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DSL Hardware for Wiring Condos?
Condo-Netwerk asks: "I'm trying to prepare a proposal for my condo building to be our own DSL provider. With 160 units, we should be able to get a T1 and keep the price fairly low. But what's the up-front cost? Which hardware should we use? What do we need to know about Copper Mountain, Avidia, etc. to do our due diligence prior to selecting hardware? I'm also helping a friend spec cabling for a new 30-unit condo building he's putting up; he wants to pull cat5 and split a DSL line from the phone room to each unit. Caveats? Experiences? Is it better to use cat6 or fiber?"
If you can wire a T1 to you, why not just share that out?
BTW - What's up with the lack of the ability for logged in people to post AC??
Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
I'm not sure why you would want to use DSL specifically?
If you are already going to be running cable through the complex, why not just build a 100bT network?
Actually, at the camp I work at, they're building a big new building and wiring it all for internet access. My first response would be go wireless, but since that isn 't always feasible, I'd just say go the simple and tried and true route w/ cat 5. I mean...come on, can you go wrong with cat5?
The anti-salmon
Seriously. Wireless or wired ethernet... why add in the complexity of the DSL hardware?
...but since you're able to run wire - go with 100Mbps ethernet to each unit... and if you have to control access do it with a patch panel... ;)
Unless you absolutely need to use the existing copper or something - in which case a DSL solution would work nicely...
BlackNova Traders
Seriously - that's the first thing that came to mind.
If only 25% of people in your complex want the service, depending on which provider you're getting with, installation and continued service could be a shaky proposition.
Sig master! Sig master! Sig... faster?!
Depending on the likely residents, I'd be a bit worried about sharing a T1 (1.5 Mbps) between 160 units. Even if you figure that at peak only 10% of the units are doing bandwidth-hungry operations (media streaming, large file downloads), that still leaves only around 100 kbps per unit, which is pretty bad. If 20% try for 'heavy' access at once, they'd be better off using dialup. In other words, 30 teenage kids or similarly high-bandwidth users could crater your entire scheme.
When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a skull.
DSL was invented to provide a solution to a single specific problem (lack of quantity and quality of copper for long distance runs from the CO to the home). DSL makes some tradeoffs, including very expensive hardware, in most cases low upstream, and in many cases interference in the audio portion of the line that has to be filtered at each extension. If you're wiring an apartment or even a small neighborhood, why not consider pulling a second cat5/6 and providing regular 100mbit ethernet? Your cost dissolves down to a managed switch (and that can be eliminated if you're willing to manually plug/unplug ports from the switch), and the customer end becomes whatever cheap ethernet card they'd have to have anyway to plug the DSL modem in. For the fortune you save in DSLAMs and other expensive telco grade hardware you could probably buy everyone who posts a comment in this article a pizza.
-Dan
For new construction, run utp, fiber, and coax to each unit. This will reduce and future telco and catv headaches. Get the wiring done by qualified installers. Cat5 is not a type of cable, it is a standard, and few people know how to follow the standard. With 160 units you are going to need a lot bigger pipe than a T1. Also forget DSL, it's silly for on-premises connections. Just hook everyone up to the same 100 (or 1000) mbit ethernet segment.
I would have agreed with this comment until a few weeks ago until I found out.
- It is probably cheaper to go wired when you are in an apartment block or building a new housing development.
- Wireless sucks when you have a lot of people on it. (Cebit this year was a mess).
[Please type your sig here.]
Do the maths.
1.5 mbs / 512kbs = 3
1.5 mbs/ 386kbs = 4
1.5 mbs/ 256kbs = 6 users.
And you wan't 160? Better get a T3 instead. more expensive, but 1500/160 is worse than a modem!
--
Go calculate something
As for what I would do, don't go DSL unless you have to. DSL is only needed if you are really going over the limit of Ethernet and you want the rate limitiing built into most DSL boxes. It ain't like slapping in a Cisco router or your linux router in there.
The sizing should be in the 20 to 40 users per T1 and then you have to do load balancing between them - more fun and games.
And for your friend who is cabling his building project, he should put both CAT5+/6 and fiber. Only expect to use the copper for now but at only 50 bucks a unit to rough it in its worth it when you really want to do it.
For the life of me I can't figure out how 9 prevents spamming.
I'm a little confused by 10 too. Are you suggesting that he should disconnect anybody not running a virus scanner? Isn't this a little harsh for people running Linux/BSD/Amiga/etc...? IMHO, virus scanners are less important than Firewalls these days. You can avoid viruses with a little common sense, but you cannot avoid unknown remote exploits in your OS.
Also, with 4 are you talking about the physical ports, or TCP/UDP ports?
One final note. When you write up the rules for your tenants, I'd try to avoid the tone this guy has. While most of his suggestions are quite sane, the tone is very authoritarian, which will turn off some people. People will think you're some BOFH type and might start looking elsewhere for someplace with friendlier service. But I'm sure you know all of this already.
I read the internet for the articles.
Nothing, except to vote in favor of it.
Best way would be wireless for the extra advantages it gives to users to work anywhere in their condos without the hassle of cables and plugs proximity.
But, if you don't like it, go Ethernet you just need a router, a patch-panel and CAT5 cabling. No splitters, no DSL modems. However, you need to cable all the building.
Achille Talon
Hop!
Why use DSL? Why not use ethernet? That way people within the building get 100mbit/sec connections to each other. Switches are dirt cheap these days (especialy compared to dslams) and if your building has good ducts it shouldnt be too hard pulling the cables.
Wiring is the kind of thing best left to people who deal with it every day. I'd get a cabling company to give you a quote on running CAT5 to every unit and instaling a patch panel in some closet. They'll have the right tools to pull the cable, will be able to test it and will be responsible for fixing if anything isn't working.
I really wouldn't recommend pulling the cable yourself unless you really know what you're doing. BTW, depending on where it's pulled, it might need to be plenum or riser rated, and there may additional fire/code regulations for your area. You may need a license for cabling - but the cabling people would know all that.
grisha.org
Depending on the layout of the units, cable length may or may not be an issue. With 10/100 Ethernet, the max cable length is around 100m. I seem to remember that restricting the speed to 10 Mbit triples the max cable length, but that bit of data is suspect.
Most commercial buildings have a wiring closet on each floor that houses switches for that floor. The switches from each floor are connected to a central (REALLY FAST) switch that typically has all the routing rules on it. Routers for Internet and other network connections are also connected in here, giving everyone on the whole network access (per permissions) to "the world."
If your condos are distributed widely, I'd keep considering DSL but try and figure out a way to go with Ethernet. I'd avoid wireless for the time being, but consider other technologies like IP over power lines.
There are other posts below that detail other considerations to be made when providing your own network service, such as developing a TOS and all that's encumbered there.
The Spoon
Updated 6/28/2011
What's your Outage / backup strategy?
:)
You could run the entire block off a low-end Cisco router, but are you budgeting for a Cisco service contract and / or a 'hot spare' router?
How about line monitoring and alerts? Backups / service contracts for your switches? Environmental systems to keep your equipment closet nice and frosty? Factored in the electrical costs of that to your business plan?
Who's going to support the system? What do you do if a switch craps out at 3am? Running a community ISP can be fun, but it's *less* fun if you've not thought of these things before you start.
The only problem might be that it was just a large network - anyone could see all the other computers on the network, and access shared folders (like newer versions of Windows set up by default).
He'll have the same problem with DSL.
A lot of good posts about the hardware and connection, but don't forget your EULA. Some things to consider:
:-)
1) Have a good privacy policy
You may need to fall back on it if the authorities (or the RIAA) come knocking for your logs. If they badger you into turning them over without a court order, you could be in one of those stories about the criminals sueing because they got caught.
2) Look at the big ISP's agreements for ideas
You may see something you hadn't thought of.
3) Lawyers are much more cost effective when used to prevent you from being sue, rather than defend you after the fact. Think about having one draft or review your agreement.
Not trying to scare you, just make sure you're covered if the guy on the third floor turns out to be a pedophile, terrorist, or (gasp) file trader.
666-607: 6th floor apartment of the beast
Obviously the technofreaks out there don't have a clue about cost or project management. You need to run DSL or HPNA to each condo for management and liability reduction (yeah, lets run ethernet so we can all sniff what our neighbors are surfing). With DSL (or we've had great luck with existing infrastructure running HPNA) you get complete control over who gets what type of bandwidth. The need to get a DSL or HPNA end-device will keep most of the moochers off your network. Let the condo owner decide how much bandwidth they want to pay for. As to one T1 line not being enough for 160 condo's, I'd put one in and see what your subscriber base is, you can always add another and split your user base by IP (another great reason to use a mini-DSLAM or HPNA Switch for distribution). Most companies run around 100-150 desktops on a single T1, so clamp streaming media and FTP to a reasonable level and most people will be happy. Ignore the Slashdot regulars (cat 6, fiber, WiFi - get real), they live in their own (mostly imaginary) world.
Clearly you have not thought about the implications of such a proposition.
First, you need a cable drop for every access point that you establish. This reduces the cost per unit, but doesn't really eliminate the problem.
Second, each access point has a limited range some people will get a better signal than others. Realistically with a 54Mb access point you'll be able to support ~ 12 Users @ 200K/s the max of a T-1 or 1.5 Mbit DSL. The Pipe to the condos should provide at least this level of service at a price below market value for this project to even be justified. Also, the number of access points could be few or many depending on the building types. What this translates into is a lot of up front testing before a project plan is created for doing the cable pulls.
Thrid, wireless on desktops isn't really a good deal unless you have a Mac. PC's have pretty whack PCI Wireless cards and the technology is much more cumbersome from an enduser and administrative point of view. I.E. a lot more can go wrong between the desktop and the AP.
Fourth, security. It can be almost as secure as a wired network but the effort to accomplish this is much higher. Time = Money.
All in all wireless is the last option the person should choose. In a situation such as this - it is a last resort for people who can't do a LAN the way it should be done.
How do you think that DSL line costs $30/month for 128/128? The answer is they are oversubscribed by several times (typically ~5x for broadband, about 12x for dialup). No one does 1:1 badwidth, you could never make money on it and most of the time you would have huge amount of bandwidth sitting idle.
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
Best way would be wireless for the extra advantages it gives to users to work anywhere in their condos without the hassle of cables and plugs proximity.
With the whole Condo on the same WiFi network, you're likely to have bandwidth and security issues. Personally, I would recommend going with the ehternet approach all going into a shared T-1.
If people want Wireless connectivity, that's fine! Let them provide it themselves by suggesting they run out and buy a Linksys (or somesuch) at their local BestBuy or Fry's. Or perhaps, hook up a few pringles cans and provide it as an option in addition to the wired network. But having WiFi as the only solution would likely be more trouble than it's worth (IMO). Of the two options I present here, I'd prefer the former.
Quod scripsi, scripsi.
- The only problem might be that it was just a large network - anyone could see all the other computers on the network, and access shared folders (like newer versions of Windows set up by default).
Not necessarily. Can you "browse" all the computers connected to your DSL line? Or dialup?He'll have the same problem with DSL.
This is an implementation issue. It has very little to do with the connecting technology.
Well, who says you need the fiber running at 10Gb? Just use media converters. Fiber in, 10/100 ethernet out. If anything, fiber help future-proof things. If at some point 10 years from now they can get an OC12 to the complex, they can use it without a massive cost in upgrades. At this point in time, a bunch of media converters is a lot less expensive than a backbone switch that can handle 10 or so fiber ports (not knowing much about the layout of the complex, I'm assuming it is somewhat spread out.)
Frankly, the biggest cost is going to be cabling the individual units. How many drops to each unit? One in each bedroom and living room? Even if it's just one, it can cost hundreds of dollars per unit just for the labor of installing the cable.
I guess this is the reason for looking at cablemodem head ends (about 12K for a small one) or DSLAMS (no idea how much - assuming they are pretty pricey.) You can use existing wiring.