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DSL Hardware for Wiring Condos?
Condo-Netwerk asks: "I'm trying to prepare a proposal for my condo building to be our own DSL provider. With 160 units, we should be able to get a T1 and keep the price fairly low. But what's the up-front cost? Which hardware should we use? What do we need to know about Copper Mountain, Avidia, etc. to do our due diligence prior to selecting hardware? I'm also helping a friend spec cabling for a new 30-unit condo building he's putting up; he wants to pull cat5 and split a DSL line from the phone room to each unit. Caveats? Experiences? Is it better to use cat6 or fiber?"
Go wireless!
If you're going to be running Cat 5, why not use IT for the internet connection? It's much faster.
I also seriously doubt that one 1.5mbit T1 will be enough for 160 DSL connections. It's not even fast enough to support one DSL connection where I live; my 3.5mbit DSL connection, which sets me back about 35$ US per month, would be horribly slow if piped through a T1.
Now, I realize that most people don't have 3.5mbit. Everybody in eastern Canada (At least Quebec and Ontario) have access to 1mbit DSL (1.2mbit minus overhead). It'd only take two people to try to download at the same time to saturate your T1. What if 10 people tried to download? How much would YOU pay for a 150kbit internet connection?
The costs involved with the hardware (tut systems) was pretty substantial. The owner of the property whent ahead with a MUCH simpler plan (I recommended) of putting a simple 24-port switch in the basement of each dwelling (24 room units) and daisy-chaining the switches together with 100MB fiber. We had to run CAT5 to each unit, but the costs of that (less than $100/drop) were cheaper than a TUT Systems client device (around $165) for each unit. In the end, we had one switch plugged into an upstream carrier. Turning on or off the units' internet access was as easy as telnetting to the switch and shutting down the port.
The 100MB was MORE than enough for the 1.5MB internet pipe, and as an added bonus the dwellings could game with each other on a true 100MB LAN!
LOAD "SIG",8,1
LOADING...
READY.
RUN
well if those condo's are all on the same grid you can use powerline technology to connect all of em up to 14mbps... thats all you would need for everyone to share a T1...
Here's the link
Point #9 - prevention of viruses and prevention of Microsoft Messanger pop-up spam.
Point #10: No, I'm not saying they have to run a virus scanner. I am saying that if they are infected, and if they refuse to correct the problem, you pull their connection.
Point #4: Physical ports - in other words, if a unit isn't signed up for access the port is dead.
Final point: I was making my points in a brief, straightforward fashion, so as to keep my message short and easily understood. OF COURSE when you present these points to the users, you tell them what's what and why it is in their own best interests to go along.
www.eFax.com are spammers
Run cat5 if possible. Before you do that, I assume the condos have cat3 for phone? If so, how are they wired? It could be possible to use the existing cable to run on a 10 meg backbone, dirt cheap.
:
.11b wifi points for quick setup, rollouts to early adopters, and as backup gear
You also need to think of other possible options.
A big one, Voice over IP. With a 100 meg backbone in place, you could replace all the traditional phone service as well as providing internet.
(some legal issues here to look at though).
I'd implement it as follows
1. Do a SURVEY of interested tenants. Include VOIP as an option.
2. check Cat3 option, use it if possible.
3. Get some
when something fails... (it would really depend on how many IDF's you are going to place)
4. Plan your IDF locations carefully. Remember environmental and power factors.
5. Use the WIFI AP's to go from IDF to MDF on a temporary basis until you can rollout a fiber backbone.
6. Monitor and then put Rate-limiting into effect for the people who abuse the service, i.e. mp3's and warez out to the outside world.
7. Make clear service terms so the users know what to expect and what not to do.
8. Someone will have to monitor/troubleshoot this service. If you don't have someone, an option would be contract out with a Local ISP, or
perhaps a local computer consultant.
Finally, for those not interested in paying a monthly fee, offer LAN access for free, (to get them hooked as it were)
Without knowing more details the above is all I can give you. Hope it works out!
Service guarantees Citizenship! Questions Guarantee GITMO.... Amerika Uber Alles!
The consulting firm I worked for did similar installs for a large real estate company. Here's what we did:
1) Get a DS3 in a central building.
2) Install a linux based traffic shaping and mrtg box.
3) Split upload bandwidth evenly among tenants so nobody clogs up the pipe with porn servers.
4) Prioritize http and pop3 download traffic
5) Run fiber from the main building to each building in the complex.
6) Run the fiber into a fiber module in a switch in a closet in each building. From there, run cat5 to every apartment in that building.
7) Use DHCP to hand out a live class c.
8) Label all the wires and unplug people from the switch in their building if they don't subscribe.(Our setup was part of rent, so we didn't have to deal with this.)
9) Use MRTG to see who's using tons of upload and sniff their port. If they're doing anything horrible, have a talk with them. (You should make a comprehensive TOS agreement so you can disconnect spammers, kiddie porn servers, etc.)
10) Prioritize and uncap all bandwidth to your apartment, and enjoy.
At my school, we use a DHCP/Static IP combination. When you register with a network, your computer is assigned a permanent TCP/IP address that stays with your MAC address/Account (Which are linked on a database somewhere). Then, DHCP is used to configure your machine wherever you happen to be at. You get the ease of DHCP with the routability of a static IP. If the DHCP server ever messes up for some reason, you can simply put in your static IP and run with it. I'm not sure the hardware/software solution that's required to implement this, but on a campus of 5,000+ people, it surely cuts down on tech support calls.
Why are you going DSL? This doesn't make sense to me. Rathe than DSL you should be looking at getting a T3 (forget a T1 it is puny) and then split that bandwidth among folks.
Here is what I would do: I would get the T3 and drop it into your switch room. I would then have a primary switch with 1000 Base-T. I would then divide the complex into zones such that a single switch can service all of the units in that zone. I would then run connections to each and every unit from the zone switch.
Of course, you want management in the switches, so that you can control how much bandwidth folks have. This would allow you to charge different rates based on the bandwidth allowance. For example, you could have a basic level of service built into the homeowner association dues, but let folk with a bigger appettite purchase more and more bandwidth. You will also want a firewall (I would look at the Netscreen) at your head-end to protect the whole thing.
Of course, this assumes that you are able to run lines into folks houses - it might not be as expensive as you think. But if that is a big cost, replace the switches with wireless base stations and it looks about the same. In fact, going wireless would have a lot of advantages and you might want to consider it. Of course, build it secure.
Okay, now I might have to get a several hubs. Lets assume I got HP Pro-Curve 80 port capable switch and filled them all the way to the gills, I'd need 3 for 200 drops, and they'd cost no more then $8K fully loaded if I remember correctly. Again that's MSRP, not a price I'd use if I did this for a living. I'd need probably another $3K in hardware (screws, face plates, Communication racks, and what not). Total cost for install, for a completely network that is ready to rock and roll:
$6K (wires female ends) + $1K (tools) + $5K (spectrometer) + $8K (switches) + $3K (misc parts) =
$23K of which, $6K are one time costs to get into the business. So for a stock install, the total cost is $17K + Plus 2man weeks. Assuming they couldn't negocaite a decent price. It'd take me 2 weeks to do all the work personally, and I'm not very speedy at it. I'd bid it at no more then $30K-$35K if I was doing it personally. In two weeks, that's roughly $13-$18K in my pocket. Not great for a contractor, but nothing to cry about either. What'd they do that I didn't price out, where'd I miss the price too badly. I intentionally over-estimated everything on price. I could do the job for parts in a lot less then $6K is my guess. Nobody runs that many 300 foot runs. If I'd gotten cheaper female jacks in the cabling closet, it's have been better. Oh, and my prices are about 3-4 years old. I believe everything is cheaper now.
Heck, I'll bet I could run fiber to 200 rooms, and put copper to fiber transceivers in on both ends, or fiber on one end, and used fiber capable hubs they quoted, and still make a decent profit. The transceivers might be a little price, last time I read about it, I thought they ran, $45 a piece, but still 45 * 200 = $9K. So $80K is pretty expensive, assuming there really was conduit installed.
Kirby
>In any case, welcome to the Real World, where 95% of all systems will be Windows.
Exactly. I couldn't imagine how nasty the AT&T/Comcast network would be with ports 137-139 open for sniffing and cracking, especially now that XP defaults to a sharing folder. The determined will at least learn how to setup ftp, apache, IIS, etc.
As for the patch/virus server. More power to them. Every ISP should have a link to some free AV (AVG comes to mind) and windowsupdate.com. Toss in a link to Ad Aware for good measure. Make this page their starting page on IE on install.
Acting like your customers know what they are doing is probably the best way to destroy this little project or pretty much *any* project.
Also you can meet people half-way, no need to be a nazi admin. If someone wants their netbios ports open and they ask nicely then do it (assuming your equipment allows it). Only those in the know would probably ask and you could nicely ask them to make sure they have a strong password.
This is probably late and no one will read it.
I worked for a company that wired commercial and residential buildings in NYC. This is what I learned there:
RUNNING CABLE:
Contract the running of the cable to a good company.
If you are running new cable the cost of making the drops is way more than the cost of the cable itself. This means there is little difference between running CAT5,or CAT3 the adavantage of using DSL is that you can use existing phone wire and so avoid the cost of running new wire.
If you are running new wire go with Ethernet over CAT5 (5e,6 whatever the best you can get) Think about possibly running fiber. Again, the cost of the fiber itself isn't that much.
Fiber is a little less flexible and takes more skill to run and splice than CAT5 but over long distances you may not have a choice. Also media converters are costly. You could run the fiber alongside the CAT5 and not put any equipment on it at the ends. The cost will be less than deciding to run new fiber 5 years from now.
EQUIPMENT CLOSET
Try to keep your switches(other equipment) in one place, don't daisy chain them. You only will have to provide power, security and cooling to one location. Having switches (or DSLAMS) all over the place is not a good idea. You need to get access to the various places for maintenance etc. Costs go up too when you spread out: you might need UPS and Cooling for each location. If you don't then yo have to run to different places (and get access to different places) to fix them.
T1 LINES:
Depending on usage you may be able to get away with 1 T1. If I lived there I would like 2 or 4 or 8 sure, you can never have enough bandwidth but 1 might be enough. See how much they cost.
If you can afford it do get at least 2 though for redundancy. If you are unlucky enough to get a crappy set of lines from the phone company (this is probably more common on antique NYC Verizon lines) that T1 may be up and down for weeks or months and the phone company will take hours or days to fix it. Sure they will give you refunds off your bill or whatever the law says they have to do, but meanwhile 160 families are screaming for their Internet. If you have 2 T1's they'll notice things have gotten slower but they won't complain as much.
WIRELESS
Wireless is not as easy as people think it is. If you have clean lines of sight, are fairly isolated from other Wireless equipment or other sources of interference, and have buildings mostly made of wood, you might be OK. I wouldn't know. I was setting up wireless equipment in downtown Manhattan and Brooklyn and the Spectrum was lit up like a christmas tree. There's interference all over the place and the steel and concrete of the buildings blocked and bounced signals left and right. Someone with good testing equipment and lots of experience could do a better job than me. I was an amateur at wireles but I guess you are too.
Wireless is not magic. You just don't plug in an AP and everyone within 5 miles has 100Mb access. Maybe in the Suburbs conditions are better.
Wireless also has security problems unless you do it right. If I had a choice I'd do Ethernet over CAT5 or better.
That's it. Document everything and post your experiences. Good luck
Have you thought about providing television and internet over coaxial cable? Cisco makes some nice cable gear here. As far as content, you can set up some c-band satellite dishes and distribute content via the same wire and get multiple revenues over one network....and it's capable of faster speeds than non-shielded/twisted copper.
-ted
Just do this - a 24 or 32port ethernet switch, then you run cat5 out to "groups" of say 7 units which have a el-cheapo 8 port switch which provides 1 port for each of thoes 7 units. This way hardware costs are much lower, much less cable is used and performance is still fine.
Then as someone else sugguested a linux/bsd box with squid & traffic shaping. PLus an archive, smtp & mail server. Then connect the box to a T1 or 2x DSL lines - whatever has good bandwith and is fairly cheap. The end result should be an internet thats much better than dialup and probably cheaper. If anyone in the condo's dosent like it then they can pay for their own direct DSL line or whatever.