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Mainframe Operators Needed
blueforce writes "Computer World is reporting that there's a shortage of skilled mainframe workers on the horizon. Quote: "Getting IT professionals, especially young ones, interested in learning mainframe work isn't easy." No kidding. While I've never worked on a mainframe, I have worked on AS/400's. 3 words - Mind Numb ing. Perhaps it's time for a more long-term solution to the problem. Interesting nonetheless. Who'da thunk it - a shortage in IT. What's next, COBOL?"
The problem is lack of specialized talent. In neither undergraduate nor graduate school (graduated last year) was a single mainframe course offered. The "old timers" who work on mainframes here are their own special group-- very few people are brought in, and certainly it would be a good idea to change this, since mainframes are years ahead of PCs in terms of hardcore OS technology. If colleges didn't focus so strongly on learning VB and Office, maybe CS degrees would mean as much as they used to...
Wer mit Ungeheuern kämpft, mag zusehn, dass er nicht dabei zum Ungeheuer wird. --Nietzsche
I don't entirely understand why mainframe work should be much more mind-numbing than point-and-click or shell-hopping. Would somebody with AS/400 experience explain what makes administration of the machines completely non-automatable, and thus requiring massive amounts of repetitive input?
--Dan
1) Hire vets. People getting out of the service are a good source for these skills. That was where I got my training.
2) Pay more. Companies have to adjust.
This just happens to be interesting because it is unusual in this job market. It's nice to know I have some skills that might be in demand if my current job goes away.
"Give a woman two glasses of wine and some pad thai, and they'll agree to just about anything." the Sports Guy
We still run a couple of HP3000s...a 928 and a 918. Before that we had another model, I forget which one. In any case, there is 20+ years of custom in-house COBOL programming invested in those systems. Most of that code is still serving its purpose very well. We have started updating the apps and have done some web development with it, but if it works, why change it? The only reason we have even considered migration is because HP has finally pulled the plug on the 3000 line, not because it couldn't serve its purpose. And hey, who doesn't like a half-obscure OS (MPE/ix) running on a 48MHz machine supporting 200+ users?
Geek used to be a four letter word. Now it's a six-figure one.
The problem is that no one teaches mainframe operations in schools, you basically need to learn by being dropped into it - and not screwing up everything. Fewer and fewer businesses are willing to invest in promising new talent to learn these legacy systems, but their own mainframe gurus are retiring or dying off - so eventually this corporations will 'bleed out' skill-wise.
And no, the mainframe cannot be replaced by a client-server solution. I listened to this moron chant throughout school - mainframes are not dead. REALITY CHECK - there are just some applications where a mainframe makes more sense. Mainframes can handle enormous amounts of data without having to break it up for a cluster, or without being bogged down with I/O like most client-server type solutions. Mainframes are great when you need to handle databases with tons of information in it - and you need to consistantly dig through it. Most machines cannot handle it, and will buckle. Mainframes almost never buckle, unless you are testing new stuff on them (naughty newbie - that's what a test LPAR is for) or you do funky things to them.
Real MCSE's know that real main frames run Windows2000 Server!
Unix is just DOS with funny application names (ga-new what?)
Anyone remember that Woody Allen movie, "Take the Money and Run"?
This was funny in 1967 and is senseless today, because in 1967, nobody's aunt had a computer. And today, nobody's aunt has a AS/400 sitting around. So the only way to learn is on-the-job, which means there's that chick-an-egg problem of: you can have the job if you have experience, you can get experience if you have the job.With PCs today, you just spend an affordable amount of money, and you can start learning.
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That's only part of the issue. I didn't learn squat about sysadmin tasks in University, because the focus is on teaching you how to think about software development, not how to use a particular tool or platform -- that's what tech schools are for.
A far bigger issue, as was already pointed out, is the mind-numbing tedium of being a mainframe operator. Alas, the same applies to being an operator on any system, as your main job is to swap media for backups, stock the print servers, and act as remote fingers when support staff call in on a page.
Regardless of platform, the only operators I knew who were happy with the job were middle-aged people who were more concerned about job stability than job challenge/fullfillment. Many of them were highly skilled, knew more about the systems than the developers, and would have made good developers. They just didn't want the pressure and insecurity that comes outside the data center.
As to "learning VB and Office", it sounds more like a tech school than a university. I've never heard of VB or Office being considered part of the programming course on a university campus. I have seen it offered as a half-credit course to help out students who have no prior experience with basic office automation tools, but who need the basics in order to be able to prepare and submit their coursework.
Another issue with getting people to consider a career as an operator is that the job stability is a smokescreen. Who wants to take a job for lower pay, that has little or no challenge to it, requires dealing with pissed-off user managers, and is subject to termination whenever someone gets a brain-fart about "saving" by outsourcing?
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
Why do you consider it mindnumbing? I'm 27, and I've been working with AS/400s for about 4 years. They aren't anymore mindnumbing than running an *nix CLI, or point and clicking all day. On a side note, the AS/400 is quite the machine. I could sit and name all the great things it can do that are better and faster than any Intel system, but it'll still be labeled "mindnumbing" because it doesn't play solitaire.
I went to college for this?...
Things too reliable? Predictable? Functional? Secure? Just can't find anything to do?
Windowsize it!
Just ten lines of Windows code will have you scrambling for hours to try and figure out what in the heck has gone wrong!
Add twenty lines of Windows code and you've got a month worth of worries on your hands!
And for the truly daring: A mission-critical Windows application!
Kiss the wife and kids goodbye! You'll never eat/sleep/bathe in peace again!
Windowsize it!
(Not approved for those with heart conditions/risk of stroke/high blood pressure/pregnant)
When the Mac first came out, I spent about six months reading technical manuals for IBM's OS370. I wanted to actually work with mainframes, but the people that ran the shops acted like it was some holy grail or something, as though you had no chance of setting FOOT in a data center unless you knew a super-secret magic chant or something. I still think the big iron is fascinating, but I've never been quite motivated to resume my interest (the salaries don't really help, either).
As for C++ programmers - someone made a comment regarding competition among "qualified" c++ programmers. I'd argue that the ability to toss some code into a class so that it compiles with a C++ compiler does NOT a C++ programmer make. If you count only those who know both the language, and how to use it effectively, I'd guess that your competition goes way down.
When you compare MVS to UNIX to Linux, and do the math, MVS wins big. Billions of lines of mainframe investment are not going anywhere soon. Billions were spent on making legacy systems Y2k compliant, now that the investment has been made, companies are finding it difficult to call for a re-write.
IBM saw this coming a while back. The 390 mainframes were renamed Enterprise Server (and we all snickered). However, the enterprise server is now running Linux, Websphere, integration services, websites, ASPs, and the legacy systems with incredible stability.
It is difficult to find operators because in many mainframe shops the job consists of running print jobs and contacting support staff when alerts occur. It is no longer a career. It would improve if companies started treating it like a first step. Hire some college students or entry level employees and provide a career path to greater opportunity. Isn't that what we all want?
Actually, a local sporting goods chain has been advertising for programmers that are "experts" in Cobol, SQL Server, VB, and IIS to move a legacy system from mainframe to Windows. I taped a 10 foot pole to another 10 foot pole, but still wouldn't touch it.
Its a lack of opportunities. I for one have some IT experience, and have been passed up over and over for entry level mainframe IT jobs because they want someone who already has experience in it.
I know plenty of out of work IT people who'd be eager to learn mainframe IT if it meant a job, they just aren't willing to teach it.
You must work at the same place I do.
We're in the middle of migrating from an AS/400 office/custom library catalog system to MS Office + MS SQL on W2k.
I've been here five years, and I don't recall the AS/400 system ever going down. Terminal servers are down, Citrix servers are, Excahnge servers are down... three of four times a week.
Sure, I don't have to use Officevision any more, but still, I can work pretty fuckin fast with those old apps. I hope to god they keep payroll on them...
hang brain.
In my first job out of University, I was a programmer (not an operator) for the R&D division of a multinational that dealt with mainframes. At 22, not only was I a mainframe systems programmer, but most of the work I was doing wasn't on MVS (the IBM flagship mainfram OS), but VSE, the evil, hunchbacked midget brother of MVS.
Trust me: ugly. Nasty, nasty, nasty. As other people have pointed out, I didn't do any mainframe courses at University. What I did at this job was read a _lot_ of IBM manuals, and attend a bunch of IBM courses.
For those that know the territory, I even went on a JCL (Job Control Language) course.
Basically, for those people used to working and developing in the modern GUI and development tool environment - run in fear. The other people I worked with though pointed out that if you knew this stuff, you would always have a job. Something which this article seems to be higlighting.
I must point out that in hindsight it was very good experience. Being taught to read mainframe dumps, and having to deal with things every day on the bit and byte level was a great foundation for my continued career.
I also bailed from the company after being there for just over one year, wanting to get out of the mainfram environment. And trust me - being an operator is WAAAAAY less interesting than being a systems programmer.
If the system never goes down, how can upper management ever appreciate your valiant efforts at 3:00 am to restore the essential programs underpinning your whole corporations future? Again?
Windowsize it! Because you haven't suffered enough!
But, I can't get a job doing this. I can't find anywhere to provide training. I can't get a job, because everyone wants 3 years experience in everything under the sun.
Can someone tell me where I can get training and experience when no one is teaching mainframes and no one is hiring unless one has 2-3 years experience?
There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
- Run some java apps on it
... there is a full blown Java2 1.4 VM available (what better platform to run a Java VM on but one that implements the concept of VM at it's core) - Run Linux apps -- Suse, Redhat, & TurboLinux (I think) distros available to run in a logical partition
- Run Apache2 web servers
- Run AIX apps on it
This ain't your father's AS400btw: Did you know that when IBM changed the CPU on the AS400 from a 48bit CISC system to a 64bit RISC system (PPC based) there was almost zero application programming changes required
mm
As someone previously said, It's a different world out there. OS/390 is an amazing OS, we had 5 instances of it running at once on the mainframe (2 production and 3 development regions) and then I installed Linux too :-D
Initially I was given a measly 5% CPU for my Linux region....but that's more than enough for Linux to make a mark!
Coming back to the point, the reason for the different world can be summarized in two words - Batch Jobs . So the task of the operators will be to keep staring at the console to look out for requests to load up cartridges (yes, thats the primary backup medium) that a job needs to read stuff off or start some massive printing and computational jobs from time to time. I worked for a large conglomerate, employing more than 30,000 people, so every month the pay-check printing job on huge line printers took about 4 days to complete. Other task included checking DASD usage (mainframe harddrives) to check upcoming shortages , etc.
Even programming for it was fun, I was primarily in charge of the opensystems portion of it, including Domino Go Webserver, O-MVS (unix) and Linux. But I can understand why there is a shortage of manpower. The cool technology does not hit the mainframe world, so you won't get to work on wireless communications, kernel hacking, etc. I am now a Linux systems programmer and I dont wanna go back too, but it was an experience worth getting.
Arrgggh..i have been barfing too long...back to work!
There is no patch for stupidity
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Unless you're a system software programmer (device driver, BIOS, embedded, etc), in which case you get to play with much cooler hardware than the admins.
And the men who hold high places must be the ones who start
To mold a new reality... closer to the heart
Indeed. Just for fun, we have a test machine that sits outside our firewalls. It is HIGHLY amusing to look at the logs. Of course you can filter out the automated attacks, script kiddies, etc....but occasionally you get the cracker types attempting to figure out what the hell they've stumbled on. We run very weak passwords on it (this box is mostly just for fun, and we could care less if it did get rooted), and still most people can't figure out how to get a remote prompt since we use only VT-MGR protocol and not telnet. Makes for a few laughs anyway.
Geek used to be a four letter word. Now it's a six-figure one.
That program got my account cancelled! Well, OK, so I submitted 1000 jobs with 255 steps each specifying PGM=IEFBR14. But the real reason was because I used lower case Hollerith punch codes on the job names, and the console ops couldn't cancel the individual jobs because everything typed on the console was upper case.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
If companies are whining that there is a shortage of AS/400 (or other mainframe) operators out there, then they should blame the mainframe manufacturers for making their products inaccessible, not the young IT people for being uninterested. Believe me, I TRIED to learn about the AS/400, but just finding scraps of information is a chore in itself (aside from superficial marketing crap).
I have worked at a bank for two years now. Before I arrived, I had never even heard of the AS/400. On my first day my manager took me into the computer room and proudly pointed out what looked like a black dishwasher sitting in the middle of the room. "And this," he smirked, "is our AS/400!"
I could bore you with stories about how nobody taught me anything, how I had to figure everything out about the vaunted AS/400 just so I could do my fucking job (and subsequently got scolded for "going where I wasn't allowed") and so on, but I won't.
Instead I'll just say this: whenever I tried to ask my manager or co-workers for an overview of the AS/400, he could only say "oh, it's NOTHING like a PC, it's COMPLETELY different." Me: "okay, but how is it different?" Them: "Oh, it's just different, you wouldn't understand."
I have come to is that my manager doesn't know jack shit about his beloved AS/400. He knows how to "make it work," and even though he claims to have some sort of certification, IBM obviously just gave him scraps. If you can't explain a technology in 3 sentences, then you probably don't understand it at all.
But why does he know jack shit, despite working with an AS/400 for 10 years? It is because IBM has purposely kept him uneducated. Everything is hidden in subscription professional sites and bank-account busting certifications from IBM.
I have searched the web over and over again for information on AS/400 crap. All I can find are IBM's boring information libraries for the "iSeries," mysterious subscription sites for AS/400 "professionals" and this page. Try finding a book on AS/400 online or at your bookstore. They suck. If you want to wade through the IBM manuals online, be my guest. My suggestion is you do it just before bedtime.
Ok, MAYBE you could teach yourself to be an AS/400 expert by wading through said manuals...but everyone here who learned about PC administration by wading through a Microsoft manual - or, for that matter, an Intel manual - raise your hand (and we're talking actually black-and-white MANUALS here, folks, not online tutorials or knowledge base articles)...well...still waiting...Thought so.
My manager has told me that if you want to learn ANYTHING about AS/400, then you should forget about a career in anything else, because you will have to become an AS/400 expert. Who do you think told HIM that? Why, the current AS/400 experts who want to keep their salaries up and the their jobs secure! (natch)
So here's to the Cult of the AS/400. May you all fade away into well deserved obscurity.
If anyone's really interested in learning about modern mainframes, I run a general interest site about mainframes. You're very welcome to visit: http://www.sysprog.net .
.
And for anyone who complains that all mainframers are boring old greybeards (not me), try http://www.sysprog.net/quotes.html
To clear up some serious confusion, mainframes are the very large business systems IBM , Hitachi and Fujitsu make. IBM calls its mainframes the zSeries (z800 for Linux and z900 for z/OS). The AS400 is a midsize computer, not a mainframe. A mainframe is to a PC as a race car is to a bicycle. Anyone still need to ask why some of us love working on them?
Please don't be put off by people who think that mainframe programmers all work in COBOL on green screens in CAPITALS. That hasn't been true for decades. I program in C and Java and use XML and so on. The difference is that mainframes are much more complicated systems than workstations. Call it a challenge, if you like.
Celia Redmore
I would whole heartedly urge getting at least a bachelor's degree in anything technical. I finished a bachelor's in physics from a small liberal arts college and found that it was the best possible course I could have taken (I currently work as an Open Source programmer and will head into alternative energy power systems engineering next year). Though liberal arts colleges have less course offerings, they do have many great opportunities. In a small (less than 3000 students) institution, there are an incredible amount of hands-on learning opportunities in research based "pure science" departments. For instance, my senior physics thesis involved designing and building the mechanical and electrical systems, then programming the computer interface to run the He3 cryostat and associated electronics I and others used to do quantum dot research. This is the kind of learning experience (along with the rest of the social thing) that is really hard to get if you don't go to college (at least for a little while). If you are one of those people (like the Willie Norris hypersound guy from a few articles back) who is just destined for bigger things, then get to them. For the rest of us however college/university is definitely a good thing if you can swing it.
As for your questions:
1. How much will a graduate/undergraduate degree affect my eventual wages as a programmer?
I can't say from experience as I have chosen to work for peanuts doing open source development for a university, (the pay isn't great, but the quality of life is through the roof!), but it definitely will help at least a little.
2. If I got an electrical engineering degree instead of a computer science degree, would I be able to make more as an embedded technology developer? In the automotive industry?
Like someone said above, "if your in it for the money, you shouldn't be here". That said, an EE, applied physics, physics, or some other well-rounded science/technical degree that involves computer work as well as knowledge of physical systems will make you much more employable (if not better paid) than a degree in computer science.
3. Is college much better than highschool course-wise?
In my experience, incredibly so. Granted, I went to an absolutely shitty high school, but in college I was able to take courses in everything from data structures to optoelectronics to "radio, microwave and coherent transmission techniques" and add in some "Modern African History" on the side.
4. Will running various website such as this [frob.us], that [mathaddicts.org], and the other one [osnippets.org] help me with admissions? With scholarships?
Probably with admissions. It could show that you have a drive to apply yourself to something that you think is important, always a good thing with admissions people. If not, it doesn't hurt. As for scholarships, no clue.
5. Definitely would redo college. The career can wait. Actually the career is on at least semi-permenant hold until I get a bit of life under my belt.
6. Know of any good tech scholarships?
Nope, but I do have many friends that were able to attend my ridiculously-priced college for free because their families didn't make much money. Granted, the cutoff is crappily low (my parents paid more in tuition than their income the year my brother and I were both in school), but if you really are poor, there is need-based aid available.
"When ideology and theology couple, their offspring are not always bad but they are always blind." -- Bill Moyers
First, read this so you know my background.
I moved into computer operations management primarily to maintain control of my environment and earn a measly $1.00 more an hour to start. I had been under supervisors who made bad technical decisions in my judgement, and did not like the experience.
The job was hell on earth, and largely due to the nature of people who choose to do that job. This poster got it right, it's basically a haven for people who have the intelligence to do the job and the desire to hide out from a 'normal' job. We are not talking your team players here.
The 24x7 shifts mean job security, yeah, but also the constant wear and tear on nights and weekends meant anti-social behavior is reinforced amongst people who are self-selecting for it anyway.
The fact that I was one of them did not help as I wanted to be as lazy and non-team oriented as the rest of them but could not due to my position. I did not start out as a good leader type to begin with, and had to painfully learn the craft of training and stick and carrot with many ugly lessons learned the hard way.
One of the biggest problems we had was that we could not seriously threaten termination for anything but the most grevious of errors due to the lack of suitable replacements. The systems we run HAVE to run successfully 24x7, no exceptions period. So you cannot just plug in any dweeb with six months of VB/networking at the local community college. So training means standing over them to make sure the processes get done without failure, and takes overtime and care to make sure the mission critical stuff isn't destroyed.
Getting rational reasonable operators who were good and not insane was a difficult thing to accomplish. I literally had situations where bowling alley managers interviewed for me, and later I had to ask myself if I wouldn't have been better off hiring them instead of the jerk we got.
I am even now having to deal with the operator conundrum as a sysprog as some new guy screwed up our monthly database reorg apparently because he thinks he is a genius and understood his instructions without asking or calling.
The solution for our company re: replacement has been to outsource for new operators, try them out to see if they actually know what they are doing, and hire them if they work out.
There IS an operator advancement process at our company- select operators have made it into my systems area and others become Operations Analysts, doing similar work but more on an operationalized basis rather then systems. The Ops analysts are sharp sharp people and just as good as many of the sysprogs. So those posters who are concerned about ops being dead end should make sure there is a similar path before hiring on.
The whole experience was probably good for me as a human being as I am more likely to be sympathetic and understanding of both sides of the management and employee experience. But I am very very soured on ever BEING in ops management ever again and I would have to be very very hungry to ever consider it.
Most ex-ops people I work with feel the same way- it's kind of like helpdesking, it's a job and someone has to do it, but we aren't planning on doing it. And that is your opportunity to grab a job.
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