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IDSA Requests VIC 20 Cartridge Roms Takedown
An anonymous reader writes "The VIC20 cartridge dump archive has been taken down by FUNET following a request by the IDSA (Interactive Digital Software Association). More info from comp.sys.cbm."
Of course, VIC 20 users are now going to have to buy their cartridges in stores, and by "stores", I mean garage sales, flea markets, and swap meets.
Remember, they are still covered under copyright. For the next century at least, unless Disney extends the mouse again. There's no such thing as abandonware. Which is why Disney can put their movies into "the vault" for long periods of time, only to open it again for the next generation.
I can't say that I don't give a fuck. I've just run out of fuck to give.
No, seriously, mod them up as +1 insightful. Stupid though it may be, it is covered under copyright, and whoever holds that circle-C is the one who declares how it gets used.
This sig no verb.
From the site... "Like I wrote, it looked like an automated form letter sent with a fake
name, and we haven't received any further response."
Fantastic! Now we have form letter Cease and Desist spam to deal with too.
Does anybody in the IDSA truly believe that software archives for a 20 year old computer that hasn't been sold in over 15 years are really a threat to civilization? As if any of their members are planning to reissue this stuff. There is no market for it.
You might want to warn people before you post links like that, ya jackass.
If you could be anything you want, I'll bet you'd be disappointed.
Why are they going after enthusiasts that are keeping an obsolete platform alive? I can understand it if you could actually buy the games at a store, but this seems silly. They should do what more reputable companies do when their products become obsolete: support those who keep the flame alive. Instead of shutting people down, a much more nobel move would be to release the IP to public domain.
Security is inversely proportional to the commitment of one desiring to circumvent it.
I was just about done downloading these to save to 5.25" floppies! My Vic had been on for days doing this, poor little 300 baud modem, and I'd been praying that my wife wouldn't pick up the phone and cause it to hang up. Now they're gone!
;^)
Can someone please put them up on a BBS so I can try grabbing them again?
Thanks!
Curmudgeon Gamer: Not happy
What is the IDSA?
Formed in April 1994, the Interactive Digital Software Association (IDSA) is the U.S. trade association exclusively dedicated to serving the business and public affairs needs of companies that publish video and computer games for video game consoles (such as Nintendo 64, Sega Saturn, and PlayStation), personal computers, and the Internet. Our members collectively account for more than 90 percent of the $5.5 billion generated by the entertainment software industry in the U.S. in 1998, and billions more in export sales of U.S.-made entertainment software. The IDSA offers services to entertainment software publishers including a global anti-piracy program, government relations, business and consumer research, and First Amendment and intellectual property prote ction efforts.
What is the scope of the IDSA Anti-Piracy program?
The IDSA Anti-Piracy Program is designed to combat entertainment software piracy both in the U.S. and around the world. Worldwide piracy is estimated to have cost the U.S. entertainment software industry $3.2 billion in 1998.
IDSA anti-piracy efforts include: direct investigation and enforcement actions domestically, internationally and in the on-line environment, working closely with government agencies such as United States Trade Representative, the United States Customs Ser vice, the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), and foreign government officials and training and educating customs agents & law enforcement officers in the United States and around the world.
The IDSA is authorized by its members, who own the copyrights and trademarks for their hardware and software, to act on their behalf against violations of their copyrights and trademarks. This includes taking action against unauthorized ROMs, unauthorized hardware and software emulators, and pirated software.
Does the IDSA have any affiliation with the U.S. government?
The IDSA is an independent trade association that is funded by dues and revenue from other association functions. The IDSA is not affiliated with the U.S. government, or any other government, in any way, shape or form.
Isn't it legal to copy video & computer games as a backup as long as you own a legitimate copy?
U.S. Copyright laws permit making a "backup" copy of computer programs for archival purposes. However, the right to make backup copies of computer programs for archival purposes, as embodied in 17 U.S.C. Section 117(2), does not in any way authorize the owner of a copy of a video or computer game to post or download a copy of that game to or from the Internet. Section 117(2) only gives the owner of the copy a right to make an archival copy of the actual copy that he/she legally possesses, not to make a copy of the ROM that someone else legally possesses, nor to post an archival copy of his/her original copy for distribution. Also, there is not an unfettered right to sell "backup" copies. In fact, Section 117 is quite explicit in stating that any archival copy prepared under Section 117(2) can only be transferred to another person if, and only if: A) The original copy is also transferred, and only with the authorization of the copyright owner, and B) The transfer is part of the sale of all rights in the program.
Isn't it OK to copy games that are no longer distributed in the stores or commercially exploited?
No, the current availability of a game in stores is irrelevant to its copyright status. Unlike trademarks, copyrights are not considered abandoned if they are no longer enforced. Copyrights do not enter the public domain just because they are no longer commercially exploited or widely available. Therefore, the copyrights of games are valid even if the games are not found on store shelves, and copying or distributing those games is a copyright infringement.
Haven't the copyrights for old games (like Atari & Commodore) expired?
U.S. copyright laws state that copyrights owned by corporations are valid for 75 years from the date of firs
Find out WHO owns the rights and ask THEM about it. If you can cut a deal behind the IDSAs back, you can tell them to sit on a mid-digit and rotate...
The GEEK shall inherit the earth...
Is that "Fuck You Network?"
We all know that the copyright system needs a bit of an overhaul in the face of the technological changes of this and the previous century.
We all know that it is in the most profitable interests of large content holders/providers to fight these changes.
Whining will help, but not much.
If you want the Vic20 cartridges, buy the rights from the copyright holder and release them.
If you want to win the right to all the old cartridges and games and the technology that has blended into our cultural heritage in decades past, but is no longer profitable to package for consumers, support the EFF and change the law. This is not simply how honorable people fight these battles, it is how we win them in such a way that our children can fight new battles with these safely behind.
I mean, come on! This stuff is old, outdated, and simply not used anymore. It's not going to hurt any company's profits, because you can't even buy it in stores anymore! If it was new, then yeah, I could understand, but this is a waste of time for the IDSA.
I recall some ROM site (TI99/4A site perhaps?) where the owner got explicit permission from the copyright holders to post their ROMS, but he still got a letter from these goons.
Short of the discovery process of a lawsuit, is there any way to force the hand of these organizations to prove they are in the right for each specific case?
Method of processing duck feet
What is a VIC 20 cartridge? A game system I don't know about?
"I only speak the truth"
Karma: null(Mostly affected by an unassigned variable)
Its awful hard to sue for copyright infringement when you don't know where the data originates from, and you can't see who's obtaining it.
Freenet a good fix for crap like this.
1. Are there any VIC 20 games that are actually worth playing, and aren't inferior versions of games available for other formats?
2. Is there a comprehensive list of VIC 20 software (like Cowering's goodtools)?
3. How big would a zip file containing all available software?
You can see where I'm heading with this...
P.S. kids, where are the automated tools to automatically download rom list updates, locate the missing data through various channels (web, news, irc), download, verify and update?
I pretty sure my VIC-20 only has 3k of ram...
Yes, this is about carts, but it made me think of the ubiquitous tape drive. Those things sucked, didn't they? Anyway, has anyone tried to copy those tapes to a cd, then hooked the cd player up to the tape drive port? That would be cool.
I think I'll do that right after I finish strapping the JATO bottle on my Impala.
Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
This actually makes me think of my grandfather's old farm. Don't mark me offtopic yet. Wait for me to tie it back in. Some of my grandfather's farm, as he explains it, was taken and given to a railroad company for a right-of-way. The rules were simple, if that rail line did not handle a certain capacity, then the land reverted to my grandfather's ownership--eminent domain. So, forty or fifty years later, once a quarter the rail company would drive a very small train, very, very slowly over nearly unusable tracks--just to keep it. Unfortunately, the rail company's stall tactics outlived my grandfather.
"Eminent domain is the right of the state to take private property for public use." Eminent Domain DefinedHow does this tie in? Perhaps we are vainly trying to use an old system (copyright) to apply to a new medium (software). I agree that generations long copyrights (ala Disney) are invalid, but the rights should be of sufficient duration to prevent the media giants from outlasting an author's rights to his work. I mean, if I write the "Great American Novel," with a short copyright term (7 to 14 years), a corporation would just refuse publication until I lost rights--and then publish without having to grant royalties. After all, David Brin's The Postman was published in 1986 and the movie The Postman based on the book came out in 1997. If the copyrights were only seven years long--the original length, then he would not have had any say in the movie--or been able to profit. So, overly long "Disney" copyrights are bad for the public, and overly short ones are bad for the author. Still, this does not speak to my point on software and copyrights.
We seem to agree that when a company, or an owner of software, ceases to maintain said software (i.e., Abandonware), that this software should be released to the public domain. Thus, Windows 3.1 would be public domain simply because Microsoft has abandoned it--as would all the VIC-20 games in our current discusion. This does not fit into our copyright model--I doubt this fits anywhere in Intellectual Property law. However, as my early rail tie-in (pardon the pun) suggests, there is presidence elsewhere. So, I propose that software adopt a new model of Intellectual Eminent Domain.
This model should establish reasonable guidelines for when software is deemed abandoned by its original author. When the software is deemed suitably abandoned, then it becomes public domain. Perhaps age of software could reasonably be part of the criteria used, or perhaps a certain number of years since the software was abandoned or last publically supported. What should also be considered valid is when the software's author or company publically ceases to support that code--such as Microsoft and Windows 3.1.
I believe the product being made public, as opposed to allowing a different private party claim absolute ownership, is better for the public for prevents large software houses (e.g. Microsoft) from gobbling up all the abandoned software and then 'maintaining' it to prevent another from invoking eminent domain. It also allows abandonware sites to make available the software; and allows individuals and organizations the chance to maintain or improve the software. I suppose the question then would be, "at what point does maintenance/enhancement of abandoned code constitute a new product protected by IP rights?"
What those who want activist courts fear is rule by the people.
The IDSA has done this to quite a number of sites before this. They are more annoying than the RIAA/MPAA, but much less visible.
Mostly, they go around to sites which specialize in old or obscure games, and request them to take down full versions of the games (even when the games have been out of print for many years or when the developer has been out-of-business for many years). The Underdogs comes to mind as one such site - they're definitely not a warez site, but rather, are advocates of independent game publishers and obscure games (as you can guess, the members of the IDSA don't like this one bit, and chose to attack the site by abusing the copywright laws)
-- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
... M$ will push their mobile phone platform into everyone's ass sooner or later and these games are just waiting to be repackaged in a cool new .NET shrinkwrap (or .99 $ one-click dl ;-) You all know the crowds are holding their breath to play pacman on the cell... sigh! Sad to think I'm only joking while those fools are probably dead serious, eh? Let's play an old game instead: guess how many PowerPoint presentations have been wasted on these scenarios?
Mi domando chi à il mandante di tutte le cazzate che faccio - Altan
Damages estimated at $500,000, for stealing the "equivalent" of 10,000 roms (some of the ROMS were MUCH bigger than the standard 3k.) FUNET will need to provide full payment directly to the RIAA, who will use the money to make sure this doesn't happen in the future.
can request the files be taken down, not the IDSA. If Commodore or whomever doesn't care, then put the files back up. The copyright holder is the only one who can sue for this.
Copyright on Software should be brought down
to 10 years.
Full stop.
the RIAA can go FUCK itself !!!
AND the IDSA pigs know what's left to do, right ?
Yep. Go fuck yourselves too, assholes !!!
When you buy software you are really..
a) buying a copyrighted material
b) buying a patented virtual process
c) buying a trademarked item
d) buying a copyrighted, patented, trademarked license to "use" a piece of software at the sole discretion of the IDSA.
Seriously though, the realy problem is what's making LAWYERS soooo RICH is the loosely defined boundaries that they keep arguing over what software is.
Wait, you're not allowed to use that piece of software to make money, it's a patented process. Oh, patents run out after 10 years? Well, it's not really a process is it? It's technically a copyright that expires after 75 years...Oh, but copyrights are allowed to be copied? Well, then really it's not a copyright but a trademark and you can't infringe on a trademark can you? Oh, trademarks are only 17 years? well..really software is a copyrighted piece of work..Oh but really it's none of those, its a contract between the software company and the user...oh...the users can claim breach of contract if I don't support them? well, really it's a software patent....(and so on..and so on...)
So long as lawyers get away with bouncing around with what software really is, this will ALWAYS keep happening and lawyers will ALWAYS be rich.
Why don't they just take down the games which the ISDA can prove are owned by the companies they represent?
Is the ISDA refusing to identify which titles are in question?
If so, then surely if this went to court, and they told them that the ISDA refused to identify which titles specifically violated the copyrights of the companies the ISDA represents, then the judge would throw the case out.
It's unreasonable to tell someone that among 1000 files they have one file which is violating someone's copyright and that they have to take down ALL the files unless they remove that one... which the copyright owner refuses to identify.
- Name confusion. Often, there are several games with the same name, from different developers. IDSA automatically assumes that when a site offers a 32kB download of, let's say, Wizards and Warriors, they automatically assume that it's the modern game and not an old ZX Spectrum title. I assume that this was the case here as well.
- Fraudulent copyright appropriation. (Sorry, there's a legalese term for it; I just can't remember it right now.) Up to 1985, many games were created by a single person or a small team of people, who kept the copyright, regardless of who published the game. For example, the copyright for the well-known (and loved) Pinball Construction Set (published in 1985 by Electronic Arts) is owned by its designer, Bill Budge, and not Electronic Arts. Yet, I still remember a letter where the IDSA asked a site to remove the game.
Be it as it is, until I see the letter, I can't tell. True, the site is breaking the law, but by the same token, the IDSA isn't much better if they try to shut down a site because of a software that the IDSA members have no copyright for.What really makes me angry is that they are trying to claim copyright on something that has been deemed to not even be a form of speech. This is blasphemy!
--hoch
2*31*37*263
I was recently given a new mobile phone by my phone company as part of a promotion for their new 2.5G service. It has a camera and all the goodies, including Java games. INterestingly there are a lot of the old so-called "abandoned" games that are being ported to Java and sold for these new phones. Therefore the copyright owners are still able to benefit from their creations. However the abandonware sites severaly diminish the market for these conversions. I mean, why pay $5 (Australian - that'd be about $2.50 US) for a copy of Asteroids, Pacman, Space Invaders, Arkanoid, Burger Time, Prnie of Persia etc when you can download them for free form an abandonware site?
These games are still under copyright. It may not be easy to track down the copyright holder in many cases, but just because you cannot buy the game in the stores now, that doesn't mean you can copy it freely. The owners may choose to release new ports and/or updated versions of the games in the future - which they are perfectly entitled to do.
Until the copyright law is changed (as if that will ever happen!) these works are still protected by copyright and without express permission, you cannot copy them.