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Palm Memory Maximum Increased

Posted by CowboyNeal on from the more-to-remember dept.

Trillan writes "PalmSource has announced that it has developed a technology for increasing the maximum RAM on a Palm handheld from 16MB to 128MB. Hopefully new devices will come out soon to take advantage of it." This looks to me like Palm's plan for remaining competitive against handhelds like Sony's that can add more memory in via memory stick. As more and more multimedia apps are written for PalmOS, more storage space only makes sense.

21 of 161 comments (clear)

  1. Erm... by lingqi · · Score: 3, Interesting

    So, - what in the world does RAM size has to do with application storage? Last I checked applications / data / whatever are stored in ROM?

    And it's interesting that Palm would be able to handle that much RAM - I mean, I still know some full blown computers straddling around with 64M... I won't even talk about the time when 8M was a lot, or when some idiot thought 640k was enough for everyone, and before that when stuff were represeted by holes on paper, and before even that when wooden beads on a frame were used in asia.

    anyhoo... can't imagine anything that will take advantage of that much RAM (right now), though, it'd be interesting what comes of it if they tried - Palm don't have the processing power, but if it did, much more powerful software can be written for it.

    Otoh - DRAM (I am assuming they are using DRAM for the extra RAM)needs to be refreshed which means that even in standby / whatever, they still draw a non-insignificant amount of power. I am seriously hoping that RAMTRON will get the density up so we can have some MRAM action.

    (side note - SRAM draws more juice when operating but uses nearly none when in standby (only leakage current - which on modern cmos is equilavent to counting electrons) - I wonder how does manufactures of PDAs determine which ones to go with, if cost wasn't a issue (with cost an issue DRAM-or-SRAM is not even a question))

    Okay, end rant.

    --

    My life in the land of the rising sun.

    1. Re:Erm... by DiscoOnTheSide · · Score: 3, Informative

      Not sure if it's changed since I took a stab at programming for the Palm platform, but there's no RAM/ROM division like PocketPCs/PocketLinux PDAs. Programs are run straight from the storage memory, no RAM needed.

      --
      Viva La Revolucion! Buy a Mac!
    2. Re:Erm... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      On the Palm, apparently the really early models (like the Palm Professional I've had since 1997) actually used static RAM, but newer ones use dynamic RAM. On models that use AAA batteries, there is a circuit that steps up the voltage and a pretty powerful capacitor too, so that when you take out the batteries, your memory contents will stay around for quite some time. (An hour, last I tried it.) Apparently, because of the step-up circuit, the capacitor can be kept fully charged even when your (2 x AAA) battery voltage is waaaay down. So, the Palm devices make a valiant effort at keeping power going to the RAM.

      I think static RAM was a good choice initially, because the Palm's CPU is actually running only a very small amount of the time. Even when the display is on, the device is in a power-saving mode called "doze" mode until you press a button or something. After a few minutes of inactivity, it goes into a different mode called "sleep" mode, in which current draw goes down even more. So, really, the percentage of the time that the processor is running is really quite small.

  2. Re:Oops... by any chance by blancolioni · · Score: 4, Funny

    BTW, a Palmtop with 128MB RAM should be quite fast - like say, aLinux desktop with 1GB RAM..

    Yes, there should be a significant speed boost, just like when you paint a red stripe on your car.

  3. Gee, how innovative by EmagGeek · · Score: 5, Interesting

    ... to add 3 address bits to the Memory bus. wow, that must have been hard...

    When sales slump a little more, and their market research indicates people want more RAM, maybe they'll add another address bit.

    When are people going to realize that technological innovation ISN'T. Intellectual Property law has completely ended innovation. All we can do is expand, complicate, and repackage, the same damn IP that we invented 10 years ago because we're not allowed to innovate anymore. Even if we could, it wouldn't be worth it because we'd just get sued by some jackass that thinks he invented it first and the lawyers would bleed us dry..

  4. i'll invest when by tooninja · · Score: 4, Funny

    . Handheld Linux OS + Phone + GPS + Camera + Multimedia Capabilities + Wireless + a frickin' laser = a single device (Flip phone size) ... (okay maybe the laser could be an add on) ... but hopefully within 5 years....

    1. Re:i'll invest when by vano2001 · · Score: 3, Interesting
      You can have something similar to that with Sharp Zaurus 5500 / 5600.

      Check out http://www.zaurus.com

      Except the laser thing.

  5. It's for competitiveness against PocketPC by fer · · Score: 5, Informative
    This looks to me like Palm's plan for remaining competitive against handhelds like Sony's that can add more memory in via memory stick.


    Palmsource is responsible for the PalmOS which is used by both Sony *and* Palm devices. It has nothing to do with flash memory (which is used by both hardware brands).

    With this development, all Palmsource licensees including Sony and Palm can use up to 128MB internal memory to remain competitive with PocketPC devices.
  6. imagine... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    imagine a beo...aergq+t43,.234 [NO CARRIER]

  7. Palm already competing with Memory Stick by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative
    This looks to me like Palm's plan for remaining competitive against handhelds like Sony's that can add more memory in via memory stick.

    If that's their plan, then they're doing quite well, since 7 (out of 9) of Palm's current models and at least one of the older models all have an SD Card slot. Some links for more info:

    • The Palm product family -- look at the "Expansion Cards" row.
    • And a list of expansion cards that are available from Palm. (You can use generic SD Cards from other manufacturers too, of course.)

    However, as you might be aware from having used Flash in other circumstances, regular RAM is waaaaaaaay faster than Flash, so breaking the 16MB RAM barrier is a Good Thing(tm).

    On a completely different note, why doesn't Slashdot allow me to use HTML entites, so that I could write ™ and get a REAL trademark symbol? Is it that hard? It seems like actually extra work to filter them out!

  8. Re:well by dattaway · · Score: 4, Insightful

    more ram = more room for bloat

    Not to mention battery life going from weeks to hours.

    I have a HP-28S that will go for a year without a change of batteries. Real shame that handhelds need a power grid nearby these days.

  9. Close, but note quite. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    On the Palm, there are essentially four kinds of storage:

    1. There's the system ROM. The system boots from this. It stores the whole operating system. It's actually flash, but then what isn't these days? Except in rare circumstances, the Flash is never updated. The one exception is that you might once or twice during the life of the system do a major OS upgrade by rewriting the whole system ROM. The system ROM is CPU-addressable memory, meaning it can issue load instructions against it. (Or actually on 68k, they're "move" instructions...)
    2. The dynamically allocated memory that's available to applications. This resides in RAM, of course. I'm lumping the stack, the heap, global variables, etc. together here. Also directly CPU-addressable, otherwise how would you have variables in your program? :-)
    3. The "databases". The Palm doesn't have files, or actually it does, but it doesn't use them for much and they are an afterthought. Instead, everything is in a "database". This is taken so far that even applications are databases. Their records contain code and other resources they need to run (GUI objects, bitmaps, etc.). Also, the user data is all in databases. Your phone list is a database, your datebook is another, etc., etc. These databases are, for the most part, surprisingly stored on the very same RAM chips as the dynamic data that programs use. Interestingly, the Palm has hardware write protection for this data, though, so even though it runs the good old 68000 instruction set, which is too old to support memory protection in the modern sense, you're still protected if a program goes haywire. It can't accidentally write over your phone list. In order to modify a database, you must go through an API call. Also of interest is the fact that, because important data (applications, all your phone numbers, etc.) is stored in this portion of RAM, when you reboot the Palm, the RAM is not erased. Or at least not that part of it. (Unless you do a cold boot.) So, yes, strange as it may seem, all your important data is stored in plain old RAM for months or years on end.
    4. Some Palm models also have removeable flash media. These are much more like a traditional filesystem, with files, directory names, etc. In fact, they are a normal filesystem -- they're good old (!?) FAT. Palm doesn't really have great support for these devices, in that everything for years and years has all been designed to work with databases instead, so the idea of real files is a foreign concept, and most apps can't access them. Of course, there is a complete API for accessing filesystems on the flash if you want to build an application that calls it. Also, the OS does allow you to store read-only databases on the Flash, which means you can store applications there. (Remember, applications are stored in databases. In Palm terminology, a PRC is sort of just a special case of a PDB.)

    So, to sum things up, yes, programs are run straight from storage memory, but storage memory happens to be RAM, although the operating system goes to a lot of trouble to mentally keep that RAM separate from the "regular" RAM (used in the traditional way), which is important because all that RAM is really coming from the same pool.

    1. Re:Close, but note quite. by MythosTraecer · · Score: 3, Informative

      Also, the OS does allow you to store read-only databases on the Flash, which means you can store applications there.

      The OS allows you to store both read-only and read-write databases on the memory cards, just like on a disk drive. But in order to write to a file on a card, you have to use the VFS API rather than the standard PDB access routines. Several add-on programs allow apps that don't support VFS to get read-only access to databases on cards. These add-ons can't provide write access because it would be impossible without causing data corruption on the card. But this read-only limitation is the fault of the application for not supporting VFS. The OS will let you freely read and write to memory cards until your heart's content. You just have to use VFS.

      You are right in that apps can be stored on memory cards. But the Application Launcher you're using must support VFS (or you must use another add-on program); otherwise, you won't be able to see the app's icon in your App Launcher!

      --

      --Mythos
  10. Memorysticks aren't RAM. by wfberg · · Score: 4, Informative

    Sony Clie handhelds run the PalmOS. The memorysticks are used for storage, not RAM, as PalmOS can't use that much memory for RAM. Which is part of the reason why they're extending PalmOS.

    --
    SCO employee? Check out the bounty
  11. I want a PDA, not a laptop by mousse-man · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Different devices for different needs. I still have an old (or better: now antique) Palm IIIc for my PDA needs. It does everything perfectly. I can download mail, I can even browse the web in a limited way, I have my phone numbers and even a game or two, and some ebooks to read. I want that device to be usable when I'm away from the grid. For a whole day. To effectively work with a keyboard, type this article, do some scripting and java programming, I have a notebook with all possible gadgets and softwares that will fit on a 40 GB disk (with Linux, as we know, an "awful lot" (c) by mousse-man 2003). I can watch multimedia stuff on it, can use Mozilla and other memory hogs, and I have a second battery in the DVD-ROM bay when I'm away from the grid, giving me approx 4.5 hours of work time. That's why I keep my old Palm and haven't bought a Sharp Zaurus - it won't work more than 3 or four hours at a time without recharging. Just one advantage the Zaurus has is all that fancy free software. If somebody makes a Zaurus that lives on little power, a smaller footprint than the current model, I might be tempted to test it since I'm a bit of a Linux zealot... :) Getting a Palm to have more than 8 MB of RAM won't have any benefit for me as I don't even use 6 MB. And I use my palm as calendar, address book, and a for a few other applications and references.

  12. Probably used for Palm's new Tungsten C by abischof · · Score: 3, Interesting

    This is probably used for the new Tungsten C (to be released at the end of this month, so they say). In addition to integrated WiFi (w00t!) and a 400 MHz processor, it's also said to include at least 32 MB RAM.

    --

    Alex Bischoff
    HTML/CSS coder for hire

  13. POSIX/Linux is *NOT* the answer. by fmaxwell · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Both Palm and Microsoft love churning out these messed up, non-standard APIs because it ties programmers to them and creates a market niche. The messier the API, the better, as long as a company has a captive developer population.

    Palm's API is clean, intelligent, and well-designed for its intended purpose (a PDA). The tools to develop for it are readily available and it's a very good interface.

    From a purely technical point of view, both systems should be relegated to the dustbin of history and replaced with a decent POSIX-compatible kernel (Linux, QNX, whatever).

    This is the kind of Linux-on-everything idiocy that makes my head hurt. Linux is great for some things and complete crap for others. A POSIX-compatible kernel is completely inappropriate for a Palm-style handheld. Have you ever tried to write a GUI-based Othello program that's 15K long on Linux? How about a 47K full scientific calculator? And those are big programs compared to many PalmOS apps.

    It's that I-have-a-hammer-so-every-solution-involves-a-nail kind of thinking that has ruined many embedded systems. The PalmOS devices continue to be successful because they don't try to cram some variant of Unix or Windows in them and, instead, stick to an OS that is appropriate. As a result, the devices meet users' needs for speed, storage, and battery life. If you Linux pushers had your way, PalmOS handhelds would need faster CPUs, far more RAM, and would drain batteries so fast that Rayovac shares would jump up 50%.

    1. Re:POSIX/Linux is *NOT* the answer. by g4dget · · Score: 3, Interesting
      Palm's API is clean, intelligent, and well-designed for its intended purpose (a PDA).

      Palm's intended purpose these days is to compete in the consumer and enterprise markets. Even if you could make an argument that its pathetic excuse for APIs was "well designed" for the handful of PDA functions that Palm originally had, Palm OS 4/5 just is a no-go there because programmers aren't going to go back to what amounts to a 16 bit segmented architecture. Even Palm understands this, which is why they are rewriting things.

      A POSIX-compatible kernel is completely inappropriate for a Palm-style handheld. Have you ever tried to write a GUI-based Othello program that's 15K long on Linux? How about a 47K full scientific calculator?

      I used to do graphics programming on PDP-11s; those things had a 64k address space and ran somewhere in the single digit MHz range. So, yes, I have written GUI apps that, by necessity, used that little memory. Of course, why one needs to undergo that kind of self-flagellation on a 175MHz RISC processor with 16M of RAM is somewhat beyond me. I mean, are you planning on running 1000 simultaneous copies of Othello (fat chance that PalmOS wouldn't crash first anyway). And with all that "efficiency", why is PalmOS actually so damned slow? I mean, I could grep faster on a PDP-11 than the search function on my Palm.

      Incidentally, my first personal UNIX machine had a 20MHz processor, 4M of RAM, and ran X11 plus many command line tools we still get today.

      You see, the UNIX APIs were well-designed: they scale from 16 bit machines to 64 bit machines and let you take full advantage of the capabilities. If you give them a Gbyte of memory to play with, users can fill it with applications, images, and other stuff. If it needs to run in a few hundred kbytes of memory, it can do that, too. That is unlike incompetent attempts like DOS, Windows, or PalmOS which need rewriting every time the wind shifts.

      It's that I-have-a-hammer-so-every-solution-involves-a-nail kind of thinking that has ruined many embedded systems. If you Linux pushers had your way, PalmOS handhelds would need faster CPUs, far more RAM, and would drain batteries so fast that Rayovac shares would jump up 50%.

      If "us UNIX/POSIX pushers" had our way, handhelds would get by with a fraction of the power and resources that they are using, and they wouldn't require major OS and application rewrites every couple of years.

      The notion that something like the Tungsten T is a dainty little machine that is too delicate to UNIX/Linux is just ridiculous. I mean, were you born yesterday? The T|T has more CPU power and memory than UNIX workstations from the early 1990s.

      It's only people like you and the PalmOS developers who are completely ignorant of history and keep reinventing the wheel--badly.

  14. Announcement is Significant by Coppit · · Score: 5, Interesting
    This announcement that Palm OS 5.2.1 can handle more memory comes just before the new Palm Tungsten C is rumored to be released. The T|C is supposed to have 64MB of memory and run--you guessed it--OS 5.2.1.

    Here is the original leak, and here is one for sale on Ebay. The thing is supposed to retail for $499 on the 25th, but some dumbass is willing to pay an extra $300 to get it a couple days earlier. Anyway, Quill Corp, Amazon, and Staples all jumped the gun with listings for the product but have since removed them.

    I for one am going to snap one up on Wednesday. It's got a hi-res color display, 64MB of RAM, a thumbboard (which I like), a 400MHz Intel XScale chip, no exterior antenna, and best of all... 802.11b. (No, damn it, I don't want to pay a stupid monthly bill for your wireless service when I can get it just about anywhere I work away from the office.)

  15. Re:memstick, chemstick by ePhil_One · · Score: 3, Informative
    I have a 128M SD-card in my palm tungsten T, wich I run alot of application from. I also have some mp3's on it. So what is the point?

    The point is Slashdot editors are allowing ignorant trolls in story submissions to get through.

    The article is (I assume :^) about changes in the Palm OS that allow MAIN MEMORY to expand to 128MB for 16MB. The submitter, clearly having no clue, used his limited knowledge to say "Hey, those Sony gadgets can use proprietary 128MB memory sticks to expand. Ha! Dumb Palm!"; in a clear violation of "Better to hold ones tongue and be thought the fool than to flap ones jaws and remove all doubt". I gave a pass to the 512MB SD card upgrade thats been available since the m50x series of Palm's, shame my Tungsten T's (m550) 256MB SD card isn't as slow, proprietary, and small as the card the poster is bragging about.

    But back to the point. The original CPU in the Palm's had an addressing limitation of 8MB. Tricks were later played to allow it access 16MB. Later hacks were added to allow the PalmOS to access external storage, such as memory sticks and SD/MMC cards (Handspring also had their own format, and I believe was the innovator). I'm not sure what the limit on this external storage is, but clearly its > 512MB. But the 16MB is special, since this is where programs run, pointers are held, and anything you want to survive a card swapping live. Palm has recently introduced a new processor with OS5, the Dragonball CPU which is much faster. It emulates the old CPU faster than th eold CPU ran natively, though its not perfect (some stuff don't run), Native software for this CPU FLIES. It also isn't limited by the addressing problems of the old chip, though for the first generation the OS foisted the limitation on the system.

    So either of two things have happened. The OS has been updated to allow the new CPU based system to use their improved addressing capabilities (maintaining backwards compatibility, since they are still manufacturing old CPU systems), or the have increased the number of virtual 8MB pages from 2 to 16 (think Intel's PAE extensions)

    --
    You are in a maze of twisted little posts, all alike.
  16. Ignorance of Palm/PalmSource/Sony and Palm OS by MythosTraecer · · Score: 3, Informative

    This looks to me like Palm's plan for remaining competitive against handhelds like Sony's that can add more memory in via memory stick.

    This shows a complete ignorance of Palm, PalmSource, Sony, and Palm OS itself.

    PalmSource, the Palm, Inc. division responsible for Palm OS, announced this change to Palm OS because it's an important change. The previous 16MB limit was a holdover from older OS versions that ran on the 16/32-bit hybrid DragonBall (68328) processors. ARM processors have no such limitation. This change really should have been in Palm OS 5.0.

    Palm Solutions Group, the Palm, Inc. division responsible for making Palm-brand handhelds, has little control over PalmSource, and can only make suggestions about what goes into Palm OS. Sony and Palm SG have about the same amount of influence over Palm OS now. Soon Palm, Inc. will be split into 2 completely seperate companies, and this distinction will be more clear to outsiders.

    No version of Palm OS natively uses removable memory as RAM. Memory Sticks, SD, MMC, and CompactFlash cards are all accessed by using the VFS (Virtual File System) Manager API, which has been in PalmSource's Palm OS since version 4.0. VFS treats cards like removable drives, and files on cards must be accessed in a completely different way than databases in main memory. However, there are several programs that allow some directories on cards to be treated like RAM, allowing programs without VFS support some access to files on memory cards. Most of these only allow read-only access, though some work around this by copying the file from the memory card to RAM when it is accessed.

    (Although VFS was added to PalmSource's Palm OS in version 4.0, Sony actually came up with most of the original API for its own version 3.5S. And HandEra (then TRG) actually predated both Sony and PalmSource's VFS API with a completely different "FFS" API for the CompactFlash slot on its TRGpro.)

    --

    --Mythos