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XPde Makes X11 Resemble Windows
Gentu writes "Here is another way of penetrating the Windows market, which might even prove more successful than the current efforts: XPde is a desktop environment that mimics the Windows 2000 look and feel and behavior. Currently on version 0.3, the team has re-created a number of applications from its Windows equivalents, including Explorer." T. cuts in: It looks like they've made a lot of progress since this project was last mentioned.
cool, now you can run xeyes in win2k.
I hate sigs.
...and certainly there is much demand for this - me, for example, who likes to talk up Linux but after years and years of Microsoft brainwashing, I still use their operating system because, like a abused child, I am have got way to comforable with it. But then again, I have invested in a lot of Microsoft specific apps, but I know there are alternatives. Someday, I will switch.
BUT I fear a giant lawsuit from the monster in Redmond. I hope that this project will be hosted from some fair haven, like Sealand or whatever. I hope that some excellent lawyers will come forth, pro bono. Mmmm, maybe this could be the first open source project managed and distributed by a peer to peer network?
I know a lot of older folks who get really used to the one system, and just want it to run better but look the same. If this runs better than regular windows but looks the same, a TON of people will find it accessible -- so long as program installation can catch up too, so installing a program is (more or less) the same/as easy. When I say easy, I mean click and it's on there.
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On my XP box, I have twice the physical memory of the system in your screenshot, yet the amount shown as available is nearly the same.
If you want 2000/XP users to feel comfortable, you Linux guys are going to have to make your system far less memory efficient. Or perhaps you could just divide the displayed available amount in half.
Well, that site is mimicking Windows in more ways than one. Anyone got a mirror?
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Re: people complaining about why make linux look like windows?
Because that is what people are used to right now.
So doing this, is embrace, and extend (since as we all know that linux is far more superior and more powerful than Windows). This strategy is in fact, how microsoft brilliantly overran so many other software markets in their quest to world domination. Fitting, now that we come back and use it on them as well.
Embracing and extending Windows, will beat them at their own game. Eventually, once people have moved over from Windows to 'Embraced Linux GUI' like the one in this article.. then they can migrate to (or just let them discover on their own) the good native linux GUI stuff a bit later on when they are more familiar..
That is the only way in fact, that linux will ever overtake the MS Windows desktop. Most non techies cannot easily make the (massive in their eyes) switch to a new desktop and OS. Embrace & extend works, is proven, and is a good strategy, and we should back it up in order to get people off the Monopoly when we can..
Why does Microsoft have it's death grip on the OS market? Because they average computer user is just too comfortable with Windows since 95, and possibly 3.x. It's not /.'ers that this is really targeted for.
What we should be really happy about is there is a clean XP desktop for X11 we can load on a *nix box to show to our bosses and managers to try to get them to make the *nix switch. Look how easy it is boss!!!My only concern is will the M$ demon come down and smash this for some copyright infringement or something stupid.
Anyone know what IP/copyright/trademark issues are invloved?
I thought people used Linux so they would not have to deal with the Windows horrid GUI?
Nope. People use Linux because they like the CLI, they like Free Software, they like Open Source, they Hate Microsoft, or they're just Cheap Ethical Bastards.
Very, very few people use Linux becaues they think that it's got a better GUI than Windows.
Maybe they'll manage to build a decent file manager. As much as I hate to say it, for MY USE, Windows file manager destroys all the Linux equivalents (Konqueror, Nautilus, etc.). I'm not saying that either one of those is bad, but both have problems that just put me off. For most of my file managing needs I use Midnight Commander, which sucks in an Xterm. I actually can see the use of copying XP's interface. Unlike most here, I'm a REAL WORLD computer user (that was a joke. Laugh.). The people that I know freak out if one of their icons goes missing. There's no way they'd ever learn how to use Gnome. But if you take a distro like Knoppix and throw a familiar face on it, they might change their minds.
'Standards' in computing only impress those who are impressed by things like 'standards'.
They screens look gorgeous. I don't know how they can use the copyrighted elements from Microsoft, but they look great.
Here is a real screenshot mirror with all the screem shots included. Thumbnails and full size:
Screen Shot Mirror
A lot of people will complain that linux shouldn't be copying Windows, but should be innovating. As someone who spends a lot of time using both systems, I am more comfortable with the Windows GUI than any of the linux desktops I've used. Maybe it is just because I have been using it since Windows 95, and the linux interfaces are all so different. No matter why I prefer it, the look and feel of an OS actually plays a large part in how much I like it.
I love the backend of *nix, but could never stand any of the desktops enough to use it as my primary OS. With this project, I can have an OS with a nice backend AND an aesthetically-pleasing, usable front end.
Sure this isn't innovating, but consider what is required to come up with a good GUI. Microsoft spends a LOT of money doing research to see what people like in a GUI, whereas linux innovation is often the result of one developer deciding, "Hmm, this feature is cool - I'll make a window manager do that". It isn't really reasonable to expect a better (for "normal" computer people) GUI from a group of developers than a company doing actual research.
Unfortunately, the server stopped responding after I got the home page, but the few tiny shots there show things like the Display control panel (an interface I really like and have wanted in linux for a long time), and explorer. If they have a few more control panels (Add/Remove programs, Network connections, and a subset of System), this might really be enough to get me to switch my primary OS.
My server
I may have a few quibbles with the Microsoft GUI but two things that I seriously lack in Linux is consistent behaviour for copy/paste commands and working (as in "no configuration needed") keymappings/character encoding for my national characters in _all_ applications. This has never been a problem in any windows version (counting all the way from 3.0).
Why doesn't anybody mimic that?
I thought that when Microsoft won the Apple v. Microsoft case it set the precedent that you can't copyright "look and feel"? It will be interesting to see what Microsoft does now that the shoe is on the other foot...
I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
I'm not sure how necessary the 'look and feel' aspect, in and of itself, is really necessary. What Linux (or, insert favorite alternate graphical OS/desktop environment here) really needs is more polish on the various little un-glamorous things that make the desktop environment, as a whole, sing. I've got my wife happily using gnome 1.4 on RH7.3, and the differences in interface operation don't bother her. What would make life more pleasant for us would be various other things like, oh, just off the top of my head:
(1) as 'root', I install a gnome app, but it goes into some completely *screwball* menu location that I removed long ago, only to show up again, with no choice(s) for me. Contrast with the install-shield stuff that gives me a choice based on currently existing menu layout.
(1a) in response to "but gnome application RPM's don't facilitate this" type responses... maybe that should go on the list too.
(2) as a normal user, a way to possibly install a self-only gnome app somewhere in the home directory (at least for the programs that aren't doing anything that needs root-level authority to do stuff). See (1) regarding giving choice of install location (both in filesystem and on the user menu)
(3) a solid network browser a la network neighborhood.
I could list off a few other gripes too (drag/drop and other non-visual things), and yes, I'm aware that such things Are Being Worked On (tm?), but this has been the case for a while. And saying "have you tried KDE?" isn't necessarily valid here... I've "started over" to get our boxes running gnome (as opposed to win'98) and I've got little motivation to "start over" again... so maybe that makes the above a bit gnome-specific (probably true). All this mainly to say that there are issues that are causing annoying little problems, and they aren't tied up specifically with how closely the desktop / window manager "mimics" the appearance of windows. Don't get me wrong, you'll get linux off my system after its pried from my cold, dead hands. (Oh, and before the "get off your butt and contribute" flamers get going, I do have a project or two in the works, thanks very much.
Personally, I think the MS GUI peaked at Windows 2000, and went decidedly downhill with XP.
And that is your opinion. When I say the "Blue Gree Red" candy crap I said the same thing. Just last week I bought a Sony laptop which had WinXP and it was my first time really using the OS. Thankfully this OS is skinned, so dealing with that color combo is trivial. After giving the OS AND the new UI a fair shot (I did NOT revert to "classic mode"), I actually like it a lot better than my Win2K box. The grouped task bar is really nice (now I see why IE doesn't have tabbed browsing), the new start menu drove me nuts so I switched it to "classic" for a while, then switched back. Now it's growing on me. The larger window control icons (Close, Maximize, Minimize) are very welcome when using a laptop's less-than-precise pointing device.
Sure, I get pissed off when I can't figure out how to get to something because I'm so used to where it was in Win2K, but that doesn't make XP worse, that makes me used to 2K. If after using XP for a month I still can't figure it out, well then it's unintuitive. However, different does not equal unintuitive. The XP GUI is by all means not perfect, and XP as a whole seems like a "point" release from Win2K - in many cases it's not worth the money to upgrade from a Win2K box. However, I'm happy with it on my laptop.
YMMV.
There is no longer anything that can be done with computers that is nontrivial and clearly legal. -- Paul Phillips
Real world example of how a stupid windows theme is good:
I just opened up a new office with a friend of mine. Not one bit of MS anywhere in our office - it's all Linux and open source. Getting to the point - my partner can use a computer for all the necessary office tasks, but she is only a user. She is not even remotely computer savy - installing a windows program would be a nightmare for her!
Anyway, I set up her account to use the Windows XP look-a-like theme for KDE - Fischer Price colors and all. When I showed it to her, she barely raised an eyebrow. The only questions she has asked so far are about changing wallpaper and enabling email notification sounds (and she also wanted to know if Evolution would put little smiley icons in her email like AOL's software). Other than that, she just plugs away.
I wouldn't be caught dead with an XP look-a-like on my desktop, but they serve a purpose. Three years from now, my partner will have lost all recollection of how things work in windows - until then, the windows theme helps gloss over some of the differences.
What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
Yeah, i can see it now. My mother calls tech support at [major manufacturer].
She thinks she's using Windows because it looks like the last computer she used.
She's calling tech support because she her copy of Office doesn't install for some reason - yes, she can see the install disk in Explorer, Control Panel's Add/Remove Programs is there, but alas, she can't install it.
Why on Earth would we want to increase the confusion AND admit that Windows is the de facto desktop?!
There are 01 types of people in this world. Those that understand binary, and me.
I'm sure a lot of people will love this. I'm not sure it's really the right way to concentrate, though. I know a lot of people don't like learning new things, but I believe that most people are going to care more about the applications rather than the interface. Most newbies I've come across have no problem getting used to WindowMaker or KDE etc.. In fact most of the people I've introduce to Linux have surprisingly preferred WindowMaker to KDE or Gnome. People who have never used anything other than windows.
It's when they realize that they don't have the applications that they love, and the so-called "viable replacements" well.. suck compared to what they use on windows.
I love Unix. I'm an ex programmer and sys-admin. For the past 5 years I worked as both and concentrated on Linux, Solaris and OpenBSD. I'm a guitar teacher now because I got sick of the IT world but I still love technology and Unix with a passion and feel right at home when I'm using bash, vi, gcc etc.
But I use Windows on my desktop.
I use Windows because of applications. I do a lot of sound recording and processing when I'm at home and I just can't find viable replacements for Cubase SX, Fruityloops, Cooledit Pro, Kazaa and not to mention I'm still hooked on The Sims and I like to know that if I walk into a software store I can take anything off of the shelf and bring it home and know that it'll work.
Worst of all I hate compiling software. Yeah I know funny since I'm a coder but seriously I don't have the time in a day to spend 3 hours trying to make a program that I download work on my system. I hate downloading an rpm and having it bitch about dependencies especially dependencies that I can't satisfy.
It's not worth the trouble anymore. When I was 15 and started using Redhat 4.something it was fun and I flew. I picked it up and fell in love and I tried to convert everyone and their grandmother to Unix. But 6 years later I have a house to maintain, kids to raise, a wife to spend time with, a job to work at etc. When I sit down at the computer I expect to click a little button and have things just work. Like magic. I wanna click "download" and in 5-10 minutes be running the program. No compiling. No dependancies etc.
So to wrap all this ranting up. I'm just not sure how important a desktop enviornment that mimicks Windows is going to benefit newbies. I think applications need more thought and work first. If you have to compile it to work then it's just not worth it. If it only works on Redhat 7.2 and not Slackware then it's just not worth it. I know people realize that I just don't want to see that realization forgotten and lost.
</rant>
Prevent email address forgery. Publish SPF records for y
This is one of my pet peeves about linux as a desktop OS. None of the developers and zealot users seem to understand that on a Mac or a Windows machine, you can cut and paste images, video clips, sounds, etc. This is what we are complaining about when we say that X11's cut and paste functions suck. I don't mind having two different systems (actually, it's kinda useful) I mind having two systems that both only work on plain text!
Try this:
Go to a windows system
Copy some formatted text in an IE window, and paste it into a Word document.
Copy an image from an IE window, and past it into a Word doc.
Now try doing the same thing on a Linux box. Doesn't work, does it? Put *that* in your X11 is superior pipe and smoke it. X11's cut and paste system is *brain* *dead*! It's not about keybindings, it's not about needing three button mice, it's about moving beyond flat effing ASCII text!
Sorry for the rant, but nobody ever seems to understand that to Mac and Windows converts, cut and paste is more than psting the right plain text into the right place most of the time.
0 1 - just my two bits
Likewise if I were to start a clothing company, the first item on my agenda would be to make underpants that are exactly like Fruit of the Loom Y-fronts. Because that's what consumers are used to. It doesn't matter that you can make all sorts of underpants in different shapes and virtually everyone will understand where they're supposed to put their legs and hips, that you put your feet through these holes in this order, and pull them up. Oh no. Unless they look like FotL Y-fronts, people aren't going to buy them.
Otherwise "What's this?" they'll cry, as they see a slightly more roomy pair of underpants, with stitching in the right places for the comfortable, soft, material we'd be using to make them. "I don't understand this, I mean, where are my legs supposed to go? It's not obvious because it's a slightly different shape, and more roomy, and there's stitching in a slightly different pattern! I can't wear these!"
Now, ok, the cloned underpants are likely to fall apart as the underlying material used to build them doesn't actually fit with the FotL Y-front template, but that's a small price to pay. Who cares if Squiggleslash Underwear gets a deservedly poor reputation for making knock-off undergarments that fail even quicker than Wal*Mart's? I mean, the point is that people are DUMB! They're stupid! Just as they would never, say, understand a user interface like Apple's, because it's not like Windows, likewise they could never understand how to put on a pair of underpants that look slightly different to the Fruit of the Loom ones!
And, of course, by introducing these direct clones of FotL Y-fronts, we'll be making the world a better place. We'll be introducing choice. The choice between two identical pairs of underpants. Can you imagine what a great gain for civilization that will be?
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
I've got my wife happily using gnome 1.4 on RH7.3, and the differences in interface operation don't bother her.
I've thought about this some, and I actually think that as a more experienced computer user, I'm actually the one with a bigger problem switching from Windows to Linux. I think my mom would react pretty much the same way as your wife did when switching. You set her up with a few easy shortcuts, email, web browser, soitaire, and she just has 3 easy buttons to press, the same way she did before.
I, on the other hand, have to relearn just about everything I've ever known. What the hell are all these partitions for? How do I easily install and uninstall programs? Which one of these oddly named programs performs function X? I know that if I actually wanted to take the time to learn all this stuff, I could, and I'd probably be happy using Linux, but to be honest, I really don't want to spend the time. If I could, however transition over to a Linux-based system that looked and felt the same, I'd do it in a second. And by look-and-feel I don't just mean the start menu, I mean the locations of various settings, etc.
I know I can't be the only one who feels this way, and that's why I think projects like XPde are definitely worth pursuing. I looked at the screenshots and so far, I like what I see. I might even take a little time to try to get it setup and toy around with it.
Anyways, the whole point of my post was, it's alot easier for people who don't do many varied tasks on a computer to transition from clicking one of these three buttons in Windows to one of those three buttons in Linux...