs. The subject of the Salon article sounds to me more like one of those foofy "html programmers" or equivalent than anything else.
The dotcom boom created thousands of jobs that were filled by people with 6 months of experience and a "computer degree" from a community college or Devry. Sorry, but those are gone. No more demand. These people should go back to what they were doing before the went into "computers" to make "big bucks".It sounds callous, but it's true.
Tell you what.... when it's as easy for me to go to another country and work as it is for foreigners to come HERE and work for peanuts.... then maybe I'll think about not complaining about it.
As it is, I'm competing with foreign workers, college educated (at no cost to themselves generally, or they're from one of the few wealthy families in their home region,) who are willing to do the same job for less money because they don't care about having an american standard of living even tho they're living in america, and they aren't as deep in debt as I am from student loans.
Know what? I'd love to spend a few years working in another country. Australia? Yeah.... I can work for three months at a time. Most of Europe? I have to either be independantly wealthy... (be able to prove I can support myself for a given number of months) or have a business to start up. (No.... websites don't count.)
People are bitching about 'protectionism' a lot on this thread... but none of them ever seem to mention the protectionist policies of OTHER COUNTRIES.
When I actually CAN 'follow the jobs' the way people from other countries can, we can talk.
in 1980, the nhouse I am currently living in sold for 40K. Now it is worth 200K. gas was under a buck.
so don't compare 1980 money to tadays.
I would gladly lower my salary to 25K, if the price of everything I pay for was in 1980 prices.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
I would be willing to do that for 15k a year!
%100 dead serious!
I am unemployed and I am about to apply for a 7.50/hr job at OfficeMax stocking shelve's. I moved back in with my parents because I can no longer afford rent. It would look so good on my resume to do any tech work that I would be willing to work for the same pay as a merchandiser at a store.
This is the reason why many jobs are going to India. You guys are not willing to work for this price range. Believe it or not an Indian could do that job for 5k a year! No shit!
20k a year is expensive in the eyes of CIO's. If we volunteer to work for 15k then they might not ship us off to India. If we demand 40k then you can kiss your career goodbye.
http://saveie6.com/
Oh if only the president had a more POSITIVE attitude, then every thing would be better. What a load of crap!!
.com boom wasn't Clintons charisma, it was collective investors' flight of fantasy.
True the uncertainty over Iraq is stalling economic recovery, but the flip side to this is that the bust is so bad precisely because the boom was waaaaayy too big. Nasdaq worth 5400?
No, the Nasdaq was never really worth 5400, people just kept throwing money at the market, inflating it to unsustainable highs. One of the big problems we're facing now is people are complaining about when the Nasdaq will get back that high, when in reality it never should have been even clost to that high in the first place.
In reality the "irrational exuberance" of the late 90's, whether or not attributed to Clinton, is the reason the downturn is what it is and why it is so hard to get out of. In reality the President at the time has very little to do with economy in many circumstances. The
I've had my share of ups and downs in this industry. I started my career in the Savings & Loan industry -- and after that industry went bust in the early 80s, I had to find a new place to make a buck. A similar collapse hit the "web industry" over the last five years (lots of unjustified hype, bad management, etc.) -- and while I wasn't writing web pages or Flash animations, I was affected nonetheless. I worked as a development director/lead technologist at a couple small businesses that killed themselves by leaving reliable industries to "webify" their product. Both companies are gone, but I'm still here.
There's nothing unique to the computer industry when it comes to bust-boom cycles. It happens all the time in other industries. My wife began her working life 25 years ago as a geological drafter -- you know, with pens, ink, fancy templates. The collapse of the oil and minerals industry did more to end her career than any new reliance on computer-aided drafting. Is she crying in her soup? Heck no -- she worked for various social agencies, often for low wages or free, and built herself a new career in disaster recovery and education. Businesses may come and go, but there'll always be disasters. ;)
Right now, I'm doing contract work, writing a book, and placing myself for a "coming thing" that may or not be big in our industry. My wife has a nice, stable job; our kids learned long ago that their Mom and I don't listen to "gimme, gimme." It's sometimes difficult, but we keep surviving. Never surrender, never give up -- a good philosophy from a very funny movie.
All about me
First Ammendment - Why is this even an argument? Republicans tend to want to censor speech more than the dems, so the dems win this one.
Gun Laws - ridiculous. 2nd ammendment is there in the CONSTITUTION. Republicans win this one.
4th Ammendment - Republicans want to search you, your house, your moms house etc in the name of the "war on drugs" and now the "war on terror" Dems aren't much fuckin' better. But dems are a little looser so dems win this one.
Abortion - Well in reality making it illegal doesn't prevent it from happening, it simply makes it punishable. so even if you are against abortion, you have to realize outlawing it is futile. Dems win this one. Women truly have a choice in reality. A choice between a safe & legal abortion or no abortion is better than a choice between a dangerous illegal abortion or no abortion. Even God would agree with this logic.
Corporate welfare vs worker rights/ Labor. Until I own a corporation, I have to consider myself a worker. Dems win this one. How anyone can vote for something that will reduce their wages, reduce their health care, make them work longer hours all so that some asshole in a board room can export thier job to india to make even more money is beyond me. WAKE THE FUCK UP. How 'bout a little self preservation!!!! Unless you own a corporation, you need to see the light!!!
Jails versus Education: hmm, spend money on educating our children so that they will be prepared to lead our country when they inherit it, or cut spending in schools and parks & rec programs only to eventually spend more money on jails to house our misguided uneducated forgotten youth? tough one here. gee, what should we do ?
Democrats win. Republicans are greedy assholes who can afford private shools for their children. What about the rest of the nations. Those punk asses that are not getting education and resort to crime will hopefully rob your house you greedy fuckheads. (unfortunately you rich bastards live ina gated community, so they'll rob my house and the house of other working men and women, which is unfortunate because it's YOUR POLICY that destroyed thier chances of making it in this world).
Corporate friendly env. policy versus environmental friendly environmental policy. Hmm, in my short life time I've seen 200-500% growth in my home town. Land Development is BIG BUSINESS. It's sad to see them rape the land to build a shitload of cheap ass houses all crammed in tight next to eachother. If those greedy fucks would build one or two less houses per project then all the families that moved in would get yards and a little bit of privacy. Instead they are living in a future ghetto that frankly looked better as natural land. That's the friendliest of the land uses. Chemical plants, manufacturing plants, refineries, junk yards. SHEESH!!! This whole country will be one paved piece of shit in less than 50 years. It's fine if you own a big ass ranch in texas, who cares if your refinery pollutes the fuck out of some poor neighborhood in the wrong side of town. Maybe it will kill those "niggas" before you have to arrest them after they drop out of that shitty high school you wouldn't approve the tax dollars to fix up because you wanted some tax cuts to afford to pay off the crooked politician who allowed the refinery. FUCK!!! Democrats win this one too.
You see, aside from the gun thing, republican policy benefits only a small minority of wealthy assholes. The rest of us get screwed every which way in a increasingly painful cycle. We lose our jobs so our kids go to cheap schools which don't get good funding because money is going to corporations so our kids poor and pissed off do drugs or get pregnant or drop out or graduate and go to college despite the odds, then they lose their jobs and their kids go to crap schools, etc. etc. over and over again while more and more of us become poor and a few fortunate a-holes get richer and richer.
well, it can only go on for so long before we unite and kill you you fuckin rich assholes
because I have been enjoined by this Holy Office to abandon the false opinion which maintains that the Sun is the centre
If I had mod points, you'd get them all. Well said.
.Com era wages, but prior to that- the early to mid 90s era.
If companies like HP would simply hire management offshores, or even a low cost, intelligent CEO from another country, they could save millions a year.
But somehow, that isn't happening, is it?
I am for tariffs on good from other countries. Impose them left and right. As I recall, prior to income taxes being imposed (which was supposed to be a temporary thing, btw) we mainly relied on tarrifs. This brought the 'best and brightest' here, instead of now where we ship the best and brightest jobs to them.
I do not see how creating a 'world economy' helps anyone but the rich. It deflates wages. Maybe I am missing the picture here. Maybe there is a grand schema that will allow balance across the globe. If that is the case, then this isn't capitolism, it is socialism, right? Get everyone on an equal ground? But I can't and don't see that. I only see that somehow jobs are harder to find, and those I do find pay a lot less. I am not speaking of
They stuck me in an institution, said it was the only solution, to...protect me from the enemy, myself
Have you tried raising a family on $8/hour lately? Here in Indiana (where prices are also much less than on the East Coast), there are McDonalds hiring for $7/hour. Good luck buying a house, or even renting one, on $8/hour.
Or cut down on the programs, let business boom, and pass that economic gain to the average American? The biggest problem I see with this is that trickle-down economics DON'T WORK. When the people at the top of the economic food chain make more money, they don't pass that money down to the guys making $8/hour, they keep it.
-- Sent from a computer.
I can think of one part of the picture you're missing: In the eyes of 5,000,000,000 people of the 6,000,000,000 on the planet, you are "the rich".
> Maybe there is a grand schema that will allow balance across the globe.
If by "balance", you mean "equally distribute all wealth among all 6,000,000,000 people", here's another part of the picture you're missing.
If you want that kind of "balance", be prepared to give up air conditioning, your automobile, your paved roads, your heart surgeon, your chemotherapy, your MRI scans, your broadband and 56k modems for a 2400-9600 baud serial line, and a couple of hours a day of electricity.
In short, be prepared to live a lifestyle below that of the poorest inner-city welfare mother. If that offends you as a racist stereotype, replace it with "the most inbred hillbillies in the Appalacians".
I won't presume to speak for you, but as for me, I'm not prepared to do that. As a citizen of a Western nation in a capitalist economy, I was born into the top 15% of the planetary socioeconomic pyramid. I like it here. I'm staying here. And I'm willing to pay 20% of my earnings, every year, to the top 1% to keep it that way. (The top 1% currently takes about 40% of those earnings, but that's haggling over price, not a fundamental argument about the principle :)
> I only see that somehow jobs are harder to find, and those I do find pay a lot less. I am not speaking of .Com era wages, but prior to that- the early to mid 90s era.
The first part is called a "recession". They tend to be finite in length.
The second part is called "deflation". It happens to CPU prices when better CPU designs reach the market, and/or when competing companies design a comparable CPU but charges less. It happens to wages when skills become obsolescent, and/or when competing workers offer the same work you do, for less price.
If you're in the CPU business, you can either cut your price, or build a better CPU. If you're in the job market, you can either lower your salary expectations, or learn about a new technology.
Since the government started granting charters for corporations being a public good? Since businesses get many tax benefits that individuals don't get and cry about "lost jobs" any time anyone talks about getting rid of them? Since our tax dollars pay for the promotion of their products to overseas markets? Since we send our sons and daughters overseas to protect their economic interests in other countries?
Perhaps they don't owe me a job, but they sure as hell owe some people in this country jobs for everything that we provide to them.
That is all.
The great depression occurred, IN PART, because worker productivity increased (e.g. more cars and washing machines) but wages did not increase sufficiently. After some time, everyone (OK, many people) had many "things" and a lot of debt. Companies could not sell their new products in sufficient quantities and started having trouble.
If too many US jobs go overseas, something similar might possibly happen. Economics "says" that if too few people can afford to buy your products, you may go out of business. If it happens to too many companies, the "economy" starts going downhill. Eventually, the accumulated capital in the US may be depleted and companies who moved jobs overseas will have no customers.
I was reading through a Java Developer's Journal that had a slight discussion about all these "brilliant" java programmers out of work due to the recession. They made an offhand remark about "Well, now that they have all this spare time, let's see what they come up with if they're really all that brilliant". I don't think I've seen much..
.bomb people, but the real, honest to goodness engineers).
Really, folks, this is really the break some people need. Remember when IBM laid off those thousands of engineers in the 80s? Those engineers couldn't find work, but had lots of ideas, and went and started their own small tech firms which fueled the Silicon Valley upswing. (No, not the
Instead of blogging about not having a job, why not write something? Why not create something that you've always wanted to do but never had the time to do it (and now you're unemployed and you still don't have time?)? Don't just "learn" a new technology, CREATE the new technology. A recession/depression is simply an opportunity for many people and the seeds for success are being sown now.
If you were me, you'd be good lookin'. - six string samurai
i live in Sri Lanka and work for the webdev section of a british dotcom. at the moment the company has 20 webdev people in the UK and 4 in SL (the rest of the team are support staff and grafx ppls), but according to the ceo they are thinking of downgrading the entire uk structure and hiring more people here in SL.
my point is here... by UK standards they are paying us peanuts!! i get paid less than 7% of what the job i do would cost if it were being done by a brit. (trust me, i checked the numbers, a dev guy would get UKP2,000 there i get the equivalent of UKP150)
but this amount lets me make about 10x of minimum wage here which is a decent amount.
but there are downsides to this.
- MOST ASIANS ARE DRONES!!! if you want them to do a piece of work and keep doing it they are perfect. but our society and education system which puts more weight on conformity and herd-following (and no i DO NOT mean chasing a bunch of cows around 8-) ) means that if you want to do something innovative here you got to find those exceptional types who can think and improvise. and those ones are already in the US on their H1B
- most people in asia don't speak english all that well. this leads to confusion and problems in communications with the westerners
i was hired because i am one of those few nonconformists who decided to come back to my country (went to uni in OKC, USA, saw the dot bomb about to drop and buggered off, also my parents run a moderately successful company here), i can think on my feet and i am am bilingual (i speak both languages well enough to pass for a native, in fact when i was in the US i frequently was)..i see my friends trying to make a living in the US and i feel sorry for them (degree holding CS guys stacking shelves in wally world...) personally i would love to get them down here where the cost of living is low, and if you know how to manipulate the system (which, believe me i do) you can live and work. sure you'll miss your mega malls, and seeing the latest movies as they come out, no mtn dew, no game arcades and no DSL.. but we got great weather, cheap housing (by us standards anyway) and beaches...
personally i would LOVE to have a few slashdotters come join me here, and i am already running a dotcom that could use some help (so its not making money atm but i'm working on that part)
i guess the point i am trying to make is this. the US has been training its people for freedom and creativity, the east for drones. put the two together and you get a potent mix. we could use some creative thinkers here, you could do with some drones there.
anyone wanna come mix it up??
Suchetha
learn from yesterday, plan for tomorrow, party tonight
or one out of three ain't bad