Slashdot Mirror
Web Site Hacks Rise as War Rages in Iraq
An anonymous reader noted a Reuters news story talking about Website Defacement during the war. Apparently protesters and hackers are defacing hundreds of US and UK sites, both corporate and government.
← Back to Stories (view on slashdot.org)
I remember this also happening during the war in Yugoslavia a few years back.
nobody can get to them anyway, they're too busy sucking bandwidth with Flash ads saying "WAR!" and streaming RealMedia. Heh.
At least after Sept 11, news agencies went to static HTML versions of their news sites.
The less fluff, the better. We just want the friggin news.
how many of these hack attacks are exploiting known issues?
Perhaps, if we can't explain why we're at war, we shouldn't be at war?
All this does is make other hackers/crackers/what ever look bad. It will not convert people. It will just piss them off.
Free speech is getting expensive...
I went to 4 anti-war protests, and no one could explain why we were truely at war.
Why are you asking people who think the war is unjustified to justify the war?
The great advantage of having a reputation for being stupid: People are less suspicious of you.
Does anyone else find it offensive that the author draws a distinction between "protesters" and "patriotic" hackers? They seem to imply that protesting the war would be unpatriotic.
It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.
Why is it not the other way around?
rm -rf all Iraq government sites
It just doesnt seem like the smartest thing to do, defacing your own national websites. Hey, our troops are fighting for us across the ocean, lets not support them. You voted, your leader chose to go to war, what is your problem?
Also, hey, our economy is doing poorly, lets deface some corporate sites in a hope they lose millions to lots sales and extra security costs.
Stupid stupid stupid. If you want to protest a war, have a PEACEFUL protest. Protesting a war by doing illegal and hurtful things is the pot calling the kettle black.
These people lose all public respect and support by doing stupid, negative things.
[I can picture a world without war, without hate. I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it]
And it's always covered up fast and never mentioned like it didn't happen.
I saw one. They didn't even use any exploit code. They got all the way in and posted a story to the front page just through configuration errors! hahah!
But unless your lucky enough to catch a glimpse of it before it disappears you will probably not hear much about it. Slashdot likes to cover these sorts of things up. Watch for this to be modded down fast or my ip banned.
Ever wonder why slashdot fucks up and no one can post or there is a static frontpage etc. ? well that what the aftermath of a defacement looks like.
Some l33t h4X0R says: "Ohh YeaH BabY...Ur SiTe Has BeeN DeFaceD."
Believe it or not, Mr L337 has acurately described what he is doing with this "protest". He is defacing public/private property, and that is a crime.
The protests on the Streets of San Francisco are not "Civil" though they are assuredly disobedient. Sitting outside of a lunch counter, or not taking the bus, that is civil disobedience. Dragging newspaper vending machines into the street to block trafic, or breaking into a server to alter index.htm is illegal.
Lets remember that words have meanings, and in describing these acts, "Civil" is not an accurate term.
"Inattention makes clowns of us all" -Bean
Yesterday, in Boston, protesters sat down and blocked the Mass Ave Bridge, a major 4 way bridge. They also blocked people from getting to work at the Boston Stock Exchange and government buildings. Why prevent people from getting into work that have nothing to do with the war? Let them earn their living. What if an ambulance or emergency crew need to get over the bridge? Why are you drawing our police away from homeland security issues?
I have also seen a lot of graffitti- notably defacing of said Mass Ave Bridge with permanent spray paint. I have also seen private business buildings hit with the "no war" graffitti. I think some protesters are just in it to get on TV and know very little about what they're protesting.
Feel free to protest, but don't infringe on my rights when doing so.
Script Kiddies like protesters have found out:
Breaking shit is a whole lot of fun! Now... If only I can find a cause to make my conscience feel good about doing it!
This is pretty much the level of sophistication of most of the antiwar protests I've seen thus far, in the streets or on the internet.
If I was a protester with genuine antiwar convictions, I'd be pretty annoyed that my credibility was being destroyed by 14 year-old script kiddies... not to mention the uninformed, loony-left, stringy-haired wannabe hippies pulling juvenile "look at me!" stunts on the streets of San Francisco.
Perhaps I could explain it to you, but then I'd have to kill you?
Seriously though, I'd wager there's classified intelligence information that points to future agression by Iraq which is best handled before it becomes a significant danger.
(or at least that's the only situation that I can come up with that could even excuse the unwarranted agression )
The point is not that there is no explanation, there certainly is. The point is that the protestors don't take the time to understand what the reasons are, and instead blindly protest under the umbrella of "war is bad". If anti-war protestors can't even be bothered to understand the pro-war arguements, how can they expect to effictively counter them?
Stupid like a fox!
These vandals are no different than the terrorist regime of Saddam Hussein or the terrorist network of Al Queda. The only difference is that they use a computer as their weapon of choice, instead of a gun. They should be jailed.
Or Bush, disobeying international law, setting a dangerous precedent of preemptive war (which because it was accepted that this was wrong kept us from killing eachother during the gulf war), removing civil rights from his citizens, killing innocents with laser targeted bombs powerful enough to level city blocks (Yeah, great, the centre of the blast was the military headquarters... too bad you took out a 3 block radius of apartments around it.)
The only difference is that he is a politician with a large army, instead of a gun. He should be jailed.
Once upon a time, protest was a means of bringing attention to an idea that was either being suppressed or ignored. However, the anti-war protesters instead are just being obnoxious. Everyone, at least hear in America, has not only heard the protesters opinions over and over again, as each week's protest is carried by every major news agency in the world. America has heard the protesters' reasoning but they've rejected them to the tune of 70% or so the populace. Protesters...getting louder is just making you look obnoxious.
Don't worry, when the Patriot Act expansion goes through, they will be labeled as terrorists and removed from their homes at gun point. They will be whisked off without trial, without thier families (or lawyers) being told where they are. They will be beaten and tortured, and if they let them go, they had better not talk about it. You see, if they complain to their congressmen or senators, that's an extra charge against them.
It all sounds terribly fair eh? Well now, you may think so, but remember who gets to say who is a terrorist. Are you a union member? Being treated unfairly? Haven't seen a raise for 5 years? Strike you say? Well careful there cowboy, your job is essential to the operation of American interests, and you're disrupting commerce. Terrorist!
OK, maybe you're not a union member. Let's say you belong to a group that wrote some cool encryption tool. Well my friend that nasy encryption could aid the enemy. Aid a terrorist? You're a commu -- I mean terrorist! You're little group is busted!
These are just two examples of how this administration could easily take advantage of this situation (as if they haven't already) to force issues to go the way of their lobbyists. Think it can't happen here? Yeah, I'm sure the Germans said all the time "Just think, another 4 years and we'll be in war, branded as inhuman monsters, and killing massive amounts of innocent Jews. Damn that's gonna be fun". Nobody sees this stuff coming, people just get swept up in it.
You have the technical ability and cutting edge hacking tools to crack into a major government website and deliver the ultimate statement on the state of affairs that just might be read by millions... ...and you put "Ohh YeaH BabY...Ur SiTe Has BeeN DeFaceD."
I'm sure someone probably tried. It sounds like most of the hacks were done by script kiddies, so if Reuters has a decent IT staff they were probably fine.
Now, if some cracker was to break into the enviromental controls for Saddams bunker and sufficate his dumb ass, I don't the US would be that pissed about the situation, other than slapping some general around and saying "Why didn't you think of that dipshit!"
However, defacing websites only sends one message... your an idiot who can use script kiddie tools...
Why don't you do something more productive, like participate in the Democratic process and let your elected officals know how you feel about the war, what you think your country should be doing to prevent war.
Yes Francis, the world has gone crazy.
Umm, perhaps the reason they can't explain why we're truly at war, is because they can't comprehend ANY good reason to launch a massive, unprovoked invasion, against the clear will of the international community and against international law, against a country that poses little threat to the country launching the attack?
Dude.. 45 countries have supported us. thats three TIMES the number who would have had to vote positive in the UN. Of those who dont, only a handful really matter. get the facts straight. (And realize several of them are the neighboring states..w hich brings us to... )
I have to admit I can't explain why we're truly at war either, economicly it will be disasterous, it has ruined the international diplomatic ties the US once had, and it makes the citizens of the Uninted States more at risk to future terrorist attacks and in the worst case senario could start World War III
Economically, its already helping. Looked at the stock exchange lately? The International Diplomatic Ties basically mean we are the enforcement arm of the UN when they want us, but god forbid they take our feeligns into acount when their cushy oil deals with Iraq may go up in smoke. Where were all these protestors when Clinton got us into Bosnia? For far fewer crimes against humanity than Hussein has racked up, we are over there to this day!.
Come, come, since you're so ready to critisize others for being unable to explain the cause of this war, explain the real reason we are at war, instead of alluding to it in an ambigious manner...
The real reason is threefold, at least. One) Hussein will use the weapons he is undoubtedly building against Israel soon enough. That is a doomsday scenario you dont want to see. Two) He (hussein) has been thumbing his nose at us for 12 years, ignoring our sanctions, and recently, openly mouthing off. THere is little doubt that he has ties to the terrorist activities of the last several years, at least in those who actually read the press, and dont necessarily swallow the leftist jargon hook, line, and sinker. And because we cannot continue to get black eyes and NOT retaliate. The Sept 11 attack was a black eye.. but not nearly the black eye left on us by Hussein continuing his reign of death and destruction in Iraq after we supposedly stopped him 12 years ago. Even Colin Powell says it was a mistake not to finish the job when we had the chance.
If we leave the US as a huge target that never retaliates, there is _nothing_ stopping every islamic crackpot in the world from taking a shot at us. They know we will do nothing. Bush promised to take after Afghanistan and any other country who harbors, funds, or makes possible terrorists/isms, and unlike our previous president, he is following through on his promise.
Those reasons, along with the very real threat that he has nuclear weapons, are the reasons we are at war. (And no, the nuclear weaposn are not a threat to us.. but if you pay any attention to the international politics you quote above, using them against Israel WOULD start world war 3.)
Maeryk
Feminine Protection? What is that? A chartreuse flame thrower?
I love the doublethink brought out over the last few years.
Having War will give Peace
Disobeying the UN will give it purpose
Cowardice is the refusal to injure thousands of innocent civilians living in Baghdad opposing a major power's whim.
Bravery is the ability to order the deaths of 100,000 Iraqis without wincing or bringing up your Caesar salad.
Apparently, well-fed young men sitting in millions of dollars' worth of military hardware and dropping bombs from 30,000ft on impoverished people who have already had all their arms taken away are exemplars of 'bravery'.
War on Terrorism... In the words of Terry Jones: "You can wage war against another country, or on a national group within your own country, but you can't wage war on an abstract noun. How do you know when you've won?"
Geez... The doublespeak is astounding.
My favourite one was the attack of "Shock and Awe" that the US is parading, or as the CBC puts it "Anger and Confusion". No one is shocked, no one is awed, everyone is angry and everyone is confused in Iraq.
It's pretty darn hard to be in awe of a nation that is invading you.
Oh wait... we aren't invading iraq, or occupying iraq. Even though they are raising american colours over Iraqi cities that have been.. umm.. liberated...
Yeah.. that makes sense.
Stop playing word games, open your eyes, and you'll see what's happening.
Or you can just live in doublethink and apathy. That's the way a good patriotic citizen should live I guess.
Defacing web sites to protest the war is the stupidest thing I've heard of since those congress critters banned the word "french" from the capitol cafeteria menu.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
War puts an end to economic speculation, increases spending and generally drives the world markets up. If you've been paying attention to the business news, almost all markets are in the green, trading is good and commodity prices are down. The DOW has gained more in the past 2 days than in the past 3 years.
All at the expense of Iraq, of course.
I just wish that the government wouldn't spend their lives so cheaply
Do you think that the US Gov't is spending the lives of its soldiers cheaply? I can't think of any army in history that places so much value on the lives of individual soldiers as today's US Army. To accomplish a given mission, the Army would rather spend millions of dollars on high tech surveillance and "smart" missiles than risk the life of a single US soldier in actual combat.
The soldiers may be brave and willing, but the Army is so risk-adverse they are willing to do almost anything, at any cost, to avoid American combat casualties.
I wouldn't be surprised to learn that at the end of the war, more soldiers die from accidents than actual combat. Probably, the Army's mortality rate won't be much higher than it would be for a similar-sized group driving on American highways, or smoking American cigarettes.
So you assume that just because we don't agree with you, we must be ignoring you? Why is that? Because you think you have some kind of monopoly on The Truth or something? You're no better than you claim Bush to be, if that's really your attitude.
You have rights. I have rights. I cannot interfere with your rights, and you cannot interfere with mine. And yes, that means that if you wish to protest, you must do so in such a way that doesn't disrupt people's lives. Not only are you not attracting converts by doing so, you're in fact breeding resentment among the very people you should be courting.
Yes, the so-called PATRIOT act is a gross violation of everything this nation stands for. That's no excuse to violate people's rights even further.
The problem with forums is that you usually wind up preaching to the converted. Witness Slashdot for instance. We have several groups of converted and they all preach to each other and war with their opposition. But... nothing is ever accomplished:
-Linux vs. Windows
-MP3 vs. OGG
-Corporations are good vs. Corporations are evil
-Capitalism vs. Any other viable option
-Conservative vs. Liberal
-GNOME vs. KDE
etc...
Forums are, for the most part, a waste of time. The only real way to get your message heard (especially if it is an unpopular one) is with acts that really inconvenience others. As you said, it's a lot like spam. Those folks, as much as they should be flayed alive, are smart enough to know that their method works. Even though it inconveniences others, their message gets heard.
Sometimes the only way to get a message across is to jump up and down and yell "fire" in a crowded theater while holding up a sign saying "I oppose the War in Iraq".
Un-news
A Patriot is someone who loves their country, and works to help better it.
A Patriot is not silent on government corruption, illegal wars, or anything else that they think hurts the long-term health of the country.
A Patriot does criticize. They criticize at times of extreme political unrest. They ask questions when questions need to be asked.
And yes, a Patriot will perform acts of civil disobedience, when extreme situations warrent it.
A Patriot does not, under any circumstances, cowtow to the party line and 'fall in' as to not 'cause ripples'. A Patriot stands up and shouts to the fucking ceiling, 'something is wrong', when they feel something is wrong.
(And you know what's really funny? I'm Canadian. You know, one of those countries that's not 'the greatest nation in the whole world'. Whattajoke that phrase is. The hubris knows no bounds.)
If Jesus wants me it knows where to find me.
From the article:
Like graffiti, defaced Web sites are considered little more than a nuisance. The message tends to get wide exposure, but the damage to the victim is minimal. Web site operators typically have the site restored within a matter of hours.
Will the media ever learn that a seemingly "innocent" act of defacing a website causes a major headache for the people who have to patch the hole and make sure the rest of their systems weren't compromised? Of course, what should I expect from an article that thinks that crackers and "hackers" are the same thing.
I was wondering if anyone could explain the logic behind protesting a war that is already started?
Sure.
Some people believe that thousands of Iraqi women, men and children are dying, hiding in bomb shelters or otherwise suffering for no good reason other than Bush's immediate political needs.
Those people feel the need to should ``not in my name'' to the world's face. It is difficult to blame them.
You've got to be kidding. The entire world has been pleading with the US to present some evidence that this war is justified, and the US keeps coming up empty. You think we have secret info that we can't share with the world that would justify it? If it existed the Bush admin would have brought it out in order to get the UN mandate it sought. In the absence of real evidence, we are just supposed to assume there is secret evidence somewhere they won't tell us about?
Dude.. 45 countries have supported us. thats three TIMES the number who would have had to vote positive in the UN.
45 countries' governments, not 45 countries' populations.
Of those who dont, only a handful really matter.
China matters, France matters, Germany matters, Russia matters, Canada matters, India matters. These are the big players around the world today. How much US foreign policy does Albania influence? This doesn't even take into account the fact that although many governments are with us, much of their population is against us, as is the case in Spain and Japan, and almost certainly any Arab members.
Economically, its already helping. Looked at the stock exchange lately?
a) a one-week rally does little to mark the end of a multi-year recession,
b) I think he may be referring to the record-breaking deficits we're already racking up as a result. To say that this is helping the economy and then to point at one rally is not convincing.
One) Hussein will use the weapons he is undoubtedly building against Israel soon enough. That is a doomsday scenario you dont want to see.
Since when does speculation build the foundation for unilateral military action? Even if you're right, you're assuming he could continue to develop these weapons with the entire world's eyes trained on him.
Two) He (hussein) has been thumbing his nose at us for 12 years, ignoring our sanctions, and recently, openly mouthing off. THere is little doubt that he has ties to the terrorist activities of the last several years, at least in those who actually read the press, and dont necessarily swallow the leftist jargon hook, line, and sinker.
a) Thumbing your nose at the U.S. does not justify a war.
b) Once again, linking Iraq to Al Qaeda is pure speculation until someone comes up with some real evidence. We've been pursuing this angle for almost a year now, and have yet to produce a convincing argument. If the administration had what even they considered to be a convincing argument, they would be waving it for the world to see at every single press conference.
If we leave the US as a huge target that never retaliates, there is _nothing_ stopping every islamic crackpot in the world from taking a shot at us.
There was a huge campaign in afganistan that overthrew an islamic fundamentalist regime, and I think we made our point very clearly. Attacking Iraq, which is not a fundamentalist nation (it's not even an Islamic nation), is not making a point about Sept. 11th. There are dozens of hotter terrorist spots we could be focusing on.
Those reasons, along with the very real threat that he has nuclear weapons, are the reasons we are at war.
Absolutely unfounded. Not only do we have zero evidence of any Iraqi nuclear capability (after years of searching for it), but there are dozens of other dangerous nations that DO have nuclear capabilities, and we seem to have little interest in them.
The original post was right on the money. If we take away the speculation and the emotions, it leaves us with a very weak case for going to war. The majority of people and governments of the world recognize how weak the case really is, and that is why there is very little support for this war abroad.
don't make others miserable trying to drive your point home
I wonder what the Iraqi people would have to say about that, seeing as how they're dying and everything.
sigs are dumb.
Believe it or not, Mr L337 has acurately described what he is doing with this "protest". He is defacing public/private property, and that is a crime.
... both broke laws, and did jail time, in efforts to show such laws were unjust and should be repealed. They succeeded.
... they probably expect to commit and crime and get away with it. If so, then you are right in pointing out that what they are doing isn't civil disobedience, else they'd turn themselves in and allow themselves to be arrested to bring more attention to the issues they are protesting. Instead, they are likely just petty vandals using an opportunity to strike out at institutions they hate.
... I don't like the corporatization of America, or the corporate hijacking of the UN through the WTO and WIPO, any more than the next person. However, I cannot relate to or condone their behavior either ... unless they turn themselves in and face the music, they are merely vandals, not civilly disobedient protestors.
Very true.
The protests on the Streets of San Francisco are not "Civil" though they are assuredly disobedient.
"Civil" in civil disobedience refers not to civility (politeness), but to civilian, or disobedience to civil authority. There is a profound difference in both definition and implication.
In other words, the actions of those protestors snarling traffic in SF may not be civil (def: polite or cordial), but it most assuredly is "civil disobedience" (disobedience to civilian authority).
A person engaging in civil disobedience expects to be arrested and to "pay" for their crime, but choose do break the law regardless as a political statement. Ghandi and Martin Luthar King, Jr. are two such examples
A protestor on the street of San Francisco blocking traffic is most certainly engaged in "civil disobedience" and, unless they are an imbecel (quite possible based on some of the rhetoric I've seen from that direction), they fully expect to be arrested and pay for their crime. This tradeoff is worthwhile in their view, as it gives them media exposure with which they can get their message across.
Web defacement might possibly be another such form of civil disobedience, though I suspect you're right in that those doing so don't expect to get caught
I can relate to the hatred (in part)
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
I really don't think they do.
This is not directed at you BunjiX, but rather all those brainwashed protesters against the war. I just happened to relpy to your comment since you brought up the point that these people can't find a sufficient reason to go to war.
I am 100% in support of this war and I am hopeful that they destroy Saddam and his bunch. We are told that the reason we are having this war is because Saddam has weapons that he intends to use. That is a secondary issue for me. I am for this war and the removal of Saddam for the benefit of Iraqi people.
There are very evil people in this world, and Saddam is one of them. He needs to be dealt with. If you are too French to do anything about it, then get out of the way.
When I lived in Japan, I remember walking into a train station full of people, there was a large highschool student kicking and pounding a kid half his size in the face. The smaller kid's lips were both split in several places and he was missing a few teeth. His nose was bleeding and his whole face was swollen. He was not fighting back; only trying to get away. However, the bigger kid wouldn't let him. What was every last stinking coward in the train station doing? Not a damn thing.
I approached to put a stop to it, and was finally joined by 5 or 6 security people from the train station. Until then, nobody did anything. They all just sat there and watched this small kid getting beating to a bloody heap. Some of them had the intelligence and insight to comment on what a shame it all was and how it was wrong, but that was it. No action. They might as well been beating the kid themselves. Every last person in that train station was a stinking coward in my opinion.
In the case of the war, Saddam is the bully that is oppressing, and at times torturing and killing his people. All the anti-war morons act like Iraqi people enjoy the same rights and freedoms we have and we are infringing upon their peaceful way of life. Well, they don't enjoy the life we have you brainwashed idiots! If you pulled this kind of "protest"crap in Iraq YOU WOULD BE KILLED!!!
To me, anti-war folk are the same types of cowards that stood in that train station in Japan ten years ago; sharing their self-righteous, prolix commentary with each other in a state of absolute impotence while pitying the victims of the world but not doing anything about it; too worried for their own skins to do the right thing and help.
There is evil in this world, and it is up to the decent people of the world to do something about it. If you're too afraid to act, then get out of the way and let those who have some guts set things right so the people of Iraq can at long last have some peace.
It's about helping those who can't help themselves. It's about doing what's right. It's about creating eventual peace. It's not about your beloved leftist politicking and your hatred of Republicans, President Bush, oil and SUVs. You people "protesting" make me sick.
Is it just me, or does it seem that we would be better off if high schools taught a class in things like well-managed protest, writing letters to representatives, contacting the media and generally affecting society without being an asshole?
By not supplying a factual reason for going to war the U.S. is set on a course which isn't the best one. Bush has single handedly set a precedent.. Presidents and PMs of the world can attack nations by saying "We have evidence which we can't share you, but trust us, this is worth it." This is dangerous.
And no, there is no link between Saddam and Bin Laden. Cheney claimed their was citing a report between Al Queda and an Iraqi officer in Prague, but that was proven to be false. Bush has said screw you to diplomacy, the UN, NATO, proving proof to wage war.. Domestically we are in a long term recession and his tax cut is bankrupting social security. Domestically and internationally bush is screwing all Americans. While he wages war spending trillions, school kids can't go to school because there's no funding for their school and their buildings aren't maintained.
Bush will go down as the worst president in history when all is said and done.
2 years and no mod points. Join reddit. Because openness is good.
Oil prices dropped from $40 to $24 per barrel in the past couple weeks. I hereby challenge your assertion. 90% of Iraq's oil is not even being tapped into. More supply over the next 10 years will come online from Iraq, thereby lowering prices even more due to more supply. Production prices for oil in Iraq are insanely low. Oil companies will suffer. Hollywood liberals will benefit because they will be able to afford more gas for the huge SUVs they hide in the garage while they are out protesting.
If Saddam is ousted, the biggest winners will be the Iraqis. They have an educated and willing middle class who is able to build/maintain a country. They are eons ahead of Afganistan. Iraq has the possibility to be a modern Arab country, such as Qatar, Kuwait, and a few others. Once Iraq goes this way, others will likely follow, including Iran.
First, I'm not saying I think they did the right thing, but hey, it did get them attention when most anti-war sentiments are being ignored. Besides, it's always the extremists who are going to get the media attention anyhow. You aren't going to see passive, boring protests on the news, nor will you hear the opinions of the millions who might support a war, if only they were given a decent reason for it.
Second, about the stats, that's exactly my point. It's meaningless, it can be easily manipulated. In the current climate, it just happens to be better business for the press to spin it in a pro-war fashion. The Bush administration has demonstrated that if you diss them, you're finished. Either they will just start ignoring you, banning you from press conferences or ignoring your questions, or some jackass will get on the air calling a journalist that asks real questions "The closest thing we have to an American terrorist". Can't remember the assholes name, I'm sure someone here can tell us.
Anyhow, believe nothing you hear, especially things coming from the side with the most to gain.
I love (note sarcasm) how in the very country these anti-war people seek to save, they would be killed, tortured, or raped for the very actions they do to try to save it.
Do they not see the irony?
The irony is tired and cliched, and a contains two strawmen to boot (the purpose of the war and the purpose of the 'anti-war people'). This sort of arguement dates at least to the war against Vietnam...
The fact that your country gives you a right to protest does not give it the right to invade countries that don't.
What's wrong with Fox news? It appears to be the only outlet providing both conservative and liberal opinions.
Outside of fox news, you either have the liberal TV people or conservative radio.
Engineering and the Ultimate
Dude.. 45 countries have supported us
I am a citizen of one of those countries. By polls 80% of our population is opposed to the war. It is not a coincidence that the supporting countries are relatively small and poor. Their governments have been easier to bribe and pressure. The only country in the worlds where the population is supporting the war is USA, and that's because of the propaganda in mainstream media (the same people who support the war, also believe that it was Saddam Hussein who organized 9/11, which is clearly a nonsense).
Even in UK, 70% of people are against the war.
Economically, its already helping. Looked at the stock exchange lately?
Wrong again. The stock market is just climbing out of the hole where it fell because of the uncertainty. Now that the end is near, we're just restoring the equilibrium.
Where were all these protestors when Clinton got us into Bosnia?
There's a huge difference between ending a war, and starting one, hence the the protests.
If we leave the US as a huge target that never retaliates, there is _nothing_ stopping every islamic crackpot in the world from taking a shot at us.
Iraq is a secular country, and Saddam Hussein is certainly not an islamic crackpot. He has done absolutely nothing to the US that would justify attacking his country and killing hundreds of thousands of people (the first Gulf war killed 100-200000 people and it was mostly in deserts, it is going to be mostly in cities this time).
When men used to be men
Understand that essentially NO ONE is as right-wing as the american Republican party. Up here in Canada, your Democrats appear pretty center (akin to our Conservatives) while your Republicans appear hard-core right (some would compare them to fascists, but I'm just trying to educate here, not stoke the flames).
This is simply because America is really the least socialist, most capitalist western nation out there. Chirac is OUR idea of right-wing (and France's), but certainly not yours.
Jeremy
How is it that people so often assume that brutally attacking and killing people is likely to make them less pissed off?
My site: Free Nature Pictures
All this war is doing is giving terrorists more fuel for their fight. They can say, "look, the Americans have attacked us without provocation and against international law, so how can you blame us for wanting to retaliate?"
Do you really think that a hardcore Iraqi soldier (who hasn't decided to surrender already) is going to feel much solidarity for a bunch of hippies, or even care what they think one way or another? Or that the protests could possibly do anything to weaken the "argument" raining down on Baghdad right now?
The logic of protest is to get your voice heard. Nobody thinks the US is going to stop the war. Some still feel compelled by conscience to express their opinion about it.
My site: Free Nature Pictures
Yes, I can see that. And what I'm talking about is, how does making war against an islamic nation make the muslims less likely to attack the US, exactly? The primary terrorist threat comes from extremists, not the mainstream of any particular country or government. The idea that violence acts as a deterrant to further violence is simply flawed. Violence begets violence, terror begets terror, war begets war. Fighting for peace is like fsking for chastity.
War increases the probability of terrorist attack from people pissed off about the war. That's what I'm saying. The message this sends to governments is not "don't engage in terrorist activity," but rather, "don't you dare defy us or attempt to oppose our will, or else."
My site: Free Nature Pictures
"Hollywood liberals".
Plonk.
Ah, the fat, sweaty smell of Limbaugh...